started this thread in regards to the city's desire to be a "city of choice."

Places locating here have had problems with loitering/panhandling at bus stops..by people who are not getting on the bus. I hope this will not be a problem. It seems to deter customers away. Any thoughts on that issue? It has been a problem in the past.

That's certainly unfortunate.  This is an area that can certainly can appear that way simply due to the fact that sometimes there are not other types of people around to offset that feeling/perception  (kindof like public square).  Hopefully when the street figures out what works and the neighborhood hero's succeed with their plans it will not seem so overwhelmingly this way... (there will be more other types of activities and people to off set this), also as some of the social service agencies in the immediate area relocate to other areas this may dilute this a bit (I believe some are relocating).       

^ Yes, I have thought the same thing.... very good observation...need more to dilute the situation that detracts to the few who are coming to that particular spot. In the long term the offset factor will help, but in the shorter term, the situation can be detracting to get it to the point that we can offset the situation. I live not far from there and it is a great little space for a coffee shop, small boutique of some sort... etc kind of thing. Word is, at least at my block group...Most who live in the neighborhood, stakeholders, would like to keep it respectable...no all night clubs that can get rowdy with unnecessary, excessive loud noise/litter, loitering, or worse, as was the Moda thing years back....

 

I hope this places does well...Like I said, the space is great. I just wish the stop wasn't practically in the doorway.   

Rainbow Darter,

 

Having had to endure my fair share of the former "Spy Bar" way beyond control Sunday night after-parties, I have to agree with you.  I did not purchase (or rent) a residential property anywhere to have to endure things that go beyond what is expected as reasonable.  And having to be woken up (or worst, harassed) by obnoxiously loud, violent and unlawful crowds on any night (including Friday, Saturday or Sunday) at 2-5 AM is just not reasonable.

 

Perhaps the city/neighborhood, if they haven't already, can come up with a list of 3-5 things they would allow in that space and present it to the owner(s).  In the meantime, I hope they hold steady and keep any potential nightclubs out of there.  That is, unless the club is willing to agree to very stringent operating rules, that would probably cap their business potential.

 

 

Rainbow Darter,

 

Having had to endure my fair share of the former "Spy Bar" way beyond control Sunday night after-parties, I have to agree with you. I did not purchase (or rent) a residential property anywhere to have to endure things that go beyond what is expected as reasonable. And having to be woken up (or worst, harassed) by obnoxiously loud, violent and unlawful crowds on any night (including Friday, Saturday or Sunday) at 2-5 AM is just not reasonable.

 

Perhaps the city/neighborhood, if they haven't already, can come up with a list of 3-5 things they would allow in that space and present it to the owner(s). In the meantime, I hope they hold steady and keep any potential nightclubs out of there. That is, unless the club is willing to agree to very stringent operating rules, that would probably cap their business potential.

 

 

Yes, stringent operating rules, like not loitering outside at all hours of the night and having real security or hiring police.  That would be absurd.

the problem is most of these large scale establishments take no legal or ethical responsibility for anything other than moving the people out of the bar. They always  (and I mean ALWAYS) argue that the customers are off the property (if only by a few feet), so it is not their problem anymore. The same goes for places that draw hookers and drug dealers to troll for customers on the surrounding blocks-this is a common problem around strip clubs for example, which I why I opposed Jackson and Cimpermans plan to designate a red light district less then 1000 feet from my home. 

 

In the last several years several people were shot in areas outside the Mirage bar in the flats after closing time on big nights (ie Sun). If I am not mistaken, the community and liquor board had to go after them for some other violation like serving after closing or under age drinking. The customers and their associates were wrecking havoc on the community, with gunfire, fights, load music, cruising, drag racing and so on. Mirage pretty much had the attitude it was not their problem. Meanwhile CPD was not able to patrol the other neighborhoods of Cleveland on certain nights b/c they were too busy watching the chaos in the Flats.  It impacted the entire 2nd district.

So last weekend, my girlfriend and I got soup at the Souper Market, which is currently under construction for remodeling/expansion.  We were eating our soup in the park right at the corner of West 25th and Lorain.  No one was in the park except for us an another guy...

 

A dog comes wandering by.  Nothing fierce or anything, just a medium sized dog.  He trotted by us and the guy sitting on the next bench over without even stopping.

 

Well the guy gets up, comes over to us and starts yelling in our faces, "WHO YOU BE?  WHO YOU BE?"  I told the guy that we were just trying to have lunch.  I stood up and he noticed the dog headed back to his owner over by Great Lakes Brewing Company.  So the guy goes over to the owner and starts yelling at him, too.  We went to finish our lunch in the car.

 

I don't know if the guy was homeless, but he looked to be in pretty bad shape.  He had a big, black winter coat on with duct tape around the middle of it.  I think the dog just spooked him even though the dog didn't do anything -- the guy obviously was not of sound mind.

 

My girlfriend and I live downtown and we understand the dynamics of the various neighborhoods in the Cleveland.  But if that was someone from the suburbs just trying to enjoy a day at the park and eat their lunch, they'd never come back to Cleveland again and they'd go tell all their friends what a dangerous, scary, horrible place the city is.  All because of one crazy person.

 

Sad.

^I have had problems in that park a couple times.  Honestly, and this is no lie, my one daughter who, was 2 at the time, had half a bottle of Vodka dropped on her at that park.  We were sitting on one of the benches while my wife was in the WS Market with the other kids, and a guy sat down next to us who was drinking.  I was going to get up and move in a few seconds b/c I saw he was drinking.  Before I did that, the guy spilled his whole bottle (well, what was left of it) on my daughter.  Then he got mad about it, made a scene, and walked away.  it was very disturbing.  My daughter, of course was going nuts becuase this guy spills "water" all over her and then starts yelling hystarically. I have had other problems there in the past.

I just read the last few posts here. I will say again, I do not have a problem with a respectable club that does not cater to...or draw, the kinds of traffic that eventually leads to the night in and out problems which were described above. But, the bottom line is that if you place a salt lick out for the deer...you attract deer... Thistle seed...you will attract song birds... Bloodworms, you will attract Rainbow Darters (btw..very good 'regarcia!) cheese...you attract a mouse....CRAP...you attract flies. You cater to the poet of limited vocabulary...you reap what you sow.. Point being, you attract what you put out..and if you put out items that are known associates with attracting a certain element, you get what you [pay for.

 

This is not to say ALL people who would attend such a place are ALL going to get involved with trouble, but the history has proven that such a place that was Moda, does and WILL attract a quite a few bad sparks that can lead to causing the fire of trouble. Its all very simple, common sense and academic. Apologists can excuse it all they want, but the end results are undeniable.

 

And Jborger...  You are right....  all it takes is one incident like that to start a bad image and that's really sad... But the goings on at that other place were far from one crazy person and one or a few incidents.

 

Bars who excuse, pass the buck... their social/ethical responsibilities for what happens a mere foot over the 'line' are in denial. They are indeed a part of the problem and need to exercise some social responsibility, as a neighbor in the community,  just as anyone else would who say...  invites someone over for dinner, a party. If those guests are frequently invited over and keep acting like idiots in and out of the house... Yes, they are personally responsible, but legally, the home owner is setting themselves up for a potential civil suit from neighbors. I have sued someone in the past for this scenario and have won. You are responsible for the behavior of guests on your property as well as the individual acting up is.  The fact that these trouble makers are far enough off the property to constitute the bar taking some responsibility--eventhough the trouble makers spent all night in the bar getting drunk..well, there is where the difficulty comes in.

 

But I have a suggestion, let's try this... Lets open up a classy dinner club that limits alcohol.... but offers a paid RSVP'd dinner and a dance 20's to 40's style big band/jazz/swing...ages 25 to 55....where you get all decked out in time period clothing and.... I'll make a thousand dollar bet that the crowd that such a place would attract will not cause the kinds of problems that such places like Moda attracted, even if just a few. It would instead be a crowd that is looking for something nostalgic to do, a diverse one younger and older......something different...and no, I don't think we'd have to worry about Al Capone showing up as anything more than just someone dressing up like him. I think they'll leave the real guns at home.

 

There ya go....set something up that is a bit more mature and classy for a wide age range. Invite The Squirrel Nut Zippers to play and the local N.E. Ohio swing band.. "The Top Notes",  to play.

 

There you will have a venue that pays tribute to a great era we all romanticize today. Might be the best thing to do with the place. Oh, and please...don't be the first person to tell me that such an era didn't have its trouble makers! Duh... I'm smart enough to realize that, but its not the point.

And if you place a post about safety in Ohio City....you attract long and boring responses.  I don't care if I get banned it was worth it.