I understand that central cities is the focus of your statistics, and on paper Cleveland obviously looks terrible...but if the neighborhoods, architectural quality, (somewhat good) shopping and the demographics (most importantly) of the directly bordering municipalities of Cleveland Hts and Shaker Hts were instead within the Cleveland City limits, this would be a whole different story.

And this is because, and I will continue to contend this ad nauseum, of the far-away placement of University Circle. At least... at the very least... if this placement of the cultural stuff / colleges / museums (i.e. Univ Circle) was a couple more miles closer to the CBD, there would be a much better chance that these tree-lined walkable neighborhoods would've evolved within Cleveland City limits.

And from these discussions...it's these "Shadysides" and "Squirrel Hills" that seem to make or break a central city. Definitely when it comes to young professionals.

In Cleveland, it's Cleveland Hts and Shaker that reap these benefits.

I believe that the distance between Public Square and the intersection of Euclid Ave. & East Blvd. (the closest thing to a "center" of UC) is approaching 5 miles, if not exactly. Traveling on Euclid Ave. of course.

If someone from out-of-town were to take some people's advice (and this is the advice of many Clevelanders ,btw) and get on the Shoreway at E.9th St...get off at MLK Dr...travel through Rockefeller Park southward and find Euclid Ave...then were talking a HUGE commute and many miles.

 

Imagine being someone just moving here and experiencing that.

You'd want to live in the Heights as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

…and this is something Cincinnati and Louisville share with Pittsburgh, that there are “Squirrl Hills” and “Shadysides” within the city limits.

 

true, and the college educated population backs it up. The issue in Cleveland I suspect has something to do with it having one of the least "educated" populations of any central city in America. It actually ranks lower than Toledo, despite a Detroit economy. Of course this is probably an effect of the economy, not the other way around. The devil is in college grads, so the devil is in those details:

 

Population 25 years and older, bachelor's degree or higher

Pittsburgh: 32.4%

Columbus: 31.5%

Cincinnati: 28.9%

Louisville: 21.3%

Buffalo: 20.9%

Toledo: 17.2%

Cleveland: 12.8%

Detroit: 11.3%

 

And I'm not spending time looking at metro areas, because frankly that's not the issue. The issue is that some central cities are keeping far more of their college grads than others. Simply put, brain drain is not a regional-wide issue. It's a specific issue in places like Cleveland, Detroit, Toledo, etc.

 

The national average for college grads these days is about 27% of the population. As you can see, Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati are doing better than the national average, so no brain drain whatsoever. Of course a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma, so:

 

Population 25 years and older, graduate or professional degree

Pittsburgh: 16.2%

Cincinnati: 11.2%

Columbus: 10.5%

Buffalo: 9.2%

Louisville: 8.7%

Toledo: 5.8%

Cleveland: 4.9%

Detroit: 4.3%

 

So I guess like those tourism videos, "Hey, at least we're not Detroit!" Barely...

 

And look at f$&king Buffalo, perhaps America's fastest-shrinking city, and a city that's had a sh!tty economy since the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway (1959 for those of you who don't know your Great Lakes history)! As a Clevelander or Toledoan, I wouldn't be happy until our numbers match Buffalo. If Buffalo is beating us, we're in a lot of trouble...

 

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=16000US3916000&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US39%7C16000US3977000&_street=&_county=Cleveland&_cityTown=Cleveland&_state=04000US39&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=ACS_2008_3YR_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null&reg=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=

 

 

You're baiting us with numbers.  Those numbers do not represent the entire metropolitan area.

 

This thread should be closed as that Las Vegas article was previously discussed here.

So then who is working in all those office buildings Downtown, supporting the art museum, going out to eat on East 4th St, buying tickets to the Cavs, etc?

 

I know that philanthropist Jeptha Wade's donation of acreage east of the CBD has been called a non-plan on this thread...but to me it was planned...and the planning of University Circle 5 miles away from the CBD is one of the worst things that could've happened.

Even to those of you who think this just "evolved" this way by happenstance...it was unfortunate then that it did so.

And we're living with the consequences today.

 

I love Cleveland...lived here all my life...but I like Pittsburgh because of the closer-placement of Oakland and all the benefits thereof.

And probably so would many recent graduates /professionals.

 

How hard is this to see? 

^You just answered you own question.

Suburban folk.

 

 

 

And the truth is people in places like Cleveland Heights and Lakewood (excellent areas, don't get me wrong) are not making Cleveland vibrant.

 

I guess they are making Cleveland vibrant

 

 

I doubt the people who built University Circle were thinking:

 

"This is going to be so f$&king sweet. We'll take the educated money class away from Downtown and they'll live in Shaker Heights. After that we can start tearing down our urban streets. Then we can start building faster streets and highways to cater to our badass automobiles. Then we can build ugly apartment projects for poor people to help concentrate crime and poverty in one place. Then everyone will start leaving Cleveland when their jobs get outsourced to China. Then everyone will think they have to go to college since that's the only way they'll land a job. Trust me, this is genius."

 

That's not entirely implausible.

Do you realize that a good number of residents on Euclid Ave.'s "Millionaire's Row" and the adjacent Upper Prospect had in their wills , that upon their death , their homes (gorgeous, stunning, unlike-anything-else mansions that cost thousands (millions?) to build) were to be RAZED. And their children had already left for the Heights.

Why? Because they couldn't bear the thought that it may someday be a rooming house.

These are many of the people who were the benefactors of and built University Circle.

 

Cleveland was such a quickly-expanding blue collar town, that the thought was : move out to the tree-lined streets of the Heights and let the ever-encroaching Warehouses take the land my Edwardian mansion sits on. I'll tear it down for them !

 

That's why there's only like 3 mansions left on Euclid Ave. and only a smattering of places in Midtown / Upper Prospect.

^Depends on your definition of vibrant. And let's face it, we're talking small, specific places, not the large majority of the city.

 

I'll say this, when is the last time you set foot in Cleveland?  When is the last time you've spent any significant time in Cleveland to take in what it has to offer?  Do that instead of trying to manipulate a few damn numbers!

 

So then who is working in all those office buildings Downtown, supporting the art museum, going out to eat on East 4th St, buying tickets to the Cavs, etc?

 

Suburban folk. The point is we need the living population more than anything else. That's what leads to vibrant neighborhoods. What cities like Cleveland (and Detroit and Toledo to varying degrees) have done is maintain world class institutions in the central city, which is an extremely good thing and means there is still hope. At the same time, there's also the "pie in the taxpayer sky" thing which basically put stadiums and arenas on the backs of taxpayers who were promised unrealistic results. Most other cities are guilty of this kind of crap too, and I think it's been at the expense of the citizens.

 

There have been planning mistakes in Cleveland, but I'd blame what's happened in more recent years as opposed to blaming University Circle. The demolition train is underway because of modern thinking. I doubt the people who built University Circle were thinking:

 

"This is going to be so f$&king sweet. We'll take the educated money class away from Downtown and they'll live in Shaker Heights. After that we can start tearing down our urban streets. Then we can start building faster streets and highways to cater to our badass automobiles. Then we can build ugly apartment projects for poor people to help concentrate crime and poverty in one place. Then everyone will start leaving Cleveland when their jobs get outsourced to China. Then everyone will think they have to go to college since that's the only way they'll land a job. Trust me, this is genius."

 

This has been said for decades.  The Shaker lakes still stand and one thing you fail to realize is downtown Cleveland/the Central Business district has never had a residential downtown.  Until the 80's the closest residential neighborhoods were Ohio City, Tremont, Sterling-Payne and the Eastern Central Neighborhoods.

 

Again, this thread should be shut down.

 

 

I know that philanthropist Jeptha Wade's donation of acreage east of the CBD has been called a non-plan on this thread...but to me it was planned...and the planning of University Circle 5 miles away from the CBD is one of the worst things that could've happened.

Even to those of you who think this just "evolved" this way by happenstance...it was unfortunate then that it did so.

And we're living with the consequences today.

 

I love Cleveland...lived here all my life...but I like Pittsburgh because of the closer-placement of Oakland and all the benefits thereof.

And probably so would many recent graduates /professionals.

 

How hard is this to see? 

 

I don't see it at all.  Just because other cities have done this doesn't mean that Cleveland should have.  When the University are was being developed Eastern Hough was an upper middle class neighborhood; Glenville was a upscale neighborhood; Little Italy, Forest Hills & Fairfax were stable middle class  neighborhoods.  East Cleveland was an upscale suburb.  The people in those neighborhoods were those who supported the arts.  Hence the area was developed within a short walk /travel time from each of those neighborhoods.

 

Today, Eastern Hough has started a return, Western Glenville is largely undisturbed, Forest Hills, Little Italy/Murray hill retain the same charm.  The problem the southern portion of Fairfax.

 

How hard is that to see and understand??

 

...one thing you fail to realize is downtown Cleveland/the Central Business district has never had a residential downtown...Eastern Hough was an upper middle class neighborhood; Glenville was a upscale neighborhood; 

 

 

Yes it did. Euclid Ave.and Upper prospect not to mention all the other places around the eastern edge of downtown from E. 9th to where Tri-C is (i think that's what you said yesterday?).

 

And these neighborhoods like Glenville and E. Hough do not have enough of their best houses left.

Or they are too far gone for restoration.

It cannot compare to a lot of other cities' housing stock.

I am more familiar with Detroit and Pittsburgh than Cleveland, but I think Cleveland and Pittsburgh are in better positions because they both have better universities, hospitals, and cultural stuff in the city proper. They also both have relatively good public transportation including rail. 

 

That University of Michigan moved out of Detroit in 1837 was a central cause of the city's fall. Aside from the direct economic benefits, all those Michigan alums don't have the emotional connection they would have had that could have reduced the fall. No disrespect to Wayne State, but it does not have the same impact that a top-20 world institution with a law school and huge medical school and hospital would have had.

 

Agreed, Pittsburgh has the advantage over Cleveland in that its midtown area is close and topography helped keep much of those people in close proximity, sustaining a healthy area. Unfortunately their light rail subway is being expanded right now toward the stadiums instead of toward Oakland.  University Circle is about 5-6 miles from downtown Cleveland and the rail link is not ideal.  Case Western's and Cleveland Clinc's people don't live in that area in the same concentration. 

 

The lesson to Las Vegas: get some real sh*t instead of these casinos. Much of Las Vegas' recent rise is due to cheap airfares, and as airline travel gets more expensive and more of a hassle, so goes its fortunes. 

I'll say this, when is the last time you set foot in Cleveland?  When is the last time you've spent any significant time in Cleveland to take in what it has to offer?  Do that instead of trying to manipulate a few damn numbers!

 

Let's just say the the stadium was still called "The Jake." And those "damn numbers" are pretty damn important. It's called journalism. Where do you think the mainstream media gets fuel for their fire? You take away the fuel, you take away the critics.

 

Perhaps what's most disturbing about this thread is that everyone is ignoring Cleveland State and bringing up University Circle with its precious Case Western Reserve. Well, I've got some more of those "damn numbers":

 

Total Enrollment

Cleveland State: about 16,000

Case Western Reserve: about 10,000

 

And the beauty of this is that Cleveland State is Downtown! If just half of those college kids live around the school, that would have a huge impact.

 

Granted, Cleveland State is smaller than OSU, UC, Pitt, UT, or Akron, and they don't have D1-A football (sadly somewhat the mark of a major public school), but 16,000 people is 16,000 people. That's a huge market of young people in the pursuit of a degree.

 

You're going to tell ME about media and journalism?  ::) 

 

You haven't been to the city in a while, since you decided not to give a direct answer.

 

Again, you're manipulating numbers instead of shooting the straight facts.  For example, of the 16k students are enrolled at CSU, what is the breakdown between full-time and part-time?  CSU is a commuter school and I believe a very small fraction of the full-time students live downtown.

You're going to tell ME about media and journalism?

 

So when was the last time you were a journalist? :D

July

Why do you concern yourself with Cleveland so much, if you hate it so ?

This type of thread (Cleveland vs. somebody) is just your type of fodder.

I guess it's so that you can strategically throw insults and regurgitate statistics that we already know about...

Those of us that live here, live this stuff everyday.

 

The fact is, is that it's no secret that Cleveland is in rough shape.

Our only peer (and my second-favorite city) is Detroit.

We both have our work cut out for us.

 

*****NOTE: I wrote this before you edited your prior remark. That last thing I read was how you "hardly think the slums have gentrified..." Maybe you felt the need to temper your remarks******

 

 

 

...And on a lighter note

 

Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh

 

Who wins?  Pittsburgh

Why?  They have a downtown Chipotle

So does Cincinnati :lol:

 

I'm with MTS on this one, this thread should just be shut down.

American Apartheid" is standard urban sociology fare, but the problem I have with that argument is what wingnuts like to do with it...a lot them miss the whole point of the book and others like it while just doing the whole "blame the minority" thing

 

I don’t have a background in sociology so the book was quite a revelation, especially the statistical things and that little game theory example they do to demonstrate how segregation concentrates poverty.  I think the Brits have a better term for this: social exclusion.  It seems rather than blame minorities blame economic structural adjustment combined with social exclusion based on race. 

 

The issue in the Cleveland case is the large number of blacks and their concentration in extensive neighborhoods, vs the situation in Pittsburgh, where the ghetto is apparently fragmented and smaller due to a smaller black population.  So Pittsburgh seems “less ghetto”, since it’s both whiter and the ghettos are not as visible.

 

Another example is Sacramento, where segregation is not as strong as in, say, Ohio, so one doesn’t have the concentrated poverty and social ills in inner city minority ghettos to the extent one see’s in Ohio.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh about the comment that UM's departure from Detroit in 1837 caused the city's slide...HUH!?!?! UM was nothing in 1837, and might have been nothing if it had remained in Detroit. Wayne State might have been built in Ann Arbor, or somewhere else, and become the major state university. UMich thrived on its suburban proximity to Detroit, but not being right in the center. Come to think of it, I can't think of another major public-state university in the middle of a large, industrial city...uChicago is private, but is also smaller than UMich...Besides, if UMich had been in Detroit between 1900-1950, when the city was filthy and polluted, it would not have been as popular as it became in A2. Universities are part of their environment; you can't just transplant them.

universities collapse under their unpaid loans, manufacturing moves back to America, fresh water shortages become rampant, and Cleveland booms like it's 1910. Pittsburgh's college grads find themselves out of work and turn into CHUDS. They swim down the Ohio River and start feeding on people in Cincinnati.

 

Happy Halloween!

 

lol.  You're nuts dude.

I remember we went to Pittsburgh last year and everyone downtown looked straight out of a coal mine. It smelled like sulfur everywhere. I felt dirty just walking around the city.  I think I washed my face about every ten minutes.

siiigh. how many times do we have to say this? just because cleveland doesnt have much of any of its visible 'otr' left anymore doesnt mean it's eastside wasnt once incredibly dense.

 

little hollywood in hough still had 30k per sq mile in the 1960's!

this is/was lexington ave in the e70's

 

^ unfortunately, as you can see that is a photo identifying teardowns....!

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2047.0.html

 

i think people get too wrapped up in the football rivalry and steel plants, otherwise physically speaking pitts & clev arent really good cities to compare to each other. cinci vs pitts makes more sense in every other way, they are kissing cousins....in more ways than one! baa dump! ha. but seriously, a clev vs buffalo or detroit or toronto would thread might make more sense, the topograpghy is roughly similar and they better illustrate roads not traveled that the city still might take - stay stagnant, deteriorate or boom.

 

 

 

 

That's only three blocks. It isn't density that makes OTR great, it's the quality urban design and ornate, well proportioned buildings. Visually, it's very intense.