I found this interesting.

 

http://www.arbitron.com/downloads/redbook_fa08.pdf

 

Some markets seems much smaller than it is and others seems much larger than it is. Eg. Orlando, Fla 3.7 million

 

 

Yeah, Nielsen counts the Cincinnati DMA at about 34th.  We are very close to Columbus.

I wonder why the top 100 list combines Cleveland with Akron for 3.2 mill, but not Cincy with Dayton which would have been 2.9 mill?  I would think that Dayton is as connected to Cincy as Akron is to Cleveland... and both are about equidistant from their bigger counterparts, no?

 

 

Are the part of the same media market?  That's what this is measuring.

I wonder why the top 100 list combines Cleveland with Akron for 3.2 mill, but not Cincy with Dayton which would have been 2.9 mill? I would think that Dayton is as connected to Cincy as Akron is to Cleveland... and both are about equidistant from their bigger counterparts, no?

 

 

 

Dayton is way less connected to Cincinnati than Akron is to Cleveland.  Dayton (well, the "Miami Valley") has always been independent from Cincinnati.  Most people in Dayton don't know anything about Cincinnati and vice-versa.

I wonder why the top 100 list combines Cleveland with Akron for 3.2 mill, but not Cincy with Dayton which would have been 2.9 mill?  I would think that Dayton is as connected to Cincy as Akron is to Cleveland... and both are about equidistant from their bigger counterparts, no?

 

 

 

Because that is the Nielsen ratings and it share reports are very difficult.  and different for tv, radio, print & internet.

 

Each category uses different information to determine "market share".

 

Some information comes from the box and some from viewers/readers that fill out journals. that information is submitted at different time and with handwritten information, the chance for "boo-boos" is great.

 

 

I wonder why the top 100 list combines Cleveland with Akron for 3.2 mill, but not Cincy with Dayton which would have been 2.9 mill?  I would think that Dayton is as connected to Cincy as Akron is to Cleveland... and both are about equidistant from their bigger counterparts, no?

 

Very simple, Akron lost its TV stations, at least partly due to it being within range of Cleveland's. Cleveland news covers Akron news.

Not knowing why this happened, I don't believe that is the entire case.  Since part of the equation is the number of TV sets in the area.

 

for instance, Phoenix is the 5/6 largerst metro area and cleveland is 12/13 (based on which list you look at) yet Cleveland's tv market share is 12 and phoenix's is 18.

 

There are a ton of variables and it give me an ef'n headache.

For Cincy/Dayton - the answer is Butler County, while the distances are roughly equivalent. There is another MSA (Hamilton, Fairfield, Middletown) in between and until the 15 years Dayton was focused east toward Springfield and north toward Miami County. Cincinnati had a more NKY focus than north. Though back when markets and anti-trust were real issues in media, there was a lot of trading around as ClearChannel grew because there was the expectation that the markets would be merged in the near future. Obviously it is slowly happening - see Miami's NPR station being swallowed by Cincy Public Radio, while Cincinnati Public TV is now a part of Dayton Public TV.

Ohio Top 100 Television Markets (national rank, followed by population 12+, then television homes)

 

17. Cleveland: 3,268,300 / 1,524,930

32. Columbus: 1,961,100 / 925,840

34. Cincinnati: 1,960,300 / 915,570

64. Dayton: 1,014,800 / 483,790

73. Toledo: 904,600 / 425,890

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly what sources are you looking at?

Basically, once channel access begins to occur you will get a Cincy/Dayton DMA.

^That'll never happen.  It will more like a Baltimore and Washington DC relationship (two separate markets, one CSA).

Ohio Top 100 Television Markets (national rank, followed by population 12+, then television homes)

 

17. Cleveland: 3,268,300 / 1,524,930

32. Columbus: 1,961,100 / 925,840

34. Cincinnati: 1,960,300 / 915,570

64. Dayton: 1,014,800 / 483,790

73. Toledo: 904,600 / 425,890

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

Last page of the link I believe

Ohio Top 100 Television Markets (national rank, followed by population 12+, then television homes)

 

17. Cleveland: 3,268,300 / 1,524,930

32. Columbus: 1,961,100 / 925,840

34. Cincinnati: 1,960,300 / 915,570

64. Dayton: 1,014,800 / 483,790

73. Toledo: 904,600 / 425,890

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

Last page of the link I believe

 

You're looking at ONE source, many times you have to look at multiples sources.  Which is why I said earlier, cleveland is listed as number 12/13, plus the variables.

^Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

The research in my office.  I do this for a living.  ;)

Growing up Akron only had one channel, channel 23 was an ABC affeliate that covered both Akron and Canton. I don't remember Canton having any of the big four. As was mentioned above the fact that Cleveland picks up Akron as well as Canton makes it such a large market.

 

As far as distance between the cities, I can get from downtown Akron  to downtown Cleveland in about 35 minutes and I drive the speed limit, so they're pretty close. What is the driving time between Dayton and Cincy?

City limit to city limit is about 30 mins. Downtown to downtown is about 45 mins.

^Mapquest tells me that Cleveland to Akron is 39 miles and Cincy to Dayton is 49 miles.

You probably want to take Lake Erie into consideration, and how it likely influences tower placement compared to landlocked circular metros.

One thing that's strange. Since they say Cincinnati/Dayton is not one TV market,  if the Bengals don't sale out tomorrow it will be blacked out in Dayton too. They are treating Dayton as the same market that Cincinnati is in.

Is Canton part of the Cleveland media market?

Growing up Akron only had one channel, channel 23 was an ABC affeliate that covered both Akron and Canton. I don't remember Canton having any of the big four. As was mentioned above the fact that Cleveland picks up Akron as well as Canton makes it such a large market.

 

I remember that too before cable....there was Cleveland 3(NBC),5(ABC), and 8(CBS) and later 19(FOX) that you could easily get from the Akron Market and was the norm(8 an 19 later switched with some coup by FOX).  Akron Channel 23 was ABC and I only remember my Dad watching it for the Akron news...there was no reason to watch it instead of channel 5...it was a stepchild not a major channel.  Canton had a channel 61 or 67 I think, that was like channel 43(Lorain) and just played old re-runs(Yeah, Benny Hill!).  The Cleveland TV channels were always the major players.  Even my friend from Youngstown(Niles) said he grew up watching 3, 5 & 8 (which is weird because they were closer to Pittsburgh).

 

At the time, the markets were different for retail, so I remember a lot of Cleveland area stores that weren't in Akron that I had never seen as a child being advertised like grocery stores and discount stores.  May Dept Stores used to advertise all the time "Sale this Saturday at May Company and O'Neils" because they owned both stores in the 2 markets.  The markets were different but so close.

 

The strange thing is I think I watched PBS stuff on an Akron Channel, but I can't remember for the life of me what it was....WVIZ maybe....but that was even Cleveland!!

Growing up near Ytown, it was Channel 33, Fox 17/62, Channel 27, and another I can't remember. I remember that we could get Cleveland Channels, but my family never watched them because they weren't local. We couldn't get any Pittsburgh channels that I recall.

Does Akron still have Channel 55?

I grew up in Massillon/Canton, and remember the days of 3, 5, and 8 very well.  23 out of Akron was good because the reception was always so much better.  The Akron/Canton/Youngstown PBS station is 45/49.  They used to be WNEO/WEAO, but now they just call themselves "Western Reserve."  Canton's WOAC 67 is still around, but, last time I was home, they were just an infomercial network or something like that.

 

Now that I'm in Youngstown, at least with cable, I get no stations out of Cleveland.  I miss Dick Goddard's passion for the weather.  All of the news anchors around here seem to be so much more "amateur-ish" than what I remember from Cleveland.

 

When I lived in Austintown, (western suburb of Youngstown) I had Armstrong Cable.  And, they carried 2 PBS stations.  They had the Akron/Canton/Youngstown PBS station, and they had WQED out of Pittsburgh.  But, living in Youngstown and having Warner Cable, I only get the Akron/Canton/Youngstown PBS station.

Even my friend from Youngstown(Niles) said he grew up watching 3, 5 & 8 (which is weird because they were closer to Pittsburgh).

Niles being just NW of Youngstown is actually closer to Cleveland than Pittsburgh. Growing up on the south side of Youngstown we could get all the Pittsburgh channels quite clear. We always had to watch the Browns games in the "snow" because the Cleveland channels didn't come in that well and the local channels mostly showed the Steelers. :-(

 

Does Akron still have Channel 55?

 

Yes, they are located in Cuyahoga Falls. You can see their "tower" from many miles away.

 

Is Canton part of the Cleveland media market?

 

As far as I know, yes. Which really bolsters the Cleveland Market as the Akron/Canton area has well over a million people.

 

Growing up near Ytown, it was Channel 33, Fox 17/62, Channel 27, and another I can't remember. I remember that we could get Cleveland Channels, but my family never watched them because they weren't local. We couldn't get any Pittsburgh channels that I recall.

 

I can remember getting some Youngstown Channels at night, I remember watching them and seeing the local high school highlights. I also can remember getting Pittsburghs hip hop radio station when I would go kick at Mt. Union in Alliance.

Living between Cincy and Dayton with only an antennae TV (Monroe), we got both station sets quite clearly with our antennae pointed toward Cincy.

 

My parents watched Cincy news, I watched Dayton news, and since I spent a lot of time in and around Dayton as a kid, I never really liked to watch Cincy news because I had no clue where the stuff they were talking about was. With Dayton news, I always knew what they were talking about in general, and it seemed to cover more Butler/Warren while Cincy focused on NKY and east of the city, which I knew little to nothing about.

 

Now I know better, but Channel 2 is still my fav. :) (yes, sometimes I still watch "the local trash" at 5)

wasn't there something that historically the cle tv transmitters had to broadcast n-s vs e-w? thats what originally gave akron good cle tv coverage (and lake erie too - ha). might that be why they are still so closely tied together even in the cable era?

 

  There are rules having to do with international boundaries. I don't know if that plays into the Cleveland situation or not.

Periodically on the Cleveland news shows call in response segments you'd see responses from towns in Canada that you've never heard of.  So maybe that explains that a bit, heh.

 

  There are rules having to do with international boundaries. I don't know if that plays into the Cleveland situation or not.

 

 

there are now, but i don't think international boundaries had much to do with broadcasting in the early days, if anything any rules that existed were broken the other way around, ie., mexican radio per wiki:

 

high-wattage unregulated AM Mexican radio stations (among them XERF, XEG, and XERB) which, starting circa the 1930s, were received practically around the globe. Some of the stations boasted a million watts, which was 20 times higher than allowed in the US.

 

Sitting just south of the Rio Grande, these stations avoided American broadcast and trade regulations, and became the medium of favor for countless quacks spouting political rants, selling homemade pharmaceuticals pre-FDA, self-published manifestos, and may have even been the starting point for Televangelism as we know it. Wolfman Jack started his career in that market, spinning an eclectic mix of genres.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Radio#Cover_versions

 

closer to home, i remember the am radio station cklw in windsor was 50k watts and used to be very popular around coastal ohio --- i'm not sure how internationally legal that station was either.

 

anyway, i just figured the cle-akr broadcast tie that still exists today may have its roots in cle tv's n-s tv transmitter past.

 

 

^ My parents listened to the Big 8 CKLW almost as much as Cleveland stations when I was a kid.

The Big 8 mp3

CKLW The Motor City mp3

 

WJR from Detroit also comes in clearly in Lorain (too bad I can't catch the Red Wings broadcasts on it anymore).  I was more of an 89X (CIMX) fan as a young adult, but now it's frequently interfered with by WJCU's signal.

 

For TV, I remember turning the roof antenna to catch Browns games on Toledo stations when they were blacked out in Cleveland.  None of the neighbor kids had a rotating antenna, so our basement was Browns fan central.

^ wow awesome technology -- haha.

 

they used to always say radio and tv waves traveled much better over water than land.

 

i remember one day when i was a kid we got canadian tv clear as a bell. several stations. it only happened once and it was quite memorable. i dont think it was windsor, i dontremember where it was from, but it was very strange. i think there was even an article in the paper about it.

 

 

In Toledo, you often got better reception from Windsor stations than from some Toledo stations and certainly from Detroit/Ann Arbor stations. 89X out of Windsor was big @ least in the late 90s.

The most amazing radio phenomenon to me is that I can often pick up WTAM 1100 (Indians games) from a car radio when driving on the East Coast at night, north of NYC (as far north as VT or NH).  On a single drive from NYC to Boston two summers ago, I could pick up home baseball broadcasts from NYC and Boston (duh) but also Baltimore, Philly, Cleveland, and Toronto.  Maybe others too- but I remember those distinctly.

700 wlw goes to 36 states at night. It used to be 500,000 watts at one time.

The most amazing radio phenomenon to me is that I can often pick up WTAM 1100 (Indians games) from a car radio when driving on the East Coast at night, north of NYC (as far north as VT or NH).  On a single drive from NYC to Boston two summers ago, I could pick up home baseball broadcasts from NYC and Boston (duh) but also Baltimore, Philly, Cleveland, and Toronto.  Maybe others too- but I remember those distinctly.

 

WTAM is a clear channel station so you can hear it at night in most of the easter half of the US

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTAM

The most amazing radio phenomenon to me is that I can often pick up WTAM 1100 (Indians games) from a car radio when driving on the East Coast at night, north of NYC (as far north as VT or NH). On a single drive from NYC to Boston two summers ago, I could pick up home baseball broadcasts from NYC and Boston (duh) but also Baltimore, Philly, Cleveland, and Toronto. Maybe others too- but I remember those distinctly.

 

WTAM is a clear channel station so you can hear it at night in most of the easter half of the US

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTAM

 

You can get WTAM at least as far south as Washington DC at night too. But only when travelling on letter streets, not numbers.

89X at its peak was actually the number one alternative rock station in Toledo!

 

I used to get 89X in Cleveland, esp after John Carroll went off the air around 11pm.  89X was the best!

 

WAPS in Akron was also one of THE best alternative stations by far.  Ran by the Akron Public Schools at the time, they had music that you would never hear anywhere else, all commercial free, and the DJ's were HS students (that were pretty bad actually).  You could win passes to 9 of clubs or Aquillon sooooo easy....and 12" records.

 

None of the neighbor kids had a rotating antenna, so our basement was Browns fan central

 

We had that exact same gadget!  We used to turn it on and run outside to watch the antenna turn

700 WLW would come in clear after dark in the car in Newport News, Virginia.

^Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

The research in my office.  I do this for a living.  ;)

 

If you do research for a living, then you know the results of statistical research are different depending on who conducts the polling.  Media outlets buy their research many times based on who has the better numbers.

You can get WTAM as far south as Charlotte NC at nights as I've listened to Cavs games when down there.

^Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

The research in my office.  I do this for a living.  ;)

 

If you do research for a living, then you know the results of statistical research are different depending on who conducts the polling.  Media outlets buy their research many times based on who has the better numbers.

 

I never said that I did research for a living.  Don't make assumptions  ;)

 

I'm well aware how stats are compiled.

Sorry my bad--by implying you had access to resear

^Exactly what sources are you looking at?

 

The research in my office.  I do this for a living.  ;)

 

If you do research for a living, then you know the results of statistical research are different depending on who conducts the polling.  Media outlets buy their research many times based on who has the better numbers.

 

I never said that I did research for a living.  Don't make assumptions  ;)

 

I'm well aware how stats are compiled.

 

 

Sorry my bad--by indicating you had research in your office it implied that you were somehow professionally involved with market research.  I stand corrected. 

 

Now how about spatulas or deep fryers?  ;)