it's hard not to wonder why this is happening culturally primarily in the AA community, or at least what appears to be primarily the AA community.

 

genuine anger

 

Exactly.  A friend of mine from some years ago in college was from Kenya.  He lived in East Cleveland and I remember him being shocked when he would tell people with emotion "you can't believe the anger, you don't make eye contact with people".

 

To me it's unbelievable that people (like shs96, not to pick on you b/c I don't think you're a bad person, I just think you don't have a very good understanding of the complexity of racial problems) think that hundreds of years of racism, a cycle of poverty, and the disillusionment of an entire culture can just be wiped out in no time.  It's easy to come up with solutions for others when you don't have to live their problems every day of your life.

I don't think SHS or anyone here has offered any solutions.  We're too busy wallowing in the problems of the past and the present to think about the future.

the only threat was your perception.

 

That's going a little too far. I don't doubt that she was riding the train with a bunch of A-holes who were giving her dirty looks. It happens.

 

But R&R, I must say congratulations on so far avoiding "White Thug".... he is out there and multiplying by the day.

 

I've been spending a lot of time in Boston recently.  Even though the city is about 1/2 non-white, the demographics of the junkie, punk teens and other "undesirable" populations are strikingly whiter than in Cleveland or NYC.  Makes me wonder if the old stereotypes of ill-behaving Irish died out too early in this country.  At the very least, reminds me that those stereotypes were just as "based on fact" as today's stereotypes about racial minorities.

"Do not confuse "African-American culture" and "Inner-City Culture." In African-American culture, you are taught to respect everyone and extend kindness to anyone (goes along with the whole Christianity thing). Inner-City culture just happens to have many African-Americans, Latinos, and yes, even poor Whites."

 

I suppose, but I've seen lots of poor whites on the train, and they are not listening to loud music or staring threateningly at me. Too, I've obviously met and encountered lots of AAs who are kind, respectful, normal people, but it's hard not to wonder why this is happening culturally primarily in the AA community, or at least what appears to be primarily the AA community.

 

Because there are a lot of African-Americans living in inner-cities (I don't mean to say "duh" but you get the idea).  Urban music or "rap/hip hop" has correlation with playing loud (see 1980's Bass Miami) and thus, you'll hear loud music on trains to drown out the sounds.  And trust me when I say, I get stares at me when I go to West "By God" Virginia or Eastern Kentucky and I'm the only pepper in that salt shaker.  It goes both ways unfortunately and both are racist in nature.

 

And if you want to know why it evolved into INNER-CITY African-American cities, there is a great book by KRS-One detaling the evolution from southern blacks moving into northern cities.

At her? For doing what, precisely?

 

it's hard not to wonder why this is happening culturally primarily in the AA community, or at least what appears to be primarily the AA community.

 

genuine anger

 

Bingo. A friend of mine from some years ago in college was from Kenya. He lived in East Cleveland and I remember him being shocked when he would tell people "you can't believe the anger, you don't make eye contact with people".

 

To me it's unbelievable that people (like shs96, not to pick on you b/c I don't think you're a bad person, I just think you don't have a very good understanding of the complexity of racial problems) think that hundreds of years of racism, a cycle of poverty, and the disillusionment of an entire culture can just be wiped out in no time. It's easy to come up with solutions for others when you don't have to live their problems every day of your life.

 

What he said. 

 

This anger isn't directed at anyone in particular, but at history and at the nature of things.  Occasionally it does get released upon individuals, because you can't glare or yell at history and you can't rob it either. 

 

I get these looks too.  I'm one of very few white people on my block.  I can get upset about it, because I never owned a slave in my life, but then again I didn't grow up in the hood and I have an all-white office job to go to.  As rough as things are for me right now, they could be so much worse.

I've seen white thugs, but, they appear to be aping AA's in speech and manner? You know, talking like gangsters, using a "black" dialect, etc. We used to have "white thugs" in my high school, but they were their own brand of thug (we called them grits, but they used to be called "hoods" generally speaking), not trying to look and sound like AAs. So it's hard not to think that this is a desired/accepted culture in AA communities, and that whites are imitating it for some reason, maybe this is the cool way to be now?

 

Again, please do not lump all African-Americans with the same "speech/lingo/jive turkey talk/ghettoisms/Ebonics."  It is a rather large community.  Stick with "inner-city" or "urban" talk, and that gets over the whole "potentially racist post" thing.

it's hard not to wonder why this is happening culturally primarily in the AA community, or at least what appears to be primarily the AA community.

 

genuine anger

 

At her? For doing what, precisely?

 

Not at her.  At life.  At their predicament.  If you haven't noticed, there's a pretty big black on black crime problem.

And if you want to know why it evolved into INNER-CITY African-American cities, there is a great book by KRS-One detaling the evolution from southern blacks moving into northern cities.

 

Factory jobs which subsequently went away.  What did we expect to happen when decent-paying factory jobs that required no education were dangled like a carrot in front of hundreds of thousands of Southern black people which weren't allowed to have an education, then those jobs all went away in a short time span?

I've seen white thugs, but, they appear to be aping AA's in speech and manner? You know, talking like gangsters, using a "black" dialect, etc. We used to have "white thugs" in my high school, but they were their own brand of thug (we called them grits, but they used to be called "hoods" generally speaking), not trying to look and sound like AAs. So it's hard not to think that this is a desired/accepted culture in AA communities, and that whites are imitating it for some reason, maybe this is the cool way to be now?

 

Again, please do not lump all African-Americans with the same "speech/lingo/jive turkey talk/ghettoisms/Ebonics." It is a rather large community. Stick with "inner-city" or "urban" talk, and that gets over the whole "potentially racist post" thing.

 

Message received.  At the risk of further ire, I thought "inner city" was a veiled way to say "black" though, so how is that better?

Dictionary.com defines inner city as:

–noun an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups.

 

^This is a pretty good  illustration of why stereotypes are unfair even when they are "based on fact."

Does anyone ever consider the possibility that the looks you recieve are a response to your own posture?  For example, if you grip your purse when a black guy walks by, you can expect a dirty look.  Consciously and subconciously, people use and pick up on body language more than one might think. 

 

This is a bit off topic but what is with all the Irish-bashing on this website lately???

It's in this thread and some of the photo threads.

WTF?  :?

I am offended as someone who is Irish.

I guess the "Irish-need-not-apply" attitude still exists....

Maybe for the larger segment of the white community but as somebody that is actually black, lumping all blacks as "urban" or "inner-city" doesn't make sense.

 

This is a bit off topic but what is with all the Irish-bashing on this website lately???

It's in this thread and some of the photo threads.

WTF? :?

I am offended as someone who is Irish.

I guess the "Irish-need-not-apply" attitude still exists....

 

It's just that the Irish immigrants and the issues they faced are probably the best example we have to prove the environment over nature argument.  It's nothing racist or offensive.

I've seen white thugs, but, they appear to be aping AA's in speech and manner?  You know, talking like gangsters, using a "black" dialect, etc.  We used to have "white thugs" in my high school, but they were their own brand of thug (we called them grits, but they used to be called "hoods" generally speaking), not trying to look and sound like AAs.  So it's hard not to think that this is a desired/accepted culture in AA communities, and that whites are imitating it for some reason, maybe this is the cool way to be now?

 

So white thugs are only imitating black people?

 

Isn't AAVE primarily based on the southern white dialect?

 

Maybe black thugs were just imitating southern white people.

 

I know this is all ridiculous, but no more so than your post.

 

This is a bit off topic but what is with all the Irish-bashing on this website lately???

It's in this thread and some of the photo threads.

WTF?  :?

I am offended as someone who is Irish.

I guess the "Irish-need-not-apply" attitude still exists....

 

I'm not trying to be anti Irish.  Some of my best friends are Irish ;)  In a conversation about contemporary stereotypes, I think it's interesting to look at old ones and wonder why they developed.

Does anyone ever consider the possibility that the looks you recieve are a response to your own posture?  For example, if you grip your purse when a black guy walks by, you can expect a dirty look.  Consciously and subconciously, people use and pick up on body language more than one might think. 

 

I don't do that, or lock my doors when I drive by a black person, or cross the street when I see one coming. Come ON.  My body posture these days is largely one of exhausted and not much else.  I certainly don't act like I'm guarding my bags or something, jeez.

Does anyone ever consider the possibility that the looks you recieve are a response to your own posture? For example, if you grip your purse when a black guy walks by, you can expect a dirty look. Consciously and subconciously, people use and pick up on body language more than one might think.

 

I don't do that, or lock my doors when I drive by a black person, or cross the street when I see one coming. Come ON. My body posture these days is largely one of exhausted and not much else. I certainly don't act like I'm guarding my bags or something, jeez.

 

Sorry for the assumptions, but judging from your earlier posts it just seems like you might be that type of person.  Surely, you can acknowledge that there are many, many white people who do act that way.

I never saw anything that in her earlier posts that indicated how she acts.  It seems to me that you read about a certain situation and made a set of assumptions about her behavior based on how you think many white people behave in that situation. 

 

What kind of a question is that?

I don't know what's in anybody's heart until I know them. And I'm not going to extrapolate anything from what she has said, since being labelled "racist" is not a thing to take lightly.

 

I do think though that there has been some sexism, if I dare say so, in the treatment of RnR and her concerns. Just sayin'

 

I never saw anything that in her earlier posts that indicated how she acts. It seems to me that you read about a certain situation and made a set of assumptions about her behavior based on how you think many white people behave in that situation.

 

You mean both white and black people can be racist!  Shocking revelation!

 

The problem is that (especially well off) white people have a lot more to gain from racism keeping the status quo than black people.  It doesn't make either side's racism OK, though (and I don't think anybody is arguing that).

Wow, this got dicey in a hurry. 

 

My observation is that I haven't seen anyone have to defend the generalized behavior of "women" or "the Irish" in this thread.  Nobody has stated or implied that if women or the Irish were to step up their game, other types of people wouldn't hold so much against them.  Nobody has stated or implied that it's OK to hold these generalizations against random women or random Irish because statistics back them up, or because women or the Irish give off a mysterious air of hostility and/or filth.

As long as we've established that white racism is worse, I guess we're back to normal then. :wink:

 

But my actual point was that a lot of the discussion of white racism is based on perceptions (not just black people's perceptions) of whites which are also racist in origin, and of course, vice-versa.  Not a shocking revelation either, I know.  But have there been any on this thread yet?  Or are we just rehashing the same old lines?

I never saw anything that in her earlier posts that indicated how she acts. It seems to me that you read about a certain situation and made a set of assumptions about her behavior based on how you think many white people behave in that situation.

 

And that's why I said I'm "sorry" for making the assumptions big guy.  But also - although sparked by her comments about the train ride - the post was more of a general comment in line with the entire conversation.  It was just a comment I tossed out there.  Food for thought.  Something I have personally witnessed on NUMEROUS occasions throughout my life.  You and she took it as a personal attack, which it was not.

As long as we've established that white racism is worse, I guess we're back to normal then. :wink:

 

I didn't say it was worse.  I said it has a larger effect on others due to the social stratification.  That doesn't make the individual actions worse, but it does mean the effects are worse.

I didn't take it as a personal attack.  I was just saying.  Food for thought.

I didn't take it as a personal attack. I was just saying. Food for thought.

 

And I think you ought to treat what I said as food for thought as well.

I've seen white thugs, but, they appear to be aping AA's in speech and manner?  You know, talking like gangsters, using a "black" dialect, etc.  We used to have "white thugs" in my high school, but they were their own brand of thug (we called them grits, but they used to be called "hoods" generally speaking), not trying to look and sound like AAs.  So it's hard not to think that this is a desired/accepted culture in AA communities, and that whites are imitating it for some reason, maybe this is the cool way to be now?

the only threat was your perception.

 

That's going a little too far.  I don't doubt that she was riding the train with a bunch of A-holes who were giving her dirty looks.  It happens.

 

But R&R, I must say congratulations on so far avoiding "White Thug".... he is out there and multiplying by the day.

How exactly does a person look at you threateningly? was he showing his teeth? cmon

I'm not saying that women or Irish have to defend anything. It's clear that there have been a fair number of allusions to drunkenness and pugnacious behavior of the Irish in this thread and one of the photo threads. I'm a grown guy though I can handle it. I felt the need to point it out though.

With respect to women...I'm saying that a bunch of guys are , for the most part, deriding the remarks of a woman for how she may feel on a train, especially with a small child... or in other scenarios that she gave.

By default, we can not totally understand exactly what she feels because almost all of us are guys.

It could be that other women may think differently. But we're talking about RnR's coments here.

.

the only threat was your perception.

 

That's going a little too far.  I don't doubt that she was riding the train with a bunch of A-holes who were giving her dirty looks.  It happens.

 

But R&R, I must say congratulations on so far avoiding "White Thug".... he is out there and multiplying by the day.

 

I've been spending a lot of time in Boston recently.  Even though the city is about 1/2 non-white, the demographics of the junkie, punk teens and other "undesirable" populations are strikingly whiter than in Cleveland or NYC.  Makes me wonder if the old stereotypes of ill-behaving Irish died out too early in this country.  At the very least, reminds me that those stereotypes were just as "based on fact" as today's stereotypes about racial minorities.

actually, isn't South Boston ("Southie") the most notorious "white ghetto" in the country? At least it was thirty years ago when Boston tried forced busing. I remember all the racial unrest that took place there. I think it's more gentrified today. Negative stereotypes about the Irish in Boston have less to do with their ethnic profile than the fact they're poorer and, like lots of groups who grow up alienated/isolated in that kind of urban environment, became mixed up in the drug culture over the last generation. (Also, back in the 70's the Victorian Village area of Columbus was sort of an Applachian ghetto. Nobody wanted to live there and housing was cheap.)

With respect to women...I'm saying that a bunch of guys are , for the most part, deriding the remarks of a woman for how she may feel on a train, especially with a small child... or in other scenarios that she gave.

By default, we can not totally understand exactly what she feels because almost all of us are guys.

It could be that other women may think differently.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  We aren't proposing that racism is OK for women with children on a train, are we?  Look, I admit to being somewhat racist, and I believe that's true for every person of every race.  We can't help it, we're wired for it. 

 

But attempting to justify it, or to turn it from a wrong into useful tool of some sort... I can't get behind that.  It's wrong.  When you feel yourself doing it, that doesn't mean you're a bad person.  But if you're not a bad person, you'll presumably wanna make yourself stop doing it.  You feel the prejudice well up inside you and you either reject it, and try to learn from it, or you roll with it and try to rationalize it.  We're each faced with these challenges pretty regularly, so even if we fail here or there, we always get more chances.

 

BTW, sometimes the prejudice is correct, and that dude of a different race with the shifty eye is in fact a sex offender who litters.  Does that justify the prejudice?  Nope.  We always need to be on the lookout for shifty-eyed littering sex offenders.  I'm just saying that racism does little to help us identify these people on an individual basis, and considering what racism has done to our world, it's worth standing against even when it seems most prudent.

On a lighter note....

I guess I won't be doing a photo thread on the St. Patrick's Day parade in a couple months. LOL

 

sorry, Back on topic...

actually, isn't South Boston ("Southie") the most notorious "white ghetto" in the country? At least it was thirty years ago when Boston tried forced busing. I remember all the racial unrest that took place there. I think it's more gentrified today. Negative stereotypes about the Irish in Boston have less to do with their ethnic profile than the fact they're poorer and, like lots of groups who grow up alienated/isolated in that kind of urban environment, became mixed up in the drug culture over the last generation. (Also, back in the 70's the Victorian Village area of Columbus was sort of an Applachian ghetto. Nobody wanted to live there and housing was cheap.)

 

South Boston is partially gentrified, but there is still a large white underclass there that is overwhelmingly of Irish descent.  I think Irish stereotypes are pretty much dead everywhere now (for good reason), but in Boston there is still a general towny stereotype (and townies are mostly of Irish descent).

 

My sense is that many Americans probably think that anti-Irish discrimination and stereotypes from US history were somehow more arbitrary or undeserved than current stereotypes about blacks or latinos.  That current stereotypes are different because they are more "based in fact."  I could be wrong about that, but I've certainly heard both sides insinuated if not said outright.  Some sociologists have certainly drawn parallels between 19th century Irish and mid-late 20th century urban blacks, both being the penniless surfs who migrated to northern US urban areas (or their recent descendants).

Boy, what happens when I am gone at the dentist!  I appreciate those who have defended me/my comments and pointed out that you don't know what it's like to be a woman.  Or, I dare say, to be glared at threateningly, or lasciviously.  If you don't know how someone does that, that's because you're not a woman and haven't been the subject of such looks ON A DAILY BASIS.  Has anyone ever been masturbating on the rapid while they were staring at you?  I doubt it.  You don't know what it's like to feel like someone is following you because they're waiting til you get to a dark corner so they can drag you in the alley way and rape you, or follow you to your car and try to grab your bags, or follow you home so they can remember where you live and come back later.  As a woman it is something you always have to be on guard for, or looking for, it's part of "street smarts" as a female.  It does not make me a racist to be nervous because people are looking at me in a way that makes me uncomfortable.  I was just on the health line both ways and everyone on both buses was black, and I didn't feel the least bit threatened or uncomfortable. On the way back, I glanced at an open seat and a girl actually moved her bag so I could sit down, without me even asking.  The situation on the rapid yesterday was light years away from that experience.

 

I seriously do not think I am a racist.  I have dated 2 different black guys.  I've also dated Arabs, Jewish men, Brits, Latino men, Slovak guys, Italians, Irish, etc.  One of my best friends for several years was a black girl, and I briefly had a black girlfriend as well. 

I don't think SHS or anyone here has offered any solutions.  We're too busy wallowing in the problems of the past and the present to think about the future.

 

Solutions have to come from within the community.  Those who are outside the community can offer help and guidence...maybe outsiders can do more than they currently do, I don't know...but ultimately each individual within the culture has to subscribe to want to change it.  It's just like any other behavioral change...has to start with that person first.

The "community" is America, not "Black America."  Last time I checked, the US government (local, state, and federal) was in charge of welfare, public housing, education, etc.  I don't buy that "they can help themselves" mantra one bit.  It takes a village to help a child, it takes a city to help the poor, it takes a metropolitan area to help a city, it takes us all to help ourselves.

it's hard not to wonder why this is happening culturally primarily in the AA community, or at least what appears to be primarily the AA community.

 

genuine anger

 

Exactly.  A friend of mine from some years ago in college was from Kenya.  He lived in East Cleveland and I remember him being shocked when he would tell people with emotion "you can't believe the anger, you don't make eye contact with people".

 

To me it's unbelievable that people (like shs96, not to pick on you b/c I don't think you're a bad person, I just think you don't have a very good understanding of the complexity of racial problems) think that hundreds of years of racism, a cycle of poverty, and the disillusionment of an entire culture can just be wiped out in no time.  It's easy to come up with solutions for others when you don't have to live their problems every day of your life.

 

Well, maybe I'm not communicating well...maybe you're stereotyping me b/c of where I'm from without really knowing, well, anything about me. 

 

I'm not saying it should or will be just wiped out...but obviously a large portion of the AA community does not adhere to this "inner city culture"...they managed to live within their own culture but as a part of a civil society.

 

I mean, to be blunt, people have choices.  They can get over it and move on or they can stew and continue to be part of the problem - even if they weren't the root of the problem to begin with. 

R&R... it's all good.  Remember though how I repsonded (a while back) when you were talking about how strangers at the gym need to avert their eyes when you pass?  Because their simple act of looking at you was bothersome and deserved your scorn?  That thread had nothing to do with racism. 

 

Which is more hurtful, their desirous glance or your "you have no right to look at me" return glance?  If they happen to be of another race, one historically forbidden to gaze upon white women, might that scorn not bite them a little deeper?  In that sense, a completely non-racist person might still, unintentionally, racially offend another.

 

I'm guessing if some stranger is giving you desirous eyes, in public like that, they're probably lonely in a way that could never be described.  How much does it hurt you when they look?  How much does it hurt them when it's obvious to them that the only way they can please you is to disappear?  I'm not suggesting you encourage these people or date them (what would Mr. R&R think), I'm suggesting you employ additional empathy when reacting to their offensive gaze. ***Unless they're masturbating... that's messed up***

 

I realize this all sounds pretty personal... but I don't think you're a racist.  I think from what you've posted, over time, that you're a little less comfortable than the average person when it comes to having strangers look at you.  I think in the black men / white women on a train scenario, there may be a racial layer involved that doesn't come from either party, that comes instead from the ugliness of the past.

The "community" is America, not "Black America." Last time I checked, the US government (local, state, and federal) was in charge of welfare, public housing, education, etc. I don't buy that "they can help themselves" mantra one bit. It takes a village to help a child, it takes a city to help the poor, it takes a metropolitan area to help a city, it takes us all to help ourselves.

 

Behavioral/cultural change has to be wanted first; you can't force it on people.  Individuals need to take accountability for their own actions first.

Individuals, certainly.  Community, not in the sense of "black people."  Change (re: improve) inner-city living first, then watch the "culture" change.

And FYI, change begins with resources.  There are many people (black and white) out there, helping folks but if they don't have the amount of resources it takes to help "change the inner-city culture," then it's a difficult climb.

The "community" is America, not "Black America." Last time I checked, the US government (local, state, and federal) was in charge of welfare, public housing, education, etc. I don't buy that "they can help themselves" mantra one bit. It takes a village to help a child, it takes a city to help the poor, it takes a metropolitan area to help a city, it takes us all to help ourselves.

 

Behavioral/cultural change has to be wanted first; you can't force it on people. Individuals need to take accountability for their own actions first.

 

It's interesting how black people are held accountable for the "black Community's problems", but white people are not held accountable for the "white community's problems", such as in Appalachia or the KKK or southern hate crimes. I think it's important to realize that no black individual is any more responsible for the actions of others who may be bad apples than any individual white person.

  Has anyone ever been masturbating on the rapid while they were staring at you?  I doubt it. 

Actually, this happened to me once on the subway (just to clarify, I was not the perpetrator). Then again, that was when I was young--a long time ago. And this is New York...lol This is not to make light of the sort of things that happen to women on the subway. It's awful. Although with cellphone cameras they're fighting back. I don't know if anyone heard the story a couple of years ago about the woman who took a picture of some guy who exposed himself on the subway. His picture was in the tabloids and on tv! I can't remember if he was caught, but I'm sure his "loved ones" all recognized him. Back on topic...

R&R... it's all good. Remember though how I repsonded (a while back) when you were talking about how strangers at the gym need to avert their eyes when you pass? Because their simple act of looking at you was bothersome and deserved your scorn? That thread had nothing to do with racism.

 

Which is more hurtful, their desirous glance or your "you have no right to look at me" return glance? If they happen to be of another race, one historically forbidden to gaze upon white women, might that scorn not bite them a little deeper? In that sense, a completely non-racist person might still, unintentionally, racially offend another.

 

I'm guessing if some stranger is giving you desirous eyes, in public like that, they're probably lonely in a way that could never be described. How much does it hurt you when they look? How much does it hurt them when it's obvious to them that the only way they can please you is to disappear? I'm not suggesting you date all these people (what would Mr. R&R think), I'm suggesting you employ additional empathy when reacting to their offensive gaze.

 

I realize this all sounds pretty personal... but I don't think you're a racist. I think from what you've posted, over time, that you're a little less comfortable than the average person when it comes to having strangers look at you. I think in the black men / white women on a train scenario, there may be a racial layer involved that doesn't come from either party, that comes instead from the ugliness of the past.

 

Well, that's interesting, to be sure, but LONELY is not what people are feeling when they look at you with lust.  Lust has a different look than someone looking at you like, "gee, she looks nice/pretty, I wonder if she's single?  or thinks I'm cute?"  I can tell the difference, honestly.  I can't necessarily always tell the difference between a hateful glare (because I'm white?) and a threatening glare (I am a danger to you) because they're pretty similar looks.  Sometimes very lusty looks can look dangerous too, so there's a blurry line there as well, but largely, guys at the gym are not looking at me like they hate me.  There is a difference between a glare and a stare.

 

And honestly, I seriously do not give people an automatic withering look just because they stare at me.  I IGNORE THEM.  It is only when someone is being really, really obvious and annoying, such as walking continually back and forth past machines I am working out on in an attempt to force me to make eye contact with them so I can see that they are staring at me, that I give them a withering look. I know you're there, quit staring and quit trying to make me look at you.

 

As to how much it hurts when you're looked at like that, well, all I can tell you is, you don't know what it's like.  I mean, I don't exactly cover up in a burka when going to the gym, but neither do I wear anything low cut or deliberately enticing, but it is really not nice to be stared at this way.  Try to imagine someone staring at your mother, or daughter, or sister like they are mentally whacking off while looking you up and down, it's sick. It is not lonely.  It doesn't "hurt" me physically, but it is really annoying, and it's the reason gyms like Curves and other all-women gyms were born because they don't want men staring at them and making them feel uncomfortable while they work out.  It's really unfair to have to form your own chain of gyms because some men can't keep from looking and acting like hungry vultures circling a carcass. 

 

But this has nothing to do with racism, really.

The "community" is America, not "Black America." Last time I checked, the US government (local, state, and federal) was in charge of welfare, public housing, education, etc. I don't buy that "they can help themselves" mantra one bit. It takes a village to help a child, it takes a city to help the poor, it takes a metropolitan area to help a city, it takes us all to help ourselves.

 

Behavioral/cultural change has to be wanted first; you can't force it on people. Individuals need to take accountability for their own actions first.

 

It's interesting how black people are held accountable for the "black Community's problems", but white people are not held accountable for the "white community's problems", such as in Appalachia or the KKK or southern hate crimes. I think it's important to realize that no black individual is any more responsible for the actions of others who may be bad apples than any individual white person.

 

Bingo.  It's community (re: American) problems.  "Inner-city," Appalachian, southern ignorance, etc are American problems we ALL have to tackle.  It is a HUGE pet peeve of mine when I hear (white) people say, "they need to fix their own problems...it starts at home!"  Well gee, where does the home mortgage being paid go to?  The magical Angela Davis CEO loan at the NAACP Bank?

 

This is a bit off topic but what is with all the Irish-bashing on this website lately???

It's in this thread and some of the photo threads.

WTF?  :?

I am offended as someone who is Irish.

I guess the "Irish-need-not-apply" attitude still exists....

 

I knew I should have used European American organization.  Reality is I'm part Irish and was raised in an Irish Catholic church.  I don't carry over what I hear at the club with all Irishmen.  Just that there are cloisters of racism and they're more a part of my life than I'm okay with.

  Has anyone ever been masturbating on the rapid while they were staring at you?  I doubt it. 

Actually, this happened to me once on the subway (just to clarify, I was not the perpetrator). Then again, that was when I was young--a long time ago. And this is New York...lol

 

LOL!  I like NY.  Nobody cares what you look like, nobody is staring at you, nobody gives a shit. They just go about their businsess and don't pay any attention to you.  I remember one of my first visits there in college and discovering how wonderfully freeing it was to be able to sing and dance going down the street and not have people stare at you.  I changed my entire outfit in central park and nobody blinked an eye, I don't think anyone even noticed.  It was great.

mentally whacking off [snip] looking and acting like hungry vultures circling a carcass 

 

I agree, definitely not a racial thing, but... as a man who's never once looked at you, I'm a little unnerved by the... wow... sorry to have brought that up. 

  Has anyone ever been masturbating on the rapid while they were staring at you?  I doubt it. 

Actually, this happened to me once on the subway (just to clarify, I was not the perpetrator). Then again, that was when I was young--a long time ago. And this is New York...lol

 

LOL!  I like NY.  Nobody cares what you look like, nobody is staring at you, nobody gives a sh!t. They just go about their businsess and don't pay any attention to you.  I remember one of my first visits there in college and discovering how wonderfully freeing it was to be able to sing and dance going down the street and not have people stare at you.  I changed my entire outfit in central park and nobody blinked an eye, I don't think anyone even noticed.  It was great.

yeah, it's amazing how many people don't notice anything here, even celebrities (then again, so many people here are so self-centered they think they're celebrities). It's not like you spot them every day even in NY, but I always notice them when other people don't. Maybe it's just a matter of still being a "hick from Ohio." I'm going to have to get a camera and start an "Amateur Paparazzi Thread."