The thing with Burfict is he is legitimately one of the top 3 inside linebackers in the game.  You take away his edge, and he may lose his ability to play at top tier.  You got to live or die by it.  He makes some incredible plays, and some incredibly dumb plays.  On that knockout hit, I am sure he was just going through the motions and wasn't even thinking and forgot to realize he is 245 lbs. of muscle, then downhill from there.

 

Bullshit, the guy is dirty.  Has been fined multiple times for it, and now will be suspended.  He intended to lay out the receiver, no other way to put it.  And he is no way a top 3 ILB.  How many yards rushing did Pittsburgh end up with?  He isn't even top ten

 

Sorry, I got to call BS on you here.  The one year he played the full year, 2013, he was second team All-Pro.  There were 4 Inside Linebackers on the All-Pro teams, and he was one of them.  He is a top talent.  He makes plays in the backfield and in coverage on read plays, he sacks QB's, he does it all.  Here is the list for you to see it:

 

http://www.pro32.ap.org/abqjournal/article/2013-all-pro-team

 

Secondly, if he wanted to completely knock out Antonio Brown, he could have easily done that.  Yeah it was dirty and he shouldn't have done it, I'm not condoning it, but in my mind that was simply a play where he wasn't even thinking, not so much that he was looking to knock him out.  You can tell he wasn't 100% when he hit him.  If you look at this video here, you can see he puts his full body into it, laying out 6'4", 260 lb. Tight End Maxx Williams.  He definitely didn't do this to Antonio Brown:

 

http://www.totalprosports.com/2016/01/10/vontaze-burfict-headshot-maxx-williams-video/

 

 

If you're gonna hang your hat on how good he was two seasons ago or that he "didn't go all-in" to knock out Antonio Brown, I guess you've made your point. 

 

Fact is, Steelers had 167 yds rushing and he's gonna get rung up hard by the Ginger Hammer for this latest hit and his past record.

 

I'm not hanging my hat on how good he was two years ago, I am saying it's a fact that he is a top ILB in the NFL this year, that is a fact I think any NFL coach and player that played against him would tell you.  He was injured pretty much all of last year and most of this year, and he still dominated games defensively.  Just look at all the plays he made against the Steelers.  How many inside LB'ers make a diving interception, spin off a block to plant 280 lb. Ben Roethlisberger, and also make plays all over the back field on non-blitzing plays, defeating blocks all along the way.  Luke Kuechely does it and maybe a few others, maybe.

 

No matter how good you are, it's the NFL and teams can scheme around you.  All of those rushing yards were a product of the Bengals collapsing on the zone blocking scheme, not Vontaze Burfict missing plays.  They were out their top safety most of their game, their 2nd best cornerback was hurt most of their game, and their #3 LB was injured and hardly played.  I can guarantee that when teams line up to play the Bengals, they are scheming off of Vontaze Burfict and Geno Atkins, no doubt.

 

I am not saying he isn't dirty, all I am saying is that if he really wanted to let loose on Antonio Brown, he really could have done that.  He should have pulled completely up and out of there, but he ran through with his shoulder, thus the penalty which was warranted and a complete bonehead mistake by him.  Shazier also should have been flagged for planting the crown of his helmet in Gio's chin, but that wasn't called for some reason even though it's the definition of spearing.

 

 

 

 

If you're gonna hang your hat on how good he was two seasons ago or that he "didn't go all-in" to knock out Antonio Brown, I guess you've made your point.  Every ILB in the league can cover the pass, stuff the run & rush the passer.  Ever watch Clay Matthews?  How about Shazier?  I'd put both ahead of him for starters...  I could pick a half dozen more from the other playoff teams

 

Fact is, Steelers had 167 yds rushing and he's gonna get rung up hard by the Ginger Hammer for this latest hit and his past record. 

 

Edit:  here's a list of top ILB's.  Burfict didn't even get honorable mention

http://www.scout.com/nfl/story/1560040-nfl-s-top-5-ilbs-mlbs-for-2015

 

Sorry if I quoted this wrong:

 

First off, Clay Matthews isn't even an Inside Linebacker, he is an outside linebacker / rush end.  Secondly, we are talking semantics now.  I have watched a lot of NFL, played linebacker in college (not D-3 or NAIA or D2), and the only inside linebacker I would take skill wise over Burfict is Luke Kuechly or maybe Navorro Bowman. 

 

Secondly, he played in a total of 15 games over the last two seasons because of a knee injury, and I don't even know who that guy is on Scout that posted that. When he was fully healthy last, heading into the 2014 season, he was rated the #52 best player in the NFL by his colleagues.  When he is full speed and healthy, he is a top talent at MLB, in my opinion top 3 in the NFL.

 

Lastly, I am not saying he isn't a dirty player and I am not condoning that at all, so I am not arguing that.  Just trying to say that skill wise, he is top 3 in the NFL at his position.  Over and out.

 

 

Poor attendance will be coming. This will set the stage for Brown leaving the city.

 

If they keep playing at the level they have, and have poor attendance, yes it could.

 

I don't see that happening.  Mike Brown idolizes his father, who LOVED Ohio.  I can't imagine him considering a move unless the future of the team itself were at stake.  I've always thought the threat of relocation back in the 90s was an empty one.  Mike Brown might have used the hysteria in the wake of the Browns' move to Baltimore to his advantage, but he isn't Art Modell.

 

 

Art Modell had virtually no choice but to move The Browns because he was put in full nelson by Cleveland's other pro teams and his minority shareholders.  His ownership of Cleveland Stadium, which had been a huge source of income due to the Indians lease, suddenly became an albatross when they moved out.  The Bengals ownership was sharing a municipally-owned facility -- a completely different situation.  Mike Brown was able to use the incredibly generous terms of the PBS lease to buy out his minority shareholders in 2011 with a giant $100+ million check.  The Brown family now owns every Bengals share except one.  That's rare in pro sports.  The Brown family will not be motivated to move just to fend of minority shareholders when the PBS lease expires, since there aren't any anymore.   

 

 

 

Art Modell had virtually no choice but to move The Browns because he was put in full nelson by Cleveland's other pro teams and his minority shareholders.  His ownership of Cleveland Stadium, which had been a huge source of income due to the Indians lease, suddenly became an albatross when they moved out.  The Bengals ownership was sharing a municipally-owned facility -- a completely different situation.  Mike Brown was able to use the incredibly generous terms of the PBS lease to buy out his minority shareholders in 2011 with a giant $100+ million check.  The Brown family now owns every Bengals share except one.  That's rare in pro sports.  The Brown family will not be motivated to move just to fend of minority shareholders when the PBS lease expires, since there aren't any anymore.   

/quote]

 

This is very, very far from the truth. It's the narrative the modell family, certain apologists, and some of Baltimore put forth.  For one thing, the city owned Municipal Stadium, modell was the managing tenant. That sounds like the Brown family's role as well.  There's other things, they aren't on topic

 

I don't believe Brown would move arbitrarily (though he would certainly have been willing to go to Cleveland had Cincinnati not come through).  But if he puts a playoff caliber quality team on the field and attendance sucks, that might trigger it.

Poor attendance will be coming. This will set the stage for Brown leaving the city.

 

If they keep playing at the level they have, and have poor attendance, yes it could.

 

Poor attendance will be coming. This will set the stage for Brown leaving the city.

 

If they keep playing at the level they have, and have poor attendance, yes it could.

 

And where, pray tell, would they go?

And where, pray tell, would they go?

 

Covington, KY.

Poor attendance will be coming. This will set the stage for Brown leaving the city.

 

If they keep playing at the level they have, and have poor attendance, yes it could.

 

Poor attendance will be coming. This will set the stage for Brown leaving the city.

 

If they keep playing at the level they have, and have poor attendance, yes it could.

 

And where, pray tell, would they go?

 

Depends on if LA is still available.  I think it's unlikely, but I'm strongly suggesting you not boycott your team.

3 teams want LA.  Talk of Bengals relo is not rooted in reality.  Attendance is not as important as everybody thinks now that the blackout rule is further relaxed.

The Bengals aren't going anywhere, at least for another 20-30 years when they demand a Paul Brown Stadium replacement. But by that point it might be paid off, so people will probably vote to build a new one.

 

Next year will be the first year since I was preschool aged that I won't watch Bengals games, though. I'll listen to the radio while getting other tasks and chores done. It's no fault of the Bengals, just disgust with the hypocrisy of the NFL, classlessness of the fans, and the joke that officiating has become over the last 3 seasons. Listening to Dan Hoard and Dave Lapham has become more interesting than watching the games.

Listening to Dan Hoard and Dave Lapham has become more interesting than watching the games.

 

 

I couldn't handle it after witnessing the fumble on TV so I went out in my car outside the bar and listened.  They were in total, total exasperated shock.  I think they were on the verge of tears during radio silence that lasted for what seemed like a minute but was probably only 10 seconds.  Then after the game Lapham dutifully took his little mic into the locker room and somehow got a few of the guys to talk.  But it was just totally unbelievable.  I didn't go back in the bar, I just drove away. 

Any team would want Burfict on their team. People seem to forgot the endless cheap shots the Steelers dish out. Just heard Pittsburgh gave Porter a game ball. And Antonio Brown was prancing around the locker room around after the game. It will be fun watching Big Ben having to throw the ball underhanded against Denver.

Any team would want Burfict on their team. People seem to forgot the endless cheap shots the Steelers dish out. Just heard Pittsburgh gave Porter a game ball. And Antonio Brown was prancing around the locker room around after the game. It will be fun watching Big Ben having to throw the ball underhanded against Denver.

 

The crazy thing is that Burfict hadn't intercepted the ball with 1:30 on the clock, The Bengals probably would have won. 

Any team would want Burfict on their team.

 

And he should have been flagged for running that ball all thh way across the field and up the tunnel...

I'm against releasing Burfict just cause I don't want to play against him! Could you imagine if he was released and picked up by the Steelers? Worse case scenario!

 

Football is a random game and we're close.  I think we just try again next year honestly.

The Bengals aren't going anywhere, at least for another 20-30 years when they demand a Paul Brown Stadium replacement. But by that point it might be paid off, so people will probably vote to build a new one.

 

Next year will be the first year since I was preschool aged that I won't watch Bengals games, though. I'll listen to the radio while getting other tasks and chores done. It's no fault of the Bengals, just disgust with the hypocrisy of the NFL, classlessness of the fans, and the joke that officiating has become over the last 3 seasons. Listening to Dan Hoard and Dave Lapham has become more interesting than watching the games.

Well said.  NFL teams need to start teaching people how to make good hard clean tackles again too.  I remember when guys used to bleed on the field after being hit.  Was part of the game.  Now they just run into each other like bubble ball.  Half the time, the guy that makes the hit dosent even fall to the ground anymore.  If you made guys extend their arms and wrap people up like they used too, half the defensive players wouldn't even be "good" football players.

My TV broke during the game. Must have been a sign.

I am still in disbelief that Shazier did not get called for PF - he obviously dropped his helmet and knocked Bernard out.  And that jack-ass Porter should have been flagged before anyone had a chance to engage him.  He should not have been on the field, and the rules in both situations are pretty clear.  The Bengals made mistakes and got flagged, but it does not feel like the calls were made evenly.

Dave Lapham said the referee who flagged Vontez and Pacman is the brother of a Pittsburgh Steelers Assistant Coach

Looking back at Hill's run, it looks like he thought he was going to bust through that hole or at least get 2-5 more yards -- maybe a first down -- if he could get another stride in there.  He didn't have to do that...I know it's not in the DNA of a running back to just go down like a scrambling QB, but we literally would have won that game if he had laid off the gas and settled for a 4-yard run with both arms protecting the ball. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_225zwqSc8

^ Lapham made a reference to this very thing today.  He said something to the effect that you need to know when to go down and sometimes ball security is more important than an extra yard or two.

Dave Lapham said the referee who flagged Vontez and Pacman is the brother of a Pittsburgh Steelers Assistant Coach

 

That would be a big deal.  Shades of my old high school league where a ref that threw a key flag was the brother of a booster club President.  David Boston's dad was a ref but they made sure he didn't call his kid's games.

 

Except these are professionals.  Full ti......oh yeah, they are part timers.  Which is ridiculous.

 

The NFL's refs have been a joke for much longer than three years.  Jeff Triplette is a senior guy now.  He basically ended one player's career with a carelessly thrown flag one week, and almost did the same thing a week later.

 

 

Dave Lapham said the referee who flagged Vontez and Pacman is the brother of a Pittsburgh Steelers Assistant Coach

 

^ WTF? is this true?

The one thing missing from this game?  Shadow Hare. 

 

 

Burfict suspended for 3 games next year. 

If Burfict is suspended 3 games, Ryan Shazier deserves the same suspension for his hit against Bernard.

 

 

If Burfict is suspended 3 games, Ryan Shazier deserves the same suspension for his hit against Bernard.

 

 

 

No, he shouldn't.  The 3 game suspension is due to prior infractions, not just the 1 hit.  How many times has Shazier been fined this season???  Was Gio a defenseless receiver?  No, he was a ball carrier...

Burfict suspended for 3 games next year.

 

Thanks yeah, all Bengals fans knew that about 36 hours ago.

What's the issue with the hit by Shazier?  That he led with the crown?

 

The Burfict hit is probably dirty because he sees that Brown does not have the ball and then purposefully puts his shoulder into Brown's helmet when he was in a defenseless position.  Bernard at least had the ball.  Also, it is difficult to say whether Shazier was really trying to spear him as opposed to getting his helmet on the side Bernard was moving toward.  I'd have to see another angle to be sure.  But you can see Bernard dip down just a bit, which caused the helmet-to-helmet collision.  Those bang-bang plays are very hard to judge.

If Burfict is suspended 3 games, Ryan Shazier deserves the same suspension for his hit against Bernard.

 

 

 

No, he shouldn't.  The 3 game suspension is due to prior infractions, not just the 1 hit.  How many times has Shazier been fined this season???  Was Gio a defenseless receiver?  No, he was a ball carrier...

 

I don't think they differentiate spearing on a ball carrier or defenseless receiver.  That was clearly a spear and helmet to helmet contact.  Not saying he should be suspended at all, but should have still been a penalty at the time and possible fine.  I would actually be surprised if it wasn't a fine.

What's the issue with the hit by Shazier?  That he led with the crown?

 

The Burfict hit is probably dirty because he sees that Brown does not have the ball and then purposefully puts his shoulder into Brown's helmet when he was in a defenseless position.  Bernard at least had the ball.  Also, it is difficult to say whether Shazier was really trying to spear him as opposed to getting his helmet on the side Bernard was moving toward.  I'd have to see another angle to be sure.  But you can see Bernard dip down just a bit, which caused the helmet-to-helmet collision.  Those bang-bang plays are very hard to judge.

 

OK, maybe I am a bit biased, but look at those clips.

 

When the ball passes through 84's hands, how many steps does Burfict take?  It looks like one step to me.

 

When Gio catches it, how many steps does Shazier take?  It looks like 2 to me. 

 

Also, look at the forward lean is Shazier's body, him dropping his eyes straight to the ground and launching the crown of his helmet right into Gio's facemask.  Not saying he should be suspended for it, but he was looking for a big hit there when he saw he had position on him when he catches it on a hitch route.  If anything, Shazier should get a fine, that was the definition of a spear.

 

I just don't think you can say one was bang - bang and the other wasn't, when Burfict was in full stride and took maybe 1 full step after it touched Brown's hands.  It looks a lost faster in live film, wonder if anyone has it.

My biggest issue is that while it was a reckless, dirty hit, I don't think he was trying to hit his head. Brown's head goes down very quickly just before Burfict hits him. It looks like Burfict was trying to hit him shoulder to shoulder, but not hit him in the head. Look at all of the angles of this video. Particularly the third angle. Brown's head goes down probably a foot in the final half second. Burfict was trying to put a big hit on him, but it wasn't an intentional blow to the head.

 

 

Shazier clearly lowers his head into Gio's helmet.

Hopefully Burfict's appeal gets the suspension down to one game, at most. The entire act by the NFL is just another example of their pretend concern for player safety. They don't really care, but that was one of the most watched games of the year so they had to appear to care. Meanwhile, there are a lot of Steeler fans and the NFL doesn't want to piss all of them off and affect a playoff game so no Steeler is going to be suspended. At least they had some key injuries, though.

 

The one thing missing from this game?  Shadow Hare. 

 

 

If Shadow Hare were dedicated to fighting evil, he'd get to Pittsburgh and leave a flaming bag of poop on Joey Porter's doorstep, and release a bunch of mice and cockroaches in Martino's on Short Vine.

This thread has become a near scripted example of confirmation bias.  This is coming from someone who has hated the Steelers before I understood what football was.

This thread has become a near scripted example of confirmation bias.  This is coming from someone who has hated the Steelers before I understood what football was.

 

Likewise on the black and yellow things, and I'd say the main difference between Shazier's hit and Burfict's was that the former was part of making a tackle and the latter after the play was effectively over.  As for Porter the refs should have been paying better attention but they really don't usually keep close tabs of who is on the field during an injury time out.

 

Pacman's a loose cannon and always has been.

^^I have very mixed feelings about Burfict. He's a great playmaker, but he often ruins his skill by doing stupid/dangerous things.

 

His hit against the Raven's player in week 17 was WAYYY worse than this hit. But he only got a fine for that. This hit, which could arguably have been him accidentally making a blow to the head while trying to make a big hit, gets him three games. There's just no consistency in the NFL, and if he gets a 3 game suspension for this hit, Shazier deserves a 3 game suspension.

 

I disagree with both getting a 3 game suspension btw. Just trying to point out the difference in the penalties for each player.

His hit against the Raven's player in week 17 was WAYYY worse than this hit. But he only got a fine for that. This hit, which could arguably have been him accidentally making a blow to the head while trying to make a big hit, gets him three games. There's just no consistency in the NFL, and if he gets a 3 game suspension for this hit, Shazier deserves a 3 game suspension.

 

The penalty for your 1st DUI is going to be different than the penalty for your 7th DUI.

I'm not a Cincinnati fan at all but the officiating it that game was horrific, especially the penalty on Pacman Jones. You had a Steelers coach on the field of play for f%^*s same.

I'm not a Cincinnati fan at all but the officiating it that game was horrific, especiallycially the penalty on Pacman Jones. You had a Steelers coach on the field of play for f%^*s same.

 

And he shall be attacked by Bengals players with impunity!!!  Was not an active field btw, the game was stopped for significant time due to injury.

Here I am posting the last link and then I will be done, promise.

 

This is Deion Sanders and LT talking about the hit.  I think they are both right.

 

I think Deion is right that it wasn't an intentional knock out blow and hard for him to stop , and I think LT is right that if Vontaze just dove out of their or stood straight up, it would not have been called.  I think it is somewhere in the middle of their debate.  I think Vontaze could have definitely jumped out of the way IF he saw Brown missed the catch, but I don't think he purposely hit him in the helmet either way.  That's what I am sticking with.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-gameday/0ap3000000620215/Deion-and-LT-debate-Burfict-hit-on-Brown

 

I'm even admitting that this was a dangerous play and he went into him with intent to make a big hit. But the blow to the head was not his intent IMO. Receivers get hit all the time just after a pass. The only reason this is being talked about is because he got hit in the head.

 

Again, players do this all the time. This time it turned out really bad for Brown and the Bengals. But when Burfict goes in for the hit, I don't think he would expect Brown's head to be 3 feet from the field. Just my opinion.

I'm not a Cincinnati fan at all but the officiating it that game was horrific, especiallycially the penalty on Pacman Jones. You had a Steelers coach on the field of play for f%^*s same.

 

And he shall be attacked by Bengals players with impunity!!!  Was not an active field btw, the game was stopped for significant time due to injury.

 

I think it's common knowledge now that Joey Porter was out on the field talking s*** to stir things up, and that isn't allowed, active field or not.  It's also common knowledge that their are videos of Antonio Brown celebrating in the locker room after the game.  Also, Joey Porter was given the game ball by Mike Tomlin.

 

I suspect Joey Porter will be fined for his actions.  If anything, it should have been a double unsportsmanlike conduct.

^A source in Pittsburgh claims Joey Porter didn't get the game ball. Not sure of what really happened.

 

And that hit on Brown was big. I don't think he was faking it. Players get hit like that all the time and then come back in to play on the next drive after a concussion test. So I don't think him celebrating is evidence he was faking it.

^A source in Pittsburgh claims Joey Porter didn't get the game ball. Not sure of what really happened.

 

And that hit on Brown was big. I don't think he was faking it. Players get hit like that all the time and then come back in to play on the next drive after a concussion test. So I don't think him celebrating is evidence he was faking it.

 

Fair enough.  Yeah, I don't necessarily think Brown was faking it, but then again I wouldn't be surprised.  And with Joey Porter, it should have been a double unsportsmanlike conduct in my opinion if anything at that time.  Now, it may have been too late anyways, but should have still been called.

Frankly, the NFL has some work to do on the defenseless receiver rule.  Myself and most of the viewing audience still don't understand it and I don't think the players completely do either.

 

I have a feeling that if Brown caught the ball AND held on to it, the flag would not have even been thrown.  But if he caught the ball and the hit caused him to drop it, then the flag comes out.  In the latter situation, there is probably not even a fine.  But when Brown doesn't catch the ball at all, it is a flag and a fine/suspension.

The penalty on Burfict is one of the more complex articles in the NFL Rulebook and whether the flag should have been thrown is debatable. Initiating contact with the crown of the helmet as Shazier did is one of the simplest, most concise rules. If a player initiates contact with the top of the helmet outside of the tackle box, it's a penalty every time. It was a horrible no call, exacerbated by the fact that it was blatantly obvious during the challenge replay. The NFL should revisit their rules - when a turnover is caused by an obvious concussion causing illegal hit, and the challenge replay clearly shows it, there should be some recourse. If not, the NFL should just drop the entire concussion protocol and all penalties crafted around it.

 

Well with St. Louis now without a team, a picture is starting to emerge for possible relocation of The Bengals in the late 2020s.  LA is taken, and we can assume that other big cities like Chicago, Dallas, etc., do not want second teams competing for the local market with The Bears, The Cowboys, etc. 

 

The big dangers might be Las Vegas (if it continues to grow) and then international cities like London and Mexico City.  It would be just plain weird if The Bengals vanished into thin air and ended up in another country. 

 

http://deadspin.com/my-god-mike-brown-might-be-the-worst-owner-in-sports-1752714012

 

Well with St. Louis now without a team, a picture is starting to emerge for possible relocation of The Bengals in the late 2020s.  LA is taken, and we can assume that other big cities like Chicago, Dallas, etc., do not want second teams competing for the local market with The Bears, The Cowboys, etc. 

 

The big dangers might be Las Vegas (if it continues to grow) and then international cities like London and Mexico City.  It would be just plain weird if The Bengals vanished into thin air and ended up in another country. 

 

 

OKC could become a market for NFL.  Memphis also perhaps.  Texas & Florida already have multiple teams so it probably doesn't make sense to add another even though they have several major growing cities.

I think the NFL's best 'untapped' markets are not in the U.S.

 

The penalty on Burfict is one of the more complex articles in the NFL Rulebook and whether the flag should have been thrown is debatable. Initiating contact with the crown of the helmet as Shazier did is one of the simplest, most concise rules. If a player initiates contact with the top of the helmet outside of the tackle box, it's a penalty every time. It was a horrible no call, exacerbated by the fact that it was blatantly obvious during the challenge replay. The NFL should revisit their rules - when a turnover is caused by an obvious concussion causing illegal hit, and the challenge replay clearly shows it, there should be some recourse. If not, the NFL should just drop the entire concussion protocol and all penalties crafted around it.

 

I sympathize with the Shazier situation more.  It was similar to the call which got Bosa tossed in the bowl game.  You have two players heading at a slight angle towards the sideline.  The goal of the defender in that situation is get his helmet between the sideline and the player (if you don't, the ball carrier has a better chance of running through your arm tackle.  Moving at full speed, there is very little room for error.  So the question becomes to what degree should intent be considered.

 

Certainly, for his own sake at least, Shazier should have his head up.  But why are the defenders called for that, but not running backs plunging through the holes in the line?  Wasn't it against the Bengals during Trent Richardson's rookie year with the Browns that he essentially ran over a defender using the crown of his helmet?  I don't think I have ever seen that called on a RB, yet they do it all the time to get those extra yards.

^Just move back to leather helmets.