I sympathize with the Shazier situation more.  It was similar to the call which got Bosa tossed in the bowl game.  You have two players heading at a slight angle towards the sideline.  The goal of the defender in that situation is get his helmet between the sideline and the player (if you don't, the ball carrier has a better chance of running through your arm tackle.  Moving at full speed, there is very little room for error.  So the question becomes to what degree should intent be considered.

 

Certainly, for his own sake at least, Shazier should have his head up.  But why are the defenders called for that, but not running backs plunging through the holes in the line?  Wasn't it against the Bengals during Trent Richardson's rookie year with the Browns that he essentially ran over a defender using the crown of his helmet?  I don't think I have ever seen that called on a RB, yet they do it all the time to get those extra yards.

 

The rule about leading with the crown of the helmet applies to runners, if it's not often called it's because it's another example of inconsistency among NFL officials. Your NCAA example is a good point, and further shows that the NFL doesn't really care about injuries, they just want to appear to care - Shazier would have been automatically ejected for that hit in the NCAA.

 

ARTICLE 8. INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET. It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.

 

Note: The tackle box no longer exists once the ball leaves the tackle box.

 

That's the entire rule - compare it to the page and a half of 8 point font that is the "defenseless posture" rule, and it puts some of the anger here in context.

What's the issue with the hit by Shazier?  That he led with the crown?

 

The Burfict hit is probably dirty because he sees that Brown does not have the ball and then purposefully puts his shoulder into Brown's helmet when he was in a defenseless position.  Bernard at least had the ball.  Also, it is difficult to say whether Shazier was really trying to spear him as opposed to getting his helmet on the side Bernard was moving toward.  I'd have to see another angle to be sure.  But you can see Bernard dip down just a bit, which caused the helmet-to-helmet collision.  Those bang-bang plays are very hard to judge.

 

What? Ever played the game before? Cripes, I can't believe someone can't see that this is a spear. Helmet to helmet is not even the issue.

 

Proper tackling means he has his head up as if his eyes are to the sky before he shoots with his target being Gio's hips. His head should finish across his body, which it does, but only after Shazier clearly lowered his head. You can see the bottom of his mask below his chest.

 

Burfict's "hit" is less egregious in my view because he used a shoulder, albeit illegally according to the rules. I believe Taz checked up. He was certainly cocked and loaded for more of a pill than he delivered.

I played through college

 

FWIW, what you describe is not proper form tackling. A perfect tackle would have the defender putting his facemask right on the front numbers on the jersey and shooting double uppercuts through the armpits.

 

I do agree that the end result was a spear, which is why I asked whether intent matters. If Shazier had got his head to Bernard's right side, it is not a spear regardless of whether his head was up or down. It's not smart for him as you want to keep your eyes on your target and lowering your head increases the risk of a head injury. But keep in mind that we are dealing with a live play and it comes down to a matter of inches sometimes

I played through college

 

Then I trust you know how to tackle better than anyone on this forum let alone me. Is my description of technique correct? Does it look like Shazier's eyes are to the sky? I'm not sure what Shazier was "trying" to do in this case has to do with it being a penalty or not.

See my edited response

If you made a tackle with your head down like Shazier did when I played in high school, you had to run laps after film. You got a star on your helmet for a hit like Burfict delivered.

 

The rule regarding leading with the helmet is in my post above. I don't see any way someone can read that rule, watch the gif on the previous page, and make any logical argument that it shouldn't have been a penalty. Aside from offsides, false starts, and a handful of other penalties, this one is probably the most clear cut and obvious.

http://deadspin.com/my-god-mike-brown-might-be-the-worst-owner-in-sports-1752714012

 

The vote's just based on Pro Football Talk's speculation, and they're not a reliable source. 

 

Miser Mike was one of the worst owners at the turn of the century to be sure.  The team famously sent Akili Smith a coach ticket to Cincy (his agent upgraded it) while Donovan McNabb was limoing to Philly and Tim Couch was in Al Lerner's jet.  He also meddled incessantly in personnel decisions.    It seems once he hired Marvin Lewis he quit it, and with multiple consecutive playoff appearances he can't be called worst any more.

I played through college

 

FWIW, what you describe is not proper form tackling. A perfect tackle would have the defender putting his facemask right on the front numbers on the jersey and shooting double uppercuts through the armpits.

 

I do agree that the end result was a spear, which is why I asked whether intent matters. If Shazier had got his head to Bernard's right side, it is not a spear regardless of whether his head was up or down. It's not smart for him as you want to keep your eyes on your target and lowering your head increases the risk of a head injury. But keep in mind that we are dealing with a live play and it comes down to a matter of inches sometimes

 

I only played through high school, but was slow and skinny so technique was crucial.  This is spot on.

Offensive Coordinator Hue Jackson will reportedly become the new Browns head coach.

If you made a tackle with your head down like Shazier did when I played in high school, you had to run laps after film. You got a star on your helmet for a hit like Burfict delivered.

 

The rule regarding leading with the helmet is in my post above. I don't see any way someone can read that rule, watch the gif on the previous page, and make any logical argument that it shouldn't have been a penalty. Aside from offsides, false starts, and a handful of other penalties, this one is probably the most clear cut and obvious.

 

After replay, both Mike Carey (former NFL referee) and Mike Pereira (former VP of Officiating) concluded the hit was legal.  Apparently, the ban against the use of the crown doesn't apply in a bang-bang situation (see Florio's explanation on PFT).  The rule apparently does indeed require intent to "line up" the target (which is why it is called "targeting" in college).  During an interview, Perieira explained that the rule was put in place for "direct contact... It wasn't for when a player went sideways and in this case he turned around, spun around after making the catch and was clearly a runner."  He further explained how hard it is to officiate this rule and pointed out that since the rule was introduced in 2013 it has been called all of two times (both in 2013).

 

Clearly, the NFL is not calling it as strictly as college.  I don't even know if the rule is the same.  But if you're looking for a logical argument (other than that contained in my previous comments;)) there you go.  I'm sure there are experts who disagree after carefully reviewing the play several times.

 

My main point was that I can't conclude Shazier had the requisite intent due to the speed of the game and the fact it was a bang-bang play with the runner in motion.  Same could be said for Burfict, but in that GIF I see him targeting Brown's head with his shoulder.  JMHO.

^ I think this is a good explanation and makes sense on a lot of levels.  I don't think either hits were necessarily malicious, and in my opinion I thought both should be flagged.  I honestly think that on Burficts hit, that he was just trying to zoom past Brown like he was running through a play in practice, and Brown's head dropped and he smoked it.  Still all a penalty, and still extremely stupid considering the circumstances, but I don't think he was deliberately trying to take his head off.

 

Makes sense that the NFL isn't calling it like they do in College in regards to targeting.  In college that is for sure an ejection as we saw with Joey Bosa and many other players throughout the season.  The NFL really needs to get these called straight though and I would not mind at all if they use replay.  They just need to get consistent with it, period.

Claiming a rule is hard to officiate is just an excuse for not enforcing said rule when it should have been enforced. Florio's explanation is about how Bernard wasn't defenseless - no one is claiming he was, and that's a different rule. The entire rule I'm referencing is posted above, I don't see any exceptions in the rule book for "bang-bang" situations, which seems to just be an allusion to an excuse for not calling a penalty because it happened too fast for an official to register. 

 

However anyone looks at it, my point is that the NFL either needs to get serious about it or admit they don't care and relax the rules. When it's written and enforced in such an incompetent way fans feel alienated. Unfortunately, no Ohio team is a big enough market for the NFL to care, but if this were a Pittsburgh v. New England game we'd never hear the end of it.

 

 

After replay, both Mike Carey (former NFL referee) and Mike Pereira (former VP of Officiating) concluded the hit was legal.

 

They are former right? I'm sure the league has updated rules. If this was legal we will be getting players killed on the field.

^If anyone is going to die (or be paralyzed) from a spear hit, it is the defender.  Yes, those commenters are former officials.  I'm not sure current officials are allowed to comment (other than the "comment" which was made during the game when no penalty was assessed)

 

^^Florio was covering both topics, the defenseless receiver rule (which was the initial reaction to the hit) and the spearing rule.  His exact words were "the ban against use of the crown of the helmet doesn't apply in a bang-bang situation.  It requires the person delivering the blow with the crown of the helmet to "line up" the target.  While close, that's not what happened between Bernard and Shazier."

 

I really think the difference is calls and no-calls for spearing is whether it was intentional or incidental.  The college refs seem to err on the side of intentional, and have the benefit of replay to reverse the call if they are wrong (which is what happened with Bosa in a game earlier in the year).  NFL refs seem to err on the side of incidental.  Maybe they should review the rule and its application, but it appears that under the applied standards it was the right no-call.

Interesting summary - this guy makes sense.

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/bengals-steelers-referees-vontaze-burfict

^If anyone is going to die (or be paralyzed) from a spear hit, it is the defender.  Yes, those commenters are former officials.  I'm not sure current officials are allowed to comment (other than the "comment" which was made during the game when no penalty was assessed)

 

^^Florio was covering both topics, the defenseless receiver rule (which was the initial reaction to the hit) and the spearing rule.  His exact words were "the ban against use of the crown of the helmet doesn't apply in a bang-bang situation.  It requires the person delivering the blow with the crown of the helmet to "line up" the target.  While close, that's not what happened between Bernard and Shazier."

 

I really think the difference is calls and no-calls for spearing is whether it was intentional or incidental.  The college refs seem to err on the side of intentional, and have the benefit of replay to reverse the call if they are wrong (which is what happened with Bosa in a game earlier in the year).  NFL refs seem to err on the side of incidental.  Maybe they should review the rule and its application, but it appears that under the applied standards it was the right no-call.

 

I poured through the NFL rule book and have no idea where Florio is getting his understanding from. It would be far from unprecedented if he were just talking out of his ass. I posted the rule above. The reference to incidental contact is exactly that - contact that isn't on purpose. Shazier clearly lowered his head, looked straight down at the grass, and led with it directly into Bernard. Florio either didn't review the rules before writing his blog post, or he is confusing several rules. The post above this one links to a far better summary.

I believe it is coming from the former officials he references in his article. Keep in mind that officials get training on these rules, specifically when they apply and do not apply.  Regardless, I certainly concede the play was debatable. But too many people who have more expertise than you and I believe the no call was correct for me to concede anything beyond that.

 

FWIW, here is another take which concludes the hit actually took place within the tackle box so it wouldn't qualify under the rule you rely upon, but believes it was unnecessary roughness irregardless of whether the crown of the helmet was used or not - http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/195380/faq-a-chaotic-fourth-quarter-of-calls-in-steelers-bengals - Now that is something I would hate to see called consistently

Steelers' Antonio Brown ruled out for this week's playoff game at Denver.  I guess he wasn't faking.  This kills whatever chance of Burfict's appeal, NFL will not reduce his 3 game suspension now that Brown is missing this game

The Steelers are a bunch of delicate flowers. Here's a tackle where they gently put AJ to the ground. No flag and AJ out for the playoffs last year.

 

Looking forward to a Bronco trampling this Sun.

 

The Steelers are a bunch of delicate flowers. Here's a tackle where they gently put AJ to the ground. No flag and AJ out for the playoffs last year.

 

Looking forward to a Bronco trampling this Sun.

 

 

Ever wonder why that stuff never happens to Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?

The Steelers are a bunch of delicate flowers. Here's a tackle where they gently put AJ to the ground. No flag and AJ out for the playoffs last year.

 

Looking forward to a Bronco trampling this Sun.

 

 

Ever wonder why that stuff never happens to Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?

 

If Brady gets hurt there's a rule change.

 

Really.

Now it's illegal...

 

 

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hit-on-Gio-sparks-change-in-call/2ed82948-d39a-4adb-bc97-955accb16bd1

Guns N Roses to play in The Jungle:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2016/03/25/guns-n-roses-play-cincy-summer/82279616/

Weird...leading with the helmet has been illegal for a long time.  Especially when one drops the helmet for the hit.  Of little consolation for Bengals' fans, but I suspect there are more rules instituted after hits by Steeler "players" on Bengals than any other in the NFL. 

 

The fix is in. Bengals play at the Steelers on Week 2 with no Burfict.

 

The London game is @ 9:30am. I think the Bengals will be popular in London.

 

Rumour has it for Thursday's "Color Rush" game, the Bengals will be in all orange and the Dolphins in all teal.

 

I know the girl who jumped the stadium fence.  I thought she was 20 or 21, not 23. 

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/court-docs-woman-climbs-paul-brown-stadium-fence-to-catch-pokemon/40880626

Why Your Team Sucks 2016: Cincinnati Bengals [NSFW - language]

 

Your 2015 record: 12-4. Wow. Pretty impressive. Why, that sounds like that kind of loaded team that could finally notch a playoff win for Marvin Lewis… a band of SCRAPPY UNDERTIGERS that could rally from a 15-0 deficit in the fourth quarter (without Andy Dalton!) against the hated Steelers and finally rid themselves of their long-standing reputation for turning into cold vomit during the postseason! Let’s see if they OH MY GOD

 

 

Yup. They bungled it. To refresh your memory, Jeremy Hill fumbled when the game was all but over, and then this UNBELIEVABLY F*&%ING STUPID defense committed two straight personal fouls to hand Pittsburgh the winning field goal.

I can watch that 1000 times and it will always look like a clean hit to me. I stopped caring about the NFL when they all became a bunch of overpaid wimps. If everyone played the game like Burfict I might buy a ticket every once in awhile.

The Bengals should fire Lewis at mid season. They are years behind doing it. Mike won't though. Which is SAD.

another dirty hit by Vontaze Burfict this week, on Patriots TE Martellus Bennett.  Not sure if it will result in a fine or not but his reputation is now about the worst in the NFL

The Bengals are looking like an 8-8 team, at best. If they would have played close at Dallas and New England I would have given them the benefit of the doubt but at this point I'm not watching any more games, just listening to Dan and Dave on WLW, though even Dave seems downright sad about them this year.

I biked past Government Square today about one hour after the conclusion of the game.  Not a single rider on the outbound #11 bus to Hyde Park.  Given that this is a nearly perpetual surge zone for Uber, it illustrates that virtually zero people who don't care about dropping $50~ to get to and from the game entertain the idea of riding the bus. 

Clever. Looking forward to this.

 

A nice interview with Mike Brown regarding the Raiders' move to Oakland:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/03/27/mike-brown-supports-raiders-move-las-vegas/99704536/

 

His comments illustrate how good the stadium situation is in Cincinnati.  First, our stadium was damn cheap, even with the overruns.  Second, no factor has appeared in the past 20 years that has made PBS obsolete.  At Riverfront, the whole problem was that the NFL had structured revenue sharing around general admission, not luxury boxes, so teams in stadiums without the boxes could not collect that revenue for themselves.  It was designed to bring demo crews to multi-purpose stadiums and force the huge wave of publicly financed football-only stadiums. Third, scratch Las Vegas off the list for places the Bengals might be compelled to move to. 

 

As has been mentioned here before, unless the league expands to England or Mexico or Canada, there really isn't a city that can offer anything to The Bengals that they aren't getting now.  There is of course some possibility that the SF Bay area or another metro could grow so meteorically that it could support two teams, but it's now unlikely that the 49'ers will want to share that metro with another team. 

 

 

And Mike Brown will pocket $50m once all these teams are done moving. PBS is nearly 17 yrs old, it will be interesting to hear what their demand for improvements will cost.

And Mike Brown will pocket $50m once all these teams are done moving. PBS is nearly 17 yrs old, it will be interesting to hear what their demand for improvements will cost.

 

Every building needs major repairs every thirty years.  We're spending $150 million on Music Hall, which was last renovated in the 70s, and a similar amount on Union Terminal, which was last renovated around 1990.  I would expect that renovations to PBS will cost at least $100 million.  They'll want to replace the interiors, the lights, do concrete work, repair plumbing, etc. 

I just noticed that no one has posted anything about the Bengals since March. A mixture of mediocre results, Marvin Lewis/dalton fatigue and feeling like the NFL rehabilitation team has lead to a lot of apathy in the fan base. No draft posts, no practice or training camp, no 1st preseason game wrap up. I myself haven't been paying attention much this year and apparently I'm not the only one.

I just noticed that no one has posted anything about the Bengals since March. A mixture of mediocre results, Marvin Lewis/dalton fatigue and feeling like the NFL rehabilitation team has lead to a lot of apathy in the fan base. No draft posts, no practice or training camp, no 1st preseason game wrap up. I myself haven't been paying attention much this year and apparently I'm not the only one.

You summed it up pretty well.

6-10 tops

 

 

wow Dalton was terrible.

They drafted mixon and Ross when they lost 2 tackles and a center. Stupid

I missed this news last year -- Hamilton County refinanced the PBS construction bonds in August 2016.  The refi is saving the county between $2-7 million per year.  I believe that the variation accounts for the times when specific bonds were sold.  They didn't sell all of the construction bonds at once but rather in groups over a few years, and those bond sales were each at somewhat different rates. 

http://wvxu.org/post/hamilton-county-officially-refinances-stadium-debt-save-money

The Bengals really should clean house. They really should be better than they are, but they are so good at finding ways to lose.

^Yeah, I've always defended Marvin Lewis and I still think he is a really good coach but besides the vets on this team, especially on defense they don't play like they should.  Hardly any of the high draft pick DB's are playing well (Williams, Dennard), and besides Lafell and Green the WR's aren't any good (Boyd and Ross), and they are just more or less a mess.

 

Maybe Cincy can get someone to come in and take over for Marvin and let Marvin move to a GM and see if the new guy can get the young guys motivated.

Well some good news, it looks like Shazier is improving. Scary incident.

^Yeah, I've always defended Marvin Lewis and I still think he is a really good coach but besides the vets on this team, especially on defense they don't play like they should.  Hardly any of the high draft pick DB's are playing well (Williams, Dennard), and besides Lafell and Green the WR's aren't any good (Boyd and Ross), and they are just more or less a mess.

 

Maybe Cincy can get someone to come in and take over for Marvin and let Marvin move to a GM and see if the new guy can get the young guys motivated.

 

LOL Marvin Lewis is a really good coach!? The same Marvin Lewis who has been in Cincinnati 15 years and never won a playoff game? It's literally the same thing every year with the Bengals. As soon as the Steelers got the field goal at the end of the first half last night, I knew the Bengals were toast. It's so predictable, and the game played out pretty much EXACTLY like I knew it would. Sloppy play, dropped passes, stupid penalties (the offside at the end was SO classically Bungles), conservative play to cling to whatever lead they managed to create in the first half. Throw in some bad calls from the refs, which also seems to be a fixture in Bengals games, and the loss last night was all but assured.

 

You have to realize, it doesn't matter who we throw out there on the field, as long as Marvin and Co. are around, the Bengals will never do anything. I realize I sound like one of those angry dudes who calls into 700 WLW after games, but I think the records speak for themselves at this point. I used to be a very optimistic Bengals fan, and managed to shrug off disappointing season after disappointing season due to the hope that if we just add ____ player, this team will finally get over the hump! Yeah, not how it works in Bengaldom. Even when the team is supposedly stacked, and going against lesser opponents such as the 2013 playoff game against a weak Chargers team, we lose and lose badly. The 2015 playoff game against the Steelers is what really opened my eyes, though. When they found a way to lose that game, that was it for me. I've watched maybe 3 quarters of Bengal football this year, and that's 3 too many.

^I don't disagree with you.  IMO their best chance was 2015 and they blew it as you mentioned and had Dalton got hurt I am guessing they would have advanced pretty far.

 

What I mean by really good coach, is that who else is going to do as good of job as Marvin Lewis?  I think recently they have had issues with player development talking the last two years where players drafted have not panned out and the vets that did pan out from 2011-2015 are getting older.  That one is on coaching.  I think Lewis can play a good role with the Bengals if he choses as a GM.  He can find players, but I think they need discipline and hard coaching to develop those young players and hopefully they can find the right coach to do it, I just don't know if Brown has it in him.  I'll tell you though I think Hugh Jackson would be a good coach if the Browns can him.  And it really isn't his fault the Browns are as bad as they are.  They were playing their best football under Hugh in 2015 before Dalton broke his thumb.  With Marvin as GM and Hugh as head coach I think they can take it up a notch.  I think also them trading away Whitworth was a big mistake and that cost at least 2 or 3 wins this year so far though the o-line has played better lately.

OMG, I really don't believe this...  ??? :'(

http://www.wcpo.com/sports/football/bengals/viking-coach-mike-zimmer-says-marvin-lewis-deserves-lifetime-contract-with-bengals

OMG, I really don't believe this...  ??? :'(

http://www.wcpo.com/sports/football/bengals/viking-coach-mike-zimmer-says-marvin-lewis-deserves-lifetime-contract-with-bengals

 

That would make Mike Tomlin happy.

OMG, I want to believe this...  ;)

https://www.wcpo.com/sports/football/bengals/bengals-head-coach-marvin-lewis-to-leave-after-this-season-sources-tell-espn