I would prefer if all of the businesses who wanted "campuses" where in midtown instead of the suburbs. I mean you can have your office towers in downtown, drive through midtown where all the "campus" offices are, and then get to University Circle where all the Hospitals and cultural institutions are. Id take the "campuses" if they where Cleveland over having them in the suburbs. And just saying, the campuses would look better then what is there now.

 

And I dont mind the Applied Industrial Tech building. I rather we have it the beachwood or mentor

 

As a young professional, I would prefer my business not be located in Midtown. Seriously, what is this 'Midtown' other than words and a few isolated placards along the roadside? There's nothing there. What am I going to eat? Where am I going to park? The need for a campus is even more compelling if you want to locate it there, because the surrounding area offers almost nothing.

 

If they want to bulldoze a huge area and put up a campus (or use any of the vast open spaces on Chester/Euclid), that's great, please, do so. The city should make it virtually free for them to do so. Because that area ranks about as low in desirability as I can imagine. Someone has to go first, but there is no reason for AG to feel like that's a good idea without a seriously big carrot.

 

Again, you looking at the glass as half empty.  As I've said before many people can be quick to point out bad, but not look at positive.  If a business like AG moved to Midtown, developers and real estate would work together for spin off needs and businesses.  Just because it's not bustling now doesn't mean it cannot be in a decade.

I would prefer if all of the businesses who wanted "campuses" where in midtown instead of the suburbs. I mean you can have your office towers in downtown, drive through midtown where all the "campus" offices are, and then get to University Circle where all the Hospitals and cultural institutions are. Id take the "campuses" if they where Cleveland over having them in the suburbs. And just saying, the campuses would look better then what is there now.

 

And I dont mind the Applied Industrial Tech building. I rather we have it the beachwood or mentor

 

As a young professional, I would prefer my business not be located in Midtown. Seriously, what is this 'Midtown' other than words and a few isolated placards along the roadside? There's nothing there. What am I going to eat? Where am I going to park? The need for a campus is even more compelling if you want to locate it there, because the surrounding area offers almost nothing.

 

If they want to bulldoze a huge area and put up a campus (or use any of the vast open spaces on Chester/Euclid), that's great, please, do so. The city should make it virtually free for them to do so. Because that area ranks about as low in desirability as I can imagine. Someone has to go first, but there is no reason for AG to feel like that's a good idea without a seriously big carrot.

 

I usually criticize others for having too much of this with regard to MidTown, but I would say you have absolutely no long-term vision for the area.

 

MidTown and Euclid Corridor both have certain design standards.  The Corridor was built with certain concepts and goals in mind.  I'm not sure what you are envisioining would qualify.  Maybe it is you use of the word "campus", which is evoking artifical ponds, rolling green fields, and 1500 ft setbacks.  If you were talking about something along the line of Tyler Village or what KJP is talking about, you won't get any objection here.  But if you want to put something like what Eaton has planned for Chagrin Highlands, that is not something I could get aboard with.

^^^ I'm considering this from the perspective of the company that would be moving there. The city might say, well,  we're going to entice more companies down here and such and so forth, and that's great, but what should be obvious by now is that businesses don't give a hoot about long-term urban development goals and want solid long-term deals in areas they're sure they're going to be happy with. So, that makes it very hard for Cleveland to 'sell' an area like Midtown when it has to compete with Beechwood, C. Highlands, Westlake, etc. It has access and proximity to downtown, and probably tax breaks galore, but even though I agree it could be a great area, at the present it remains a hard sell. I would be interested to learn more about why businesses are reluctant to relocate downtown. I am not focusing on the negative merely because I brought it up.

 

And as for young people preferring to live downtown, I live downtown and can attest to that, but for every one of me there are four or five other people my age (late 20's) who are happy as clams in the suburbs, even the far out ones. I don't get why they prefer that, but many people seem to, including people who work in the heart of downtown.

 

 

And as for young people preferring to live downtown, I live downtown and can attest to that, but for every one of me there are four or five other people my age (late 20's) who are happy as clams in the suburbs, even the far out ones. I don't get why they prefer that, but many people seem to, including people who work in the heart of downtown.

 

1 out of every 4 or 5 is not that unusual.

If I had to hazard a guess... I would say that of the Cleveland contingent on Urban Ohio, probably 1 out of every 4 or 5 lives downtown. And this forum is a pretty downtown-centric group.

 

 

The difference is that Cleveland UOers live in city neighborhoods.

(BTW, I consider Ohio City as downtown, since "downtown" to me is ~E. 30th to ~W. 30th)

 

Sorry, back to topic

Right. I live in OC and I consider it very downtown. :)

 

With regard to AG, my point is that there are perfectly legitimate reasons companies such as Eaton and AG may prefer suburban locations, regardless of their configurations, and while most of us are eager to see development focused on the city, we can't lose sight of the motivations and incentives that are driving companies away from the city. I don't think anyone has surrendered here and Fitzgerald/Kasich's prompt visit is encouraging. Hopefully they will stay in Brooklyn or at least not leave the county.

The thought of this thread just pisses me off to no end. I am so tired of these old east side suburbanites holding this area hostage with their threats of moving out of state. This has nothing to do with taxes, it has to do with their perception of what this area will be in the future. They have zero belief that we will succeed, so instead of staying and believing in us, much like Lebron they run. Like a shiny object, they are fascinated by the lure of what they perceive as a brighter future in the distance.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, a company such as Hallmark remains a good corporate citizen and embraces a community much like Cleveland, Kansas City. These CEO's seem to forget that "we" made them, they didn't make us.

Right. I live in OC and I consider it very downtown. :)

 

Sorry, but that's absurd.  There are many historic and geographic reasons why Ohio City is not "downtown" by any means- simply being near the center of the city doesn't make it so.  That said, there is an undeniable connection to Downtown, which is why I think the idea behind the "Down and Around Town" branding makes sense:  http://www.downandaroundtown.com/

 

-------

 

As far as locations in Cleveland go, I think criticizing a Midtown location for lacking nearby restaurants is rather specious.  There's plenty of under-utilized land in Midtown to build parking lots or garages on (not necessarily on Euclid Avenue,) and even in Beachwood you'd have to drive to go out to lunch!  I'm not saying that Midtown would be perfect, just that those arguments seem a little weak to me with all the restaurants in downtown and Asia Town, and the growing scene in University Circle (Uptown, etc.)

 

An area I would have liked AG to consider is in the industrial parts of Cudell/West Boulevard or southern Detroit-Shoreway, since there were several AG plants and warehouses there in the past.

I'm still not sure why we're stuck on the idea that AG needs a 'campus' headquarters. Why the heck can't they build up?

The County should offer them the Ameritrust building with 1$ rent for a 20 year deal. AG just has to pay to refurbish the complex. They'd be paying less taxes in Cleveland than in Brooklyn, and they'd save a lot of money on rent.

 

There's lots of restaurants in that area, new apartments (668 and soon the Schofield building), a big parking garage, and it's an overall up-and-coming area of downtown where they could attract plenty of young artistic types. It seems like a good idea, so of course it won't happen :/

The County should offer them the Ameritrust building with 1$ rent for a 20 year deal. AG just has to pay to refurbish the complex. They'd be paying less taxes in Cleveland than in Brooklyn, and they'd save a lot of money on rent.

coneybear for county executive!

I'm still not sure why we're stuck on the idea that AG needs a 'campus' headquarters. Why the heck can't they build up?

 

I don't think we're suggesting they should build a campus, just pointing out that if they prefer to build one, it doesn't have to be in exurbia or of purely exurban design.

^ exactly, its their choice on what style office they want not ours. But at least we could try to cater to what they want

I don't think the City, MidTown Inc, or any other controlling body would refuse to cater to a request by AG to build an urban friendly HQ anywhere in the City, campus style or not.  As long as it meets the extremely loosely applied design standards envisioned for Euclid Corridor, there is no reason it couldn't be built there.  Or.... AG could plop down a campus suitable for Chagrin Highlands in any number of other places within the City that does not have such design standards.  I hear we have a few vacant lots lying around somewhere.

^Agreed.  It's more about the company envisioning this middle ground than the city accommodating it.  Eaton did consider an urban campus of some sort in the FEB before pulling the plug and heading the Chagrin Highlands, but I can't recall if we ever saw any early massings/designs.  But at least they considered the city for their "campus."

The County should offer them the Ameritrust building with 1$ rent for a 20 year deal. AG just has to pay to refurbish the complex. They'd be paying less taxes in Cleveland than in Brooklyn, and they'd save a lot of money on rent.

 

There's lots of restaurants in that area, new apartments (668 and soon the Schofield building), a big parking garage, and it's an overall up-and-coming area of downtown where they could attract plenty of young artistic types. It seems like a good idea, so of course it won't happen :/

 

Dude, that's fucking brilliant!!!

 

I hope someone at the county reads that. And I hope AG is willing to listen.

^I think the county has been pretty consistent that they're expecting to receive a big check for the Ameritrust building to recoup at least some of the money they sunk into that building.  Tough to imagine the county writing that off if there's a good shot AG will stay in the county without it.

^That position might change with new leadership.  It's not Fitzgerald's or the new council's "boondoggle".... they can stop the bleeding at any time and not take any of the blame for what was lost.

 

That said, it sure sounds like AG has done all the "due diligence" it feels is necessary and Cleveland proper has not made the final list.  I'll just hope they stay in the area, even if I think that company is going the way of the doe-doe in the years to come.

Dude, that's f$&king brilliant!!!

 

I hope someone at the county reads that. And I hope AG is willing to listen.

 

Thanks KJP! (sorry I'm having some trouble with the quotes on here). I see a lot of potential in that building and I don't want to see it torn down. Is there a way to contact Fitzgerald with this idea? I don't even live in Cleveland but I'd be so excited if they worked out a deal like this with AG.

Why not write a letter to the editor of the PD? Urge the county to do this in a way that all of Greater Cleveland can hear it!

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/11/keeping_american_greetings_in.html

 

Keeping American Greetings in NE Ohio is a high priority: editorial

 

To prosper, any region first needs to retain -- and if possible, expand -- its existing firms. That, in a nutshell, is why one of Greater Cleveland's economic priorities right now must be to hang on to American Greetings Corp. and its 2,000 employees.

 

Executives of the 104-year-old Fortune 1000 company announced last January that they were thinking of moving out of Brooklyn. The stated reason was an income-tax hike in the suburb, although close observers of the company speculated that it might also be looking for a more modern home.

There's an article in Crains entitled, 'Cost, creative needs driving AG's HQ search'

 

Someone with a subscription want to get on there and summarize it for the rest of us?  :clap:

Just search "Cost, creative needs driving AG's HQ search" on google and you will able to read it.

Try Google ;)

 

But it goes like this...

 

They want to attract creative people but cost is a concern,yadda yadda yadda. The raising of Brooklyn income tax started this whole discussion off. Chicago is nice but it's expensive.

 

One direct quote "One place it will not wind up is in a high-rise. 'We don't want a tower,' Ms. Kilbane said." (AG General Counsel)

 

They've hired an architectural/design firm that pretty much specializes in sprawly office parks/corporate retreats (that apparently these creative folks really like).

And basically they want creative people which they feel like could be easy to find in Chicago. They dont want a tower, so downtown is out. And it could be cheaper for them in Cleveland.

However exciting my idea for the Ameritrust tower is, Catherine Kilbane, American Greeting general counsel, said that they don't want a tower. Of course, she gives no reason at all. I wish the big corporations in the area would realize the benefits of a downtown headquarters (yes I'm also talking to you, Progressive and Eaton).

However exciting my idea for the Ameritrust tower is, Catherine Kilbane, American Greeting general counsel, said that they don't want a tower. Of course, she gives no reason at all. I wish the big corporations in the area would realize the benefits of a downtown headquarters (yes I'm also talking to you, Progressive and Eaton).

 

Eaton is long gone. I wish there was someway to pull at least some of Progressive offices to downtown and let them do the move slowly overtime. Eventually they would need a new tower of their own. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen either.

Why are all the big corporations so afraid of downtown? Cleveland's downtown is beginning to experience a lot of new development. It would be a good place to attract young talent.

After reading the Crain's article I was left with feeling that so much BS was being shoveling that perhaps AG and its flunkies are going into farming.  It is amazing how people like to see themselves quoted in the news.

this whole "search committee" is an utter farce.  they will end up in beachwood because it is in the backyards of the executives, and they will use illinois to make the county and state bend over backwards to give it to them as cheaply as possible. end of story.

Well, you've got to give businesses what they want.  There are so many (near) vacant blocks in downtown Cleveland...who is to say a sprawling campus would be impossible? 

 

I'm just speaking as a business owner here, not as someone who has any particular anti or pro campus mentality

If they really wanted to attract creative types they would move downtown.  The last place young artistic types would want to work is in an office park in Beachwood.  The current executives in many U.S. corporations grew up during the expansion of the suburbs and still love that crap.  Hopefully as they retire, younger people will move in with more modern views of how to attract talent.

There are so many (near) vacant blocks in downtown Cleveland...who is to say a sprawling campus would be impossible?

 

Around Downtown, yes.  "In Downtown", not so much... unless you are planning to put a corporate campus on the WHD lots.

this whole "search committee" is an utter farce. they will end up in beachwood because it is in the backyards of the executives, and they will use illinois to make the county and state bend over backwards to give it to them as cheaply as possible. end of story.

 

I've thought the same from the beginning -- especially re: the strong-arming of state & local governments for tax breaks.

There are so many (near) vacant blocks in downtown Cleveland...who is to say a sprawling campus would be impossible?

 

Around Downtown, yes. "In Downtown", not so much... unless you are planning to put a corporate campus on the WHD lots.

 

I could see a campus type development in Midtown. God knows theres enough land to do it

There are so many (near) vacant blocks in downtown Cleveland...who is to say a sprawling campus would be impossible?

 

Around Downtown, yes. "In Downtown", not so much... unless you are planning to put a corporate campus on the WHD lots.

 

I could see a campus type development in Midtown. God knows theres enough land to do it

 

Thats what i've been saying. If we could use midtown to try to attract companies who are looking to office campuses. Its better then what we have now and it doesn't look like anything better will go there anytime soon. You have your towers downtown, campuses in midtown, and then you've got university circle. Its perfect.

they don't WANT to be in downtown or midtown.  they took the "look around" in the city to say they did it.  Like i said, often times these things are a joke.  I will be shocked if it ends up anywhere other than next to eaton. 

How many fortune 500 or 1000 companies would that make along I-271?  At least three...

3 too many

If taxes really are such a big deal to them, I hope AG takes note of this when considering those two Chicago locations:

 

Illinois legislators increase state's income tax from 3 to 5 percent to counter huge budget deficit

 

Published: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 2:44 AM    Updated: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 2:52 AM

 

By Associated Press

 

Deanna Bellandi / Associated Press

 

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Democrats in the Illinois Legislature early today approved a 66 percent income-tax increase in a desperate and politically risky effort to end the state's crippling budget crisis.

 

The increase now goes to Democratic Gov. Pat Quinn, who supports the plan to temporarily raise the personal tax rate to 5 percent, a two-thirds increase from the current 3 percent rate. Corporate taxes also would climb as part of the effort to close a budget hole that could hit $15 billion this year.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2011/01/illinois_legislators_increase.html

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AG isn't intending on leaving NE Ohio. They're just using Illinois as leverage to get a good deal. I do wish they would still consider Cleveland, which has a lower income tax than Brooklyn and I'm sure the city gov't is willing to make some decent deals with them. But alas, AG prefers a secluded suburban campus to an urban headquarters that integrates with the area around it and attracts younger, more creative employees.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AG isn't intending on leaving NE Ohio. They're just using Illinois as leverage to get a good deal. I do wish they would still consider Cleveland, which has a lower income tax than Brooklyn and I'm sure the city gov't is willing to make some decent deals with them. But alas, AG prefers a secluded suburban campus to an urban headquarters that integrates with the area around it and attracts younger, more creative employees.

 

They could have used the old eaton planned site in the flats

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AG isn't intending on leaving NE Ohio. They're just using Illinois as leverage to get a good deal. I do wish they would still consider Cleveland, which has a lower income tax than Brooklyn and I'm sure the city gov't is willing to make some decent deals with them. But alas, AG prefers a secluded suburban campus to an urban headquarters that integrates with the area around it and attracts younger, more creative employees.

 

They could have used the old eaton planned site in the flats

Of course. And they could have used midtown for a campus, the parking lot on public square, the warehouse district parking lot, the old Ameritrust tower, etc. But for some reason they prefer a boring, secluded suburban bunker. If AG really wanted to make a bold move that would attract younger, more hip employees, they would renovate the Ameritrust complex and move their headquarters there. That section of Euclid is quickly becoming something the city should be proud of and, if I was in a leadership position at AG, I would strongly consider becoming a part of that section for the sake of the company. But they don't want to move to the "scary" city. They'd rather just stay in the bland suburbs, where it's easier for the CEOs to drive to.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AG isn't intending on leaving NE Ohio. They're just using Illinois as leverage to get a good deal. I do wish they would still consider Cleveland, which has a lower income tax than Brooklyn and I'm sure the city gov't is willing to make some decent deals with them. But alas, AG prefers a secluded suburban campus to an urban headquarters that integrates with the area around it and attracts younger, more creative employees.

 

They could have used the old eaton planned site in the flats

Of course. And they could have used midtown for a campus, the parking lot on public square, the warehouse district parking lot, the old Ameritrust tower, etc. But for some reason they prefer a boring, secluded suburban bunker. If AG really wanted to make a bold move that would attract younger, more hip employees, they would renovate the Ameritrust complex and move their headquarters there. That section of Euclid is quickly becoming something the city should be proud of and, if I was in a leadership position at AG, I would strongly consider becoming a part of that section for the sake of the company. But they don't want to move to the "scary" city. They'd rather just stay in the bland suburbs, where it's easier for the CEOs to drive to.

 

You have to remember that the suburbs are where all the creative minds are. Just look at the surroundings, it clearly inspires the employees to do beautiful things  :roll:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AG isn't intending on leaving NE Ohio. They're just using Illinois as leverage to get a good deal. I do wish they would still consider Cleveland, which has a lower income tax than Brooklyn and I'm sure the city gov't is willing to make some decent deals with them. But alas, AG prefers a secluded suburban campus to an urban headquarters that integrates with the area around it and attracts younger, more creative employees.

 

They could have used the old eaton planned site in the flats

Of course. And they could have used midtown for a campus, the parking lot on public square, the warehouse district parking lot, the old Ameritrust tower, etc. But for some reason they prefer a boring, secluded suburban bunker. If AG really wanted to make a bold move that would attract younger, more hip employees, they would renovate the Ameritrust complex and move their headquarters there. That section of Euclid is quickly becoming something the city should be proud of and, if I was in a leadership position at AG, I would strongly consider becoming a part of that section for the sake of the company. But they don't want to move to the "scary" city. They'd rather just stay in the bland suburbs, where it's easier for the CEOs to drive to.

 

You have to remember that the suburbs are where all the creative minds are. Just look at the surroundings, it clearly inspires the employees to do beautiful things :roll:

Yeah there's nothing like parking lots, lawnmowers, and rows of identical houses to really get those creative juices flowing! You just can't get any of that beauty in the city haha

I mean come on guys, we need to be realistic here.

 

Who the hell in the right minds would want to work here:

 

When they could work by a great URBAN environment like this:

 

Cleveland just had no way to compete, I mean just look at the pictures, they tell 1000 words.

 

 

Pictures taken by: kcgridlock

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,13423.0.html

No doubt AG isn't exactly run by people with much foresight.

 

You only need to know that they bought a profitable business next door. And instead of continuing to operate that business, which was an asset to the community, they tore it apart for the sake of an empty lot.

In all fairness ClevelandOhio, there are probably a lot of people who would prefer the suburban location.

Only because they don't really know any better....

In all fairness ClevelandOhio, there are probably a lot of people who would prefer the suburban location.

Yes, and that's the problem. Like McCleveland said above me, they don't know any better. They just want cheap parking and a more convenient place for the CEOs to drive to.