There is a good chance another team will lose their starting QB next season due to injury and will be desperate for an experienced QB, even an injury-prone headcase.   

7 hours ago, mrnyc said:

what does the lack of interest say about baker?

 

https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/33766051

Some media insiders state that many teams are not happy with the Browns and the massive guaranteed contract given to Watson.  It ends up setting the bar even higher for the next round of contracts, costing everybody more.  The speculation is that there is some "payback" being dished out.  The other teams know that they can get Mayfield, but can do so where the Browns don't get as much in return in draft picks and the Browns end up eating some of the salary. 

 

At this time, the Browns best hope is for a starting quarterback (or more than one) to suffer an injury to drive up the price in their favor.

Edited April 19, 20223 yr by LifeLongClevelander

so now baker is pouting:

 

 

Browns’ Deshaun Watson reports for offseason program, Mayfield absent

 

By Associated Press

April 20, 2022 3:35am 

 Updated

59 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

so now baker is pouting:

 

 

Browns’ Deshaun Watson reports for offseason program, Mayfield absent

 

By Associated Press

April 20, 2022 3:35am 

 Updated

 

I'm not a Baker fan, but I have no clue why he would show up. 

 

Also.... 

 

 

 

 

 

*****whispers*****

 

.... a healthy Browns team can win the Super Bowl... 

24 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I'm not a Baker fan, but I have no clue why he would show up. 

 

Also.... 

 

 

 

 

 

*****whispers*****

 

.... a healthy Browns team can win the Super Bowl... 

These guys all have such fragile egos.  

Baker should show up and act like HE is the starting quarterback.   It might go along way for him as other teams keep a watchful eye for a potential trade.  

10 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

These guys all have such fragile egos.  

Baker should show up and act like HE is the starting quarterback.   It might go along way for him as other teams keep a watchful eye for a potential trade.  

 

Respectfully disagree...

 

An OTA isn't going to affect his trade value or impact how a team already views him. At all. He has 1,000+ snaps on film. 

 

What it may do is get him a new injury or aggravate a recently surgically repaired shoulder. 

2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Respectfully disagree...

 

An OTA isn't going to affect his trade value or impact how a team already views him. At all. He has 1,000+ snaps on film. 

 

What it may do is get him a new injury or aggravate a recently surgically repaired shoulder. 

Well right now he looks like a whiny, petulant child and not a leader.   I was pro-Baker up until the last few months when the social media stuff started to come out of him.   I suppose we should have known this when he planted the flag at the Shoe.  

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Well right now he looks like a whiny, petulant child and not a leader.   I was pro-Baker up until the last few months when the social media stuff started to come out of him.   I suppose we should have known this when he planted the flag at the Shoe.  

 

But now we get to see what true leadership is like with our new quarterback!  When he sees what he wants, he just reaches out and takes it!  He's not taking no for an answer!  He puts it all out there for all too see, always thrusting, thrusting, thrusting upwards to victory!

1 minute ago, X said:

 

But now we get to see what true leadership is like with our new quarterback!  When he sees what he wants, he just reaches out and takes it!  He's not taking no for an answer!  He puts it all out there for all too see, always thrusting, thrusting, thrusting upwards to victory!

Touche!  Or Touch....?   🤣

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

Well right now he looks like a whiny, petulant child and not a leader.   I was pro-Baker up until the last few months when the social media stuff started to come out of him.   I suppose we should have known this when he planted the flag at the Shoe.  

 

In all seriousness though, I'm not a guy that ever thinks its a good idea to miss OTAs. But I'm not sure the Browns would even let him in a huddle at this point. 

1 hour ago, X said:

 

But now we get to see what true leadership is like with our new quarterback!  When he sees what he wants, he just reaches out and takes it!  He's not taking no for an answer!  He puts it all out there for all too see, always thrusting, thrusting, thrusting upwards to victory!

 

 

fans need to come to grips with the facts that sometimes what makes a great pro athlete are these kinds of qualities, be they for good on the field or bad in civilian life. or both sometimes, ie., tyson was a great, great boxer, but he was sometimes out of control in the real world and in the ring he would bite an ear off.

 

its not always so easy to turn those traits on and off with spoiled, instantly wealthy and sometimes steroid juicing athletes, the browns can only try to reign them in the right direction. no choice but to take that project on now, deshaun is a brown.

 

otoh baker being pouty looks pretty minor compared to that off the field behavior by some teammates, but then so are his talents comparatively. or so we will see.

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

Respectfully disagree...

 

An OTA isn't going to affect his trade value or impact how a team already views him. At all. He has 1,000+ snaps on film. 

 

What it may do is get him a new injury or aggravate a recently surgically repaired shoulder. 

 

 

its not like watson shouldn't be worried about injuries ...

 

 

Injury History

DateLeagueInjuryDetails

Nov 20, 2014Non-NFLKnee ACL Tear Grade 3Watson suffered a torn left ACL in practice. He played with the injury vs. South Carolina on 11/29/14. 

Oct 11, 2014Non-NFLHand Finger Fracture Watson sat out 3 games before returning vs. Georgia Tech. 

Apr 7, 2014Non-NFLShoulder Clavicle Fracture Watson sustained a slight crack in his collarbone during a spring scrimmage. 

Nov 15, 2014Non-NFLKnee LCL Sprain Grade 2Watson suffered a sprained left LCL vs. Georgia Tech. 

Nov 2, 2017NFLKnee ACL Tear Grade 3Watson tore his right ACL in practice. 

Dec 25, 2019NFLBack Lower Lumbar Sprain Watson with back injury was listed as limited participant ahead of the Week 17 game against the Titans. He was active and served as the backup to AJ McCarron in the contest

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

its not like watson shouldn't be worried about injuries ...

 

 

Injury History

DateLeagueInjuryDetails

Nov 20, 2014Non-NFLKnee ACL Tear Grade 3Watson suffered a torn left ACL in practice. He played with the injury vs. South Carolina on 11/29/14. 

Oct 11, 2014Non-NFLHand Finger Fracture Watson sat out 3 games before returning vs. Georgia Tech. 

Apr 7, 2014Non-NFLShoulder Clavicle Fracture Watson sustained a slight crack in his collarbone during a spring scrimmage. 

Nov 15, 2014Non-NFLKnee LCL Sprain Grade 2Watson suffered a sprained left LCL vs. Georgia Tech. 

Nov 2, 2017NFLKnee ACL Tear Grade 3Watson tore his right ACL in practice. 

Dec 25, 2019NFLBack Lower Lumbar Sprain Watson with back injury was listed as limited participant ahead of the Week 17 game against the Titans. He was active and served as the backup to AJ McCarron in the contest

 

Yeah - exactly lol. I hate OTAs

2 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

fans need to come to grips with the facts that sometimes what makes a great pro athlete are these kinds of qualities, be they for good on the field or bad in civilian life. or both sometimes, ie., tyson was a great, great boxer, but he was sometimes out of control in the real world and in the ring he would bite an ear off.

 

its not always so easy to turn those traits on and off with spoiled, instantly wealthy and sometimes steroid juicing athletes, the browns can only try to reign them in the right direction. no choice but to take that project on now, deshaun is a brown.

 

otoh baker being pouty looks pretty minor compared to that off the field behavior by some teammates, but then so are his talents comparatively. or so we will see.

 

I don't get your point.  Whow has no choice? The Browns clearly had a choice not to base the future of the franchise on this guy, but they chose to.  Now Browns fans have a choice- keep rooting or not.  I will not.

2 hours ago, X said:

 

I don't get your point.  Whow has no choice? The Browns clearly had a choice not to base the future of the franchise on this guy, but they chose to.  Now Browns fans have a choice- keep rooting or not.  I will not.

 

 

the browns have no choice. it's not march 20th anymore, since the trade that is water under the bridge. 

 

i didn't want this guy either, moral issues aside, also because he is beat up --- but let's face it if the browns do well no one will care.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

the browns have no choice. it's not march 20th anymore, since the trade that is water under the bridge.

 

They have no choice about the thing they just chose to do?  You are an extraordinary thinker, sir.

58 minutes ago, X said:

 

They have no choice about the thing they just chose to do?  You are an extraordinary thinker, sir.

 

no, they have no choice now about the thing they already did. and its been a month, but you want to remain stuck in the past. try to get up to speed. 

 

look if it all goes the usual way for the browns everyone will continue to have at him for his off and on the field behavior, but if the browns do well, go deep in the playoffs, or … i can’t even say it, but sb … and watson throws for over 300yds and that bullet to njoku to win the big game or whatever, admit it you will be cheering him and all of them on like everyone else. that’s just the way it is.

16 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

no, they have no choice now about the thing they already did. and its been a month, but you want to remain stuck in the past. try to get up to speed. 

 

look if it all goes the usual way for the browns everyone will continue to have at him for his off and on the field behavior, but if the browns do well, go deep in the playoffs, or … i can’t even say it, but sb … and watson throws for over 300yds and that bullet to njoku to win the big game or whatever, admit it you will be cheering him and all of them on like everyone else. that’s just the way it is.

 

Yeah, who can stick to their moral revulsion when those W's start rolling in....

 

We'll all be screaming, "Feed him more massage therapists, we've got a Superbowl to win!"

 

Can't wait.

16 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

no, they have no choice now about the thing they already did. and its been a month, but you want to remain stuck in the past. try to get up to speed. 

Come on, this is garbage. People who are upset with a morally repugnant thing the Browns just did a month ago have every right to still be upset. This isn’t ancient history. If YOU choose to still cheer for them, have at it. If other people choose to not cheer for it, just let it be. I think there is a big difference between a professional athlete who is a jerk and a professional athlete who is credibly accused of being a serial sexual assaulter. 

Not just any massage therapists, but those with questionable documentation, of whom he purposely sought in order that they, based on their vulnerability, would be terrified to come forward. What a charmer.

 

I hope the Browns offensive line have a conversation with each other and recognize their moral responsibilities to the team, the city, and those victimized by sexual predators. 

^ well i would hope so too --- hey i didnt want the guy, but be careful, the odds is you grumblers all will be changing your tunes along with everyone else if and when they win big.

 

and if you think the rest of the nfl players and staff are some kind of moral exemplars just because you don't know everything they do ... come on, or for that matter even like watson when you do know, ie., the ravens ray lewis was a freakin murderer.

 

 

42 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Not just any massage therapists, but those with questionable documentation, of whom he purposely sought in order that they, based on their vulnerability, would be terrified to come forward. What a charmer.

 

I hope the Browns offensive line have a conversation with each other and recognize their moral responsibilities to the team, the city, and those victimized by sexual predators. 

 

And we just walked by the Jim Brown statue and smiled every game day...

^ exactly. at the least -- most revere him.

I wonder if people still revere that old fossil. Besides Jimmy and Dee, I mean they're pretty clear how they feel about women who are assaulted.

Don't know how the Browns are going to do with the cap next year.  They have $178m dedicated to 8 players.  Then they have $12m in void contracts.  That gets them to $190m.  I know they can restructure and carrying cap over but they nonetheless are going to be in a tough position moving forward.  I honestly could see them trading either Teller or Bitonio next year.  Too much money dedicated to guards with a team that is has so much wrapped up in a QB.  Also, our offense will be shifting as well.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

^ well i would hope so too --- hey i didnt want the guy, but be careful, the odds is you grumblers all will be changing your tunes along with everyone else if and when they win big.

 

If that helps you feel better, you can keep repeating it to yourself.

As long as that deviant plays for the Browns, they won't get a single cheer from me. Let 'em go 17-0 and score 100 in the Superbowl. None of it matters.

 

The team and brand are poison.

33 minutes ago, TBideon said:

As long as that deviant plays for the Browns, they won't get a single cheer from me. Let 'em go 17-0 and score 100 in the Superbowl. None of it matters.

 

The team and brand are poison.

 

Not trying to get in an argument - just trying to have a discussion. 

 

I know this is a longshot and not likely. But assume that DW is never convicted of anything related to this, and all of the civil suits against him end in his favor (not settlement, but either voluntary dismissal by the plaintiffs or a trial resulting in favorable verdicts to DW)... Would that change your opinion?

Something something Due Process? something something...

There's just too much smoke and fire with this guy, and we, meaning fans, have allowed celebrities, athletes and politicians to get away with so much damage for too long. Hell, we still do. God knows how many Pittsburgh fans still clamor for Roethlisberger despite him raping at least two women. And the only reason Ray Rice got blackballed was because it was on video; otherwise, he'd still be playing or at least ramping up his career.

 

Cosby, Weinstein, Spacey, Trump...once the accusers reach double digits, it's pretty clear the kind of person you are. And I don't want to see him on and off the field representing the Browns, receiving accolades and cheers, giving talks at charities, starring in commercial and video games, etc.

 

Say what you want for Mayfield, but no one is accusing him of forcing their mouth on his privates.  

 

 

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by TBideon

1 hour ago, X said:

 

If that helps you feel better, you can keep repeating it to yourself.

 

 

'memba when the trumpies boycotted the nfl because of kaepernick? 

 

neither do they.

 

58 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Not trying to get in an argument - just trying to have a discussion. 

 

I know this is a longshot and not likely. But assume that DW is never convicted of anything related to this, and all of the civil suits against him end in his favor (not settlement, but either voluntary dismissal by the plaintiffs or a trial resulting in favorable verdicts to DW)... Would that change your opinion?

 

It might go a long way- but we aren't going to find out this year apparently.  What would certainly change my mind was if some sort of evidence came out that 22 women were somehow all lying about all of this as a part of a grand conspiracy.  That, of course, is unlikely.

 

30 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

'memba when the trumpies boycotted the nfl because of kaepernick? 

 

neither do they.

 

 

You're really comparing Kaepernick's kneeling to bring attention to police shootings of black people to Watson's 22 allegations of varying degrees of sexual impropriety up to and including sexual assault?  Wanna rethink that?

^ the point is not the reasons, its that they came back ... and so will you. 

24 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ the point is not the reasons, its that they came back ... and so will you. 

 

FWIW - my father-in-law hasn't been to a game since Kaepernick... kept his tickets though.

 

I'm not sure if he remembers why he's even angry

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

FWIW - my father-in-law hasn't been to a game since Kaepernick... kept his tickets though.

 

I'm not sure if he remembers why he's even angry

 

 

if he keeps his tix he's still a bigger nfl fan than most defacto, at least as far as ownership is concerned. i mean he coulda sold them to a dam liberal and washed his hands of it or something hardcore h8r.

 

does he watch games or watch espn stuff about the nfl? what do you think he  would do if the browns did umm, real, real well (i can't even say it)?

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Not trying to get in an argument - just trying to have a discussion. 

 

I know this is a longshot and not likely. But assume that DW is never convicted of anything related to this, and all of the civil suits against him end in his favor (not settlement, but either voluntary dismissal by the plaintiffs or a trial resulting in favorable verdicts to DW)... Would that change your opinion?

Yes, that would likely change my opinion. 

 

2 hours ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

Something something Due Process? something something...

Due process is for criminal convictions and is appropriate for when the government is dishing out punishment. My opinions about people do NOT require due process to the extent of government criminal cases. I will give people the benefit of the doubt; in this case, the evidence we know is WAY past that threshold. 

4 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Yes, that would likely change my opinion. 

 

Due process is for criminal convictions and is appropriate for when the government is dishing out punishment. My opinions about people do NOT require due process to the extent of government criminal cases. I will give people the benefit of the doubt; in this case, the evidence we know is WAY past that threshold. 

So no longer a Browns football team related news thread. Got it.

35 minutes ago, stpats44113 said:

So no longer a Browns football team related news thread. Got it.

Huh? Both the original comments and my responses are directly related to the Browns and their recent personnel decisions. 

52 minutes ago, stpats44113 said:

So no longer a Browns football team related news thread. Got it.

 

That's the problem with what the Haslams have done.  For some of us, there is no other salient Browns discussion to be had anymore.

10 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

And we just walked by the Jim Brown statue and smiled every game day...

 

I really do want to know what the difference is to those who supported the Browns knowing that a man who was convicted of assaulting women played for the team vs a man who has not (yet) been convicted has been hired to play for the team. Why does one generate such strong feelings in opposition to the Browns while the other one does not?

9 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I really do want to know what the difference is to those who supported the Browns knowing that a man who was convicted of assaulting women played for the team vs a man who has not (yet) been convicted has been hired to play for the team. Why does one generate such strong feelings in opposition to the Browns while the other one does not?

 

I'm going to get backlash for this - but it's due to two things, imo: 1) Repeated abuses from athletes who think the law or societal etiquette doesn't apply to them; and 2) cultural pressures to be "all or nothing" in your stance on issues related to marginalized individuals. 

 

Emily Roggenburk loudly announced that she would no longer make Browns apparel, support the Browns in general, and that her company was dropping their season tickets. Moments later, I was scrolling her Instagram and found not one, not two, but three pictures of her with Jim Brown - one of which was at her shop for the launch of a new product. Even if the worst of DW's allegations are true - it comes no where near what Jim Brown did, which includes abusing a woman to unilaterally terminate a pregnancy. 

 

There are facts acknowledged by both the Plaintiffs and Defendant that are substantially mitigating. And then there's also the common sense look at the case which indicates that DW went into many of these massages with the assumption that more would happen. His alleged behavior is disgusting, inappropriate, and degrading to those women - and above all, objectively wrong. But the worst of the lawsuits don't allege that he was ever menacing, threatening, or caused any of the Plaintiffs to fear for their safety - he was just creepy and inappropriate. IMO, there are far worse individuals in the league - like Tyreek Hill - who's on the record abusing his wife and son, but that largely get ignored. 

 

Finally, and the most aggravating to me, is the fact that Deshaun Watson avoided being indicted by a grand jury twice. The fact of the matter remains, a black man - successful or otherwise - can get indicted in Texas for JUST. ABOUT. ANYTHING. So we can't on one hand pretend to know that every allegation is true, while ignoring mitigating facts, some of which are really important. 

 

Do I think Deshaun Watson believed he was entitled to sexual interactions with some of these masseuses? Probably. Do I think there are mitigating factors that we refuse to acknowledge because it isn't 100% in line with the "Believe Women" brand? Yes. Would I want my daughter/friend/etc. to date Deshaun? No. We have SOOOO MANY worse individuals and acts right in our face that we blissfully ignore, until an issue becomes a cultural phenomenon and we're forced to signal our position on it outwards. 

 

 

10 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I really do want to know what the difference is to those who supported the Browns knowing that a man who was convicted of assaulting women played for the team vs a man who has not (yet) been convicted has been hired to play for the team. Why does one generate such strong feelings in opposition to the Browns while the other one does not?

 

I think that's a fair enough question, so let me tell you what the difference is, in my eyes. 

 

Jim Brown was a Cleveland Browns legend who we later found out was an awful human being.  He's a part of the team's history, though, with all the ugliness he brings.  The team should have cut ties with him long ago, though, I agree.  A lot of America's founding fathers were also awful human beings- slaveholders, even.  We still venerate them, though that has come up for debate.  Nobody Very few Probably not a majority of people would vote for a slaveholder in 2022.

 

Deshawn Watson was a great player, then it turned out he's likely a total creep.  Before all the dust has settled, the Browns said, "I like the cut of that man's jib, let's build the future of our organization around him, make him the face of our franchise, and structure his contract so that he's covered no matter what we find later".  They're actually structuring his contract to mitigate the damage that a suspension might do to his pay- that's complicity.

 

A further difference, and I admit this is just a personal and selfish reason- the camera cuts to Brown once or twice a game, during which time I feel kind of icky about it.  Deshawn Watson is going to be the focus of the game whenever he is out there- every offensive snap.  He's impossible to ignore.  It's going to feel kind of icky to watch the Browns all the time now.

 

23 minutes ago, X said:

 

I think that's a fair enough question, so let me tell you what the difference is, in my eyes. 

 

Jim Brown was a Cleveland Browns legend who we later found out was an awful human being.  He's a part of the team's history, though, with all the ugliness he brings.  The team should have cut ties with him long ago, though, I agree.  A lot of America's founding fathers were also awful human beings- slaveholders, even.  We still venerate them, though that has come up for debate.  Nobody Very few Probably not a majority of people would vote for a slaveholder in 2022.

 

For me, both Cleveland's Jim Brown and Cincinnati's Pete Rose are prime examples of the struggle to celebrate amazing actions on the field with reprehensible personalities off the field.  

not to mention there is a lot more going on that we don't know about. these 'roided up and spoiled athletes are no choir boys. and people like the joe paterno's continue to cover up for them (it wasn't just jerry sandusky, what do you know it comes out that earlier paterno downplayed and covered up for a serial rapist and later murderer on the team). yet the fans continue to come out.

You guys defending the Browns on here - all people whose opinions I've come to respect over the years- you are basically affirming my decision to no longer watch or support the Browns or the NFL in general.  

3 minutes ago, surfohio said:

You guys defending the Browns on here - all people whose opinions I've come to respect over the years- you are basically affirming my decision to no longer watch or support the Browns or the NFL in general.  

 

I'm not so much defending the Browns - I personally didn't want DW on the team. 

 

I'm just highlighting the inherent hypocrisy related to our reaction to his signing. Which is a larger societal issue than just this single instance, imo. 

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

I'm not so much defending the Browns - I personally didn't want DW on the team. 

 

I'm just highlighting the inherent hypocrisy related to our reaction to his signing. Which is a larger societal issue than just this single instance, imo. 

 

That's a fair point. Larger societal issues are absolutely at play, from subsidizing billionaires for billion dollar stadiums to skyrocketing cost of tickets to outrageous salaries for players and the traumatic brain injuries to name just a few. So I'll add this DW situation is more of a straw that broke the camels back event for me. 

 

It's very true that no problems were apparently known with Jim Brown before he was drafted out of Syracuse by the Browns. So that distinction about "hiring" a player with troubling allegations surrounding them is certainly true in Watson's situation whereas it was not in Jim Brown's. What is interesting to me that, after Jim Brown's allegations and two convictions became known, the Browns decided to make Jim Brown a face of their franchise, a standing he continues to enjoy to this day.

32 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

That's a fair point. Larger societal issues are absolutely at play, from subsidizing billionaires for billion dollar stadiums to skyrocketing cost of tickets to outrageous salaries for players and the traumatic brain injuries to name just a few. So I'll add this DW situation is more of a straw that broke the camels back event for me. 

 

What about the societal issue of innocent until proven guilty?  I don't like the allegations against Mr. Watson but didn't one court already through the case out because there was insufficient evidence?

Are there not too many examples of people that have been wrongly accused/convicted based on insufficient evidence / bad motives (Rubin Carter, the Central Park Five, etc)?

I do not like the allegations but why are people so willing to convict someone that a court isn't

We should probably get back on topic - including myself - and talk about the Browns, not broader societal issues