I was joking around with my friend they are going to have to resort to dollar beers to fill the seats for the last home games.....

 

I was offered free tickets and turned them down to last night's game...I couldn't imagine spending money to see this mess at this point.

Maybe they should have a fan appreciation night where they give away Lerner bobbleheads and 9 irons.

Maybe they should have a fan appreciation night where they give away Lerner bobbleheads and 9 irons.

 

I will take one Mangini booble head and a 3 wood, please!

Unfortunately when you inherit your dads fortune and you dont necessarily have to be a great business man in order to have a fortune...you get randy lerner as an owner.  This is a terrible, terrible organization right now and it starts with the big man.  Just like any other business, if your management is piss poor, then your product will probably be piss poor too.

Agreed! Born on third base thinking he hit a triple! We need an owner who gets what the tradition of the Browns means to the fans/city...someone who not only has the cash to operate, but the love for the game, the city, the fans, the history of the team...and knows the worth in actually bringing back the glory days of the Browns...in a genuine way...and is not out to just use it as another investment. He should have a knowledge of the game and want to go after the best surrounding cast. Don't know if there is such an owner. These fans would show the entire NFL something unlike it has never seen if this team won it all...and that would be worth it to the NFL.... A league, in my opinion, that needs something redeeming. If he knew better, he would see the gold mine in bringing these glory days back...the eventual cash benefits. Maybe its just not worth it to him. At least Model was involved with the team and seemed to give a hoot. Lerner does not strike me as someone who really cares much about this at all.

Why does everyone assume that Lerner does not care?  Why would we assume he likes owning a laughing stock?  Obviously the Browns have had major front office issues, maybe he is part of the problem but I wouldn't know.  Jerry Jones cares about winning but Dallas can keep him, yikes.

 

I DO think the browns need to work harder to resolve the contract issue with Josh Cribbs. 

i think Lerner cares..thats not the issue.  I just think he is a bad business man and isnt good at being an owner.  He inherited MBNA and the browns.  THat doesnt make you a good owner, heck anyone can just take a team.  He just throws money at things like that wil fix the problem. The biggest thing is culture.  Lerner is the one guy who keeps his friends by spending money and buying them things.  We need someone is who actually a good friend and cares a ton.

i think Lerner cares..thats not the issue.  I just think he is a bad business man and isnt good at being an owner.  He inherited MBNA and the browns.  THat doesnt make you a good owner, heck anyone can just take a team.  He just throws money at things like that wil fix the problem. The biggest thing is culture. Lerner is the one guy who keeps his friends by spending money and buying them things.  We need someone is who actually a good friend and cares a ton.

 

well mbna doesn't exist.  and how do you know, with 100% accuracy that the above statement is true?

whatever the company is...

 

 

Proof is in pudding MTS.  He has been to one browns game this year (Chicago)...and caters mostly to his successful Aston Villa team.  Every time things go wrong, which is always he just tries to woo guys with tons of money (Cowher, Holmgren).  That doesnt fix problems.  Culture fixes the problems.  Everything starts at the top.  Guys like Rooney, Craft, Jerry Jones, Dan Gilbert...they are obsessed with winning and know that the best way to make your investment grow is to win.  Larry Dolan doesnt get this either.  He thinks the indians fans want fireworks and bobbleheads.  Thats great and all and may put a few more people in the seats, but this town has shown time and time again the only thing we want is a winner. 

The perfect example of someone who doesn't really care is Mike Brown.  He is perfectly content to have the bengals be average and make his 40-50 million a year.  He has the city and county over a barrel with the stadium deal he got once the Brown's moved, and he just sits back and collects.  Every few years, they contend and all the fans are placated.  Can you believe games don't sell out here?  Mike Brown isn't even buying the extra tickets and distributing them to the needy or veterans, some other business like Kroger's does it.

 

He has no football people running the operation, it is all family.  If he was running the Browns, he would just keep the status quo.  There would not have been the turnover in the coaching ranks.  Palmer or Davis would probably still be the coach.

whatever the company is...

 

 

Proof is in pudding MTS.  He has been to one browns game this year (Chicago)...and caters mostly to his successful Aston Villa team.  Every time things go wrong, which is always he just tries to woo guys with tons of money (Cowher, Holmgren).  That doesnt fix problems.  Culture fixes the problems.  Everything starts at the top.  Guys like Rooney, Craft, Jerry Jones, Dan Gilbert...they are obsessed with winning and know that the best way to make your investment grow is to win.  Larry Dolan doesnt get this either.  He thinks the indians fans want fireworks and bobbleheads.  Thats great and all and may put a few more people in the seats, but this town has shown time and time again the only thing we want is a winner. 

 

Sorry.  Dont buy it.  I don't like it when folks make generalizations, based on their emotional beliefs.

 

None of us are involved in the operations of either team.  When we win we tend to overlook the the operations, win a team is losing we then want to look at every department and place blame, yet have no first hand knowledge of the operations of the company.

 

Show me some first had information.

Please show me first hand information that Randy Lerner really cares about this team and he just isnt collecting money from fans who he knows will come to the games anyway. Deep down i think he cares, but at the surface he doesnt care enough and just isnt good at it. There is no evidence either way to find out, because neither of us know Randy Lerner.  All you can look at is the product that we are buying.  We are buying and have bought a real poor product since Al has died.  Any good owner should be able to turn his company around in 8 years.

Please show me first hand information that Randy Lerner really cares about this team and he just isnt collecting money from fans who he knows will come to the games anyway. Deep down i think he cares, but at the surface he doesnt care enough and just isnt good at it. There is no evidence either way to find out, because neither of us know Randy Lerner.  All you can look at is the product that we are buying.  We are buying and have bought a real poor product since Al has died.  Any good owner should be able to turn his company around in 8 years.

 

Dude you're making the accusations.  Not me.

 

It's like me giving you/your department/division/company a performance review without looking at any internal documents.

 

It's an emotional plea and your monday morning arm chair quarterbacking.

Alright, I'll hope he keeps the team. "maybe things will turn around"

We dont ALWAYS have to be robots with our analysis, do we?  There has to be room for judgment, right?  If i based my opinions on what goes on internally, I will sit and just tell that to myself that "well i dont know whats ACTUALLY going on".  How long are we expected to do that before we can say, you know Randy, its really not working out.

We dont ALWAYS have to be robots with our analysis, do we?  There has to be room for judgment, right?  If i based my opinions on what goes on internally, I will sit and just tell that to myself that "well i dont know whats ACTUALLY going on".  How long are we expected to do that before we can say, you know Randy, its really not working out.

 

the team sucks, yes.  But what are you or I going to really do about it?

 

Once fans stop buying season tickets and I think this year that 10 year initial season buyout is over.  Things must change this year.

 

The owners respond to $$$ that's it.  When CBS is half empty, the lightbulb will go off.

well mbna doesn't exist.  and how do you know, with 100% accuracy that the above statement is true?

 

Actions speak louder than  words. That is why Lerner has earned the frequent assumption that he does not care--at least from me. Maybe he cares, but he does not seem to know what he is doing.

We dont ALWAYS have to be robots with our analysis, do we?  There has to be room for judgment, right?  If i based my opinions on what goes on internally, I will sit and just tell that to myself that "well i dont know whats ACTUALLY going on".  How long are we expected to do that before we can say, you know Randy, its really not working out.

 

Absolutely agree...

 

The bottom line is that if this is a business with a customer base offering a product to them...the bottom line is that the product has sucked lemons! What would that leave for the customer base to conclude? None of them are going to go knock on the doors of every Browns front office personnel person, including chief Randy (if he is even in the building!) to begin a CSI analytical investigation to come up with a criteria that will determine whether or not Lerner, etc cares! This is a judgement call. How does an umpire know with 100% accuracy whether the pitch nipped the outside part of the plate? 

 

When you go to a restaurant and have a meal...the food is so so, borderline bad...the place is rather dirty, like restrooms, windows, etc...and then you're crazy enough to return, but perhaps do so because you have some sort of nostalgic connection with the place...but the food gets worse, the place gets dirtier....and the same owner exists. Would you not begin to form an opinion that he/she just might not care too much anymore about the product that is being presented?

 

The same scenario is analogous to the Browns, which is a business with a customer base, offering a product! Its sometimes really is that simple...and if Lerner is earning this reputation, then that's for him to deal with, not the fans to feel apologetic for him because they simply end up assuming that he does not give a hoot! I assume Lerner does not have much interest in this thing by how he handles himself in an interview...terrible, and body language...and most of all the moves he has made and the final product. Maybe he cares deep down, yes, but this thing just may not be his gig, and if that is the case, then please sell the team to someone who does care.

 

Maybe even Drew Carey would be better! At least he has the heart and soul to start with and that would go a long way so that he will surround himself with those who know what they are doing. And I said "MAYBE" someone like him would make a good owner because he has and gets the heart and soul behind Browns history that Lerner apparently does not seem to have. His dad did, but Randy is another story.

 

But having expressed all this, I do have to wonder why, even anyone with the most money in the world, would enjoy seeing his product, with his name at the top, go out there and be embarrassed week after week. No one likes to be embarrassed. In fact, I don't even think the NFL should allow such a dismal product into the league!

 

Maybe even Drew Carey would be better! At least he has the heart and soul to start with and that would go a long way so that he will surround himself with those who know what they are doing. And I said "MAYBE" someone like him would make a good owner because he has and gets the heart and soul behind Browns history that Lerner apparently does not seem to have. His dad did, but Randy is another story.

 

Have you seen what Drew Carey (even as a minority owner) has done with Seattle Sounders FC of MLS? A city and town that is miles and miles away from his hometown of Cleveland.

If he didn't care, he wouldn't have spent all the money he's spent.  Maybe he's learned a lesson and will go for the football guy to run things.

What exactly do we expect Mr. Lerner to do as an owner?  I don't know what his role really is... except to throw money at quality personnel.  In the case with Mangini, I honestly believe that Mr. Lerner hired him with full confidence that he could get things on track.  As unpopular as Mangini has been... I still think he needs a lot more time than we, the impatient fans have given him.

 

Maybe Mr. Lerner is not a football guy, maybe he knows absolutely nothing.  If he hires good management would that really matter?  The Miami Dolphins are owned by a bunch of pampered celebs... but Bill Parcells is running that show.  So what is the harm in a sugar daddy owner?  Maybe the problem is that he hasn't been vocal enough.  Maybe he needs to come out and say I am here, I care, we are working on it.  Which he has to a small extent.

 

That said, I think it's probably true that BQ was benched to keep him from getting his bonus.  If that's the case then that is on Lerner and is a bad sign.

 

"Just win baby"

I think Lerner cares to an extent.  He realizes there is a problem, and he chucks money at it to try and fix it.  As evident, that is not the solution.  The more seasons pass, the more evident it is he just isnt very good at owning a professional team.  i dont think he is a bad guy, but there is something to be said about culture....and unfortunately the cultue of our team the past two seasons has been off-the-field issues.  Every week on ESPN.com there was a new national headline of something bad about the browns.  If it wasnt players quitting, it was staph infection, or it was running with shoes off, or it was punching people outside of night clubs, or maybe it was getting the best player concussed with no chance to win the game, or cheap shots, or QB controversy, i can go on all day.  There has been really no positive news.  Believe it or not, it starts at the top.

I think Lerner cares to an extent.  He realizes there is a problem, and he chucks money at it to try and fix it.  As evident, that is not the solution.  The more seasons pass, the more evident it is he just isnt very good at owning a professional team.  i dont think he is a bad guy, but there is something to be said about culture....and unfortunately the cultue of our team the past two seasons has been off-the-field issues.  Every week on ESPN.com there was a new national headline of something bad about the browns.  If it wasnt players quitting, it was staph infection, or it was running with shoes off, or it was punching people outside of night clubs, or maybe it was getting the best player concussed with no chance to win the game, or cheap shots, or QB controversy, i can go on all day.  There has been really no positive news.  Believe it or not, it starts at the top.

 

Those stories happen in every team.  View the local paper. 

Yes MTS... and they seem to magnify when a team is as bad as the Browns.  Let me think, Pac Man Jones, Terrell owens, 50% of Cincinnati's team, Jamal Lewis and crack, Ray Lewis' murder mystery and on and on.

 

Jerrah Jones (yes, that is spelled sarcastically) is known for taking in the NFL's problem children. 

Yes MTS... and they seem to magnify when a team is as bad as the Browns.  Let me think, Pac Man Jones, Terrell owens, 50% of Cincinnati's team, Jamal Lewis and crack, Ray Lewis' murder mystery and on and on.

 

Jerrah Jones (yes, that is spelled sarcastically) is known for taking in the NFL's problem children. 

 

Bingo.  However, some fans' passion and love for their team clouds what is really happening and assumptions are then made.

 

Wins less the blow and keep the "chatter" to a minimum, but the bottom line is the browns is not financially our team and we don't know what is going on, on the inside.  All we know is the team is not winning.

^ Sure...dysfunction can be found all over the league....but that does not mean we should feel complacent about our situation--or that it is right. We all know there are issues but not every team is losing as much as we have, so that makes us stand out. We're not even executing basics. I questioned the hiring of Mangini so quickly. I think when you have as much cash as Lerner, you assume throwing the money around will simply "fix it" but he is learning that is not the case.. Not always how much you spend, but sometimes how you spend it and on whom.

 

On a side thought...I sometimes wonder if Paul Brown/Lombardi were alive..sayyy...mid 40's in age...and coaching in this day....  they'd not tolerate the kind of dysfunction that has coaches afraid of players. If you cannot do the job, get lost. Some core philosophies never die.

MTS, maybe I am mistaken...But why do you seem to feel the need to apologize for this poorly performing franchise right now? They need to be held accountable by their customer base. If they are going to treat their fan base as pawns and express how much this is all about being a business...then we need to do the same and treat it like one too. One that delivers an inferior product---and we demand more for our money.

 

When the accountability is not there...standards drop. And this is where we are right now. Its pretty bad, for example, we'd be hysterical over an 8-8 team right now. Ok, so management needs only to reward us with mediocrity to get the support back. Gotta hold these guys accountable and as fans/customers, all we can do is express the dis-content and stop rewarding a well below average product year after year.

 

I know building a team is no quick fix... But how long have we been rebuilding? Since '99, and changing all the time has not helped, and I fully acknowledge that  patience and consistency with letting the coaching staff evolve is important...But I honestly do not think that all these coaching staffs we have had over the years, were ones to stick it out with. All were the wrong people from the get go. Don't know about Mangini though.

 

 

Thus far....If there was ANY one coach I thought we should have just ridden out the bumps with  for a longer time, given a chance to evolve and be patient with.... it would have been Coach Davis. And this is not to say he would have been a good coach either... Just saying which coach deserved more patience in my opinion, that's all.  Palmer..No.. Crennel.. Hell no....

 

Remember though, this is just entertainment...Not foreign policy making, but geezz.. If we're going to be entertained, it may as well be fun..and its no fun watching exactly the same thing week after week. 

MTS, maybe I am mistaken...But why do you seem to feel the need to apologize for this poorly performing franchise right now? They need to be held accountable by their customer base. If they are going to treat their fan base as pawns and express how much this is all about being a business...then we need to do the same and treat it like one too. One that delivers an inferior product---and we demand more for our money.

 

When the accountability is not there...standards drop. And this is where we are right now. Its pretty bad, for example, we'd be hysterical over an 8-8 team right now. Ok, so management needs only to reward us with mediocrity to get the support back. Gotta hold these guys accountable and as fans/customers, all we can do is express the dis-content and stop rewarding a well below average product year after year.

 

I know building a team is no quick fix... But how long have we been rebuilding? Since '99, and changing all the time has not helped, and I fully acknowledge that  patience and consistency with letting the coaching staff evolve is important...But I honestly do not think that all these coaching staffs we have had over the years, were ones to stick it out with. All were the wrong people from the get go. Don't know about Mangini though.

 

 

Thus far....If there was ANY one coach I thought we should have just ridden out the bumps with  for a longer time, given a chance to evolve and be patient with.... it would have been Coach Davis. And this is not to say he would have been a good coach either... Just saying which coach deserved more patience in my opinion, that's all)  Palmer..No.. Crennel.. Hell no....

 

Remember though, this is just entertainment...Not foreign policy making, but geezz.. If we're going to be entertained, it may as well be fun..and its no fun watching exactly the same thing week after week. 

 

I'm not appologizing, I'm saying Lerner wont "get it" until fans no longer buy season tickets and local company's stop buying suites.

^Exactly! And maybe that is the stuff we will have to go through to make him get it. It is not being 'disloyal' It is being practical and sort of protesting. If there has been any disloyalty around here for years it has been on their part for us having endured this tapestry of grotesquery. Don't you think so?

^Exactly! And maybe that is the stuff we will have to go through to make him get it. It is not being 'disloyal' It is being practical and sort of protesting. If there has been any disloyalty around here for years it has been on their part for us having endured this tapestry of grotesquery. Don't you think so?

 

Agreed.  My neice has had season tickets since she was five.  She wont be getting tickets next year!

I'm not appologizing, I'm saying Lerner wont "get it" until fans no longer buy season tickets and local company's stop buying suites.

 

I can't think of a sadder commentary on our leadership.

I'm not appologizing, I'm saying Lerner wont "get it" until fans no longer buy season tickets and local company's stop buying suites.

 

I can't think of a sadder commentary on our leadership.

 

It's teh truth.  money talks.  there are other equally stinky teams in the NFL, NBA and MLB.  It all cycles. 

Wow... so far.

Wow... so far.

 

45 minutes to play.  The Browns will find a way to make this close or this is the start of a winning streak!  LMAO!!!  >:D

Wow... so far.

 

45 minutes to play.   The Browns will find a way to make this close or this is the start of a winning streak! LMAO!!!   >:D

Even if they lose, that was still the best quarter they've played in years.

Wow... so far.

 

45 minutes to play.  The Browns will find a way to make this close or this is the start of a winning streak!  LMAO!!!  >:D

Even if they lose, that was still the best quarter they've played in years.

 

The only thing that counts is a "w" in the win column!    ;)

(cough, cough)  IIRC, we lose by an average of 12 points on the road.

Its official...  They're now the worst team in football hands down; perhaps the worst the league has ever seen.... I'll trade any team for this garbage. The league should not even allow this level of coaching/playing to represent it. Sorry, I just find it inexcusable...rebuilding or not.

Yay!!

I am actually glad.  This was a key loss in terms of draft position

 

Yes, there were a lot of positives with the defense last week, and the offense this week.

What the heck was that!?

What the heck was that!?

 

Another "L" in the loss column!

Does anyone think we should take Tim Tebow in the first round in the draft?

Does anyone think we should take Tim Tebow in the first round in the draft?

While I'm not a big fan of BQ or DA, I'd rather we take a big running back that can replace Lewis. If we had a reasonable running game it would make any QB's job that much easier. An ability to run would mean lighter coverage for the receivers downfield, which would make it easier to make passes.

I am actually glad.  This was a key loss in terms of draft position

:ROFL: Catching up on a thread that I seldom read

Does anyone think we should take Tim Tebow in the first round in the draft?

 

I'd pick an offensive linemen early.  Offensive linemen are the only early draft picks we've had any success with recently.  A stud linebacker would also be nice...

alex mack was not exactly a home run...i'd go the route of RB like Grumpy said...i like Cal's Best personally...make them respect the run....then they have to consider the pass, all of which keeps the offense ont he field

I think Lerner cares to an extent.  He realizes there is a problem, and he chucks money at it to try and fix it.  As evident, that is not the solution.  The more seasons pass, the more evident it is he just isnt very good at owning a professional team.  i dont think he is a bad guy, but there is something to be said about culture....and unfortunately the cultue of our team the past two seasons has been off-the-field issues.  Every week on ESPN.com there was a new national headline of something bad about the browns.  If it wasnt players quitting, it was staph infection, or it was running with shoes off, or it was punching people outside of night clubs, or maybe it was getting the best player concussed with no chance to win the game, or cheap shots, or QB controversy, i can go on all day.  There has been really no positive news.  Believe it or not, it starts at the top.

 

Those stories happen in every team.  View the local paper. 

 

Um, the Saints, Colts and Vikings don't and most of the league has good to go with the bad. We do not.

I think Lerner cares to an extent.  He realizes there is a problem, and he chucks money at it to try and fix it.  As evident, that is not the solution.  The more seasons pass, the more evident it is he just isnt very good at owning a professional team.  i dont think he is a bad guy, but there is something to be said about culture....and unfortunately the cultue of our team the past two seasons has been off-the-field issues.  Every week on ESPN.com there was a new national headline of something bad about the browns.  If it wasnt players quitting, it was staph infection, or it was running with shoes off, or it was punching people outside of night clubs, or maybe it was getting the best player concussed with no chance to win the game, or cheap shots, or QB controversy, i can go on all day.  There has been really no positive news.  Believe it or not, it starts at the top.

 

Those stories happen in every team.  View the local paper. 

 

Um, the Saints, Colts and Vikings don't and most of the league has good to go with the bad. We do not.

 

Check the papers when those teams were having bad seasons.  ::)  The only team that wont have an issue is the colts, since they perform well in the regular season year over year.