January 7, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Gramarye said: This and field goal kicking. Baker is taking the heat here, quite possibly with some justification even taking his injury into account--but we'll never really know how many games we could have won with a better kicker, which would change people's opinions of Baker, too. Not just the games that we lost by less than 3, but others that were close that would have had changed dynamics in later quarters if we had 3 more points on the scoreboard. The problem with Stefanski's decision-making is even when the kicker had yet to miss any kicks (outside of the first one being blocked--not the kicker's fault), Stefanski still went with the "go for a touchdown" thinking, even when it was a bigger distance to score or get a first down. Not taking opportunities to score 3 points, sometimes more than once, would have turned multiple games that the Browns needed to score twice or get a win by being within a field goal as the game was ending made a world of difference. It would have given the Browns a much better chance of winning more games, if flat-out winning them. Who knows what might have happened if the "Scottish Hammer (hands)" didn't fumble against K.C. There is no way that Mayfield can be blamed for these calls.
January 7, 20223 yr 26 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said: The problem with Stefanski's decision-making is even when the kicker had yet to miss any kicks (outside of the first one being blocked--not the kicker's fault), Stefanski still went with the "go for a touchdown" thinking, even when it was a bigger distance to score or get a first down. Not taking opportunities to score 3 points, sometimes more than once, would have turned multiple games that the Browns needed to score twice or get a win by being within a field goal as the game was ending made a world of difference. It would have given the Browns a much better chance of winning more games, if flat-out winning them. Who knows what might have happened if the "Scottish Hammer (hands)" didn't fumble against K.C. There is no way that Mayfield can be blamed for these calls. Right ... when I said "others that were close that would have had changed dynamics in later quarters if we had 3 more points on the scoreboard," I should have added "... or confidence that we could get 3 more points on the scoreboard from outside the red zone."
January 7, 20223 yr 28 minutes ago, Gramarye said: Right ... when I said "others that were close that would have had changed dynamics in later quarters if we had 3 more points on the scoreboard," I should have added "... or confidence that we could get 3 more points on the scoreboard from outside the red zone." My point was, unless Stefanski had doubts about McLaughlin due to what he saw in practice, he passed on going for field goals when the kicker had given no indication of troubles kicking during game time up to that point. In some cases, those field goals would have been shorter than extra point attempts. Even when McLaughlin was having problems with mid-range field goals, he bypassed them on what would be short attempts. If he lacked that sort of confidence in him, then he shouldn't have been the kicker, period. Perhaps he had an overconfidence on his offense scoring more, but when the conservative nature of the play calling came into play, scoring went way down. Sometimes, a coach gets fixated on a certain strategy. Don't know if it will ultimately cost the Ravens this season, but too many time Harbaugh went for the 2-point conversion and got burned. Edited January 7, 20223 yr by LifeLongClevelander
January 8, 20223 yr if i’m another team i ain’t paying him $19M - unh uh: https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/33012753
January 18, 20223 yr In the absence of structure, some men act like a boy "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 18, 20223 yr 22 minutes ago, KJP said: In the absence of structure, some men act like a boy Or, their pre-existing mental and/or substance abuse issues are allowed to surface.
January 20, 20223 yr On 1/18/2022 at 11:30 AM, Cleburger said: Or, their pre-existing mental and/or substance abuse issues are allowed to surface. Yet, there are going to be people who are going to be all-in keeping McDowell on the team and/or bring aboard Deshaun Watson.
January 20, 20223 yr Malik McDowell seems more like a substance abuse issue than Watson's alleged predatory behavior. I'm not "all in" on bringing McDowell back, but I don't see it as being on the same level as what Watson is accused of.
January 21, 20223 yr 5 hours ago, X said: Malik McDowell seems more like a substance abuse issue than Watson's alleged predatory behavior. I'm not "all in" on bringing McDowell back, but I don't see it as being on the same level as what Watson is accused of. McDowell has had quite a few problems in his past. The ATV incident was one thing, but he also committed assault, resisted arrest, received stolen property and had an OVI. Those are the known incidents. These problems led to him serving 11 months in jail. Collectively, Watson has more incidents and is a predator, but McDowell has a pattern as well. Resisting arrest, assault and causing significant injury to a police officer coupled with a past history that included jail time will weigh heavily with his case as it advances through the legal system. Wouldn't be surprised if he does serve some substantial jail time. If the legal proceedings are concluded by next summer and by some wild chance McDowell avoids jail time, he most certainly will face a suspension (perhaps a lengthy one) by the NFL. Based on history and the nature of what Watson did, he will be facing a lengthy suspension as well. Don't expect either one to play in the NFL for the 2022 season.
February 3, 20223 yr ^So much for that potentially: Hue Jackson accuses Cleveland Browns of incentivizing losing during 2016, '17 football seasons Former NFL coach Hue Jackson discusses his claims that he was offered bonuses by Browns ownership for losing. Former Cleveland Browns coach Hue Jackson said Wednesday on ESPN's SportsCenter that the team had a "four-year plan" that incentivized losing during the first two years which led to his 1-31 record during the 2016 and 2017 seasons. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33202029/hue-jackson-accuses-cleveland-browns-paying-tank-2016-17%3fplatform=amp
February 3, 20223 yr The Browns didn't have to pay Hue to tank - he was perfectly capable of doing that on his own.
February 3, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said: Haslem has been a train wreck of an owner. not at all surprised if this is true Jimmy should let Dee run the Browns for a while. She's been the public face of the Haslam's for the Columbus Crew and they won the MLS Cup in 2020(!)
February 3, 20223 yr 12 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: ^So much for that potentially: Hue Jackson accuses Cleveland Browns of incentivizing losing during 2016, '17 football seasons Former NFL coach Hue Jackson discusses his claims that he was offered bonuses by Browns ownership for losing. Former Cleveland Browns coach Hue Jackson said Wednesday on ESPN's SportsCenter that the team had a "four-year plan" that incentivized losing during the first two years which led to his 1-31 record during the 2016 and 2017 seasons. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33202029/hue-jackson-accuses-cleveland-browns-paying-tank-2016-17%3fplatform=amp Yes hue made a fool of himself on live TV and once again tried to steal the spotlight from someone like Flores who actually was paid. He denied ever getting paid to lose. Hue’s smoking gun seemed to be that they kept him for another season after going 1-31. Hue you were awful, we all know.
February 3, 20223 yr 29 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said: Yes hue made a fool of himself on live TV and once again tried to steal the spotlight from someone like Flores who actually was paid. He denied ever getting paid to lose. Hue’s smoking gun seemed to be that they kept him for another season after going 1-31. Hue you were awful, we all know. Flores did not accept payments to lose. He was offered them though. Hue Jackson's record and footers aside, could be bad if proven or brings to light other behind the scenes scandals Herr and elsewhere.
February 3, 20223 yr Just now, Mov2Ohio said: Flores did not accept payments to lose. He was offered them though. Hue Jackson's record and footers aside, could be bad if proven or brings to light other behind the scenes scandals Herr and elsewhere. Sorry I was typing too fast. Meant to say was offered to be paid.
February 3, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Columbo said: Jimmy should let Dee run the Browns for a while. She's been the public face of the Haslam's for the Columbus Crew and they won the MLS Cup in 2020(!) They may have won the cup in 2020 but one of their first big moves after "Saving the Crew," was to rebrand and eliminate the "Crew". Dee seems to be like Jimmy and be a bit impetuous in their decision making and have to walk back things a lot. Also it is relevant to point out that the Haslams have contributed greatly to the mess and struggles of the University of Tennessee athletic program over the last 15 years.
February 3, 20223 yr 12 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said: They may have won the cup in 2020 but one of their first big moves after "Saving the Crew," was to rebrand and eliminate the "Crew". Dee seems to be like Jimmy and be a bit impetuous in their decision making and have to walk back things a lot. Also it is relevant to point out that the Haslams have contributed greatly to the mess and struggles of the University of Tennessee athletic program over the last 15 years. I'm just saying that Dee Haslam seems to be very hands-off with on-the-field decisions and lets team management manage the team - which is what any good owner should do. The Crew rebrand was a real boner decision. But the new downtown stadium was an excellent decision. How much credit/blame the Haslam's get for each one is unclear. Wasn't aware that the Haslam's were involved with the University of Tennessee - but big booster meddling does help explain why UT is such a dumpster fire(!)
February 3, 20223 yr 3 minutes ago, Columbo said: I'm just saying that Dee Haslam seems to be very hands-off with on-the-field decisions and lets team management manage the team - which is what any good owner should do. The Crew rebrand was a real boner decision. But the new downtown stadium was an excellent decision. How much credit/blame the Haslam's get for each one is unclear. Wasn't aware that the Haslam's were involved with the University of Tennessee - but big booster meddling does help explain why UT is such a dumpster fire(!) Re the Crew: Given that the Haslam's did not really come into the picture until late 2018/2019, could you argue the 2020 championship was built by the former ownership team. Also, regarding the stadium, they had been pushing the downtown stadium site for a number of years and it was pretty much teed up by the time the Haslam's bought the team. Re University of Tenn: The Haslam family and Pilot Corporation are THE driving force and boosters behind the Tennessee football and basketball programs. Whenever you hear about recruits getting money, or dysfunction in the Athletic Department, there is usually the stench of a member of the Haslam family emanating pretty close to the scandal.
February 3, 20223 yr 18 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said: Re the Crew: Given that the Haslam's did not really come into the picture until late 2018/2019, could you argue the 2020 championship was built by the former ownership team. Also, regarding the stadium, they had been pushing the downtown stadium site for a number of years and it was pretty much teed up by the time the Haslam's bought the team. One final correction re the Crew: You're right that the downtown stadium site was available and pretty much teed up for the Haslam. But without the Haslam's paying for the stadium, it still might not have happened. But you're wrong about the team roster for 2020 MLS Cup winner. Under Haslam ownership, the team brought in a new head coach and a new GM. And that new GM, who was the former GM of the 2019 Cup winning Toronto FC, brought in the key player for the 2020 Crew season, new attacking midfielder Lucas Zelarayan - who was acquired via a team-record transfer fee. So the Haslam money, when directed by professionals who know what they are doing, can be effective. That is what I was saying about the Browns situation. And Brutus, please don't reply with any further "corrections" about the Crew. Because, (1) you will never know more about the Columbus Crew then I do; and (2) this is a Browns thread, so let's focus on the Browns.
February 3, 20223 yr 17 minutes ago, Columbo said: And Brutus, please don't reply with any further "corrections" about the Crew. Because, (1) you will never know more about the Columbus Crew then I do; and (2) this is a Browns thread, so let's focus on the Browns. Just one quick point. - I did not try and correct you on the Crew. I was simply asking the question of "could you argue that" which is different then "I would argue that" or "a reasonable person would argue" - As an outsider, I was merely asking you if it could be argued that 2020 was not the result of Haslam but the prior ownership and you clarified that point. There was no intent to debate you regarding Crew on field matters. Merely was commenting on the Haslams and their sordid ownership of Browns and Univ ot Tennessee involvment.
February 3, 20223 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: To Hue's defense, starting Tyrod when you have a new rookie was not unprecented. That was the right decision until Mayfield was able to get comfortable with the NFL. Also remember that Cleveland did not have the O-Line in 2018 that they had in 2020. Hue had his process and I would have been interested to see how it played out if he was able to caoch the whole season. My guess is that the Browns would have been around 6-10. Does that save his job at that point, I dont know. It was not far off from where they ended up. Also worth noting that the spark and excitement that was provided after Hue was fired did not carry over into 2019 as they failed to make the playoffs. It showed Kitchens was incompetent in that process as he had the keys to a Cadillac and crashed it. Hue never had the weapons Kitchens had.
March 8, 20223 yr trotter at espn on the browns off season work -- basically, get a wr and free agent qb and keep clowney: https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/29022/cleveland-browns-nfl-offseason-preview-sorting-baker-mayfields-future-a-top-priority
March 13, 20223 yr Browns aquire Amari Cooper for 5th rounder and a swap of 6th rounders with Dallas. Also are rumored to be after Deshaun Watson.
March 13, 20223 yr Dear God I hope he doesn't end up here. Makes me sick to see everybody going gaga over him now because he won't be criminally charged- never mind the two dozen civil suits. On a practical level, he's going to bring tons of baggage with him to wherever he goes even with the criminal charges thrown out. On a moral/character level.....
March 14, 20223 yr Browns release Jarvis Landry. https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2022/03/browns-release-jarvis-landry-their-five-time-pro-bowl-receiver-in-wake-of-amari-cooper-trade.html
March 15, 20223 yr On 3/12/2022 at 8:54 PM, X said: Dear God I hope he doesn't end up here. Makes me sick to see everybody going gaga over him now because he won't be criminally charged- never mind the two dozen civil suits. On a practical level, he's going to bring tons of baggage with him to wherever he goes even with the criminal charges thrown out. On a moral/character level..... This was CBS Sports trade value for Watson with the Browns: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/deshaun-watson-trade-rumors-projecting-potential-offers-from-buccaneers-panthers-saints-other-teams/ Projected offer: 2022 first-round pick (No. 13), 2023 first-round pick, 2022 second-round pick, 2023 second-round pick, 2022 sixth-round pick, QB Baker Mayfield, RB Kareem Hunt, TE David Njoku
March 15, 20223 yr 23 minutes ago, stpats44113 said: This was CBS Sports trade value for Watson with the Browns: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/deshaun-watson-trade-rumors-projecting-potential-offers-from-buccaneers-panthers-saints-other-teams/ Projected offer: 2022 first-round pick (No. 13), 2023 first-round pick, 2022 second-round pick, 2023 second-round pick, 2022 sixth-round pick, QB Baker Mayfield, RB Kareem Hunt, TE David Njoku Pass!! I don’t want to hang my soul in the closet to cheer for the browns. Edited March 15, 20223 yr by mkeller234
March 15, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, mkeller234 said: Pass!! I don’t want to hang my soul in the closet to cheer for the browns. Same. I also feel like we really haven’t seen Baker Mayfield’s true potential.
March 15, 20223 yr And on a practical level, we'd be knee capping the future of the team by sitting out the first two rounds of the next two drafts over this guy. We'd get the qb, but where would we get the receivers we so badly need? We need at least two more. They won't be coming via the draft or via using picks at capital in a trade.
March 15, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, stpats44113 said: Same. I also feel like we really haven’t seen Baker Mayfield’s true potential. A healthy Baker Mayfield and an offense that took off after Beckham got hurt in 2020 got the Browns into the playoffs. They beat the Steelers and if were not for the fumble by Rashard Higgins in the Kansas City playoff game, the Browns are then playing in the AFC Championship game. There is no way the team can be honestly judged when at times they were playing with their 5th and 6th offensive tackles, a versatile back (Hunt) hurt for a large portion of the year and a beat up quarterback while having a wide receiver who was expected to be a major contributor who was more interested planning his exit strategy even before training camp began. Edited March 15, 20223 yr by LifeLongClevelander
March 15, 20223 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 15, 20223 yr I'm sick over them just trying this hard, and losing respect by the minute for a team I've rooted for for a lifetime. It seems like they are already gutting the team to clear the cap space just to be able to make an offer. Maybe if they really want to lure Watson, they should try to sell him on the quality and lax rule enforcement of our local massage parlor scene. Gross.
March 15, 20223 yr Not trying to be a d-bag... But this isn't what the media is making it out to be. The Browns are there for due diligence purposes. I'm friends with someone who went to Houston today for these purposes and spoke with him about it. The meetings with Watson include a full disclosure of non-public material. Andrew Berry, in particular, is a man of substantial moral character - and one of the most genuine human beings you could ever come across. He's also an NFL GM. He's down there to see if there's any possible way that those two things can be synergistic if Watson is viable. He's doing his job. In order for this to get even close to the point of a concrete proposal, Berry would need to see non-public evidence that clearly absolves Watson of wrongdoing - and I think that's highly unlikely at this point.
March 15, 20223 yr 15 minutes ago, X said: I'm sick over them just trying this hard, and losing respect by the minute for a team I've rooted for for a lifetime. It seems like they are already gutting the team to clear the cap space just to be able to make an offer. Maybe if they really want to lure Watson, they should try to sell him on the quality and lax rule enforcement of our local massage parlor scene. Gross. For all of these fans of any team wanting to get Watson, they need to ask themselves: Did 22 women fabricate their stories? And if the stories weren't fabricated, how would they feel if what Watson did was to their wife, mother, girlfriend, sister, daughter, friend or co-worker? For those who did not fabricate their stories, they fall into one or more of those categories. Would the fans who knew somebody victimized in that way welcome him in open arms and purchase his jersey/gear? Would somebody want their child to idolize him? After Watson, who is next? Bring in Ray Rice for a tryout? For some team to go out and get Watson in a trade, it would cost 2 first round and 2 second round draft picks, perhaps 3 first round picks, other picks and players. The league can still suspend him. Lots of draft capital locked up in a player that may not be able to play for part or all of a season. Missing that many games is bound to lead to a poor record. Aside from the loss of a team's morals in acquiring Watson, at least one of those draft picks could be a lost high first round pick, too.
March 15, 20223 yr 21 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said: For all of these fans of any team wanting to get Watson, they need to ask themselves: Did 22 women fabricate their stories? And if the stories weren't fabricated, how would they feel if what Watson did was to their wife, mother, girlfriend, sister, daughter, friend or co-worker? For those who did not fabricate their stories, they fall into one or more of those categories. Would the fans who knew somebody victimized in that way welcome him in open arms and purchase his jersey/gear? Would somebody want their child to idolize him? After Watson, who is next? Bring in Ray Rice for a tryout? For some team to go out and get Watson in a trade, it would cost 2 first round and 2 second round draft picks, perhaps 3 first round picks, other picks and players. The league can still suspend him. Lots of draft capital locked up in a player that may not be able to play for part or all of a season. Missing that many games is bound to lead to a poor record. Aside from the loss of a team's morals in acquiring Watson, at least one of those draft picks could be a lost high first round pick, too. I've already said what I said above, so I won't repeat it here. And let me preface this by saying, it's overwhelmingly likely that Deshaun Watson engaged in sexually abusive conduct. It's also overwhelmingly likely that the Browns will not sign him. Having said that, I have two points: 1. As an attorney, I've seen plaintiff's attorneys recruit classes of over 50 individuals with meritless claims, especially in instances when there are deep pockets involved. One of which actually resulted in the attorney retiring before being disbarred. Again, it's overwhelmingly likely that these women are not lying. 2. If non-public information is being offered in these meetings, it would be malpractice of the Browns not to go to Houston. Either we believe in due process, or we don't. The fact of the matter is, there's a pretty low bar for grand juries to indict, and this matter was presented to a grand jury and no indictment was made. I know the civil claims still exist, but if allegations alone are enough to have someone barred for life from their career, then I'm not sure we'll ever disagree on this point. Again - the overwhelming likelihood is that Deshaun Watson was at best creepy and at worst a sexual predator. But if you're against the Browns doing their due diligence because of accusations, regardless of the size of the class, then due process ain't your homie.
March 15, 20223 yr 57 minutes ago, YABO713 said: Not trying to be a d-bag... But this isn't what the media is making it out to be. The Browns are there for due diligence purposes. I'm friends with someone who went to Houston today for these purposes and spoke with him about it. The meetings with Watson include a full disclosure of non-public material. Andrew Berry, in particular, is a man of substantial moral character - and one of the most genuine human beings you could ever come across. He's also an NFL GM. He's down there to see if there's any possible way that those two things can be synergistic if Watson is viable. He's doing his job. In order for this to get even close to the point of a concrete proposal, Berry would need to see non-public evidence that clearly absolves Watson of wrongdoing - and I think that's highly unlikely at this point. Not being a d-bag at all. If this is pro forma, that makes me feel a lot better.
March 16, 20223 yr 13 hours ago, YABO713 said: Not trying to be a d-bag... But this isn't what the media is making it out to be. The Browns are there for due diligence purposes. I'm friends with someone who went to Houston today for these purposes and spoke with him about it. The meetings with Watson include a full disclosure of non-public material. Andrew Berry, in particular, is a man of substantial moral character - and one of the most genuine human beings you could ever come across. He's also an NFL GM. He's down there to see if there's any possible way that those two things can be synergistic if Watson is viable. He's doing his job. In order for this to get even close to the point of a concrete proposal, Berry would need to see non-public evidence that clearly absolves Watson of wrongdoing - and I think that's highly unlikely at this point. This originally made me feel better about the process, then I saw the following article on Twitter -https://www.profootballnetwork.com/if-baker-mayfield-is-traded-what-nfl-team-is-his-preferred-landing-spot/ "The Browns are currently courting Deshaun Watson and finished their meeting with Watson in Houston on Tuesday afternoon, according to sources who spoke to PFN Insider Aaron Wilson. Pauline reported that he was told Browns owner Jimmy Haslam has been the driving force in the Browns’ attempt to bring Watson to Cleveland, as he believes the soon-to-be-former Houston Texan is the missing piece of the Super Bowl puzzle." I believe Berry wouldn't follow through with this for the reasons you outlined above. I do not believe Jimmy has those same restraints... I thought he learned his lesson and was done interfering.
March 16, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Luke_S said: This originally made me feel better about the process, then I saw the following article on Twitter -https://www.profootballnetwork.com/if-baker-mayfield-is-traded-what-nfl-team-is-his-preferred-landing-spot/ "The Browns are currently courting Deshaun Watson and finished their meeting with Watson in Houston on Tuesday afternoon, according to sources who spoke to PFN Insider Aaron Wilson. Pauline reported that he was told Browns owner Jimmy Haslam has been the driving force in the Browns’ attempt to bring Watson to Cleveland, as he believes the soon-to-be-former Houston Texan is the missing piece of the Super Bowl puzzle." I believe Berry wouldn't follow through with this for the reasons you outlined above. I do not believe Jimmy has those same restraints... I thought he learned his lesson and was done interfering. Even if I concede that's true to a degree... the Browns never even proposed a trade. The rumor re: Houston pre-approving trade proposals isn't true. Edited March 16, 20223 yr by YABO713
March 16, 20223 yr ^Now having said the above, I'm curious what a trade would look like, if it got to that stage... It would have to be at least two first rounders?
March 16, 20223 yr 22 minutes ago, YABO713 said: Even if I concede that's true to a degree... the Browns never even proposed a trade. The rumor re: Houston pre-approving trade proposals isn't true. Glad that rumor isn't true. Still concerned about Jimmy's meddling though.
March 16, 20223 yr 15 minutes ago, Luke_S said: Glad that rumor isn't true. Still concerned about Jimmy's meddling though. ...it's a fair concern
March 16, 20223 yr It wouldn't surprise me if Haslam is pushing for Watson. Haslam is a sleaze himself. I wish he'd sell the team and gtfo of Cleveland.
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