14 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

What about the societal issue of innocent until proven guilty?  I don't like the allegations against Mr. Watson but didn't one court already through the case out because there was insufficient evidence?

Are there not too many examples of people that have been wrongly accused/convicted based on insufficient evidence / bad motives (Rubin Carter, the Central Park Five, etc)?

I do not like the allegations but why are people so willing to convict someone that a court isn't

 

That's a legal standard of course. Nobody can convict the guy but people are free to make judgment calls on whether to support or not support some person or entity.

 

Same goes for Michael Vick. He paid his debt to society legally speaking, but people are absolutely entitled to not support the guy or the NFL team that makes him the face of the organization.

 

I remember there were times Tony Rizzo would casually mention how much Vick could help the Browns without any trace of irony. A significant amount of callers were in agreement with him. Could you imagine, Michael Vick in the Dawg Pound? 

Edited April 22, 20223 yr by surfohio

yeah, so i'll start -- are the browns going to go get clowney back?

 

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/20/jadeveon-clowney-browns-rumors-nfl-draft/

 

too soon?

6 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

yeah, so i'll start -- are the browns going to go get clowney back?

 

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/20/jadeveon-clowney-browns-rumors-nfl-draft/

 

too soon?

 

His value add dropped a little bit with Winovich getting added. It would be nice though. 

draft day picks — here they are:

 

 

Cleveland Browns (7 picks)

 

Round 2: No. 44
Round 3: No. 78
Round 3: No. 99 (special compensatory selection)
Round 4: No. 118
Round 6: No. 202 (from Dallas)
Round 7: No. 223 (from Detroit)
Round 7: 246 (from Buffalo)

so glad they got cade york the top draft rated lsu kicker.

 

the rest meh, but we will see.

 

the first pick emerson is an interesting cb tough guy.

 

no issues with the position picks its just the nfl ready talent level questions. as always.

 

pretty happy overall they did best they could here in an unsung draft.

an off season #17 middle of the road power ranking & who benefitted - via espn:

 

17. Cleveland Browns

 

Post-free agency ranking: 16

 

Player who benefited most from draft: WR Donovan Peoples-Jones

 

The Browns entered the draft without a first-round pick, then traded out of the second round despite a need at wide receiver. Cleveland finally added one near the end of the third round, selecting David Bell from Purdue. Bell, who was ultra-productive in college, could play a big role in the Browns' offense. But he will likely be operating out of the slot and in underneath coverage. That should allow Peoples-Jones to remain a starter opposite Amari Cooper. And though the Browns could still add another receiver, they will be counting on DPJ to play significant snaps next season. -- Jake Trotter

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33899053/nfl-power-rankings-2022-offseason-1-32-poll-plus-players-benefited-most-draft-trades

 

Wait, I thought Deshaun Watson made us immediate Superbowl contenders.  I thought that was why he was worth all the baggage.  So we sold our soul to be mid pack?  The Browns are just a pathetic joke, man.

44 minutes ago, X said:

Wait, I thought Deshaun Watson made us immediate Superbowl contenders.  I thought that was why he was worth all the baggage.  So we sold our soul to be mid pack?  The Browns are just a pathetic joke, man.

It has been stated that the punishment of Trevor Bauer, with MLB suspending him for 2 YEARS, could very well have a bearing on the suspension for Watson.  If that is indeed the case, the draft picks for 2022 and 2023 could be very high first round picks.  All he is turning out to be is a public relations disaster, cost a lot in draft capital and a boat anchor on the salary cap.  Definitely a really bad pathetic joke.  

What a league- Robert Kraft gets caught… on tape… and has nothing happen to him because he’s an owner (case dismissed on a technicality, charges weren’t dropped). Watson has no criminal charges, no indictments… but could be suspended since he’s a player.

 

Frustrating that those with the money make the rules, and control the narrative to a degree.

I didn't used to be a Patriots fan, so I guess I'll just continue not being a Patriots fan.  And I'm not going to cry a river for the "little guy" when the "little guy" is a multimillionaire who just signed for $230 million guaranteed.

1 hour ago, X said:

Wait, I thought Deshaun Watson made us immediate Superbowl contenders.  I thought that was why he was worth all the baggage.  So we sold our soul to be mid pack?  The Browns are just a pathetic joke, man.

 

Lol he did. 

 

Again, I'm against the signing - but the Browns offense is absolutely elite with him. An ESPN pre-season power ranking isn't exactly an iron clad prediction machine. The same had the Bengals at 29, the Pats at 19, the Chargers at 17, and the Seahawks at 8. 

 

I think I've shared this story, but when I asked my buddy what his front office would've given up for Deshaun Watson (baggage included), he said 3 first rounders, without a doubt. 

 

Again, the baggage is an unpredictable variable, but Deshaun Watson is an elite, Super Bowl level quarterback. 

On 5/16/2022 at 6:53 PM, X said:

Wait, I thought Deshaun Watson made us immediate Superbowl contenders.  I thought that was why he was worth all the baggage.  So we sold our soul to be mid pack?  The Browns are just a pathetic joke, man.

 

no. you thought wrong. because you need at least two felons:

 

 

On 5/16/2022 at 3:53 PM, X said:

Wait, I thought Deshaun Watson made us immediate Superbowl contenders.  I thought that was why he was worth all the baggage.  So we sold our soul to be mid pack?  The Browns are just a pathetic joke, man.

 

The Browns, in their infinite "wisdom" played an obviously debilitated Baker Mayfield instead of their very very highly paid backup QB Case Keenum.  It doesn't matter who plays for this team. The decision-makers in the org. are perpetually stupid and will ruin everything. 

On 5/16/2022 at 8:50 PM, YABO713 said:

 

Lol he did. 

 

Again, I'm against the signing - but the Browns offense is absolutely elite with him. An ESPN pre-season power ranking isn't exactly an iron clad prediction machine. The same had the Bengals at 29, the Pats at 19, the Chargers at 17, and the Seahawks at 8. 

 

I think I've shared this story, but when I asked my buddy what his front office would've given up for Deshaun Watson (baggage included), he said 3 first rounders, without a doubt. 

 

Again, the baggage is an unpredictable variable, but Deshaun Watson is an elite, Super Bowl level quarterback. 

I would be interested to look back at NFL first round draft picks over the last 20 years and see how many of them were hits, in that they lasted long enough to receive a 2nd contract from their teams and continue to start. I would almost wager that the ratio is somewhere in the 1:3 range (it may be a bit higher for first rounders, although the injury bug can derail some players who have breakout seasons). If that is the case, 3 first round picks for a proven elite QB is a bargain.  

49 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I would be interested to look back at NFL first round draft picks over the last 20 years and see how many of them were hits, in that they lasted long enough to receive a 2nd contract from their teams and continue to start. I would almost wager that the ratio is somewhere in the 1:3 range (it may be a bit higher for first rounders, although the injury bug can derail some players who have breakout seasons). If that is the case, 3 first round picks for a proven elite QB is a bargain.  

 

Right. I can proudly say my friend was just promoted within the Bears organization, this time under new leadership, and he's proven to know what he's talking about to people across the league. 

 

Last summer, the Bears offered the Seahawks 4 first rounders and Kyle Fuller to the Seahawks for Russel Wilson. They even had Michael Jordan make a personal appearance at Russel Wilson's house to pitch him on the city of Chicago. 

 

The Seahawks still declined that offer, then ended up settling for far less. Top 10 QBs are franchise changing, and unless you get one in the draft, you're willing to give everything for a good one. 

Hiring hookers or masseuses you thought were hookers wasn't bad conduct?

 

 

24 minutes ago, KJP said:

Hiring hookers or masseuses you thought were hookers wasn't bad conduct?

 

 

Lol yeah - that’s a STRETCH. To say the least.

51 minutes ago, KJP said:

Hiring hookers or masseuses you thought were hookers wasn't bad conduct?

 

Apparently not for Robert Kraft...

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Hiring hookers or masseuses you thought were hookers wasn't bad conduct?

 

 

 

I think we should be very clear here that Watson wasn't hiring hookers, and there's no reason to think that the masseuses he was hiring should have been mistaken for hookers.  Rather, he was hiring masseuses, and then (allegedly) propositioning them, groping them, or even assaulting them.  Frankly, if he was hiring hookers, I wouldn't care.  What happens between consenting adults doesn't bother me.

30 minutes ago, X said:

 

I think we should be very clear here that Watson wasn't hiring hookers, and there's no reason to think that the masseuses he was hiring should have been mistaken for hookers.  Rather, he was hiring masseuses, and then (allegedly) propositioning them, groping them, or even assaulting them.  Frankly, if he was hiring hookers, I wouldn't care.  What happens between consenting adults doesn't bother me.

 

Unfortunately, professional sports has become infested with virtue signalling, major league baseball is probably the worst offender (I've come to truly despise Rob Manfred) but the NFL isn't far behind.  Very few players behave much worse than the typical suddenly wealthy young adult (movies, music, or simply inherited).   If it's not felony level illegal behavior, performance enhancing drugs, or anything else that directly impacts the integrity of the sport, leave it be.    Let teams enforce behavior that might degrade performance.   There is no reason Josh Gordon should have been suspended for pot and doubly no reason he should have been for alcohol, the providers of which are among the league's biggest sponsors.

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Unfortunately, professional sports has become infested with virtue signalling, major league baseball is probably the worst offender (I've come to truly despise Rob Manfred) but the NFL isn't far behind.  Very few players behave much worse than the typical suddenly wealthy young adult (movies, music, or simply inherited).   If it's not felony level illegal behavior, performance enhancing drugs, or anything else that directly impacts the integrity of the sport, leave it be.    Let teams enforce behavior that might degrade performance.   There is no reason Josh Gordon should have been suspended for pot and doubly no reason he should have been for alcohol, the providers of which are among the league's biggest sponsors.

 

How does felony level illegal behavior impact the integrity of the sport?  If someone (Ray Rice, let's say) murders someone off the field, what does it matter on game day?  Aren't you just equally "virtue signalling" then?  WTF does that stupid phrase even mean?  As a football fan, I don't want to root for a guy who does the things to women that Watson is accused of.  Are you saying that isn't genuine on my part?  Or that the NFL shouldn't take the reaction of people like me into account?

^ i dk what trumpie is saying, but im saying you will forget about watson’s morals if they win big, just like baltimore did, etc..

 

take just today for example, donaldson out there yelling racis crap at the white sox. and just look at him. clearly he is jacked up on ‘roids. bench clearing makes news, but nobody really cares or does anything — because the yankees are winning and ratings. “i’ll look in to it,” says coach boone, meaning i’ll bury it because we are winning.

 

anyway, back to the browns, ceasars now has the pre-season odds out:

 

Cleveland Browns

Odds to win Super Bowl: +1800
Odds to win AFC: +1000
Odds to win division: +170
Win total: 9.5

 

 

game x game odds are here:

 

https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/33946955/nfl-betting-lines-odds-win-totals-all-32-teams

 

^ Donaldson is such a POS. I hated it when he was on the Indians for a hot minute late in the 2018 season. 

16 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ i dk what trumpie is saying, but im saying you will forget about watson’s morals if they win big, just like baltimore did, etc..

 

You're cool with sexual assault.  Good to know.  Don't assume everyone else is the same.

10 minutes ago, X said:

 

You're cool with sexual assault.  Good to know.  Don't assume everyone else is the same.

There is a difference between being cool with sexual assault and supporting the hone team. Most fans may not love Watson or recognize that he has issues but still cheer for him on game day because he can lead the team to victory. If the Browns win the Super Bowl it is good for Cleveland no matter who their QB is at the time. 

4 hours ago, X said:

 

You're cool with sexual assault.  Good to know.  Don't assume everyone else is the same.

 

so you can cherry pick and flail ridiculous assumptions all you want, but then lecture others not to assume anything? ok chief.

 

i have given you multiple examples of fandom in similar situations where you are wrong, including in that reply.

 

the facts is, your own continued posting on this thread belies your stance. if you were truly so disgusted by a player and the team you would have washed your hands of the browns.

 

so face it — if it were to happen, you will be right here rooting the browns success along with everyone else.

 

 

18 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

so you can cherry pick and flail ridiculous assumptions all you want, but then lecture others not to assume anything? ok chief.

 

i have given you multiple examples of fandom in similar situations where you are wrong, including in that reply.

 

the facts is, your own continued posting on this thread belies your stance. if you were truly so disgusted by a player and the team you would have washed your hands of the browns.

 

so face it — if it were to happen, you will be right here rooting the browns success along with everyone else.

You are the one making assumptions about how I will behave in a hypothetical winning season.  I didn't assume anything.  You told me your position, and I repeated it back to you in a way you didn't want to hear it phrased.

4 hours ago, X said:

You are the one making assumptions about how I will behave in a hypothetical winning season.  I didn't assume anything.  You told me your position, and I repeated it back to you in a way you didn't want to hear it phrased.

 

its no assumption that despite your dramatic outrage you are right here posting, so you remain a fan de facto, despite what you say. that's what you do not like to hear and that is the point, you aren't special, it's just like fans on other teams with similar situations. don't kid yourself, you aren't going anywhere and your every post proves it, you're in for life. 

Nothing wrong with supporting a team led by a sexual predator whose victims number in the dozens. I sure would hate for that guy to be stretchered out in game one. Pre-season.

Please stop with these garbage posts. If you choose to continue to support the Browns so be it. Everyone else is also entitled to their opinions without you bringing the personal attacks. (The personal attacks against you were replies to your garbage posts.) It feels like you're trying to justify your own reaction by dumping on other people's reactions.

On 5/21/2022 at 9:00 PM, mrnyc said:

^ i dk what trumpie is saying, but im saying you will forget about watson’s morals if they win big, just like baltimore did, etc..

...

 

I may disagree strongly with @E Rocc's politics, but he has on multiple occasions said that he did not vote for or support Trump. (Edit: correction - this was regarding 2016 elections. Per below, apparently he did vote for him in 2020.) If you're going to bring people's political opinions into this, at least be accurate with your charges. [Edit: I stand corrected on this one, but bringing the politics here is still inappropriate and the balance of my post stands.]

 

On 5/22/2022 at 6:15 PM, mrnyc said:

 

so you can cherry pick and flail ridiculous assumptions all you want, but then lecture others not to assume anything? ok chief.

 

i have given you multiple examples of fandom in similar situations where you are wrong, including in that reply.

 

the facts is, your own continued posting on this thread belies your stance. if you were truly so disgusted by a player and the team you would have washed your hands of the browns.

 

so face it — if it were to happen, you will be right here rooting the browns success along with everyone else.

Just because many fans have repeatedly ignored athlete's behaviors, doesn't mean all fans will or want to. Shouldn't we be expecting more out of people that earn crazy salaries because of fans' spending money on watching and supporting them? Can't we raise the bar?

 

13 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

its no assumption that despite your dramatic outrage you are right here posting, so you remain a fan de facto, despite what you say. that's what you do not like to hear and that is the point, you aren't special, it's just like fans on other teams with similar situations. don't kid yourself, you aren't going anywhere and your every post proves it, you're in for life. 

When organizations and leaders behave badly, they deserve to be called out. If decent people continue to ignore it, the bad behavior continues. I'm extremely glad that bad behavior is much more likely to have consequences in today's society than it used to - it's the only way things will get better.

 

Seriously I really don't understand your tone and approach in these series of posts. Maybe sports just touches a nerve that other interests don't?  And to be clear, if you were talking in generalities, e.g. "Most fans will be back, look at how people have reacted in the past" or "Look at how many people cheer for that rapist Roethlisberger" those statements would be supported by evidence. By comparison, your personal attacks on @X aren't based on any evidence. Just knock it off.

9 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I may disagree strongly with @E Rocc's politics, but he has on multiple occasions said that he did not vote for or support Trump. If you're going to bring people's political opinions into this, at least be accurate with your charges.

 

 

To be fair I did vote for him in 2020, and have said that.   It required multiple shots before, a good nose hold during, and a shower after, but I did.

Part of the reason that I did was the damage I feared in 2016 was already done.

Edited May 24, 20223 yr by E Rocc

^I responded in the Browns thread to not derail this one (even more than it has been) and I updated my post above.

so for all you browns fans -- news -- as i had expected, it happened -- clowney was signed -- to a max:

 

 

 

Sources: Cleveland Browns reach agreement to re-sign Jadeveon Clowney to one-year deal

 

 

Defensive end Jadeveon Clowney has agreed to re-sign with the Cleveland Browns on a one-year contract worth a maximum of $11 million after enjoying one of the best seasons of his career with the franchise, sources confirmed to ESPN.

 

Clowney finished with nine sacks and two forced fumbles for the Browns last season while playing opposite All-Pro pass-rusher Myles Garrett, who, like Clowney, also was a No. 1 overall draft pick.

 

 

more:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33964422/sources-cleveland-browns-reach-deal-re-sign-jadeveon-clowney-one-year-11-million-deal

 

 

 

Looks like our sexual predator's attorney might have a few screws loose.

 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/03/deshaun-watsons-lawyer-rusty-hardin-happy-ending-remark-was-used-hypothetically/

 

Deshaun Watson's lawyer, Rusty Hardin: "Happy ending" remark was used "hypothetically"

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/03/deshaun-watsons-lawyer-rusty-hardin-contends-sexual-activity-during-a-massage-is-not-a-crime/

 

Deshaun Watson’s lawyer, Rusty Hardin, contends sexual activity during a massage is not a crime

Edited June 4, 20223 yr by TBideon
hyperlink bollocks

 

Nah, clearly he's being set up.

 

Offensive line, find your moral compass.

 

Edited June 6, 20223 yr by TBideon

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/sports/football/deshaun-watson.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

 

Quote

The accusations have been frequent and startling: more than two dozen women have said the football star Deshaun Watson harassed or assaulted them during massage appointments that Watson and his lawyers insist were innocuous.

 

Yet a New York Times examination of records, including depositions and evidence for the civil lawsuits as well as interviews of some of the women, showed that Watson engaged in more questionable behavior than previously known.

 

The Times’s review also showed that Watson’s conduct was enabled, knowingly or not, by the team he played for at the time, the Houston Texans, which provided the venue Watson used for some of the appointments. A team representative also furnished him with a nondisclosure agreement after a woman who is now suing him threatened online to expose his behavior.

 

Quote

Watson has said publicly that he hired about 40 different therapists across his five seasons in Houston, but The Times’s reporting found that he booked appointments with at least 66 different women in just the 17 months from fall 2019 through spring 2021. A few of these additional women, speaking publicly for the first time, described experiences that undercut Watson’s insistence that he was only seeking professional massage therapy.

 

One woman, who did not sue Watson or complain to the police, told The Times that he was persistent in his requests for sexual acts during their massage, including “begging” her to put her mouth on his penis.

 

“I specifically had to say, ‘No, I can’t do that,’” said the woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity to protect her family’s privacy. “And that’s when I went into asking him, ‘What is it like being famous? Like, what’s going on? You’re about to mess up everything.’”

 

Great job doing your due diligence, Browns.

And even if the contract is vitiated and maniac is blackballed, Browns still lose draft picks.

 

Can we tar and feather Dee and Jimmy yet?

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

And even if the contract is vitiated and maniac is blackballed, Browns still lose draft picks.

 

Can we tar and feather Dee and Jimmy yet?

That’s a veryyyyy good point. They can never get those picks back period. This could turn out to be a real disaster for the browns. I have to think Baker is sitting back laughing his butt off.

1 minute ago, 646empire said:

That’s a veryyyyy good point. They can never get those picks back period. This could turn out to be a real disaster for the browns. I have to think Baker is sitting back laughing his butt off.

This also maybe speaks to the reports when all this went down about how Watson turned down the browns and then came back and said yes only after a couple other bidders seemed to be getting last minute cold feet. Maybe those franchises knew there was a bit more to the story and surly wasn’t going to give him that outrageous contract.

Those idiots' due diligence was Watson + minor suspension and "apology" tour = playoffs if not Superbowl = 2-billion-dollar tax-funded stadium paid for by a brainwashed, appreciative, ultraforgiving fanbase.

 

Wasn't there talk about putting the team into receivership (or god willing, city-owned, after all, we paid for the f'ing stadium) when Jimmy's rebate frauds came to light. How come that never went anywhere:(

On 6/8/2022 at 11:42 AM, DarkandStormy said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/sports/football/deshaun-watson.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

 

 

 

Great job doing your due diligence, Browns.

 

Browns knew all of this. There's nothing new in the NYT article.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Browns knew all of this. There's nothing new in the NYT article.

 

Yes, there is.  The Texans are being added as defendants in the lawsuits, btw.

 

Was it out there that the Texans provided the venue that Watson used for some of the appointments?

Was it out there a team representative gave him an NDA after a woman threatened online to expose his behavior?

Was it out there that Watson booked appoints with at least 66 different women in 17 months (fall of 2019 to spring of 2021)?  Watson has publicly said the number was about 40 different therapists.

The Times interviewed at least one woman who did not sue Watson or go to the police.  They also spoke another physical therapist who did not sue Watson but said he initiated sexual contact in all of their appointments.

Look, I have to say that I agree that I will never be able to root for Watson, no matter what. I don’t care if he wins, I can’t be happy about it. I do realize that their are other athletes that do not qualify as angels, but he is the center of this team, with SO MUCH baggage. He represents the city… poorly. He is also a new threat to therapists in this city.

 

I don’t want him to get hurt. I want him to play 100% healthy and also to lose. I don’t think there are good odds of that happening, but that is my perfect world scenario. The Haslams held there nose, brought in a probable scumbag and it blows up in their face as a pile of L’s. I AM a browns fan, but my moral compass is winning this argument.

 

I rooted for Matthew Stafford in the super bowl. Is it because I like the rams? Hell no. He appears to be a good guy and I wanted something good for him. 
 

My personal heros include Fred Rogers and Weird Al. They are my personal heros because of their high “good dude” feeling that I have of them. The browns aren’t my heros, and my fanship is on hiatus. In fact I have lost a ton of love for the NFL in general for their culture of chasing money and power over having a sense on right and wrong. Maybe that is an unfair expectation on my part, but it’s my personal line in the sand. Others can continue to be Browns fans, That is fine with me. I just can’t feel good thinking about his grin/tears of joy and a celebration for Watson if he were to win a championship. 

Edited June 9, 20223 yr by mkeller234

42 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Yes, there is.  The Texans are being added as defendants in the lawsuits, btw.

 

Was it out there that the Texans provided the venue that Watson used for some of the appointments?

Was it out there a team representative gave him an NDA after a woman threatened online to expose his behavior?

Was it out there that Watson booked appoints with at least 66 different women in 17 months (fall of 2019 to spring of 2021)?  Watson has publicly said the number was about 40 different therapists.

The Times interviewed at least one woman who did not sue Watson or go to the police.  They also spoke another physical therapist who did not sue Watson but said he initiated sexual contact in all of their appointments.

 

There's a difference between what the public knew and what the Browns knew. If you're interested in both sides, here's another view...

 

 

44 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

There's a difference between what the public knew and what the Browns knew. If you're interested in both sides, here's another view...

 

 

 

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, you are insinuating that 24 women are all lying, in addition to several others who aren't suing Watson (and, thus, having nothing to gain) and didn't go to the police?

45 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

There's a difference between what the public knew and what the Browns knew. If you're interested in both sides, here's another view...

 

 

It’s cool that the author of that deranged article thinks forcing a woman to touch your genitals or ejaculating on an unwilling massage therapist is being a “sex pest”. 

33 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, you are insinuating that 24 women are all lying, in addition to several others who aren't suing Watson (and, thus, having nothing to gain) and didn't go to the police?

 

Are you not the least bit curious why they all have the same slime-ball attorney who is tight with the owner of the Texans? Is it not possible that some of them are prostitutes? That certainly doesn't excuse Watson. If my son hired a hooker, I'd kick his a$$. But let's not pretend there's an honorable side to those involved in this case. As far as I'm concerned everybody is guilty and everybody is innocent. I don't know what happened there I wasn't there so I'm not going to come to any conclusions. I actually find it kind of frightening how strong some of the opinions are about this from people who weren't there either.

 

32 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

It’s cool that the author of that deranged article thinks forcing a woman to touch your genitals or ejaculating on an unwilling massage therapist is being a “sex pest”. 

 

What force was used? I did not see any claim of force. Seriously, I don't know so I'm asking.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

There's a difference between what the public knew and what the Browns knew. If you're interested in both sides, here's another view...

 

 

 

All I see in that article is a bunch of disingenuous handwaving.