April 4, 201114 yr You dont just get a bad product, you get poor customer service. The workers dont smile, you over pay for concessions, and they wont even look you in the eye. Based on other stadiums I've been to I would disagree with that statement. I find the customer service at Progressive Field to be on par if not better then the other stadiums I've been to. The concessions are also reasonably priced compared to many other parks. As for this "vote with your feet" movement because of the lack of parity... I find myself torn. I disagree with the way MLB conducts business, but I also fear the downward spiral that little/no attendance can bring (see Pittsburgh / Oakland). The Indians have shown in the past that they can develop young talent and make a run every 5-7 years. This is the path that mid and small market teams need to take to make runs at championships. Because of the system it is impossible for small and mid market teams to consistently compete, but every year one of these teams will make a run (Tampa Bay, Florida, Cincinnati, Texas (do they count?), etc...). I'm taking the "don't hate the player, hate the game," approach and I'm supporting the Tribe feverishly. I'm liking some of the young talent and hoping for some guys to have breakout years. Let's not sit at home and watch as our beloved Indians become the laughing stock of the league once again. Get off your ass, go downtown, sit back down on your ass, and watch some baseball!
April 4, 201114 yr Sorry but I dont have the money to blow on a mediocre team that doesn't care to invest in players, in a league that is run like shit, to people who dont care about the fans.
April 4, 201114 yr The Indians haven't really shown that they can make a run every five years. They've shown that in the past 57 years they can make one awesome 7-year run and 2007 (I might give you 2005). I love the Tribe, though, so I will hopefully be taking your advice, Hootenany.
April 4, 201114 yr Hoot, let me know when it is that every 5-7 years and I will meet up with you for a game... until then, I would prefer to waste my money on the other inept teams in this town
April 4, 201114 yr I prefer more equanimity in my fandom; I waste equal amounts of money on all three horrible franchises. However, I feel it's the enormous amounts of time, the great chunks of one's life that are frittered away that truly show the mark of a true fan and a stupid person.
April 4, 201114 yr aah stop!! i cant help but agree and you guys are killin me -- whats funny is this is how we talk after a win! :laugh:
April 4, 201114 yr I'll watch/listen to Indians games all year no matter the record; however, I will only go to games when the team plays well. It's expensive and the Dolans/Shapiro questionable, perhaps suspicious, tactics are ugly enough for me to stay away, outside of the occasional nice day, cheap ticket day game. Question for you guys. Has a city ever had the three worst teams in the three major sports before? I mean, the Cavs are by far the worst, the Browns probably are too, and the Indians....well....with our pitching, I dunno. Barring multiple miracles, I don't have much faith on our starters.
April 4, 201114 yr Question for you guys. Has a city ever had the three worst teams in the three major sports before? I mean, the Cavs are by far the worst, the Browns probably are too, and the Indians....well....with our pitching, I dunno. Barring multiple miracles, I don't have much faith on our starters. We've had the worst teams in all three for the past 50 years!
April 4, 201114 yr seems to me the 1970's were the same as now. the browns made the playoffs at the very start of that decade, then all downhill until the infamous red right 88 disaster in 1981. the tribe and cavs were lovable at times, gotta love those flintstones tribe uni's and that hoo-ha 70's manning-eckersley wife swap thang, but terrible (ok minus one glorious miracle of richfield season!). so basically outside of a blip or two all three teams were hopeless back then too. back to the future!
April 4, 201114 yr My life would be easier and happier if I didn't care about the Indians. But for some f'ed up reason I follow them pretty closely year in and year out no matter how poorly run they are or how stacked the deck is against small market teams.
April 5, 201114 yr Yes yes absolutely yes - though the article isn't nearly hard enough on the team's owner, nor does it discuss the ridiculous bad internal promotion decisions of the last few years. http://espncleveland.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/indians-must-solve-p-r-dilemma/ Indians Must Solve P.R. Dilemma "It’s the never-ending push and pull. Paul Dolan says, “our ability to improve the club is based on attendance.” Fans say, “look up in the outfield and see that 455 (consecutive sellouts) sign, we’ve invested in you, now it’s your turn.”
April 5, 201114 yr Hmm...a bad owner who won't spend money and cosistantly puts a shitty product on the field. Sounds like Bengals owner Mike Brown. I seem to remember a couple of Browns fans on here being critical of using this as a reason for the Bengals not selling out...
April 5, 201114 yr Just saying that football and baseball are completely different. Baseball has like 81 home games, while football has only 8.
April 5, 201114 yr Just saying that football and baseball are completely different. Baseball has like 81 home games, while football has only 8. And the Browns still sell out every game, even after being horrible (more so than the Bengals) for over a decade.
April 5, 201114 yr As an outsider of the Indians (grew up a Reds and Browns fan) I see 1 major difference in the 2 organizations as of late. Whether it's true or not the Browns seem to be interested and trying their best to put a winner on the field at all costs. Now whether that's true or not can be argued but the way Al Lerner has spent (currently paying 3 coaching staffs, Mike Holmgren and his posse, paying Josh Cribbs and our other "stars") he is showing to the fans that he wants to win even at the expense of his check book (yes I know he is still making tons of money). The Dolans on the other hand could be producing a winner if they would just pay the players the Indians already had. By letting them go or trading them for prospects, it seems the fanbase is very annoyed that they are not willing to pay "our" star players and therefore there seems to be little to no hope (whether that's true or not can be argued). However, this perception along with the demand to win now in today's sports society is in my opinion what is killing the Indians, along with a few other PR nightmares in management.
April 5, 201114 yr More like two decades True, but didn't have too many fans at games in the late 90s. :)
April 5, 201114 yr Wasn't trying to bring back the Bengals/Browns discussion, just commenting on how it really does suck to have an owner that just doesn't care about the team/fans/city. It's a very powerless feeling, and I don't blame Clevelanders for not showing up to the games. Even in the late 90's/early 2000's when the Reds sucked, we still had some good players, and I never got the sense that the ownership didn't care. Granted the current ownership is doing a much better job, but I don't recall the Reds ever going through this abandonment by the owners as the Bengals/Indians have right now.
April 6, 201114 yr Wasn't trying to bring back the Bengals/Browns discussion, just commenting on how it really does suck to have an owner that just doesn't care about the team/fans/city. It's a very powerless feeling, and I don't blame Clevelanders for not showing up to the games. Even in the late 90's/early 2000's when the Reds sucked, we still had some good players, and I never got the sense that the ownership didn't care. Granted the current ownership is doing a much better job, but I don't recall the Reds ever going through this abandonment by the owners as the Bengals/Indians have right now. What abandonment by the Bengals? They've added Roy Williams, Dhani Jones, T.O., Cedric Benson, etc, signed all of their 1st round draft picks.. And I don't remember any ex-Bengals going to another team and having a great career, so what have they given up?? On the other hand, the Indians have traded away two Cy Young winners who have both since won the WS, and the heart of the team, Victor Martiniez, and have added nothing but a bunch of prospects.
April 6, 201114 yr That was a nice win, which I watched online and not in person... As for attendance, I'm poor/busy and can't go much. I get Netflix for 8 dollars a month, or around a 50% chance of seeing a decent game for considerably more. I want to be involved and I want them to do well, but we all know the MLB is a stacked deck and it only gets interesting when an underdog crushes one of the big budget teams. Hoping against hope is not going to fill those seats for 80+ games a year. Our collective desperation gets enough of a workout from the Browns. I don't entirely blame the Dolans, but I don't think they're part of the solution, either. Perhaps when the team just randomly strikes gold, they'll sell the team and get out. I hope.
April 6, 201114 yr Thats what i was thinking today. They are probably waiting for a random year when the indians do good and then sell high
April 6, 201114 yr I hear a lot of Tribe fans blaming Major League Baseball for the Indians' inability to compete. That could not be farther from the truth. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the American League, the Yankees (4) and Red Sox (2) combined for six pennants. MLB has no salary cap and both franchises annually spend $120 million or more. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the AFC, the Patriots (4), Steelers (3) and Colts (2) have combined for nine AFC Championships. These three franchises make up the last eight Super Bowl representatives from the AFC. NFL's salary cap was $128 million in 2009 and the minimum any franchise could spend was 87.6% of that, or $112 million.
April 6, 201114 yr Baseball Opening Day Total Player Payroll, 2010 to 2011 Team 2010 2011 Average % change New York Yankees $206.3 $201.7 $6,722,968 -2.3% Philadelphia $141.9 $173.0 $5,765,879 +21.9% Boston $162.7 $161.4 $5,978,055 -0.8% Los Angeles Angels $105.0 $139.0 $4,483,823 +32.4% Chicago White Sox $108.2 $129.3 $4,788,353 +19.4% Chicago Cubs $146.9 $125.5 $5,228,361 -14.6% New York Mets $132.7 $120.1 $4,290,975 -9.5% San Francisco $97.8 $118.2 $4,378,383 +20.8% Minnesota $97.6 $112.7 $4,509,480 +15.6% Detroit $122.9 $105.7 $3,915,009 -14.0% St. Louis $93.6 $105.4 $3,904,947 +12.7% Los Angeles Dodgers $94.9 $103.8 $3,459,633 +9.3% Texas $55.3 $92.3 $3,182,733 +67.1% Colorado $84.2 $88.0 $3,384,541 +4.5% Atlanta $84.4 $87.0 $3,346,277 +3.1% Seattle $98.4 $86.4 $2,880,820 -12.1% Milwaukee $81.1 $85.5 $2,849,911 +5.4% Baltimore $81.6 $85.3 $3,280,925 +4.5% Cincinnati $72.4 $76.2 $2,539,379 +5.2% Houston $92.4 $70.7 $2,437,724 -23.5% Oakland $51.6 $66.6 $2,376,304 +28.8% Washington $61.4 $63.7 $2,195,929 +3.7% Toronto $62.7 $62.5 $2,016,703 -0.3% Florida $55.6 $56.9 $2,190,154 +2.3% Arizona $60.7 $53.6 $1,986,660 -11.7% Cleveland $61.2 $49.2 $1,639,629 -19.6% Pittsburgh $34.9 $46.0 $1,534,900 +31.8% San Diego $37.8 $45.9 $1,479,650 +21.3% Tampa Bay $71.9 $41.9 $1,612,776 -41.7% Kansas City $72.3 $36.1 $1,338,015 -50.0% I didn't know their payroll was down 20%.
April 6, 201114 yr Cleveland is still ahead of 4 teams as far as payroll goes so to everyone crying about how much we spend it is no different than many other rebuilding teams. We are not the Yankees or Red Sox. I know losing CC and Cliff hurt and I still am not totally over those moves. I am ok with Martinez because what we have now is as good or better with Santana. I think the mood around the Indians is way overblown this year and while they are not stacked they just beat the world series favorite (at least a week ago they were) Red Sox and look like they have some fight in them. When they are down 20 games at the All star break I will give up, but not yet.
April 6, 201114 yr Playing .500 ball for the first two months will go a long way with the fans (looking at you Senor Mustache, Eric Wedge), well at least me. Manny at least seems to have the team firing on all cylinders coming out of the gate. When the Indians are out of the playoffs by June it is just extra hard to get motivated to go to a game.
April 6, 201114 yr ^We still have farther to drop too. Hafner's contract ($13M) accounts for about 25% of our payroll this year. That's likely gone next year or drastically reduced. Hopefully the young guns on this team will show some promise this year and convince the ownership to spend some money in the off season acquiring some talent.
April 6, 201114 yr I hear a lot of Tribe fans blaming Major League Baseball for the Indians' inability to compete. That could not be farther from the truth. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the American League, the Yankees (4) and Red Sox (2) combined for six pennants. MLB has no salary cap and both franchises annually spend $120 million or more. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the AFC, the Patriots (4), Steelers (3) and Colts (2) have combined for nine AFC Championships. These three franchises make up the last eight Super Bowl representatives from the AFC. NFL's salary cap was $128 million in 2009 and the minimum any franchise could spend was 87.6% of that, or $112 million. Baseball playoff system is a crapshoot and no indicator of parity. If you want a better evaluation of just how important money is to baseball, look at the teams that consistently qualify for the playoffs.
April 7, 201114 yr I hear a lot of Tribe fans blaming Major League Baseball for the Indians' inability to compete. That could not be farther from the truth. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the American League, the Yankees (4) and Red Sox (2) combined for six pennants. MLB has no salary cap and both franchises annually spend $120 million or more. Since 2000, of the eleven teams to win the AFC, the Patriots (4), Steelers (3) and Colts (2) have combined for nine AFC Championships. These three franchises make up the last eight Super Bowl representatives from the AFC. NFL's salary cap was $128 million in 2009 and the minimum any franchise could spend was 87.6% of that, or $112 million. Baseball playoff system is a crapshoot and no indicator of parity. If you want a better evaluation of just how important money is to baseball, look at the teams that consistently qualify for the playoffs. AL playoff teams since 2000, number of appearances New York 10 (baseball's outlier, Pittsburgh is the other one. I agree it's not fair but the NYY haven't spent less than $200 million since 2007) Boston 6 Anaheim 6 Minnesota 6 Oakland 5 Chicago 3 Seattle 2 Cleveland 2 Tampa 2 Detroit 1 Texas 1 Big markets - Boston, Anaheim, Chicago, Detroit. Appearances - 17 Middle markets or smaller - Minnesota, Oakland, Seattle, Cleveland, Tampa, Texas. Appearances - 18 NL playoff teams since 2000, number of appearances Big markets - New York, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia. Appearances - 20 Middle markets or smaller - Atlanta, St. Louis, Arizona, Florida, San Diego, Colorado, Milwaukee, Cincinnati. Appearances - 23 Atlanta 7 St. Louis 6 San Francisco 4 Los Angeles 4 Philadelphia 4 Houston 3 Arizona 3 Chicago 3 New York 2 San Diego 2 Colorado 2 Milwaukee 1 Cincinnati 1 Florida 1 MSA is not the defining statistic, though it is a factor of course. For ex, Miami is a big market but the Marlins rarely crack $50 million in payroll. Atlanta typically spends $80-90 million annually in a top ten metropolitan area. The most difficult teams to determine market size were Atlanta, San Francisco, Seattle and St. Louis. I'd rank the four clubs with SF being the largest market followed by Atlanta, Seattle and St. Louis. When Texas and Seattle have had payrolls in excess of $100 million, they demonstrated an inability to compete b/c they couldn't build a sound roster with such large contracts on the books. This helped land them on the mid-market list. The Chicago White Sox and Detroit Tigers had middle and lower payrolls until the late 2000's. Totals: Large markets (including Yankees) - 47 postseason appearances Middle and smaller markets - 41 postseason appearances
April 7, 201114 yr Here in Cleveland? I didn't realize they still had a team! Sure. We've got uniforms and everything! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 7, 201114 yr Here in Cleveland? I didn't realize they still had a team! Sure. We've got uniforms and everything! Do you think the Indians have a cardboard cutout of Dolan in the locker room, ripping off a piece of his clothing after each win?
April 7, 201114 yr AL playoff teams since 2000, number of appearances New York 10 (baseball's outlier, Pittsburgh is the other one. I agree it's not fair but the NYY haven't spent less than $200 million since 2007) Boston 6 Anaheim 6 Minnesota 6 Oakland 5 Chicago 3 Seattle 2 Cleveland 2 Tampa 2 Detroit 1 Texas 1 Big markets - Boston, Anaheim, Chicago, Detroit. Appearances - 17 Middle markets or smaller - Minnesota, Oakland, Seattle, Cleveland, Tampa, Texas. Appearances - 18 NL playoff teams since 2000, number of appearances Big markets - New York, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia. Appearances - 20 Middle markets or smaller - Atlanta, St. Louis, Arizona, Florida, San Diego, Colorado, Milwaukee, Cincinnati. Appearances - 23 Atlanta 7 St. Louis 6 San Francisco 4 Los Angeles 4 Philadelphia 4 Houston 3 Arizona 3 Chicago 3 New York 2 San Diego 2 Colorado 2 Milwaukee 1 Cincinnati 1 Florida 1 MSA is not the defining statistic, though it is a factor of course. For ex, Miami is a big market but the Marlins rarely crack $50 million in payroll. Atlanta typically spends $80-90 million annually in a top ten metropolitan area. The most difficult teams to determine market size were Atlanta, San Francisco, Seattle and St. Louis. I'd rank the four clubs with SF being the largest market followed by Atlanta, Seattle and St. Louis. When Texas and Seattle have had payrolls in excess of $100 million, they demonstrated an inability to compete b/c they couldn't build a sound roster with such large contracts on the books. This helped land them on the mid-market list. The Chicago White Sox and Detroit Tigers had middle and lower payrolls until the late 2000's. Totals: Large markets (including Yankees) - 47 postseason appearances Middle and smaller markets - 41 postseason appearances I'm not really sure I'm following your posts right. Don't your data support the contention that the funding system stacks the deck against small market teams? 4 of 13 AL teams you keep in your sample are "large market" by your definition; = 31%. And they've won 16 of the 34 playoff slots in your sample = 47%. And that's without the Yankees in there. Count them and the mismatch is a lot higher. I don't think anyone thinks it's all about the money, but it does seem to be a thumb on the scale favor of the consistently high payroll teams. Certainly not responsible for the Indians terrible drafts for a lot years last decade, but definitely part of why they've lost a lot of HOF-level talent in the last 20 years.
April 7, 201114 yr Here in Cleveland? I didn't realize they still had a team! Sure. We've got uniforms and everything! Do you think the Indians have a cardboard cutout of Dolan in the locker room, ripping off a piece of his clothing after each win?
April 7, 201114 yr Here in Cleveland? I didn't realize they still had a team! Sure. We've got uniforms and everything! Do you think the Indians have a cardboard cutout of Dolan in the locker room, ripping off a piece of his clothing after each win? They probably have a cardboard cutout of a naked Dolan and get to add a piece of clothing with each win.
April 7, 201114 yr The 6th inning pitched by the BoSox Reyes was one of the craziest I have ever seen. 12 pitches, 1 strike, 1 walk and two hit batters, loaded the bases. After he hit Buck the STO announcers were like, "sometimes you do that in a situation like that." After the second batter was hit, " it was, nevermind, he just absolutely no idea where those pitches were going."
April 7, 201114 yr Has there ever been a more bizarre and simply wrong choice for a major award when Moe won MVP over Joey in '95? In any sport?
April 7, 201114 yr Promising start to the season after that opening day debacle. Carmona pitched pretty well today.
April 7, 201114 yr O god I love fans like you guys criticizing Shapiro; the same people who criticized him when we traded Drese for Hafner. Same people who critcized the trade of Colon for C. Lee-Sizemore-Phillips; now this. He has yet to be wrong with a trade and I saw this Marte kid play before; the game I went to he went 3 for 5 with 2 homers and a double; he is the next Manny for Cleveland. Here are some thoughts... Other Fans Thoughts Came across this quote from 2006 by accident. This Shapiro gentleman may have been slightly off.
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