November 4, 20168 yr I don't think anyone says it is hateful. The portrayals of Native Americans in 1950s westerns was not hateful either.
November 4, 20168 yr I hate this argument because it tries to paint a binary picture to something that is inherently not binary. Serious question, as somebody that is neither Native American or easily offended: Is Chief Wahoo racist simply because it's a caricature of a Native American? Or is that dependent on the percentage of people offended by it?
November 4, 20168 yr Wow, I've never seen this picture before, but it's exactly what I had in mind when I posted my comment above. All of those caricatures are extremely offensive and the Chief Wahoo caricature is no different.
November 4, 20168 yr I really would like someone who thinks Chief Wahoo is not racist to show me a caricature which would be racist. Anyone? Bueller? No one wants to take a stab at this? I hate this argument because it tries to paint a binary picture to something that is inherently not binary. Serious question, as somebody that is neither Native American or easily offended: Is Chief Wahoo racist simply because it's a caricature of a Native American? Or is that dependent on the percentage of people offended by it? I'm neither Native American nor easily offended. But I do have the ability to empathize with those people who are offended by something, even when I'm not. Caricatures are not inherently racist or offensive. If they were, political satire cartoons would be a dead art. A caricature of an individual is one thing. A caricature of entire race is another, especially when it incorporates the stereotypes (red skin, big nose, etc).
November 4, 20168 yr I really would like someone who thinks Chief Wahoo is not racist to show me a caricature which would be racist. Anyone? Bueller? No one wants to take a stab at this? The definition of racist is a belief that one race is superior to another. The depiction of Chief Wahoo doesn't rise to that level imho. The mere mention of the "N-word" doesn't either. In either case I think you have to look at the context. What's the purpose there? People will draw their own conclusions. If the purpose of the logo was to somehow suggest all Native Americans actually looked like that, well, it would be racist. Chief Wahoo does not do that; he is a quirky cartoon character, like the Baltimore Oriole.
November 4, 20168 yr That doesn't answer the question. It dodges it completely. Show me a caricature which is racist and tell me why it is racist. Hell, let's just leave "racist" out of it (I agree that term might not be best used here). Show me an "offensive" caricature and explain why it is offensive. An Oriole is a bird, btw. Let's try to keep it confined to actual humans. No animals or mythical creatures. I personally think when a caricature makes fun of (usually by overemphasis on) physical features often associated with a particular race, regardless if the intent is to say one race is superior to another, then whatever you want to call it, someone can rightfully be offended. Asians with squinty eyes and silly grins, jews with crooked noses, blacks with wide noses and big lips, Native Americans with red skin and long noses.
November 4, 20168 yr That doesn't answer the question. It dodges it completely. Show me a caricature which is racist and tell me why it is racist. Hell, let's just leave "racist" out of it (I agree that term might not be best used here). Show me an "offensive" caricature and explain why it is offensive. I personally think when a caricature makes fun of (usually by overemphasis on) physical features often associated with a particular race, then whatever you want to call it, someone can rightfully be offended. Asians with squinty eyes and silly grins, jews with crooked noses, blacks with wide noses and big lips, Native Americans with red skin and long noses. Here: http://www.emlii.com/images/article/2014/07/53bd2bab67f26.jpeg If I just saw this image without any context I wouldn't even know what the hell it was about. It's racist by virtue that its purpose is to be racist. Yet even as a person who is half German descent this drawing doesn't offend me. What offends me is the propaganda behind it. What is the purpose of Chief Wahoo?
November 4, 20168 yr It's a silly caricature of American Indians. It utilizes stereotypical physical features of that race to create what is supposed to be a comical image. Same purposes as a caricature of a black person with a huge nose and lips. I don't know of any other purpose. What is 'racist' about the image you posted? I might not be following
November 4, 20168 yr What is 'racist' about the image you posted? I might not be following Sorry, I'm multitasking today and probably not explaining things well enough. The image is racist because the intent is to create the perception that Germans are monstrous looking and therefore less human than us. And I get it. They're the bad guys. The purpose of the image is to incite fear and to support a war. I can support that war and still hate the method used in that instance. Anyhow I think we are pretty much in agreement. I agree it's a silly caricature, sure. I understand why it upsets people. But it personally doesn't upset me. It does upset me that enough people are offended, however. And that's why I would support phasing it out.
November 4, 20168 yr eye on the prize! ^ can someone explain this to me its in line with the sk8tr type apparel trends: http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2011/12/07/new-clothing-shop-opens-in-gordon-square https://www.ilthy.com they are a ripoff of, or should i say a clone of, supreme, right down to the logo: http://www.supremenewyork.com/shop of course supreme is itself a ripoff of every west coast skate/surf shop brand you can think of. i think the logic is that is that if you are mocking something you are on some higher level and off the hook for repercussions about it. or something like that.
November 4, 20168 yr Wow, I've never seen this picture before, but it's exactly what I had in mind when I posted my comment above. All of those caricatures are extremely offensive and the Chief Wahoo caricature is no different. that's why i prefer the late 1940s chief when they combined all three of those stereotypes -- they were better at it back then :-o
November 5, 20168 yr Wow, I've never seen this picture before, but it's exactly what I had in mind when I posted my comment above. All of those caricatures are extremely offensive and the Chief Wahoo caricature is no different. Your comment made me think of that picture. When I googled it, I discovered there are others similar to it, though not as professionally produced. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 5, 20168 yr Pieces are all in place for Indians to be even better in 2017 Jerry Crasnick ESPN Senior Writer Nov. 3, 2016 CLEVELAND -- The 2016 Cleveland Indians were good enough to win the franchise's first American League pennant in 19 years and come agonizingly close to bringing the city its first World Series victory since 1948. Given all the injuries the Indians endured and obstacles they had to overcome, it's not outlandish to think they'll return as an even better, more formidable team in 2017. Cleveland's front office has some significant decisions to make this offseason, for sure. First baseman Mike Napoli, who led the team with 34 homers and 101 RBIs and was so beloved that "Party at Napoli's'' T-shirts were a de rigeur fashion statement at Progressive Field, is eligible for free agency this winter. So is outfielder Rajai Davis, who led the American League with 43 stolen bases and hit a home run so momentous it made the stadium shake late Wednesday night. MORE: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17961811/the-cleveland-indians-even-better-2017 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 6, 20168 yr Sad to see Coco Crisp won't be back. Love me some Coco. But glad to hear that Michael Brantley is expected to be back for spring training.
November 6, 20168 yr Sad to see Coco Crisp won't be back. Love me some Coco. But glad to hear that Michael Brantley is expected to be back for spring training. Coco was a trade deadline rental that coincidentally also happened to have played here years ago. He was never meant to be a long-term solution. They'll need to bolster the outfield a bit next year, though, but hopefully with someone younger and more consistent at the plate.
December 23, 20168 yr Indians sign Encarnacion to a 3-year deal. http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2016/12/cleveland_indians_edwin_encarn_1.html
December 23, 20168 yr That makes me happy. If Brantley comes back at near 100 percent, the offense should be more productive, especially at clutch times. Gee, maybe ESPN might actually broadcast more than one Indians Sunday night baseball game.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 23, 20168 yr Look for Lindor and Ramirez to have monster seasons next year batting before and after Encarnacion.
December 23, 20168 yr Great news, but does this spell bye-bye Mike Napoli for certain? I think so. And if that's the case, I see this is a significant upgrade. On paper the offense looks like it should be able to pull more of its own weight to match up with the stellar rotation. The Indians could be really, really good next year!
December 23, 20168 yr Projects as a huge upgrade over Nap. Things looking very good for 2017. Pretty much no serious competition to win the division.
December 23, 20168 yr Indians sign Encarnacion to a 3-year deal. http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2016/12/cleveland_indians_edwin_encarn_1.html Only thing that worries me is he basically came out of nowhere. I drafted him in the middle rounds of my 12 player keeper league, so like the 17th round, and he absolutely exploded that year. Guys that do that sometimes fade quickly and unexpectedly as well.
December 23, 20168 yr He's been very consistent the past five years. More HRs than any other player over that span, right? 34-42 HRs each season and BA in the .260-.280 range. High walk to strikeout rate. Seems like he showed slow but steady progress with Cin (although his BA slipped as he transitioned into being a power hitter, which is not unusual). Then he had a few injury filled seasons before settling in with Toronto and turning into one of the best power hitters in the league.
December 23, 20168 yr He's a bona fide slugger who's been an All-Star three of the last four seasons. I think we can expect some drop-off in his production over the next few years, but I don't think it will be significant based on trends. The outfield could be upgraded a bit if/when Brantley comes back or if one of the young prospects (Diaz or Zimmer) can come up and produce.
December 23, 20168 yr He's been very consistent the past five years. More HRs than any other player over that span, right? 34-42 HRs each season and BA in the .260-.280 range. High walk to strikeout rate. Seems like he showed slow but steady progress with Cin (although his BA slipped as he transitioned into being a power hitter, which is not unusual). Then he had a few injury filled seasons before settling in with Toronto and turning into one of the best power hitters in the league. I thought I read somewhere that, over the last 3 years, Encarnacion is second in total HR's only to Chris Davis ... and that even this was pretty close.
January 14, 20178 yr Will cross post here and tourism thread, but I have heard with great confidence that the tribe has indeed landed the 2019 MLB all star game and it will be announced at the greater cleveland sports banquet later this month. We had heard rumors a year ago or so.
January 14, 20178 yr That's fantastic news if true and really helps keep the momentum going off the back of what should continue to be a very competitive team for the next few years. Just being awfully cynical for a moment; might this be an incentive/ reward for a name change? My hovercraft is full of eels
January 14, 20178 yr Just being awfully cynical for a moment; might this be an incentive/ reward for a name change? Hopefully not a name change, but at least maybe incentive for dropping the Wahoo logo.
January 22, 20178 yr andy marte died in a car crash in dr: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18531049/former-major-leaguer-andy-marte-dies-car-accident http://es.pn/2kgOVx3
January 25, 20178 yr Just being awfully cynical for a moment; might this be an incentive/ reward for a name change? Hopefully not a name change, but at least maybe incentive for dropping the Wahoo logo. The Dolans are not dropping it and MLB is backing them strongly. They all but threatened to pull ALCS games out of Toronto if the court case went against them.
January 25, 20178 yr The Dolans are not dropping it and MLB is backing them strongly. They all but threatened to pull ALCS games out of Toronto if the court case went against them. This is another wrong side of history situation for those insisting on keeping it. I'm fairly confident that it will be gone within my lifetime, but more likely than that much sooner.
January 25, 20178 yr Kill me now, kill me now, or make it opening day. (My general affirmation for the day)
January 25, 20178 yr The Dolans are not dropping it and MLB is backing them strongly. They all but threatened to pull ALCS games out of Toronto if the court case went against them. This is another wrong side of history situation for those insisting on keeping it. I'm fairly confident that it will be gone within my lifetime, but more likely than that much sooner. Not necessarily. I think we had evidence last November that there has been a backlash against oversensitivity and overdefining "offensive". There's no guarantee that this movement will continue or won't actually reverse itself. Keep in mind most Amerinds nationally don't really care and that in this area the strong majority favors keeping him.
January 25, 20178 yr This is another wrong side of history situation for those insisting on keeping it. I'm fairly confident that it will be gone within my lifetime, but more likely than that much sooner. Not necessarily. I think we had evidence last November that there has been a backlash against oversensitivity and overdefining "offensive". There's no guarantee that this movement will continue or won't actually reverse itself. Keep in mind most Amerinds nationally don't really care and that in this area the strong majority favors keeping him. I disagree. I think we have a vocal minority that "strongly" favors keeping Chief Wahoo in his current form, and a silent majority that doesn't care that much and could be persuaded either way.
January 25, 20178 yr The Dolans are not dropping it and MLB is backing them strongly. They all but threatened to pull ALCS games out of Toronto if the court case went against them. This is another wrong side of history situation for those insisting on keeping it. I'm fairly confident that it will be gone within my lifetime, but more likely than that much sooner. Not necessarily. I think we had evidence last November that there has been a backlash against oversensitivity and overdefining "offensive". There's no guarantee that this movement will continue or won't actually reverse itself. Keep in mind most Amerinds nationally don't really care and that in this area the strong majority favors keeping him. I don't know about all that... I personally have a friend who is Native American and was spit at when she went to protest the use of Chief Wahoo a few years ago. Her experience left me not caring for the use of the logo at all. Sensitivities towards Chief Wahoo may (or may not) deserve their own thread; however, if Chief Wahoo isn't wrong... then no one... NO ONE should feel any type of way about this image. I know this point has been made before... but still...
January 26, 20178 yr Not necessarily. I think we had evidence last November that there has been a backlash against oversensitivity and overdefining "offensive". There's no guarantee that this movement will continue or won't actually reverse itself. Keep in mind most Amerinds nationally don't really care and that in this area the strong majority favors keeping him. Oh, yes, the false argument based on a situation (the recent election) where a minority of Americans bend the rules to consolidate power for themselves, in turn somehow supposed to be an indication that there is widespread backlash against common decency.
January 26, 20178 yr The Dolans are not dropping it and MLB is backing them strongly. They all but threatened to pull ALCS games out of Toronto if the court case went against them. This is another wrong side of history situation for those insisting on keeping it. I'm fairly confident that it will be gone within my lifetime, but more likely than that much sooner. Not necessarily. I think we had evidence last November that there has been a backlash against oversensitivity and overdefining "offensive". There's no guarantee that this movement will continue or won't actually reverse itself. Keep in mind most Amerinds nationally don't really care and that in this area the strong majority favors keeping him. There would have to be a pretty large-scale reversal of thought for Wahoo to become inoffensive. The semi-non-offensive original intent of the Indians name and logo is worth considering, but that argument only goes so far and we'll probably see Wahoo gone sooner rather than later.
January 26, 20178 yr Will cross post here and tourism thread, but I have heard with great confidence that the tribe has indeed landed the 2019 MLB all star game and it will be announced at the greater cleveland sports banquet later this month. We had heard rumors a year ago or so. We heard it here first Sources: Cleveland Indians to host 2019 MLB All-Star Game at Progressive Field There's a mid-to-late-'90s vibe emerging at the corner of Carnegie and Ontario. The Indians will hold a press conference on Friday morning to announce that they will host the 2019 MLB All-Star Game at Progressive Field, multiple sources told cleveland.com. The city last hosted the sport's Midsummer Classic in 1997, in the middle of a storied (albeit title-less) era in the franchise's history. In that 1997 exhibition, Tribe catcher Sandy Alomar captured the Most Valuable Player Award for his go-ahead two-run home run in the seventh inning, which vaulted the American League to a 3-1 victory. The Indians have hosted the All-Star Game on four other occasions, as well. In 1935, 1954, 1963 and 1981, the contest took place at Municipal Stadium. The 2019 game will mark the sixth in Cleveland. No other franchise has hosted more, and only New York and Chicago -- areas with multiple teams -- have hosted more as a city. http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/01/cleveland_indians_all-star_gam_1.html
January 26, 20178 yr yeah so cool we got the scoop here first -- and that is great news. "The 2019 game will mark the sixth in Cleveland. No other franchise has hosted more, and only New York and Chicago -- areas with multiple teams -- have hosted more as a city." i did not realize this. :clap:
January 26, 20178 yr ^The geographic location is near ideal for this mid summer game. Almost the opposite of college bowl games and Super Bowls, no one wants to go to Texas or Arizona or Florida in July.
February 5, 20178 yr Another good addition to the Tribe's bullpen.... Cleveland Indians, pending physical, land lefty reliever Boone Logan http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/02/cleveland_indians_pending_phys.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20178 yr Happy first day of Spring Training! There's a party at 4pm at the Clevelander today to celebrate pitchers and catchers reporting http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/02/cleveland_indians_to_host_pitc.html
February 12, 20178 yr Good God, already? I'm still recovering from November Rumor has it Trevor Bauer brought one of those motorized Sean Spicer lecterns for his post-game interviews. :-D :wink:
February 16, 20178 yr good update on brantley -- we'll cross our fingers he can come back this year: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18693235/cleveland-indians-taking-methodical-approach-michael-brantley-spring-training http://es.pn/2kTTnkI
March 21, 20178 yr the big news yesterday is brantley is back, he went 2 for 3: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18962202/indians-michael-brantley-encouraging-first-game-shoulder-surgery http://es.pn/2ng1vxi
March 29, 20178 yr the reds this afternoon, then the last two games with the diamondbacks and that is that with spring training this year. boy it goes fast. lets hope chisenhall shakes his wall crash off, kipnis gets back to ok quick and brantley is truly healed.
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