Not a fan of naming the team after a specific player, unless we want to call them the Cleveland Shoeless Joe's, and that's just because it sounds cool. 

 

But seriously we'll name them after someone and then find out they were a Nazi sympathizer, or beat their wife or something and then have to change it again. 

 

I like the local industry theme, but we aren't really tied to any one particular industry.  We could call them the Cleveland Diversified Durable Goods Manufacturers.  Or maybe we could update the theme for the 21st century and name them the Cleveland Heart Surgeons.

 

I like the idea of tying us to Lake Erie, or the Cuyahoga, and the wildlife therein, but the Cleveland Walleyes does sound minor league.

I think The Cleveland Engines is very "Cleveland" and holds to tradition. 

I've only owned the Windsor, but I think Cleveland should show pride in their motor. It is also very American...if that's still a good thing.

"Course looking ahead, maybe naming the team after an internal combustion engine may not be politically prudent.

Not a fan of the Walleye. Too reminiscent of the Marlins

5 hours ago, TradBball said:

I'll admit, I'm a St. Louis Cardinal fan.  I have no ill will, or dislike whatsoever with the Cleveland baseball team. Probably because the Indians are in the American League. I'm a little surprised at how some of the posters here are taking this name change in stride. If the Cardinals were forced into this, or willfully did it, it would rip a piece out of my heart.  

 

I am not taking this in stride, yet at the same time I feel stupid, even a bit childish for caring so much for a sports team. But I was just talking to my neighbor and he is not happy at all. He's a diehard Tribe fan and his dad played for the Indians. He said he'll change his allegiance to the local team (Padres) if/when the team drops "Indians."  

 

I'm still holding out hope they'll keep the name and reach out to the native American community and offer tangible support. Imagine a deal where MLB and the Cleveland Indians can channel a percentage of merch sales into funds for education, jobs, training and cultural preservation efforts. There still haven't been any commissioned polls that have measured exactly where Native Americans stand on the issue. We obviously know there's some noteworthy protesters, and I've met Native Indians fans....but my guess would be the majority of them don't really care either way, but we just don't know. But again, I'd bet sentiments on the name would change if the Indians earned the goodwill that other teams have ie Seminoles, Utes, etc. 

 

I hate virtually all of the new name suggestions and I can hardly listen to Cleveland sports radio now because of drunk sounding people suggesting "The Cleveland Supermen" or "how about the Cleveland Cops or the Cleveland Lake Erie's" nonsense lol. All the good sports names have already been taken people. 

40 minutes ago, TradBball said:

I think The Cleveland Engines is very "Cleveland" and holds to tradition. 

I've only owned the Windsor, but I think Cleveland should show pride in their motor. It is also very American...if that's still a good thing.

"Course looking ahead, maybe naming the team after an internal combustion engine may not be politically prudent.

‘Engine’ is pronounced nearly exactly like Injun, the derogatory term for native Americans. I know you meant it honestly, and a callback to our city’s industrial roots/peak is appealing, but I think that name change would just lead to even more outrage and debate. Just treads too close to the territory we’re trying to move out of, so to speak.  

5 hours ago, viscomi said:

I pretty sure I speak for most of us tribe fans in saying that a small piece of us will die inside when the Indians are fully scrubbed, but this didn't just start last week it has been building for decades. Plus when the Chief went away that kind of desensitized me to a name change.  

 

I supported the end of Chief Wahoo because it was clearly racist.  I don't support the name change because I don't think it's offensive.  "Indians" isn't even an accurate name for Native Americans.  

6 hours ago, TradBball said:

I'll admit, I'm a St. Louis Cardinal fan.  I have no ill will, or dislike whatsoever with the Cleveland baseball team. Probably because the Indians are in the American League. I'm a little surprised at how some of the posters here are taking this name change in stride. If the Cardinals were forced into this, or willfully did it, it would rip a piece out of my heart.  

 

That said,  I think I've found a way to accomplish this and still hang on to the team's tradition.
You can't really name the team after a group of people, or anything you might anticipate a future group of people might identify as. It has to be an inanimate object, or an inanimate object that doesn't indirectly lead to an association with a minority group, or any group that was oppressed or has any way adopted victim hood, or could easily be used by white liberals who see an opportunity to turn such group into victims for political gain and power.

Here is my suggestion. You car people should appreciate this:
How does The Cleveland Engines sound?

As another poster stated, this has been building for a while. I think we are all

mentally prepared.  I went to the 1995 World Series as a kid and my late great grandfather went to the 1920 World Series. Indians fandom runs deep in my family. But it’s time to change. Change is fine and exciting. My kids kids will be rooting for the baseball team in 30-40 years. Their memories will be the same if they are called the Indians or the engines.  It’s just a name

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by BelievelandD1

1 hour ago, BelievelandD1 said:

As another poster stated, this has been building for a while. I think we are all

mentally prepared.  I went to the 1995 World Series as a kid and my late great grandfather went to the 1920 World Series. Indians fandom runs deep in my family. But it’s time to change. Change is fine and exciting. My kids kids will be rooting for the baseball team in 30-40 years. Their memories will be the same if they are called the Indians or the engines.  It’s just a name

 

In 30-40 years I'm afraid your kids will be watching an even more woke generation chunking the statues of Feller, Thome, Doby, Robinson and Boudreau in the Cayuhoga River.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by TradBball

Just stop.

2 minutes ago, X said:

Just stop.

That is the answer to all of this.

16 hours ago, TradBball said:

I'll admit, I'm a St. Louis Cardinal fan.  I have no ill will, or dislike whatsoever with the Cleveland baseball team. Probably because the Indians are in the American League. I'm a little surprised at how some of the posters here are taking this name change in stride. If the Cardinals were forced into this, or willfully did it, it would rip a piece out of my heart.  

 

That said,  I think I've found a way to accomplish this and still hang on to the team's tradition.
You can't really name the team after a group of people, or anything you might anticipate a future group of people might identify as. It has to be an inanimate object, or an inanimate object that doesn't indirectly lead to an association with a minority group, or any group that was oppressed or has any way adopted victim hood, or could easily be used by white liberals who see an opportunity to turn such group into victims for political gain and power.

Here is my suggestion. You car people should appreciate this:
How does The Cleveland Engines sound?

 

i say instead of shutting them out, keep the native american link and go with the cleveland first nations, but i really like the idea of guardians too.

 

the doby's is a great honorific, but like the naps, kind of oddball. i could get with it tho.

 

spiders ain't happeniing, but what about the cleveland lake shores ?? i like that one a lot.

 

i am gearing myself up to be really disappointed here ...

1 minute ago, surfohio said:

 

Indian isn't a derogatory term. 

 

Game over.

We can disagree about that, ref. 

 

1 minute ago, westerninterloper said:

We can disagree about that, ref. 

 

 

So you don't go to Indians games then? Because if I were actually offended by the name I wouldn't 1. go see them play 2. listen to them on the radio and 3. hang around the CLEVELAND INDIANS DISCUSSION THREAD on urbanohio.

 

But here you are.

5 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Indian isn't a derogatory term. 

 

Game over.

OK then. What if the team was the Cleveland Blacks and they had a Sambo character as the mascot for a century?

You don’t even have to go that far. You could substitute Cleveland African Americans. It’s insane to have a team named after a race of people. And don’t even start with trying to suggest the name “honors” native Americans. 

2 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

So you don't go to Indians games then? Because if I were actually offended by the name I wouldn't 1. go see them play 2. listen to them on the radio and 3. hang around the CLEVELAND INDIANS DISCUSSION THREAD on urbanohio.

 

But here you are.

HHahahah what

1 minute ago, surfohio said:

 

So you don't go to Indians games then? Because if I were actually offended by the name I wouldn't 1. go see them play 2. listen to them on the radio and 3. hang around the CLEVELAND INDIANS DISCUSSION THREAD on urbanohio.

 

But here you are.

4 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

So you don't go to Indians games then? Because if I were actually offended by the name I wouldn't 1. go see them play 2. listen to them on the radio and 3. hang around the CLEVELAND INDIANS DISCUSSION THREAD on urbanohio.

 

But here you are.

I hate the Cleveland Indians, I have never been to a game, and I will never go to a Cleveland Indians game. I'm here because I fully support getting rid of mascots that claim to "honor" people who were ethnically cleansed from this state, who've never had any input in how their names and identities have been used and abused by sports companies. I have many decades of experience working with Indigenous people in the US and Asia, and I'm here only in that interest. I frankly do not give a single solitary turd about an organization like the Indians, or the Redskins, or the Braves.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by westerninterloper

9 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Indian isn't a derogatory term. 

 

Game over.

Especially if referencing ACTUAL Indians.  

Maybe rework Wahoo into Apu?  ?

All right then, I'm glad to have a sincere discussion. I was on a reservation in Arizona and met several people wearing the Chief Wahoo hat. They were Indians fans. Now I don't know how many Indians fans there are among Native population, as far as I know there are no commissioned polling on that. But at least anecdotally I know that not all are offended by the name or even the logo. So I guess my point is don't assume that all people in a group think the same way.

 

 

Charlie Brown is portraying white boys as blockheads.  He needs to go. Homer Simpson is portraying white men as fat and stupid.  He needs to go. Mr. Magoo is mocking the visually impaired. He needs to go.  Oh, wait.  They are white.  Never mind.  

 

 

9 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

I hate the Cleveland Indians, I have never been to a game, and I will never go to a Cleveland Indians game. I'm here because I fully support getting rid of mascots that claim to "honor" people who were ethnically cleansed from this state, who've never had any input in how their names and identities have been used and abused by sports companies. I have many decades of experience working with Indigenous people in the US and Asia, and I'm here only in that interest. I frankly do not give a single solitary turd about an organization like the Indians, or the Redskins, or the Braves.

 

Thank you for your service then. That is awesome. But you're never going to get the Seminole Tribe to stop supporting Florida State University. You telling them they're wrong to do so is frankly condescending as all hell.

1 minute ago, skiwest said:

Charlie Brown is portraying white boys as blockheads.  He needs to go. Homer Simpson is portraying white men as fat and stupid.  He needs to go. Mr. Magoo is mocking the visually impaired. He needs to go.  Oh, wait.  They are white.  Never mind.  

 

 

 

Homer is not white. ?

Just now, jam40jeff said:

 

Homer is not white. ?

Kind of yellow haha. 

12 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Especially if referencing ACTUAL Indians.  

Maybe rework Wahoo into Apu?  ?

 

So the Native Americans who proudly call themselves "Indians" are ignorant, backwards, traitorous Uncle Tom's? Perhaps they just need enlightened and privileged white's to better educate them on their choices. 

 

Please. 

Just now, surfohio said:

 

Thank you for your service then. That is awesome. But you're never going to get the Seminole Tribe to stop supporting Florida State University. You telling them they're wrong to do so is frankly condescending as all hell.

I didn't mention the Seminoles, you did. I mentioned pro sports teams with absolutely ZERO connection to any Indigenous people. If the Seminole Tribe decides that that millions and millions of dollars from college sports is worth it to them, that's their decision. What, really, have the Indians, or the Redskins, Braves, Chiefs, or other pro sports team done to really connect and help their fans understand in greater depth who Navajos, Lakota, Anishnaabe, people are? I don't mean like sending money to a reservation, or a photo-op, but really invested time, energy, and have adapted what they're doing based on their interaction with living Indigenous people? MAYBE Florida State has done that, but it's telling that out of all of the NCAA teams with racist native names, only Florida State could convince a tribe to go along with it. There is no defense of these team names. 

1 minute ago, surfohio said:

 

So the Native Americans who proudly call themselves "Indians" are ignorant, backwards, traitorous Uncle Tom's? Perhaps they just need enlightened and privileged white's to better educate them on their choices. 

 

Please. 

 

I was merely pointing out that it was the first European explorers who applied the misnomer.   

Just now, jam40jeff said:

 

I would encourage you to edit your post and use strikethrough and a different color when you quote someone but change what they said.

Fair enough - will do. 

30 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Indian isn't a derogatory term. 

 

Game over.

 

27 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

We can disagree about that, ref. 

 

 

I think this is the thing we need to figure out somehow.  We need to figure out what Native Americans think about the term.  If it is deemed to be derogatory, we should listen and the name should change.  If they either don't care or most of them actually think it's kind of cool in some way, then it should stay.  That's the reason names like Vikings and Fighting Irish are considered OK.  (I doubt you'd see any Irish ND people complaining about their mascot, so it's not considered derogatory.)

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by jam40jeff

1 minute ago, westerninterloper said:

I didn't mention the Seminoles, you did. I mentioned pro sports teams with absolutely ZERO connection to any Indigenous people. If the Seminole Tribe decides that that millions and millions of dollars from college sports is worth it to them, that's their decision. What, really, have the Indians, or the Redskins, Braves, Chiefs, or other pro sports team done to really connect and help their fans understand in greater depth who Navajos, Lakota, Anishnaabe, people are? I don't mean like sending money to a reservation, or a photo-op, but really invested time, energy, and have adapted what they're doing based on their interaction with living Indigenous people? MAYBE Florida State has done that, but it's telling that out of all of the NCAA teams with racist native names, only Florida State could convince a tribe to go along with it. There is no defense of these team names. 

 

Then perhaps you read where I suggested (and been suggesting for years) that the Cleveland Indians actually earn the name by supporting Native education, job training, internships, etc. And FYI the Ute Tribe supports Utah.  

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I was merely pointing out that it was the first European explorers who applied the misnomer.   

 

Well yeah, they were idiots I suppose! 

 

Hey mods can we get a separate thread for the name change issue? 

2 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Well yeah, they were idiots I suppose! 

 

Hey mods can we get a separate thread for the name change issue? 

Please leave the discussion here. The issue of the racist name of the team cannot and should not be separate from the team and its fans. 

6 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

 

I think this is the thing we need to figure out somehow.  We need to figure out what Native Americans think about the term.  If it is deemed to be derogatory, we should listen and the name should change.  If they either don't care or most of them actually think it's kind of cool in some way, then it should stay.  That's the reason names like Vikings and Fighting Irish are considered OK.  (I doubt you'd see any Irish ND people complaining about their mascot, so it's not considered derogatory.)

 

The Brooklyn Italians are a storied soccer team in NYC. I have met a few Irish guys from Dublin that hate the ND logo. But are ambivalent about changing it. It's arguably offensive. 

 

But yes, if there has been polling on what Natives think of the term I'd be very interested in seeing results. Again, my guess would be that a significant number don't really care. Maybe the Indians fans I met were an outlier?   

1 minute ago, surfohio said:

 

The Brooklyn Italians are a storied soccer team in NYC. I have met a few Irish guys from Dublin that hate the ND logo. But are ambivalent about changing it. It's arguably offensive. 

 

But yes, if there has been polling on what Natives think of the term I'd be very interested in seeing results. Again, my guess would be that a significant number don't really care. Maybe the Indians fans I met were an outlier?   

Why not just read the endless statements written for decades by organized groups of Indigenous peoples who oppose these mascots? Why the fetishization of "voting" or "polling"? What possible reason can one advocate for keeping these mascots? 

Timeline from 1968-2003. Note that the Indians were the first pro team listed, protests going back to 1970. 

https://www.nativevillage.org/Messages from the People/timeline for Indian Mascots.htm

 

A TIME-LINE ON THE FIGHT TO GET RID OF THE OFFENSIVE MASCOTS

1968

National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) launches campaign to address stereotypes found in print and in other media

 

1969

NA activists at Dartmouth College continue to promote changes in that school's Indians nickname. replaced soon by Big Green

 

1970

University of Oklahoma retires its Little Red mascot that had been traditional since 1940's

Protests against Cleveland Indians baseball team - Chief  Wahoo - take place in Cleveland.

 

1971

Marquette University (MI) abandons its Willie Wampum mascot. Prior to the 1994 season,  the MU changed Warriors to Golden Eagles.

 

1972

A petition by AI students at Stanford University results in the school dropping Indian sports team nickname and logos.

Dickinson State (ND) changes from the Savages to the Blue Hawks.

Increasing efforts begun in the 1960's, First Nations students at the University of North Dakota (UND) take steps to retire the school's Fighting Sioux nickname.

 

1979

Syracuse University (NY) did away with Saltine Warrior mascot.

St Bonaventure, NY, retired it's Brown Indians and Brown Squaws sports team mascots.

 

1980

Southern Oregon University ends a tradition begun in 1950 when its Red Raiders sports teams cease using several depictions of Indian chiefs as mascots and symbolic logos for sporting events

 

1988

The Michigan State Civil Rights commission issues a report on nicknames, logos, and mascots depicting NA people in Michigan education institutions

Minnesota State Board of Education adopts a resolution stating that "the use of mascots, emblems, or symbols depicting American Indian culture or race (is) unacceptable." and encourages all districts to immediately proceed to remove such mascots.

Public schools in Wisconsin begin to change their American Indian related sports team logos, mascots, and nicknames. As of 1998, 21 schools - almost 1/3 - of the total using such icons, had changed.

Siena College in NY drops Indians - are now Saints.

Saint Mary's college (MN) changes from Red Men to the Cardinals.

 

1989

Charlene Teters, NA graduate student attending University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, initiates efforts to eliminate that school's Chief Illiniwek.

 

1991

Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs requests 27 public schools in that state to end their use of American Indian names and mascots.

The National Education Associate (NEA) the largest educational organization of its kind in the world, passes resolutions in 2 consecutive years (91/92) denouncing the use of ethnic related sports team mascots, symbols, and nicknames.

Eastern Michigan University changes its Huron nickname to Eagles.

Advocates protest at the Minneapolis Metrodome where Superbowl XXVI found the Buffalo Bills pitted aginst Washington Redskins.

 

1992

Seven Native Americans filed a lawsuit against the Washington Redskins football club and petitioned the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office for cancellation of federal registrations for Redskins and Redskinettes...and associated names of the team in the nation's capital.

Portland Oregonian announces it will no longer use the word "Redskins" and several other American Indian related terms in print.

Radio stations WASH and WTOP in Washington DC also adopt similar policies.

Simpson college, drops its Redmen and Lady Reds to Storm.

Despite a lawsuit and over 2000 signatures signed in protest, Naperville Central High School (IL) switches its nickname from Redskins to Redhawks. Grand Forks Central High School (ND) changes its sports teams' nickname from Redskins to Knights.

 

1993

National Congress of American Indians issues a resolution which "denounces the use of any American Indian name or artifice associated with team mascots."

Arvada High School, near Denver Col, drops its Redskins sports team nickname

 

1994

The State of Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction issues a directive "strongly urging" all Wisconsin schools using American Indian related mascots to discontinue such uses.

Enumclaw Junior High School (WA) dropped its "Chieftain" mascot.

Hartwick College in Oneonta, New York, exchanged it's "Warriors" nickname for "Hawks."

As a show of appreciate for having changed its "Indian" mascot, Park High school in Cottage Grove, Minnesota, is awarded $10,000 by the Prairie Island Mdewakanton Sioux Community.

Prior to the 1994-95 season Marquette University retired its "Warriors" nickname in favor of "Golden Eagles."

 

1995

St. John's, the largest Catholic university in America, drops its "Redmen" nickname in favor of "Redstorm."

 

1996

University of Tennessee at Chattanooga discontinues the use of its "Chief Moccanooga" mascot.  The following year the team's "Moccasins" nickname was shortened to "Mocs" in reference to Tennessee's state bird, the Mockingbird.

Miami University of Ohio (Oxford, OH) drops its "Redskins" nickname.

The Toronto Bluejays triple-A farm team in Syracuse, NY, heeds concerns expressed by advocates and changes its nickname from the "Chiefs" to the "Skychiefs."

Hull Western Christian school in Hull, Iowa, is honored by the Sioux City Human Rights Commission for retiring the school's "Indians" mascot/logo.

In a process that began in 1995, Adams State University (Alamosa, CO) changes its mascot from an "Indian" to a "Grizzly."

Newtown High School in Sandy Hook, Connecticut drops its "Indians" nickname in favor of the "Nighthawks."

The United Methodist Church takes an official stance Concerning Demeaning Names to Native Americans as well as on other related topics.

Fremont High School in Sunnyvale, California, changed its mascot from "Indians" to "Firebirds"

Students at Hortonville, Wisconsin, adopt a non-recognition policy stating their school will not use cheers, names, etc., related to "Indian" sports team tokens employed by opposing teams.

 

1997

Jay Rosenstein's documentary "In Whose Honor" is aired nationally on the Public Broadcasting System TV show "Point of View." Mr. Rosenstein's film highlights Charlene Teters' efforts to eliminate the "Chief Illiniwek" mascot used by the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

The Board of Education for the Los Angeles, California consolidated school district moves to eliminate "Indian" related mascots from four schools in its jurisdiction.

The minor league Canton-Akron "Indians" rename themselves the Akron "Aeros" and boost their merchandise sales from $60,000 to $1.2 million, the largest merchandise income of any minor league team.

 

1998

Yakima College (Washington State) respects concerns expressed by its American Indian community and elects to retire the institution's race-related mascot.

The Kansas Association for Native American Education (KANAE) issues a resolution that "...calls for the elimination of use of American Indian mascots and logos in all public and private schools in the State of Kansas..."

The American Jewish Committee approves a statement on team names which notes it "deplores and opposes the use of racial or ethnic stereotypes in the names or titles of business, professional, sport or their public entitles when the affected group has not chosen the name itself."

Approximately 200 anti-"Indian" mascot activists from around the country converge at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana for the first national Conference on the Elimination of Racist Mascots.

A federal judge upholds the Los Angles consolidated school board's 1997 decision to eliminate several "Indian" related mascots and nicknames from its district.

Southern Nazarene University, a small Christian school in Bethany, Oklahoma, retires its "Redskins" nickname in favor of "Crimson Storm."

New York State Education Department Commissioner directs his staff to undertake a statewide review of public schools using American Indian related sports team tokens.

Despite personal hardships faced by a White Mountain  Apache student and his family, a bitter five year struggle at a public school in Medford, Wisconsin ends victoriously when the school is compelled to drop its "Screaming Indian with Mohawk haircut" logo.

Oregon's Chemeketa Community College drops its "Chiefs" nickname and selects "Storm" for its new one.  Since the 1970s, twenty high schools in Oregon have also changed their "Indian" related nicknames and mascots.

National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee concludes that "Indian mascots that promote Indian caricatures and mimic ceremonial rites do not comply with the NCAA's commitment to ethnic student welfare."

Following a complaint made by the program manager for American Indian Education, 10 public schools in Dallas, Texas, make plans to retire their respective "Indian" mascots by the end of the 1998-99 school year.

Oklahoma City University, a college affiliated with the United Methodist Church, decides to replace its "Chiefs" nickname dating back to 1944.

Morningside College of Sioux City, Iowa, changes its nickname from the "Maroon Chiefs" to the Mustangs.

 

1999

The Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council, a consortium of twelve federally recognized Indian tribes, issues a resolution calling for the end of  "the use of depictions of and cultural references to American Indians as mascots, logos, and team nicknames in Wisconsin public schools."

Erwin High school in Asheville, NC is investigated for discrimination by the United States Department of Justice because of its "Indian" related nicknames and mascot.

A panel in Utah decides that the word "Redskins" is a derogatory term and forbids its use on motor vehicle license plates.

Citing educational concerns about misinterpretations of the crayon color's name, Crayola announces plans to change "indian red" to something less ambiguous.

A landmark victory concludes a legal battle begun in 1992 as a three-judge panel of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office rules that the term "Redskins" is a term disparaging to Native Americans and tends to bring them "into contempt or disrepute."  The decision has the potential to strip the Washington NFL team of trademark protections.

Millard South High in Omaha, Nebraska, one of the largest schools in the state, graciously decides to change its "Indians" spirit symbol.

Following the lead of its Champaign-Urbana branch, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) unanimously approves a second mascot resolution.

Detailing a number of important points and concerns, The Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs issues a mascot resolution.

Appalled by the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana's use of a stereotypic "Indian" mascot the prestigious Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas offers a formal position on Illiniwek.

Following almost ten years of controversy, a high school in Milton, Wisconsin, retires its "Redmen" nickname.

The U.S. Census Bureau adopts a policy on non-use of Athletic Teams with American Indian or Alaska Native Names in Promoting Census 2000

In an poll conducted by the National Spectator's Association, 60% of respondents indicate they want the "Wahoo" logo of the Cleveland Major League Baseball team to be changed.

Research conducted by a college professor debunks the myth that the Cleveland MLB team was named in "honor" of Louis Sockalexis, one of the first Native Americans to play for that club.

Rickards High in Florida wisely decides to retire its 40 year old "Redskins" nickname.

Oklahoma City University finalizes plans to change its "Chiefs" nickname to "Stars."

ESPN airs a special program on Native Americans in sports and which contains a segment on the mascot issue.  Follow-up coverage included an insightful online chat session with leading advocate, Suzan Shown Harjo.

The Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americans issues a position statement that  receives recognition in a publication of  the prestigious American Psychological Association.

The main Cleveland area public library enacts a dress code that prohibits its 700 employees from wearing garments bearing "Wahoo" images.

Ten schools in the Dallas, Texas, area follow through on a 1997 decision to change their "Indian" sports team tokens.

The Hutchinson Human Relations Commission, Hutchinson Kansas, issues a resolution

 

2000

Hendrix College in Arkansas retires its stereotypic "Indian-head" logo while retaining its "Warriors" nickname.

Seattle University, a Jesuit school in Washington State, completes its transition from the "Chieftains" to the "Redhawks."

Frontier High School in Deerfield, Massachusetts,  changes it "Redskins" nickname.

Niles West High School in Skokie, Illinois, retires its "Indians" nickname.

Onteora High School in Boiceville, New York, retires its "Indians" nickname and other related practices only to see reactionary school board candidates win seats and reinstate the school's "Indian" sports team token.  The district is believed to be the first in the country to repeal an anti-discrimination policy in order to keep its racial icon.

Hiawatha, Kansas, retires the "Redskins" nickname from all schools in its district.

The Canajoharie school district in New York state retires use of the "Redskins" nickname.

 

2001

Saranac Lake, New York, retires the "Redskins" nickname from all schools in its district.

After failing to take action on an appeal that was filed five years earlier, the New York State Education Department calls for the retirement of institutionalized "Indian" sports team nicknames, mascots, and logos from its public schools.

The school board for Penfield High School, near Rochester, NY, displays a healing gesture and votes 7-0 to retire the school's "Chiefs" sports team token.

Sagamore Hills Elementary school in Atlanta, Georgia, decides it will no longer use a "Chiefs" mascot and prepares to consider alternative ways of showing support for that city's MLB team besides school-wide "tomahawk chops" and war chants.

By the unanimous vote of its school board, Afton, NY, public schools exhibits good judgment and retires its "Indians" mascot.

In an action that removes all doubt about the seriousness of concerns surrounding the use of "Indian" sports team tokens, The United States Commission on Civil Rights issues a position statement calling for educational institutions to avoid use of such ethnic nicknames and mascots.

Parsipanny High School in Parsipanny, NJ, exhibits courageous vision by retiring its racial slur "Redskins" nickname.

Following its President's recommendation, along with support from coaches and student government leaders, Southwestern College in Chula Vista, California, wisely elects to change its "Apaches" mascot to "Jaguars."

The Bell-Chatham board of education in Illinois votes in favor of retiring the "Redskins"and "Braves" nicknames used by its schools.

Illinois Valley Community College in Oglesby, Illinois, retires its "Apaches" nickname and provides a good example that the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana and other institutions using "Indian" sports team tokens would do well to follow.

Advocates from across the country convene at the Northern Plains Conference on American Indian Team Names and Logos held at the University of North Dakota, Grand Forks.

The Minnesota Indian Education Association adopts a resolution in opposition to the University of North Dakota's use of the "Fighting Sioux" name and logo.

Irondequoit High School, near Rochester, New York, makes plans to replace its "Indians" nickname.

The Modern Language Association passes a resolution on mascots and symbols. The MLA includes over 30,000 members in the fields of English, foreign languages, and linguistics.

The Quinnipiac University Board of Trustees Votes To Discontinue Use of 'The Braves' Nickname

Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Kentucky, changes it's "Indian" themed mascot to "Patriots."

Stating the district will not use any mascot that reflects any identifiable group by age, race, color, gender, religion or national origin, the District 87 school board voted to retire Bloomington High School's (Illinois) American Indian mascot.  BHS kept the Purple Raiders nickname.

 

2002

The Iowa Civil Rights Commission passed a Resolution Opposing the Use of Native American Images, Mascots, and Team Names in Iowa

The Durham (North Carolina) franchise in the summer collegiate Coastal Plain League changed its nickname from Braves to Americans. The Minnesota State Colleges and Universities Board adopted a resolution against discriminatory logos, names, mascots and nicknames

West High School in Oshkosh Wisconsin retired its "Indian" themed mascot.

Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts decided its sports teams will no longer be known as Mohawks.

New Hampshire State Board of Education unanimously approved a resolution calling for local school districts to stop using American Indian sports mascots.

Southeastern Community College, in West Burlington, Iowa, makes a smart and painless change by dropping the "Indian" association to its "Blackhawk" nickname and changing it to reflect a bird of prey, the "Black Hawks."

Martin Methodist College in Pulaski, Tennessee, changed its sports team nickname from "Indians" to "Redhawks"

 

2003

Joining the ranks of other newspapers that have also adopted similar guidelines the Nebraska Journal Star newspaper amends its style and, along with other related changes, will no long print the "Redskins" racial slur.

The Telegraph-Forum, a newspaper in Central Ohio, discontinues its use of "Chief Wahoo."

The Michigan State Board of Education passes a resolution that "supports and strongly recommends the elimination of American Indian mascots, nicknames, logos, fight songs, insignias, antics, and team descriptors by all Michigan schools."

The Peoria Chiefs, a minor league affiliate of the Chicago Cubs, changes it logo from an American Indian to a Dalmatian fire chief.

Reprint permission thanks to: Terri Jean, director of the Red Roots Educational Project,  http://www.terrijean.com

Messages from the People: Native Village Home Page

 

 

15 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

 

I think this is the thing we need to figure out somehow.  We need to figure out what Native Americans think about the term.  If it is deemed to be derogatory, we should listen and the name should change.  If they either don't care or most of them actually think it's kind of cool in some way, then it should stay.  That's the reason names like Vikings and Fighting Irish are considered OK.  (I doubt you'd see any Irish ND people complaining about their mascot, so it's not considered derogatory.)

 

5 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

The Brooklyn Italians are a storied soccer team in NYC. I have met a few Irish guys from Dublin that hate the ND logo. But are ambivalent about changing it. It's arguably offensive. 

 

But yes, if there has been polling on what Natives think of the term I'd be very interested in seeing results. Again, my guess would be that a significant number don't really care. Maybe the Indians fans I met were an outlier?   

One important difference is that Norte Dame’s nickname was driven by a heavily Irish American student body, and the Vikings were named by Scandinavian Americans in Minnesota.  Native Americans had NOTHING to with picking Cleveland baseball’s name. 

 

3 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

Why not just read the endless statements written for decades by organized groups of Indigenous peoples who oppose these mascots? Why the fetishization of "voting" or "polling"? What possible reason can one advocate for keeping these mascots? 

 

Because organized groups are not necessarily indicative of how representative they are. See The Tea Party.

1 minute ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

One important difference is that Norte Dame’s nickname was driven by a heavily Irish American student body, and the Vikings were named by Scandinavian Americans in Minnesota.  Native Americans had NOTHING to with picking Cleveland baseball’s name. 

Exactly. Sports mascots have tended to fall into three categories: Animals, Dead People, and Living People. 

 

I really see no harm in adopting plants, animals or emotions as mascots. 

 

For dead people, Vikings, Spartans etc etc, do not reference living people, but usually come from the historical traditions of the people adopting the name. Most of these tend to be European in the US, because we draw on those traditions. 

 

For living people, it matters if the mascot references the people creating the team. Fighting Irish is a great example - it was a Catholic school with a large Irish population promoting the mascot when Irish folks faced considerable discrimination - remember, that was the era of the KKK in Indiana and the Midwest.This is also why Hoosiers, Mountaineers, "Buckeyes", are just fine. The people in control of the imagery of the mascot are the same people. 

 

This is why Indian mascots are wrong -- native people have never had any control over how their identity, religion, traditions are used, and it shows - these teams employ caricatures of living people long employed by Whites. This is also why we see almost no other teams named after other minority groups in the US (unless the team is comprised of minoritized people). So whether or not some Native American people on the Navajo Reservation wear those caps, it doesn't really matter - it wasnt made for them, they arent surrounded by that imagery all the time here in Ohio like we are. 

 

9 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

This is why Indian mascots are wrong -- native people have never had any control over how their identity, religion, traditions are used, and it shows - these teams employ caricatures of living people long employed by Whites. This is also why we see almost no other teams named after other minority groups in the US (unless the team is comprised of minoritized people). So whether or not some Native American people on the Navajo Reservation wear those caps, it doesn't really matter - it wasnt made for them, they arent surrounded by that imagery all the time here in Ohio like we are.

 

All mascots are caricatures.  What's important is whether or not the people being caricatured believe it to be offensive or not.  If a significant number of Native Americans find it offensive, I'm all for changing it.  If it's only a couple activists (one being proven corrupt already) and a bunch of well-meaning none-Native Americans, then I don't think it's necessary.

 

Speaking of some of the examples you referenced, some people (not most, but some) consider "hoosier" as a derogatory term.

 

My point is that I'm all on board with changing the name if it's done for the right reasons, but not just because it's the cause-du-jour for wanna be "do-gooders."

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by jam40jeff

This is the best I could find and it's worth a read....286 pages! There's indeed a diversity of opinions on the subject. 

 

 

 

NATIVE SUPPORT FOR CHIEF WAHOO

August, 2012

 

Oda, another NatPride participant, acknowledged that "some people have a problem with [Chief Wahoo] because of the red feather," but she doesn't "see any problem with the mascot." Oda agreed that Chief Wahoo is "a caricature," but insisted that the logo's creation "had nothing to do with any prejudices against the Native Americans." "I don't have a problem with [the Cleveland Indians logo]," Oda said, "because that … keeps people thinking that, you know, there is a culture out there, and that culture is right here in the middle of the city." Similarly, Cheryl (NatPride) stated 197 that she "just love" the mascot and thinks it is "a positive thing" because it provides non-Native Ohioans with a point of reference when she discloses her Indian identity.

 

"When you say you're Native American," Cheryl said, people sometimes respond – "Oh, you're a Cleveland Indian?" Cheryl laughed and continued, "Not quite, but … now you're understanding. Yeah, yeah, I wear the beads and the feathers." For Oda and Cheryl, Cleveland's Indian mascot is not problematic because it is a "feel good" image that draws attention to Indians in the NE Ohio environment.

Interestingly, in the year that I knew Cheryl, I never saw her dressed in beads and/or feathers. She did not dance at powwows, and consequently, rarely (if ever) wore Indian regalia. The clothing she wore on a day to day basis was similar to that of any other middle aged woman in the United States. Cheryl, like other NE Ohio Natives, was rarely recognized as American Indian – maybe in part because she did not wear accessories such as beads or feathers to work or to the grocery store (for instance) – yet she did not link her racial miscategorization to the one-dimensional portrayals of Indianness to which NE Ohioans have been exposed.

 

I did not interview any RelOH members who, like Oda and Cheryl, were staunch supporters of Cleveland's pseudo-Indian imagery, but they did exist. For instance, Berta told me about "a young Indian guy" she knows who "has a big Indian logo tattooed on his leg." She was "just shocked" when she saw it because he is "full blooded Native." Berta quickly explained that this young man believes Chief Wahoo is honorable because "he is … assimilated into the dominant culture."

 

Susan similarly blamed processes of assimilation on some Natives' indifference to the issue. She talked about a different young man and RelOH member whom she overheard saying that Native protestors are "just old-fashioned." "How could you say that?" Susan thought when she overheard his statement; "You should be proud of your background, but you're not!" According to Susan, many non-protesting Native community members were young (urban) Indians who "grew up in [NE Ohio]" and "have nothing to do with their reservation at home, nothing to do with their culture, their language." "Basically," said Susan, "they're completely assimilated or something!"

 

From NEGOTIATING AMERICAN INDIAN IDENTITY IN THE LAND OF WAHOO

A dissertation submitted to the Kent State University College of Arts and Sciences in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy

 

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=kent1342364012&disposition=inline

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by surfohio
the strikethru??

hey now -- just for the record, its not all controversial for cle sports. 

 

some fashionable, woke black folks around ny town do like to rock modern day browns merch.

 

because.

 

i commend their taste.

19 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

All mascots are caricatures.  What's important is whether or not the people being caricatured believe it to be offensive or not.  If a significant number of Native Americans find it offensive, I'm all for changing it.  If it's only a couple activists (one being proven corrupt already) and a bunch of well-meaning none-Native Americans, then I don't think it's necessary.

 

Speaking of some of the examples you referenced, some people (not most, but some) consider "hoosier" as a derogatory term.

 

My point is that I'm all on board with changing the name if it's done for the right reasons, but not just because it's the cause-du-jour for wanna be "do-gooders."

I agree about Hoosier - that's where I "interlope" from and I have a bunch of degrees from IUB. It's fine in that case because it's located in Bloomington; it would not be alright if it were located in St. Louis, where Hoosier is an insult. It's also interesting to note that the Indiana Hoosiers have not a mascot for years and years, and the few times they did they were never really popular, because people do not like to see themselves caricatured. 

 

That shows again why Indians violates those patterns and why people have been protesting it for 50 years. 

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by westerninterloper

17 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

It's also interesting to note that the Indiana Hoosiers have not a mascot for years and years, and the few times they did they were never really popular, because people do not like to see themselves caricatured.

 

So if people don't want to be caricatured by a hoosier mascot, and therefore they got rid of the mascot but kept the name Hoosiers, why couldn't the same be true of Indians?  I don't know whether the are OK with this or not, but I also believe *you* can't know as well, unless you're Native American and know a large number of Native Americans.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by jam40jeff

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

 

Thank you for your service then. That is awesome. But you're never going to get the Seminole Tribe to stop supporting Florida State University. You telling them they're wrong to do so is frankly condescending as all hell.

The big difference is that FSU has reached out to the Seminole Tribe and works with them.They include Seminoles in their decision in order to actually honor. FSU provides scholarships and they ensure that all imagery is authentic. 

 

https://unicomm.fsu.edu/messages/relationship-seminole-tribe-florida/

4 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The big difference is that FSU has reached out to the Seminole Tribe and works with them.They include Seminoles in their decision in order to actually honor. FSU provides scholarships and they ensure that all imagery is authentic. 

 

https://unicomm.fsu.edu/messages/relationship-seminole-tribe-florida/

 

 

not to mention any of that merch with fsu on it is ever popular with ny teens. to them it stands for effin sh*te up lol.

 

 

3 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The big difference is that FSU has reached out to the Seminole Tribe and works with them.They include Seminoles in their decision in order to actually honor. FSU provides scholarships and they ensure that all imagery is authentic. 

 

https://unicomm.fsu.edu/messages/relationship-seminole-tribe-florida/

 

Again this is what I'm advocating for. Changing the name is just a symbolic gesture. While there is some value in that, I much prefer tangible contributions to Native peoples. The team and MLB have the resources and perhaps more importantly the visibility to encourage more private support. 

4 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Again this is what I'm advocating for. Changing the name is just a symbolic gesture. While there is some value in that, I much prefer tangible contributions to Native peoples. The team and MLB have the resources and perhaps more importantly the visibility to encourage more private support. 

I think that would be fine too. I'd have no problem with this.

^ thats why i think they should keep the tie in the name with changing to the cleveland first nations.

 

then do more to build that up with events and service.

 

if the new moniker is something else that opportunity is lost.

15 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think that would be fine too. I'd have no problem with this.

 

12 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ thats why i think they should keep the tie in the name with changing to the cleveland first nations.

 

then do more to build that up with events and service.

 

if the new moniker is something else that opportunity is lost.

 

I don't see any momentum for doing anything substantively beneficial. I think that is what's so frustrating for me personally. I've been downvoted into oblivion on reddit by for suggesting as much.