Just now, surfohio said:

 

 

I don't see any momentum for doing anything substantively beneficial. I think that is what's so frustrating for me personally. I've been downvoted into oblivion on reddit by for suggesting as much. 

I think if Dolan were to create a partnership with a native group, they'd be able to keep everyone happy. I'm not sure what NA organizations exist in Ohio though.

I think the name is changing regardless of what anyone wants. Trying to maintain some connection with Cleveland baseball history seems like the best way that the Indians front office will appease anyone who is not yet on board with the idea. If not the Spiders, I would like to see some motif off of the Forest City teams such as the Foresters or Forester's Club which could have the team nicknamed Cleveland FC. Their alternative nickname could be the Fellers, both referring to Bob Feller, and a nickname for Foresters. I doubt the public will have much say in the outcome either way.

Just now, freefourur said:

I think if Dolan were to create a partnership with a native group, they'd be able to keep everyone happy. I'm not sure what NA organizations exist in Ohio though.

 

There are a few mentioned in that Kent State dissertation I posted. Those should be prime candidates I would think. Really this should've been done years ago, but it's not too late. 

1 hour ago, jam40jeff said:

 

So if people don't want to be caricatured by a hoosier mascot, and therefore they got rid of the mascot but kept the name Hoosiers, why couldn't the same be true of Indians?  I don't know whether the are OK with this or not, but I also believe *you* can't know as well, unless you're Native American and know a large number of Native Americans.

I do know a lot of Native Americans, and I am not Native myself. This is not a question I think where one's race is important. I'm upset about this as a White Midwesterner and resident of Ohio, not because I'm not Native. 

 

The difference is that the Hoosiers are Indianans, the people of the state's namesake University - and the people of Cleveland are not Native Americans. 

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by westerninterloper

12 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

I do know a lot of Native Americans, and I am not Native myself. This is not a question I think where one's race is important. I'm upset about this as a White Midwesterner and resident of Ohio, not because I'm not Native.

 

What do the Native Americans you know have to say?

 

Why are you personally upset about the name without knowing how it is viewed by others?  The only reason I see to be upset is if you know Native Americans are upset about it.  Otherwise, you're speaking for them, which seems a bit self-righteous and condescending.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by jam40jeff

24 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

What do the Native Americans you know have to say?

 

Why are you personally upset about the name without knowing how it is viewed by others?  The only reason I see to be upset is if you know Native Americans are upset about it.  Otherwise, you're speaking for them, which seems a bit self-righteous and condescending.

Most of them do not like the mascots. The difference is that most of the Native mascots are in places were very few Native people live, like Ohio, or Georgia, or Washington DC - it's all places where they were shoved out of. So the Native people I know don't live surrounded by those images every day on the reservation - I can recall seeing maybe one or two people wearing an Indians cap ironically, but most of the folks I know dislike them. Most of the folks I knew there were Broncos or Packers fans. Again, I don't think there is a way to do this respectfully - particularly something like "indians" which is a White person's understanding of the Indigenous people here - it is itself a racial category, a way to erase tribal identities (and thus land title - "Indians" don' t have rights, only tribal members do), it was an instrument of white supremacy itself. 

 

And I'm not speaking "for" them - I'm speaking for myself. It's allowed to be White and be pissed off about what White people are doing. 

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by westerninterloper

Someone said they spoke with natives in Arizona that liked the indians.  In 2017 i was in New Mexico for work, i went to the predominantly Indian town of Gallup.  I was actually surprised to see multiple Cleveland Indians hats there.  But at the end of the day, its not about the Natives that like the logo.  It is about the Natives who are offended.  Im an Italian man.  If an organization was called the Wops (or even the Paisano's or Italians) and the logo was a kooky Italian face that clearly was caricatured...I personally wouldnt care.  I have thick skin and  dont really care about crap that doesnt impact my day to day life.  But to think all of the Italians and Italian Americans out there in the world WOULDNT be offended...that is pretty closed minded.  Just like any issue in life, there will be two sides...and in this case, you have to side with those who are impacted..Not everyone processes things the same way.

20 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Someone said they spoke with natives in Arizona that liked the indians.  In 2017 i was in New Mexico for work, i went to the predominantly Indian town of Gallup.  I was actually surprised to see multiple Cleveland Indians hats there.  But at the end of the day, its not about the Natives that like the logo.  It is about the Natives who are offended.  Im an Italian man.  If an organization was called the Wops (or even the Paisano's or Italians) and the logo was a kooky Italian face that clearly was caricatured...I personally wouldnt care.  I have thick skin and  dont really care about crap that doesnt impact my day to day life.  But to think all of the Italians and Italian Americans out there in the world WOULDNT be offended...that is pretty closed minded.  Just like any issue in life, there will be two sides...and in this case, you have to side with those who are impacted..Not everyone processes things the same way.

I think this is more like Berlin calling their soccer team the Jews

22 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Someone said they spoke with natives in Arizona that liked the indians.  In 2017 i was in New Mexico for work, i went to the predominantly Indian town of Gallup.  I was actually surprised to see multiple Cleveland Indians hats there.  But at the end of the day, its not about the Natives that like the logo.  It is about the Natives who are offended.  Im an Italian man.  If an organization was called the Wops (or even the Paisano's or Italians) and the logo was a kooky Italian face that clearly was caricatured...I personally wouldnt care.  I have thick skin and  dont really care about crap that doesnt impact my day to day life.  But to think all of the Italians and Italian Americans out there in the world WOULDNT be offended...that is pretty closed minded.  Just like any issue in life, there will be two sides...and in this case, you have to side with those who are impacted..Not everyone processes things the same way.

 

Like Mario and Luigi?

21 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Someone said they spoke with natives in Arizona that liked the indians.  In 2017 i was in New Mexico for work, i went to the predominantly Indian town of Gallup.  I was actually surprised to see multiple Cleveland Indians hats there.  But at the end of the day, its not about the Natives that like the logo.  It is about the Natives who are offended.  Im an Italian man.  If an organization was called the Wops (or even the Paisano's or Italians) and the logo was a kooky Italian face that clearly was caricatured...I personally wouldnt care.  I have thick skin and  dont really care about crap that doesnt impact my day to day life.  But to think all of the Italians and Italian Americans out there in the world WOULDNT be offended...that is pretty closed minded.  Just like any issue in life, there will be two sides...and in this case, you have to side with those who are impacted..Not everyone processes things the same way.

It would be like me, a whiter-than-white white boy from rural indiana whose family is from "indiana" (that's what one aunt said when I asked about family history), I have very little experience with Italy or Italian-Americans. I could make up a pretty dumb caricature of "Wops" with lots of stupid accents and hand gestures and spaghetti though, just having seen that imagery in movies and so on, and like you said, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it or think it was funny, particularly if 40,000 of your neighbors dressed up and inhabited that character for a game about 50 times a year. But why don't we survey Italian-Americans and find out if they really would hate it. 

9 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

Like Mario and Luigi?

 

Some teams use baseballs.  We use meatballs.

21 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

I could make up a pretty dumb caricature of "Wops" with lots of stupid accents and hand gestures and spaghetti though, just having seen that imagery in movies and so on, and like you said, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it or think it was funny, particularly if 40,000 of your neighbors dressed up and inhabited that character

 

4 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Someone said they spoke with natives in Arizona that liked the indians.  In 2017 i was in New Mexico for work, i went to the predominantly Indian town of Gallup.  I was actually surprised to see multiple Cleveland Indians hats there.  But at the end of the day, its not about the Natives that like the logo.  It is about the Natives who are offended.  Im an Italian man.  If an organization was called the Wops (or even the Paisano's or Italians) and the logo was a kooky Italian face that clearly was caricatured...I personally wouldnt care.  I have thick skin and  dont really care about crap that doesnt impact my day to day life.  But to think all of the Italians and Italian Americans out there in the world WOULDNT be offended...that is pretty closed minded.  Just like any issue in life, there will be two sides...and in this case, you have to side with those who are impacted..Not everyone processes things the same way.

 

That was me in Arizona. Also just an FYI the Brooklyn Italians are a much storied soccer team in NYC. They even won the US Open Cup in 1991.

 

https://www.brooklynitalians.org/

4 hours ago, viscomi said:

 

 

 

 

Don't drop the N-bomb on UrbanOhio.  Ever.  There isn't a brighter line.  No matter how good a point you think you are making.  Not even if you strike out a vowel with asterisks.

 

Don't do it.

 

Don't.

odds as of july 8th —

 

The full list of odds, provided by BetOnline.ag, includes the following:

 

Spiders +300

Naps +400

Guardians +500

Buckeyes +600

Dobys +700

Wild Things +800

Blue Sox +900

Rocks +1000

Cuyahogas +1500

Crows +2000

Rockers +2000

Unions +2500

Fellers +3300

Great Lakers +4000

^ surprised that "Forresters" is not on the list.

I don't like any of those names.  Spiders sounds too creepy.  How about Chiefs?  I think that name is generic enough that it doesn't need to be associated with Native Americans.

24 minutes ago, skiwest said:

I don't like any of those names.  Spiders sounds too creepy.  How about Chiefs?  I think that name is generic enough that it doesn't need to be associated with Native Americans.

I'm with you as far as that list with the exception of Blue Sox, I actually like that a lot. I think Chiefs runs into the same problem as The Tribe maybe more so in that they're both still to closely aligned to the original problem. That to me is a shame since I really still favor the Cleveland Tribe. A hard no on Rocks or anything like it and lets stay away from former player names.  Blue Sox and lets move on.

^ My second favorite on that list and I like the logo.

Cleveland Guardians sounds like an Arena Football team to me. 

 

How about the Cleveland Outfielders....since we have 18 of them.

On 7/17/2020 at 12:38 PM, skiwest said:

I don't like any of those names.  Spiders sounds too creepy.  How about Chiefs?  I think that name is generic enough that it doesn't need to be associated with Native Americans.

 

"just let us be a little bit racist, please!!!"

Edited July 24, 20204 yr by DarkandStormy

 WFNY has a good conversation on the name change. I don’t have a favorite, but I did also like Cleveland Commodores, Buzzards, Freighters, and Forest City Rapids .

 

https://waitingfornextyear.com/2020/07/cleveland-indians-name-change-no-spiders/
 

Nice buzzard logos. Maybe iHeart would license since they need cash:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/okpants/status/1111095656544956416?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1111095656544956416|twgr^&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwaitingfornextyear.com%2F2020%2F07%2Fcleveland-indians-name-change-no-spiders%2F

 

12 hours ago, surfohio said:

^ surprised that "Forresters" is not on the list.

 

What's a Forrester, one who "forests"?  What does that mean?  The "Indians" doesn't offend me in any way though I understand the issue, so would not be up in arms if the name is changed. If the mascot were my ethnicity, I would not care, because its a baseball team is not a reflection of my peoples.  But if the name must be changed, I guess I'd go with Cleveland Spiders.  As a second choice I like the Buzzards----as it reminds me of the good ol days of WMMS 101 (and later 100.7 once digital dials on radios came out). 

Edited July 18, 20204 yr by Pugu

20 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

What's a Forrester, one who "forests"?  What does that mean?  The "Indians" doesn't offend me in any way though I understand the issue, so would not be up in arms if the name is changed. If the mascot were my ethnicity, I would not care, because its not a baseball team is not a reflection of my peoples.  But if the name must be changed, I guess I'd go with Cleveland Spiders.  As a second choice I like the Buzzards----as it reminds me of the good ol days of WMMS 101 (and later 100.7 once digital dials on radios came out). 

 

One who drives a Suburu?

 

Hey man Indians gets my vote, which is worth exactly nothing I guess. 

Okay, okay...just hear me out...I’m only half-serious, but why not honor the Pro Baseball HoF inductee (with a baseball-relevant name) himself...and...

It’s beautiful

Interesting article:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29475406/bring-back-cleveland-spiders-really-bad-know

 

Inside the above article is this link with Spiders logos and whatnot:

http://michaelmcfarlandmusic.com/2016/10/24/cleveland-baseball-time-for-a-new-name-and-logo-cleveland-spiders/

^I’m all for the rebranding, but absolutely against Spiders. It’s a horrible option. 

Agreed.  Spiders are the grossest thing alive, and really have nothing to do with Cleveland specifically.  Unless the point is that there's no way we should possibly want to do anything original in 2020.

On 7/8/2020 at 12:49 PM, jam40jeff said:

 

So if people don't want to be caricatured by a hoosier mascot, and therefore they got rid of the mascot but kept the name Hoosiers, why couldn't the same be true of Indians?  I don't know whether the are OK with this or not, but I also believe *you* can't know as well, unless you're Native American and know a large number of Native Americans.

I happen to know a lot of Native Americans and Indigenous people around the world, that has been my research topic for about 25 years. 

 

Indiana University is located in Indiana, where the people are known as Hoosiers. Hoosiers own "Hoosiers". That's why they never came up with a palatable mascot, because mascots are reductive and ripe for simple stereotyping. That's why we use animals overwhelmingly for sports mascots. 

 

The Cleveland Indians play in Cleveland, which has no Native American tribe, reservation or historical community of Indigenous people remaining. (There are thousands of individuals, but no organized community). The same can be said of Ohio as a whole. The Cleveland "Indians" are about White people dressing up as Indians and caricaturing that identity. Cleveland is not in Indian Country, is not led by Native people, and does nothing for Native people. Clevelanders are not "Indians".  

Edited July 20, 20204 yr by westerninterloper

2 hours ago, westerninterloper said:

The Cleveland "Indians" are about White people dressing up as Indians and caricaturing that identity. Cleveland is not in Indian Country, is not led by Native people, and does nothing for Native people. Clevelanders are not "Indians".  

 

Indians fans exist in all colors. 

2 hours ago, westerninterloper said:

The Cleveland Indians play in Cleveland, which has no Native American tribe, reservation or historical community of Indigenous people remaining. 

The Pittsburgh Pirates play in Pittsburgh which has no pirates that I am aware of.

9 minutes ago, skiwest said:

The Pittsburgh Pirates play in Pittsburgh which has no pirates that I am aware of.

 

There's no steel mills in Pittsburgh either. It's actually an interesting point that sports names really are kind of all over the board. Utah Jazz? That's a name that absolutely sounds better for New Orleans. 

23 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

There's no steel mills in Pittsburgh either. It's actually an interesting point that sports names really are kind of all over the board. Utah Jazz? That's a name that absolutely sounds better for New Orleans. 

 

The Jazz do not play in New Orleans.

The Saints do.

 

Neither of these makes sense.

25 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

There's no steel mills in Pittsburgh either. It's actually an interesting point that sports names really are kind of all over the board. Utah Jazz? That's a name that absolutely sounds better for New Orleans. 

 

 

Ironically the Utah Jazz were formed in New Orleans, hence the name Jazz.  I can find more cities that name their teams after something relevant to their city than not.  Even old school names like Bears, Tigers, Lions are so old as names that they are part of the history of the NFL. 

 

What i absolutely cannot stand are just dumb, lame names like the Carolina Panthers, the Nashville Predators, the Tennessee Titans, pretty much any growing southern city that gets a franchise will be sure to botch their name because they dont really have much history in their city to tie to a team name

1 hour ago, BelievelandD1 said:

What i absolutely cannot stand are just dumb, lame names like the Carolina Panthers, the Nashville Predators, the Tennessee Titans, pretty much any growing southern city that gets a franchise will be sure to botch their name because they dont really have much history in their city to tie to a team name

 

I could be wrong but I thought "panthers" were indigenous to the Southeast U.S.A.? 

 

Anyhow one problem with sports names is that it's pretty late in the game so to speak, so many good ones are already taken lol. 

 

"I am a Heat."

- Hot Rod Williams after signing with Miami. 

24 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

I could be wrong but I thought "panthers" were indigenous to the Southeast U.S.A.? 

That's the basis for the Florida Panthers NHL team. Pretty much anything within a 50 mile radius of the US/Canadian border and south to the tip of South America had or has cougars. There are still Florida panthers in Florida (actually cougars), but they're pretty much extinct from the eastern half of the United States now outside of that lone population in Florida.


EDIT: And the Carolina Panthers show a black panther in the logo, which is found in Asia and Africa. Nowhere close to the US. So they aren't really pulling from local history.
 

Guardians, using the Lorain Carnegie Bridge guardians as the logo, is the real and true answer. It feels so right, it feels more Cleveland than the Indians, I want it and I want it yesterday.

^Agree with this 100%. In terms of cool branding, Cleveland SC got there first, but I’d be happy with the Indians doing a deal to borrow it. 
 

6 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

The Jazz do not play in New Orleans.

The Saints do.

 

Neither of these makes sense.

 

The Jazz were from New Orleans.  And "Oh when the Saints.....dah dah dah dah....come marching in....." explains the other.

4 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^Agree with this 100%. In terms of cool branding, Cleveland SC got there first, but I’d be happy with the Indians doing a deal to borrow it. 
 

 

Almost a kind of ancient greece/rome vibe with the leaf-crown thing. Kind of interesting no American teams use that kind of Caesars Palace style theming

On 7/20/2020 at 5:28 PM, mu2010 said:

Guardians, using the Lorain Carnegie Bridge guardians as the logo, is the real and true answer. It feels so right, it feels more Cleveland than the Indians, I want it and I want it yesterday.

 

 

indeed -- since it seems like the whole honoring the native folk thing is going to get tossed out the window and my choice of 'first nations' isn't even mentioned on any list, i am throwing in with this 'guardians' moniker idear. whole heartedly. its easy to say and get behind. you can even pull out your old oughties era defend cleveland tee shirts and all that. bring it on!

Opening game in 48 hours. F it, I'm excited! 60 games beats 0.

26 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Opening game in 48 hours. F it, I'm excited! 60 games beats 0.

 

I'm just wondering how the TV broadcasts will go with no fans in the stands.   Will they leave the mics open so we can hear the banter and trash talk between the players?   Could be a new found level of fun in watching baseball!  ?

They have been using fake crowd noise for the games on the radio.  I assume they will do the same for TV.

4 minutes ago, skiwest said:

They have been using fake crowd noise for the games on the radio.  I assume they will do the same for TV.

Ah I have not tuned in yet.   So is it like Tribe/Cubs World Series crowd?   

 

Or an April game at the old Muni stadium, with 2,500 in attendance?  ?

I only listened for a brief period, but it sounded more like April at Muni stadium.

yeah the mets and yankees game had cardboard cut out fans in the stands and fake crowd noises. it was bizzare.

 

i dk what to think of this.

 

of course go tribe and i am glad to have baseball, but its such a worry it takes the fun away.

 

btw -- i saw that it looks like the redskins are going to be the dc sentinels, so i think that helps open the door to the similar sounding cle guardians moniker.