31 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

Why do you think some Native Americans protest team names like the Indians, while Irish don't protest the Celtics and Fighting Irish? Read through the Native press today and you'll see almost 100% approval of dropping the Indians name. 

 

That's the activists.   

22 hours ago, mkeller234 said:

Was that Tom Hanks narrating the video???

 

22 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

He got his first acting job in Cleveland at Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival in the 1970s and went to a lot of games. 

 

Just saw this parody of the video that starts with addressing that very question:

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's the activists.   

There are no Irish activists? Why don't they object to team names in their image/history?

3 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

There are no Irish activists? Why don't they object to team names in their image/history?

 

Each group is different.   But the Irish activists don't tend to be separatists.   In the US, anyway.

 

I'm half Polish and if they wanted to call them the Cleveland Polacks and have a round faced "stereotypical" guy as a mascot, I'm good with that.  Especially if they win.   I doubt there would be many complainers.

10 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

There are no Irish activists? Why don't they object to team names in their image/history?

It was the Irish that gave ND their mascot name. These are not comparable situations. 

28 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Each group is different.   But the Irish activists don't tend to be separatists.   In the US, anyway.

 

I'm half Polish and if they wanted to call them the Cleveland Polacks and have a round faced "stereotypical" guy as a mascot, I'm good with that.  Especially if they win.   I doubt there would be many complainers.

You also have to consider the power imbalance that exists for group like the American Indians versus a subgroup of European descendants. That's not to say that stereotypes and prejudices haven't existed against European immigrants, but those groups weren't systemically oppressed in the same way, i.e. western culture appropriates American Indian culture, shaping it to fit our need, whereas Europeans, well, they are western culture...

I'm not a big fan of the logo design, I think they should lean hard into the art deco aesthetic, but I think there's good reason to think the design will chang. To prevent leaks I would guess they didn't test logo designs w/ a focus group. So knowing it would change they probably went the cheap route, kept a similar font and ran with it. 

 

All speculation, but think its worth waiting to see how things develop. 

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by Luke_S
spelling/grammar

Should also ask why so many sports teams have Native mascots, but I don't think any have African American. Also, why did White folks welcome Native athletes on their teams and go on to "celebrate" and "honor" Native Americans with mascots, while fighting so hard to keep African Americans off those same teams? What explains that difference in treatment by the Polacks? 

 

E Rocc I think you should have fought harder for the Polack mascots...oh wait, Poles are too stupid to keep their own country independent...would have been a pretty weak mascot, right? I mean, who would be proud to be associated with Poland? 😄

 

Using our fellow citizens and neighbors as mascots invites this kind of BS-ery. A mascot literally means "a pet"; mascota in Spanish, for example. So using living people, neighbors, fellow citizens as "pets" in our games is exceptionally demeaning unless those same people are in charge of the team and have named it after themselves. No Irish in Boston, huh? There is no honor in making pets of other people. Make them of yourselves if you wish. It's not an honor. 

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by westerninterloper

51 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

You also have to consider the power imbalance that exists for group like the American Indians versus a subgroup of European descendants. That's not to say that stereotypes and prejudices haven't existed against European immigrants, but those groups weren't systemically oppressed in the same way, i.e. western culture appropriates American Indian culture, shaping it to fit our need, whereas Europeans, well, they are western culture...

 

The Irish in particular were marginalized pretty hard.   

52 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

You also have to consider the power imbalance that exists for group like the American Indians versus a subgroup of European descendants. That's not to say that stereotypes and prejudices haven't existed against European immigrants, but those groups weren't systemically oppressed in the same way, i.e. western culture appropriates American Indian culture, shaping it to fit our need, whereas Europeans, well, they are western culture...

 

"Cultural appropriation" is something healthy cultures do.   And welcome.

10 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

The Irish in particular were marginalized pretty hard.   

 

9 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

"Cultural appropriation" is something healthy cultures do.   And welcome.

 

Yes, I acknowledge that. I don't want to minimize it, marginalization of any group is a terrible thing. However, I'm not even sure we're talking about differences of degrees here, its differences in kind. The Irish weren't forced out of their homelands, the Irish weren't systemically massacred by the US Army, the Irish weren't taken as children from their families and placed in schools so they would learn Western culture instead of their own culture. The Irish also didn't face generational marginalization. 

 

Again, marginalization of any kind is bad and shouldn't happen, but American Indians weren't just marginalized. 

 

I also think you're conflating cultural appropriation and cultural assimilation. One is taken and distorted without the input of the culture, the other is given with consent and guided by the culture.  

 

Here is ultimately where I come down on this: when someone tells me, as a white guy, that something is offensive, the burden is not on them to justify why they are offended. I think its also the case that my kneejerk reaction shouldn't be to then explain to them why its not offensive. My lived experience is so very different that I should take the time to understand why it could be offensive. 

 

Maybe its the case that the Irish, and in your case Polish, did and still do face harsh marginalization and I should do more work to understand that perspective. Though, I think if that was the case you might be more sympathetic to the complaints of American Indians who are upset that their name was taken and a caricature used without their input or consent and they receive no benefits. From my understanding Florida State has done this comparatively well by working with the Seminole tribe. 

Have to admit that parody video made me LOL a few times…

The Irish suffered in their own country, and some here, but were never subjected to the legal structures of assimilation like Native Americans or segregation like Black Americans. Most spoke English, were Christian, and accessed power very quickly. Plenty of presidents had Irish heritage, going back to Andrew Jackson. The comparison is specious and deflecting. 

16 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

hmm, its kinda true because if the As move to vegas or where ever i would guess they pick a new name.

They kept the Athletics name in three different cities. (Philly and Kansas City before Oakland.) Why would they change it upon another move?

Donald Trump called it a 'disgrace.' I don't understand why people feel so strongly either way, about it. I can see why it was offensive, though not nearly as offensive as "Red Skins." It just seems like a major headache for marketing and merch. It costs millions of dollars to get rid of old logos everywhere and replace them.

I'm tired of hearing comparison's between the plight of Irish and Black Americans. It's such a ridiculous comparison. I can't even tell the difference between white people and Jews, let alone able to pick out an Irish person. I guess you could way back in the day, by their accent but that would have been the only marker. 

It's funny when white people start talking about all of their sub-groups. No one cares. You're just white. I'm just white. We're all just white.

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

Yeah it's like your family is "German" even though when they were there it wasn't even Germany. It could even have been France.

Yeah, what's the deal with White people loving to claim their German ancestry? People in my family do that and it's all just made up. Like how everyone is 1/16th Cherokee Indian for some reason (I totally get it though if it's for tax purposes.) I'd much rather be associated with the Cherokees (they make a great Jeep) rather than be associated with Nazis, lederhosen, accordions, wack @ss food and overpriced Audis that break down 10 seconds after the 3 year warranty is up.

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

OK, can we get back to the Guardians?

Anyone wearing a "Cleveland Indians" shirt is going to look like the biggest racist d-bag on the planet. Time to throw out the old gear and buy new gear.

People in Cleveland still call Progressive, "The Jake." This is going to take some time to transition. If anyone says, "The Tribe" they're going to sound like the folks in Chillocothe who still call Black people, "coloreds." 

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

6 minutes ago, David said:

Anyone wearing a "Cleveland Indians" shirt is going to look like the biggest racist d-bag on the planet. Time to throw out the old gear and buy new gear.

 

this was just posted on twitter minutes ago (I'll not say by whom). I knew the guy on the right in high school (he was on the Painesville City council--for one term), but I swear I don't look that old--lol. Obviously he's learned nothing in the past 24 hours. hmmph! But I wonder how many other people are wearing Chief Wahoo hats today🤔

 

16 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

this was just posted on twitter minutes ago (I'll not say by whom). I knew the guy on the right in high school (he was on the Painesville City council--for one term), but I swear I don't look that old--lol. Obviously he's learned nothing in the past 24 hours. hmmph! But I wonder how many other people are wearing Chief Wahoo hats today🤔

 

They've been talking about the name change for years... I'm sure there are people purposely wearing that stuff. The 5$ truck stop "America" shirt wasn't a coincidence. The fact that he bought a red hat probably isn't a coincidence. Maga nuances.

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

this is 'Murca

^isn't red the only color those hats come in?😉 I made a point a couple of weeks ago (on another thread) that I occasionally see young Latino guys in New York wearing Wahoo hats, and I didn't understand their affinity for the Indians. Next time I see this I'm going to have to ask them. But just last week I saw, on my block, a delivery man who was Black wearing one (although yes, he could have also been Latino). I was going to ask him about it but he sped off too fast. Don't know if he was African-American or foreign though. I mean, all those people of color who wear Wahoo hats can't be racist, can they? 🤷‍♂️

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by eastvillagedon

I don't know how else to put this... I refuse to believe that some white people are THAT obvlious to their own nuances. I purposely don't buy horribly made T-shirts that say "America" on them, from Pilot/Flying J and I purposely don't buy hats that are red. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

I don't know how else to put this... I refuse to believe that some white people are THAT obvlious to their own nuances. I purposely don't buy horribly made T-shirts that say "America" on them, from Pilot/Flying J and I purposely don't buy hats that are red. 

obviously wearing this hat on the day after the name change was deliberate, but the real issue most likely has nothing to do with race than with the name of a beloved team that people have cherished for generations. It's like changing the name of an iconic food brand. In fact, the Indians may be Cleveland's most famous association worldwide. Who hasn't heard of them? It's like changing the name of the Statue of Liberty to The Big Woman Made of Copper With the Torch. Think of how long it would take for people to get used to that!

 

 

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by eastvillagedon

5 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

obviously wearing this hat on the day after the name change was deliberate, but the real issue most likely has nothing to do with race than with the name of a beloved team that people have cherished for generations. It's like changing the name of an iconic brand. In fact, the Indians may be Cleveland's most famous association worldwide. Who hasn't heard of them? It's like changing the name of the Statue of Liberty to The Big Woman Made of Copper With the Torch. Think of how long it would take for people to get used to that!

 

 

 

Wasn't it like 1948 when they last won a championship? Iconic brand entirely depends on who you're talking to. I don't care about baseball. I'm a big UFC / martial arts fan so when I think of Cleveland I think of Stipe Miocic. He's the only person that's won any kind of title/championship representing the city in probably decades.

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

Why was this thread heading changed? They are still the Indians until 2022.

33 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Why was this thread heading changed? They are still the Indians until 2022.

We get 6 months to wear our Cleveland Indians shirts without being considered a racist?

The team will likely make mint selling new Guardians gear to fans. That's been the pattern when teams change names. 

30 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

The team will likely make mint selling new Guardians gear to fans. That's been the pattern when teams change names. 

That's probably the whole motivation behind all of this. This is what it takes to get the Cleveland Indians in the national headlines. And they paid Forrest Gump to do their PR...

Everyone keeps saying, "I prefer Cleveland Rocks!" Are people not aware that 'rocks' are a slang term for crack-cocaine? Stop saying you prefer Cleveland Rocks!

 

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

 

Re the logo debate. I’d imagined that it was designed more for future fans than current. Small sample size, but my teenage kids and all their friends think it’s great. 

I used to be into basketball and I hated any time one of my favorite players switched teams. My jersey became instantly outdated and I looked ridiculous wearing the old one and was forced to buy a new one so I can't help but wonder if it's a ploy to sell new merch instead of this all just being a result of good intentions.

Edited July 24, 20213 yr by David

Meanwhile this team is finally starting to falter…so much for the reload it officially will be a rebuild.  

 

And frankly I don’t expect the brain trust that is in place to accomplish much of anything.  For a mid-market team you need to rely on drafting and scouting.  And this team has never been very good at it, especially for position players.  A few good trades here and there have helped keep the momentum going for a few years, and aside from an unfortunate fade in the 2016 WS there really haven’t been too many successful playoff series.  

 

Sooo….it will be back to the drawing board for these guys.  And I hate to say that, as they are my favorite CLE team.

 

 

4 hours ago, David said:

I used to be into basketball and I hated any time one of my favorite players switched teams. My jersey became instantly outdated and I looked ridiculous wearing the old one and was forced to buy a new one so I can't help but wonder if it's a ploy to sell new merch instead of this all just being a result of good intentions.

Why were you “forced” to buy a new one? How old are you? Lol

I just shake my head at adults wearing custom $$ jerseys of players no longer with that team; I was like that when I was 14 lol. 🤦🏻‍♂️🤷‍♂️

7 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

Why were you “forced” to buy a new one? How old are you? Lol

I just shake my head at adults wearing custom $$ jerseys of players no longer with that team; I was like that when I was 14 lol. 🤦🏻‍♂️🤷‍♂️

 I was 14, too lol.

Edited July 25, 20213 yr by David

10 minutes ago, David said:

 I was 14, too lol.

Full disclosure: I was 14 in the early 90’s and 1) there were no Tribe players worth buying jerseys for and 2) my parents couldn’t have afforded them

if there were lol

One more cool old pic—carved on Random Road in Little Italy.

10 hours ago, BigMacky said:

Meanwhile this team is finally starting to falter…so much for the reload it officially will be a rebuild.  

 

And frankly I don’t expect the brain trust that is in place to accomplish much of anything.  For a mid-market team you need to rely on drafting and scouting.  And this team has never been very good at it, especially for position players.  A few good trades here and there have helped keep the momentum going for a few years, and aside from an unfortunate fade in the 2016 WS there really haven’t been too many successful playoff series.  

 

Sooo….it will be back to the drawing board for these guys.  And I hate to say that, as they are my favorite CLE team.

 

 

This is an incorrect take. The front office is one of the best in baseball and their record in the Tito era shows that. The ownership has always been the real issue.

I now hear people outside of CLE asking, "what is Cleveland guarding?" with our new horrible name, we have to hear statements like that, at least for a few months.

@roman totale XVIIand @Boomerang_Brian- you may not like my post above, but it is true nonetheless. At least such teasing or mocking questions like that will only continue while the news is new; after that, I'm sure it will fade away.

23 minutes ago, Pugu said:

@roman totale XVIIand @Boomerang_Brian- you may not like my post above, but it is true nonetheless. At least such teasing or mocking questions like that will only continue while the news is new; after that, I'm sure it will fade away.

That wasn't what merited the downvote.  "...with our new horrible name" is what earned the downvote.  I stand by it. 

 

Feel free to hold an opinion about the name.  The bottom line is that nothing you have proposed is even remotely a superior option.

 

I will repeat that there are ways to express negative opinions that wouldn't come across as being obnoxious.

This article from the Columbus Dispatch captures my opinion pretty closely:

 

Rob Oller | Cleveland hits home run with Guardians nickname (but the cartoon logo must go)

 

https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/2021/07/23/cleveland-guardians-replaces-indians-baseball-teams-nickname-tribe-major-league-baseball-logos/8069708002/

Edited July 25, 20213 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

4 hours ago, Pugu said:

@roman totale XVIIand @Boomerang_Brian- you may not like my post above, but it is true nonetheless. At least such teasing or mocking questions like that will only continue while the news is new; after that, I'm sure it will fade away.

Oh no! You’re getting butthurt because people are calling us names?!? I got past that when I turned 14. All the tenor of your posts do is reveal your own fragilities. 
Anyhoo, where’s that ‘ignore’ feature…?

4 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

That wasn't what merited the downvote.  "...with our new horrible name" is what earned the downvote.  I stand by it. 

 

Feel free to hold an opinion about the name.  The bottom line is that nothing you have proposed is even remotely a superior option.

 

I will repeat that there are ways to express negative opinions that wouldn't come across as being obnoxious.

They should have went with the Steamers as a nod to the old industrial history and all the ships that would steam into port on Lake Erie 😀

1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said:

Oh no! You’re getting butthurt because people are calling us names?!? I got past that when I turned 14. All the tenor of your posts do is reveal your own fragilities. 
Anyhoo, where’s that ‘ignore’ feature…?

 

Hmmmm... @roman totale XVIII was simply referring a new round of Cleveland jokes which we as a city don't need.  You need to hit the "ignore" button? Sounds like you're regressing to your pre-14 year old days if you can't handle that not everyone in the world likes the new team name like you do.

I don't understand why they would unveil the new name and logos without new merchandise available. Are those official logos that I've seen? They're so easy to steal. Stuff is being sold on Etsy and all of those places where I'm guessing you just upload a vector file to them and the third party prints it on shirts, mugs, etc. and delivers it to the customer. They're going to lose a significant amount of money from that. 

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

Hmmmm... @roman totale XVIII was simply referring a new round of Cleveland jokes which we as a city don't need.  You need to hit the "ignore" button? Sounds like you're regressing to your pre-14 year old days if you can't handle that not everyone in the world likes the new team name like you do.

 

Who cares about another round of "Cleveland jokes" around the name of a sports team?  Sports team names are all pretty silly, Guardians no more or less than others.  At least the jokes about us being a bunch of racist yokels who are too stupid to get why a ridiculous caricature is offensive to the people it's a caricature of will slowly come to an end.  Unless *sigh* ...until... the local racist yokels decide they're going to drag the issue out forever, that is.

8 hours ago, David said:

I don't understand why they would unveil the new name and logos without new merchandise available. Are those official logos that I've seen? They're so easy to steal. Stuff is being sold on Etsy and all of those places where I'm guessing you just upload a vector file to them and the third party prints it on shirts, mugs, etc. and delivers it to the customer. They're going to lose a significant amount of money from that. 

I’ve heard it was to prevent a leak.  They had wanted to announce it later (for $$$ reasons and more), but had to get ahead of whatever news was going to come out… especially so they could control the message. 

Edited July 26, 20213 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

18 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

I’ve heard it was to prevent a leak.  They had wanted to announce it later (for $$$ reasons and more), but had to get ahead of whatever news was going to come out… especially so they could control the message. 

Now all ownership needs to do is spend some payroll, field a championship caliber team and win a World Series.    The Indians name would soon be forgotten, and Guardians swag sales will be epic.