But yes, the McGuire thing was great while it lasted. I was only in like 8th grade at the time, but I went to a few games with the straight-A tickets the Cards give out. I think I saw homerun #40 if I remember correctly..... Man that was a long time ago.

 

Stop it, kid. You're making me feel old. The homerun record chase seems like yesterday to me.

But yes, the McGuire thing was great while it lasted. I was only in like 8th grade at the time, but I went to a few games with the straight-A tickets the Cards give out. I think I saw homerun #40 if I remember correctly..... Man that was a long time ago.

 

Stop it, kid. You're making me feel old. The homerun record chase seems like yesterday to me.

 

It was 1998...... 

 

Today's game was the Albert Pujols show.....

Damn you, St. Louis ... damn you.

Sorry, I didn't hear/see any of today's game. I'll admit, I've watched very little of the Indians this year. My sister works for them and every so often she invites me to go when she has a spare ticket for free. But I won't pay for a game (nothing personal, as I haven't paid to go to any professional sports game in Cleveland in years).

Penobscot Indian Nation seeking greater recognition for ex-Cleveland Spider Sockalexis

by Associated Press

Tuesday July 28, 2009, 8:21 PM

 

INDIAN ISLAND, Maine -- Leaders of Maine's Penobscot Indian Nation say it's time for a pioneering baseball player from their tribe to be properly recognized for his contributions to America's pastime.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/penobscot_indian_nation_seekin.html

damn....we need a new owner...

 

Sparse Crowds Will Likely Mean Sparse Payroll for the Tribe Next Season

Submitted by Eugmc on July 29, 2009 - 10:52am.

 

The Cleveland Indians have the second lowest average home attendance in the American League.  Next season, the team will likely reflect their poor performance at the gate (22,241 fans per game) with a drastically reduced payroll.  The New York Post is reporting that the Indians will trim their payroll to a miserly $55 Million next season and try to dump both Victor Martinez and Cliff Lee at the trade deadline. 

 

Joel Sherman wrote yesterday:  An AL exec said he was "1,000 percent" certain that Lee and and Victor Martinez would be traded for financial reasons.  This executive described the Indians as devastated by their combination of bad play and a poor economy with the need to have about a $55 Million payroll in 2010.  Cleveland has already committed $33M to three pretty much untradeable players (Travis Hafner, Kerry Wood, Jake Westbrook).  So the fire sale will likely be worse than what you probably are already are expecting and the Indians will probably be nearly unwatchable till at least 2011.

 

Full story at http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/10790

damn....we need a new owner...

 

A new owner?  No we need new management and scouting and minor league development!

no, we need a new MLB.  There is no such thing as competetive balance the way the league is currently set up.  Everything has to go perfect for mid market teams to compete, and beyond perfect for small market teams.  The "rightsizing" of payrolls is not unique to the Cleveland Indians.

Apparently Cliff Lee is gone to Philadelphia, and the next to go is Martinez.

Baseball is a joke of a sport, MLB is a joke of a league, and this just goes to further my case.

Sources: Phils to get Lee from Indians

pathetic.  here's Cliff Lee for your poo-poo platter of players on the DL and pitchers with 5+ ERAs in AAA...and on yeah, another catcher you can add to Martinez (gone soon I imagine), Shoppach, and the guy currently in our minor league system who is supposed to be a top prospect.

I've drank their BS kool-aid too much.. I'm done with them for awhile.. Go Yanks.

I've drank their BS kool-aid too much.. I'm done with them for awhile.. Go Yanks.

 

I just threw up in my mouth (again).  The Indians brass are now converting people to Yankee fans?!?!?  I'd rather start following the WNBA.

 

Sad its come to that.

I've drank their BS kool-aid too much.. I'm done with them for awhile.. Go Yanks.

 

Just do as i did and stop watching MLB all together.

I hate Dolan.  he has ruined this franchise.  Its impossible to get attached to any players and for little kids to have heroes because they are gone within a couple years.  He surrendered next year as well.  I hope there is NOONE in the seats.  Also, the fact that we cant fill a stadium hurts the surrounding businesses as well from a summer long party.  What a selfish, cheap son-of-a b!tch

Shapiro didnt get anywhere near the best talent either.  The scouts watched one game this morning.  This blows.

I've drank their BS kool-aid too much.. I'm done with them for awhile.. Go Yanks Mets.

Sorry kiddo, never ever root for the Yanks!

I hate Dolan. he has ruined this franchise. Its impossible to get attached to any players and for little kids to have heroes because they are gone within a couple years. He surrendered next year as well. I hope there is NOONE in the seats. Also, the fact that we cant fill a stadium hurts the surrounding businesses as well from a summer long party. What a selfish, cheap son-of-a b!tch

 

Don't hate the player... hate the game.  Honestly I'm not a dolan apologist, but this is what happens to most teams in baseball unless you have big market revenue streams.  Unless things go perfectly you can't compete.  If you don't compete, people don't come, if people don't come, you lop payroll and start over.  MLB is a joke.

Both Martinez and Lee have publically said they want to stay in Cleveland...but business is business.

 

So we've lost Garko, Francisco, Lee...and we're waiting to hear on Martinez.  Anyone else??

So we've lost Garko, Francisco, Lee...and we're waiting to hear on Martinez.  Anyone else??

 

A lot of fans as well. Anybody who continues paying there hard earned money to go watch a game is a fool. Any other sport and real fans would publically boycott this team and let it be known why. 

The issue I have is that the model that Indians went by wasn't supposed to be playoffs every year, but it was supposed to be sustainable.  Granted, the Hafner and Westbrook signings have hurt, but that's not the sole reason.  Under the plan, you keep a core group of guys, and when you have to trade one because his contract is gonna be too much to resign or you lose him as a free agent, you have a deep minor league system to refill from.

 

In reality, they have blown the whole thing up and not followed their system, less than 2 years from being a game from the World Series.  Also, these recent trades have shown that we have little pitching depth in the minors.  Good thing we held onto Adam Miller instead of trading for Teixera in 2007..

the problem with the indians plan... is that they haven't drafted and developed a pitcher worth a sh*t since CC Sabathia.  I know the draft is a crapshoot but if you miss for 8 stright years... it will catch up with you.

The issue I have is that the model that Indians went by wasn't supposed to be playoffs every year, but it was supposed to be sustainable.  Granted, the Hafner and Westbrook signings have hurt, but that's not the sole reason.  Under the plan, you keep a core group of guys, and when you have to trade one because his contract is gonna be too much to resign or you lose him as a free agent, you have a deep minor league system to refill from.

 

In reality, they have blown the whole thing up and not followed their system, less than 2 years from being a game from the World Series.  Also, these recent trades have shown that we have little pitching depth in the minors.  Good thing we held onto Adam Miller instead of trading for Teixera in 2007..

the problem with the indians plan... is that they haven't drafted and developed a pitcher worth a sh*t since CC Sabathia.  I know the draft is a crapshoot but if you miss for 8 stright years... it will catch up with you.

 

Agreed.  I touched on some of those points earlier.

I dislike the title, but it does bring up a good point:

 

 

Only In Cleveland

by Dennis Manoloff, Plain Dealer Reporter

Wednesday July 29, 2009, 3:44 PM

 

CLEVELAND -- Wednesday produced yet another installment of OIC sports moments.

 

Only In Cleveland.

 

Only In Cleveland does the major-league baseball team trade reigning Cy Young Award winners in back-to-back seasons.

 

Think about how hard that is to do.

 

More at cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/dman/index.ssf/2009/07/only_in_cleveland.html

I hate Dolan.  he has ruined this franchise.  Its impossible to get attached to any players and for little kids to have heroes because they are gone within a couple years.  He surrendered next year as well.  I hope there is NOONE in the seats.  Also, the fact that we cant fill a stadium hurts the surrounding businesses as well from a summer long party.  What a selfish, cheap son-of-a b!tch

 

Don't hate the player... hate the game.  Honestly I'm not a dolan apologist, but this is what happens to most teams in baseball unless you have big market revenue streams.  Unless things go perfectly you can't compete.  If you don't compete, people don't come, if people don't come, you lop payroll and start over.  MLB is a joke.

 

I hate the player.  If Dan Gilbert were owning the indians...do you think he would stare at all those empty seats? No.  He is a good business man and owner.  Anyone who is out only to stay in the black instead of winning and having the support of an entire region shouldnt do this venture.  Sure, guys like Gilbert want to make money, thats why you do it...but if you SUCK at doing it, then you should give it up.  Jacobs was in the same boat and made it work.  Dolan has turn our stadium into the yellow pages with walgreens wrapped around the foul poles for cash.  Thats desperate.  I hate everything about him.  And yes, MTS, ive already sent my emails to the indians.

I hate Dolan.  he has ruined this franchise.  Its impossible to get attached to any players and for little kids to have heroes because they are gone within a couple years.  He surrendered next year as well.  I hope there is NOONE in the seats.  Also, the fact that we cant fill a stadium hurts the surrounding businesses as well from a summer long party.  What a selfish, cheap son-of-a b!tch

 

Don't hate the player... hate the game.  Honestly I'm not a dolan apologist, but this is what happens to most teams in baseball unless you have big market revenue streams.  Unless things go perfectly you can't compete.  If you don't compete, people don't come, if people don't come, you lop payroll and start over.  MLB is a joke.

 

I hate the player.  If Dan Gilbert were owning the indians...do you think he would stare at all those empty seats? No.  He is a good business man and owner.  Anyone who is out only to stay in the black instead of winning and having the support of an entire region shouldnt do this venture.  Sure, guys like Gilbert want to make money, thats why you do it...but if you SUCK at doing it, then you should give it up.  Jacobs was in the same boat and made it work.  Dolan has turn our stadium into the yellow pages with walgreens wrapped around the foul poles for cash.  Thats desperate.  I hate everything about him.  And yes, MTS, ive already sent my emails to the indians.

LMAO

The issue at hand is that Dolan didn't want to drop the $8 mil on Lee's extension next year, plain and simple, he's strapped right now.

 

However, in his defense, don't act like you would see the team the second financial hardship hit BelievelandD1, because that's complete BS.  Any owner has not only a financial interest, but also an emotional.. look at any team who goes into bankruptcy with an owner who was a business titan (ie the Phoenix Coyotes).

The issue at hand is that Dolan didn't want to drop the $8 mil on Lee's extension next year, plain and simple, he's strapped right now.

 

However, in his defense, don't act like you would see the team the second financial hardship hit BelievelandD1, because that's complete BS.  Any owner has not only a financial interest, but also an emotional.. look at any team who goes into bankruptcy with an owner who was a business titan (ie the Phoenix Coyotes).

 

some owners care but their businesses are still crap.  Hello My name is Mark Cuban.

Exactly.  I wouldnt dare buy a professional sports team unless i was determined to win.  If i was going to be cheap and suck at it.  I would invest my money somewhere else.  We as citizens who grew up watching every pitch and provide revenue for him, deserve better.  If i had an entire city telling me to sell the team, I would sell the team.  Hes not getting another dime from me.  I will listen to Tom Hamilton because he is one of us and is good at his job, thats about it though.

Furthermore KStay, I know through my studies and any shmuck should know that you spend money to make money.  Lets take Gilbert for instance.  He did not make money on the cavs this year, as his expenses exceeded his revenues, but he has a championship caliber team and a ton of money coming his way for years to come (hopefully) and will be sitting pretty.  If i were in Dolans position i would scrap all of the crap.  The hot dogs, bobbleheads, fireworks which probably add up big time would all be gone and I would put a winning product on the field.  If that wasnt my goal, then i would be terrible at what i do.

^I don't agree with many of the decisions Dolan makes, but I'm still going to support the team.  I think this Cliff Lee trade is the worst trade in recent memory, but I'll still go to a few more games this year.  I'd hate to see this franchise enter an uncontrollable downward spiral of lower attendance - lower payroll - worse record - lower attendance - lower payroll - worse record - etc...  We were set up to have a solid team for several years after the '07 season, but it just didn't work out for a number of reasons and I think management thinks it's time to re-tool.  We'll see if they made the right moves in a few years.  Until then, continue to support your team.  Now's not the time to be a typical Cleveland fan, always writhing in self pity.  Forget about the trade BS, go to the park, drink a beer, and enjoy a game.

 

 

Furthermore KStay, I know through my studies and any shmuck should know that you spend money to make money. Lets take Gilbert for instance. He did not make money on the cavs this year, as his expenses exceeded his revenues, but he has a championship caliber team and a ton of money coming his way for years to come (hopefully) and will be sitting pretty. If i were in Dolans position i would scrap all of the crap. The hot dogs, bobbleheads, fireworks which probably add up big time would all be gone and I would put a winning product on the field. If that wasnt my goal, then i would be terrible at what i do.

 

I think Dolan is strapped for cash and hasn't handled things well.  However, I don't think we can just say Gilbert would be amazing at owning the Indians.  He was given Lebron.  He would have had to try hard to keep people from coming to games.  I do think that Dolan tried and failed.  He made some poor decisions, but some of it was beyond his control (like giving Westbrook and Hafner big contracts and then they both get hurt/suck right afterwards).  Keep in mind we were very close to going to the world series two years ago before all this happened.  I also thing Wedge is to blame for part of our downfall, as he makes some (IMO) very poor coaching decisions and doesn't seem to have the team prepared coming out of Spring Training.

ESPN sure doesn't think the Tribe got hosed.  We get Philly's #2, #3 and #4 prospect and a kid with a live arm they compare to Papelbon.  Sure, they won't win for a year or two, but we already knew that.  Who here honestly thought they'd compete for the AL Pennant next year?  Right, not many.

 

The Indians have done extensive studies of deals like this and found that teams which concentrate on "big league-ready" prospects as the centerpieces of these trades often make out the worst. Cleveland aims for upside -- and it ranked 18-year-old smokeballer Jason Knapp as having the highest ceiling of any arm in the Phillies' system, including Drabek's.

 

One scout we surveyed Wednesday compared Knapp to a young Jonathan Papelbon. Another said: "If his medicals check out, they may have gotten a young Roy Halladay."

 

Meanwhile, Baseball America ranked the other three players in the deal -- right-hander Carlos Carrasco, catcher Lou Marson and shortstop Jason Donald -- as the Nos. 2, 3 and 4 best prospects in the Phillies' system entering the season.

 

-Jayson Stark, ESPN

 

 

Hootenany- I agree.  When i take a step back its still baseball Americas pasttime and its fun to be at a game.  I may just start watching the aeros.  These people all get paid alot of money to be this poor. 

 

Baseballman-Gilbert wasnt given Lebron, he went out and bought the team knowing a prodigy was here...being a good business man.  He has spent SO much cash on making his prodigy feel comfortable. Thats what a good business man does.  The first sign of weakness he doesnt dump the people who make him money.  He has been in the red for a while, but has made it clear he will spend until he wins.  Im not saying Gilbert should be owner of the indians...im saying someone who cares about our town and team and winning should be making the calls.  This guy cares about one thing, his wallet.  If you wwant to be conservative, go do a different venture...there are too many peoples interest on the line here.  He has ruined all but 2 summers for indians fans since 2000.  When the tribe are hot...its a freaking party all summer.

When the tribe are hot...its a freaking party all summer.

 

(nods in agreement)

 

That is the great thing about baseball. It is an almost everyday sport, there is something to get excited about everyday. Unlike football or even the NBA (especially the NBA playoffs, soooo much waiting) Even on the Tribes off days if the ChiSox or Twins lose and the Tribe gain a half a game in the standings. It is something to get excited about.

 

Of course the flip side of that is this year..

While I'm not a big Dolan fan... it's still very much the system more so than the owner.  You can't compare Gilbert and the NBA even as much as I love him.  One sport has a salary cap.  One sport has a rookie slotting of draft picks that mandates what they get paid, to generally short term contracts.  One sport is set up to allow teams to keep their current players if they so choose because they are able to pay their own players more money than all other teams.  One sport has revenue sharing.  The other sport has no salary cap.  The other sports draft is so f'd up that often some of the best players in the draft fall to the mid first round because the worst teams are afraid to draft someone that they know they can't afford to sign.  The other sports best players always go to the highest bidder when they are free agents.  ALWAYS.  And it is NEVER a mid or small market team that signs those players.  Small and mid market teams have to sign good players... and overpay for them at that.  The other sport says it has revenue sharing... but it doesn't.  I think they just throw that term out there to see how dumb they think fans are.  They pool some money together and the small and mid market team get a couple mil each.  The Yankees meanwhile recieve more from the YES network in revenue, then the payroll of all but seven teams.  Think about this.  The Yankees recieve over 100 million dollars from the cable network alone.  That doesn't include ticket revenue, stadium advertising revenue, ticket sales revenue (at seat prices ridiculously higher than what small and mid market teams could EVER dare try to charge).  This game is so stacked it's not even worth playing.  Dan Gilbert broke even last year.  One of the highest payrolls in the league and he still broke even without even going to the NBA finals.  Larry / Paul Dolan spent 82 million dollars in payroll this year, hardly "cheap" (14 out of 32 teams) and from what I hear are going to lose THIRTY million dollars this year.  I don't think anyone in business is interested in losing 30 million dollars.  But that's what happens in the ridiculous MLB if you are a small mid market team and the team tanks.  Take a look at the payrolls from this year.  And outside of Detroit look at the market sizes of every one of those teams above the Indians.  Furthermore, you can pretty much take the top 10 or so teams from those large markets and pencil in 6 of them for the playoffs every single year.  That's what having those sort of budgets does in the MLB.  The sport has become ridiculous.

 

New York Yankees $201,449,189

New York Mets $149,373,987

Chicago Cubs $134,809,000

Boston Red Sox $121,745,999

Detroit Tigers $115,085,145

Los Angeles Angels $113,709,00

Philadelphia Phillies $113,004,046

Houston Astros $102,996,414

Los Angeles Dodgers $100,414,592

Seattle Mariners $98,904,166

Atlanta Braves $96,726,166

Chicago White Sox $96,068,500

San Francisco Giants $82,616,450

Cleveland Indians $81,579,166

Toronto Blue Jays $80,538,300

Milwaukee Brewers $80,182,502

St. Louis Cardinals $77,605,109

Colorado Rockies $75,201,000 

Cincinnati Reds $73,558,500

Arizona Diamondbacks $73,516,666

Kansas City Royals $70,519,333

Texas Rangers $68,178,798

Baltimore Orioles $67,101,666

Minnesota Twins $65,299,266

Tampa Bay Rays $63,313,034

Oakland Athletics $62,310,000

Washington Nationals $60,328,000

Pittsburgh Pirates $48,693,000

San Diego Padres $43,734,200

Florida Marlins $36,834,000

 

 

Furthermore, it's spriraled out of control so fast it's dumbfounding.  My family had season tickets forever, so when the jake opened we got preferential seating.  We chose seats right behind the plate 10 rows up.  Cost of those tickets... $16 a piece.  15 years later cost of those tickets (which we no longer have) $75.  How many people do you know whose salaries have over quadruppled in the past 15 years?  Until baseball reinvents itself in a sustainable form, what you saw yesterday is what will happen in Cleveland AND over HALF of the teams in MLB.  And sure, sell off for prospects, get a little bit of luck, and a couple times in every seven year cycle (time cycle before players are eligible for free agency) you can compete.  But everything needs to work perfect.  When it doesn't work perfect, or more to the point, when it bombs, owners lose money hand over fist and sell.  Dick Jacobs saw this coming.  It's why he sold.  By the way Dolan has paid for the THREE highest payrolls in team history.  And I'm much more inclined to point the finger at Shapiro than Dolan.  My biggest problem with Dolan is his refusal to get involved (demand wedge go), and perhaps move on from Shapiro.  I'm tired of missing on ALL of our mid teir FA's (delluci, michaels, etc.).  And I'm just flabbergasted that we have moved 2 cy young award winners in back to back years and still don't have a single major league player to show for it.  That's unbelievable... and unacceptable.  Not to mention an attrocious draft record since taking over 7-8 years ago.  Time to turn the front office upside down.

 

  By the way... I was in favor of trading lee, and victor.  We weren't going to compete next year.  We had lee and martinez this year and were one of the worst teams in baseball.  2 years ago we had Lee AND CC, along with victor and were one of the worst teams in baseball.  And with both of those guys on the payroll sitting at 80m and losing tons of cash, we weren't going to be able to add a single piece worth a crap this offseason.  I'm just still in disbelief that our GM traded a cy young award winner with TWO future playoff runs for whoever gets him AND a 4th outfielder, for a catcher with no power when we have like 4 catchers in the upper system, a shortstop who looks like nothing more than organizational depth (or at best a utility MIDDLE infielder), a AAA pitcher who while young, track record shows he's probably a back of the rotation starter.... and an 18 year old kid, who even if everything went perfectly right and he's the best pitcher of all time, we still won't see until 2013 at the earliest.

 

Excuse me while i go throw up.

Furthermore KStay, I know through my studies and any shmuck should know that you spend money to make money. Lets take Gilbert for instance. He did not make money on the cavs this year, as his expenses exceeded his revenues, but he has a championship caliber team and a ton of money coming his way for years to come (hopefully) and will be sitting pretty. If i were in Dolans position i would scrap all of the crap. The hot dogs, bobbleheads, fireworks which probably add up big time would all be gone and I would put a winning product on the field. If that wasnt my goal, then i would be terrible at what i do.

 

All that crap draws people into the seats though.  Look at minor league baseball.  Because the product on the field sure isn't gonna draw people.

MiLB is also outrageously cheap.  Average cost for a family of 4 at an Indians game for tickets, parking, and 4 dogs is up to $160 (Red Sox lead at $287).  Average cost for a family of 4 at the average minor league game including parking and 4 dogs is $54.

At any given level, the teams are competitive.  I would suggest the average fan couldn't even tell the small differences between players or levels.  I've gone to numerous minor league parks and games, and have always enjoyed the quality of play.  Sure, you get the occasional pitcher or hitter who is so much ahead of the competition and can throw a curve which will have the hitter in the dirt, but will be a called strike!  I think the biggest difference is the players moving in and out so quickly that the fans cannot "bond" with them and have no loyalty to them.

 

Went to a Chattanooga Lookouts game last month and sat behind the plate for $7, and the beer was $3!!

 

 

My friend's posted a facebook status rant on the Indians. Another friend said when did we become the Cleveland Pirates? His Response was:

 

"I actually prefer going to Pirates games, what does that tell you? Yuengling beer and all the free Heinz condiments you want...plus I don't care who wins the game!"

Yes.  Its all about money. But guess what will make an owner money more than anything?  WINNING!  INstead of being one game away from the world series in 2007 and then going out to sign Kobayashi....improve your team so winning can be sustained.  Sure MLB is majorly flawed, but this town loves hard work and winners and we would be filling that place up if we were winning. 

 

I understand Lee leaving...but they could have waited until next year.  believe it or not, they DO have the talent to compete if they could just get a bullpen.  They shouldnt have told all fans we arent trying next year either.  Vic is my favorite and has been a great player for this city.  He needs to stay.  DOlan needs to pony up and pay the 7 mill.  You want to dump money?? Trade Kerry Wood.

But the bottom line is our owner HAS spent enough to make us competetive.  And you're right, winning puts butts in the seats.  Your anger shouldn't be directed at Dolan, who has continuously spent more money each of the last 7 years... it should be directed at the individual running the team.  You know the one with the abysmal drafting record.  The one with a horrid track record of free agent signings.  Actually about the only thing our baseball operations side seems to do well is evaluate other teams talent, which we constantly need to do since we seem incapable of producing our own.  St. Louis and Milwaukee spend less then us and have a significantly more competetive team year in and year out... why?  Because they develop talent.  We don't (haven't).  That's not the owners fault (except for as I said before, not getting involved enough and forcing wedge out earlier this year when it could have made a difference).

 

And I still believe we had no chance of competeing next year.  We need a hell of a lot more than a new bullpen, our rotation is a mess with or without lee.  There is no guarantee westbrook with his arm AND hip will be a difference maker, Carmona looks more and more like a one year wonder by the day... and take your pick between Laffey, Huff, and Sowers... They look to me like the same pitcher.  Soft tossing, control pitching lefties, best suited as a 5th starter.  We're a mess.  And frankly I'm tired of our "offense" too.  We've had the same offense for 6 years.  Filled with streak hitters *cough*peralta*cough* from top to bottom, near the top of the league in runs scored... but how many times is it 14 runs one game, followed by 0,1,0, and 3 the next four.  Inconsistent and murderous on a pitching staff.  2007 by the way, I've come to realize, was a mirage.  Too many guys had career years, guys that haven't shown an incling of performing like that since the season ended.  Perez, Batencourt, Byrd, Borowski, Jensen Lewis, Garko... fools gold.

 

And as much as I love victor... and i do.  I've been following this team since I can ever remember and he's one of my absolute favorites.  He has no place on this team after next year at the latest.  We have to think with our heads and not our hearts on this one.  A streak hitter caught inbetween catcher, 1B, and DH.  And he really only provides value with the bat when he's a catcher.  If we can get an arm for him, he has to go.  It's time to start over.  Build around LaPorta, Valbuena, Cabrera, Sizemore, Brantley, & Choo.  Everything else is up for grabs.

But the bottom line is our owner HAS spent enough to make us competetive.  And you're right, winning puts butts in the seats.  Your anger shouldn't be directed at Dolan, who has continuously spent more money each of the last 7 years... it should be directed at the individual running the team.  You know the one with the abysmal drafting record.  The one with a horrid track record of free agent signings.  Actually about the only thing our baseball operations side seems to do well is evaluate other teams talent, which we constantly need to do since we seem incapable of producing our own.  St. Louis and Milwaukee spend less then us and have a significantly more competetive team year in and year out... why?  Because they develop talent.  We don't (haven't).  That's not the owners fault (except for as I said before, not getting involved enough and forcing wedge out earlier this year when it could have made a difference).

 

And I still believe we had no chance of competeing next year.  We need a hell of a lot more than a new bullpen, our rotation is a mess with or without lee.  There is no guarantee westbrook with his arm AND hip will be a difference maker, Carmona looks more and more like a one year wonder by the day... and take your pick between Laffey, Huff, and Sowers... They look to me like the same pitcher.  Soft tossing, control pitching lefties, best suited as a 5th starter.  We're a mess.  And frankly I'm tired of our "offense" too.  We've had the same offense for 6 years.  Filled with streak hitters *cough*peralta*cough* from top to bottom, near the top of the league in runs scored... but how many times is it 14 runs one game, followed by 0,1,0, and 3 the next four.  Inconsistent and murderous on a pitching staff.  2007 by the way, I've come to realize, was a mirage.  Too many guys had career years, guys that haven't shown an incling of performing like that since the season ended.  Perez, Batencourt, Byrd, Borowski, Jensen Lewis, Garko... fools gold.

 

And as much as I love victor... and i do.  I've been following this team since I can ever remember and he's one of my absolute favorites.  He has no place on this team after next year at the latest.  We have to think with our heads and not our hearts on this one.  A streak hitter caught inbetween catcher, 1B, and DH.  And he really only provides value with the bat when he's a catcher.  If we can get an arm for him, he has to go.  It's time to start over.  Build around LaPorta, Valbuena, Cabrera, Sizemore, Brantley, & Choo.  Everything else is up for grabs.

100% agree

You want to dump money?? Trade Kerry Wood.

 

They would if they could, nobody wants him at his salary.

I think my anger is a combination of Dolan, Shapiro and Wedge.  But Wedge is defeinitely the least.  Garko just said in Jim Rome today that the heart of the team was ripped out when Sabathia was traded last year. Well Shapiro had no choice but to trade him.  If we had a more aggressive owner, we could have offered him up money.  You can stick up for Dolan all you want, but the fact is, and im sure about 90% of the city will agree with me...he is an awful owner and the indians are better off in someone elses hands.

Wedge is not great, but this thing isnt his fault.  When you are not given a bullpen that can get outs...there is NO POSSIBLE way to be a good manager.  Thats not his fault.  And yes, the tribe had about 10-15 games won that the pen pissed away.  Not to mention Wedge still has these guys gutting it out every night...nobody has quit yet.

So how is it he spends more than every other owner in our market size?  How can you not recognize how the deck is stacked against these markets?  Prime example... Milwaukee.  Raises talent.  They went for the brass ring last year.  But they had no intent on resigning sabathia or sheets.  They knew they didn't have a chance.  But they replaced talent with talent from within have a payroll smaller than ours and are competing.

 

There isn't an owner in the game who could afford to have a 100+m payroll in our market.  It would be throwing money in the fireplace.  Further he actually paid to retain talent (westbrook, hafner)... but of course you can question the rational of spending that money on those particular players... which again, is the fault of the baseball management side of the operation.

I see what you are saying.  However, Milwaukee didnt let Prince go...you want to keep the fans happy you need to keep  your stars.  Cliff Lee would make 9 million next year.  Thats petty.  I agree Shapiro screwed this up by allocating our money in directions it shouldnt have been.  I agree with trading Francisco, Garko, DeRosa... I think they got rid of the wrong guy.  Peralta should have been shipped a while ago...what this organizations fascination with him, is beyond me.  Heck, Hafner could get traded and I wouldnt care.  Your leaders of this team are (were) Vic, Cliff and Grady.  You can build a young team around them with talent and still have a low payroll.  Imagine if they trimmed all of the fat except Lee and Martinez and Grady.  The rest of your lineup probably includes Laporta, Choo, Asdrubal, Valbuena, Marte, Gimenez. For a starting lineup that is really cheap.  All im saying is, they could have at least tried for next year and still cut payroll.  They dont even want to try for next year. 

 

Also, somewhere out there...there is someone who would spend in a mid market.  (Detroit)

Prince didn't get traded because he hasn't been a FA yet.  And when he is, he will leave to a big market team for more money.  Guaranteed.  That's what happens to small and mid market teams.  Same thing for Braun.  There is no escaping it.  All Fielder did was sign an extension the same way CC and Grady (and countless Indians before) did.  They sacrafice a couple years of FA for a guaranteed deal.  But when those guys hit FA... they will go.  However the Brewers will probably have some people to replace them.

 

 

Edit:  Also, you named the one team ahead of the indians in payroll... But detroit isn't so much a mid market as much as a depressed market.

Prince made them pay 8 mill though, when they wanted to pay 6.  To keep him around they ponied up.  That at least gets keeps him around a few more years.  Im just arguing that point because we would have paid Lee equivalent money next year.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  All i know is Cincy pays two of their crap starters a ton of money.  It just doesnt make sense for me