Unfortunately, we could make every city in Ohio the urbanists multi-modal dream, but without an engine of serious growth things will stay the same or continue to decline relative to the rest of the country.

 

If we made every city in Ohio the 'urbanist dream' that would be an economic engine in and of its self.

I saw this mentioned previously so it might need to be merged.  Clermont County is getting some big wins with 1000 new jobs here, and TQL growing rapidly:

 

Tata to open headquarters in Clermont CountyBusiness Courier of Cincinnati

 

Indian information technology firm Tata Consultancy Services has committed to opening its North American headquarters in Greater Cincinnati, the company said Friday.

 

News reports say the company will occupy more than 150,000 square feet at Miami Township's Park 50 Technecenter in Clermont County, but the company has not confirmed the location of the facility.

 

Clermont County officials said they would issue a statement this afternoon about the news. Tata could become one of the county's largest employers.

 

Read More...

Looks like a great project with high tech jobs.

I really wish I could agree. Unfortunately, I think there are systemic issues that are much harder to overcome than building a good mass transit system with higher density development.

 

Cincy is lucky that it came through the peak era of deindustrialization and abandonment of the midwest with our consumer products focus still around (Kroger, P&G, Macy's), unfortunately they used to have more than just offices and stores here. All three at one time either had substantial manufacturing or their suppliers had a substantial footprint. Mostly gone.

 

No amount of urbanism will bring that level of dynamism back. The benefit of manufacturing wasn't just the floor jobs, it was the middle class jobs too, the accountants, salesmen, managers, et al.

Unfortunately, this along with the likely relocation of the NIOSH labs will exacerbate the eastern sprawl. Not that the region couldn't use the jobs.

They're going to sprawl somewhere, so it might as well be here.

 

Unfortunately, this along with the likely relocation of the NIOSH labs will exacerbate the eastern sprawl. Not that the region couldn't use the jobs.

Kroger & P&G have more local employees today than years past, the exception is maby Macy's. And I'm not sure if you know what P&G is all about but they have alot more than just offices in Southwestern Ohio.

 

I really wish I could agree. Unfortunately, I think there are systemic issues that are much harder to overcome than building a good mass transit system with higher density development.

 

Cincy is lucky that it came through the peak era of deindustrialization and abandonment of the midwest with our consumer products focus still around (Kroger, P&G, Macy's), unfortunately they used to have more than just offices and stores here. All three at one time either had substantial manufacturing or their suppliers had a substantial footprint. Mostly gone.

 

No amount of urbanism will bring that level of dynamism back. The benefit of manufacturing wasn't just the floor jobs, it was the middle class jobs too, the accountants, salesmen, managers, et al.

...and the spot taken by Tata was the number 1 ranked spot for NIOSH.  The number 2 is in the city so this could boost the chances of staying within city limits. 

From my understanding these are all jobs that are currently located within the region.  There is really no gain here...just Clermont County continuing to poach businesses/jobs from other areas.

Compared to their footprints at mid-century, nearly all of them have a greater office to manufacturing ratio than they once did. I'm aware of the R/D that goes on around here along with a decent amount of logistics. Unfortunately, they have basically been doing the same thing for the last hundred years and will continue to do it for another hundred. These companies are the core of the local economy. They simply aren't going to drive new growth. Oh they may help exacerbate sprawl by putting the new R/D center in Mason.

 

Cincinnati's economy has been stagnant with these guys around for the better part of the last four decades (with ups and downs of course). Each of them help with the development of new businesses but as the figures show it isn't enough to get us out of the bottom of the barrel.

^ No, the Tata jobs will consist of 300 that already exist in the US.  Cincinnati has a very small operation already so some of those 300 are local, but the other 700 are all new to the US and Cincinnati.

So, what about new jobs created by P&G (Boston/Gillette), Macy's (St. Louis/May Co.), and the countless people that I have met while living in the Shillito that have transplanted (Scotland, UK, etc.) from overseas whether it be Kroger, Fidelity, etc ...

 

 

 

... and I am just one person. My experiences represent a very small percentage and I don't believe that I just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

I would ask how you define stagnant.  We certainly have not been a boom economy over the past 40 years, but I think we are pretty consistently growing.  I think it is 1-2 percent a year, but I would have to check.  We might be losing ground to the West and Southeast, but if you look at markets above and/or to the right of us geographically it is not bad.  I always hope that someone locally will come up with the next hip, explosive company, but I would not consider the overall economy as stagnant.

 

One other thing to consider, we have been driving down the percentage of manufacturing jobs in the local economy for a few years now, which has been the consistent drag causing the slow growth.  The other job sectors have created more than enough jobs to cover those losses and create an overall gain.  The faster we get rid of the old economy jobs like Ford etc., the sooner the new jobs will create faster growth.  I would hope we always would have some manufacturing jobs, but I am happy that we are down to about 120,000 jobs overall.  Soon they will only be about 10% of the total.  I agree that we should have some mechanisms in place that deter sprawl though.

First of all, I'm going on the data just released that put Cincinnati in the lowest quartile of job creating cities in the country. I'll be the first one to admit that growth is often not all that it is cracked up to be. However, despite the fact that Cincinnati never really internalized the rust belt mentality in a way that Northern Ohio, Michigan, and Western New York have, there remains plenty of rust belt in the region's economy. The real drivers of growth are rarely the fortune 500 companies, more often it is the middle sized company (150 - 500 employees) that serve as a foundation for a vibrant regional economy. The region continues to be plagued with minimal population growth, high poverty rates, somewhat higher unemployment rates.

It is great that there are folks filling up downtown from throughout the world, but I'm more interested in good jobs for the graduates of Cincinnati Public Schools, UC, XU, NKU, and Cincinnati State.

You know Cincinnati has a good unemplyment rate. The chances are better you'll get skilled workers instead of bottom of the barrel or unskilled workers if the unemployment was very low.

I was going to get into some more, including that, but I don't have time to explain econimics to someone who got an instant education reading an article somewhere.

 

So, what about new jobs created by P&G (Boston/Gillette), Macy's (St. Louis/May Co.), and the countless people that I have met while living in the Shillito that have transplanted (Scotland, UK, etc.) from overseas whether it be Kroger, Fidelity, etc ...

 

 

 

... and I am just one person. My experiences represent a very small percentage and I don't believe that I just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

I am aware of the concept of the natural rate of unemployment, however, Cincinnati doesn't measure up that well in some of the measures of unemployment that takes into account the number of people who have dropped out of the economy as measured by the unemployment rate. The article merely provided a piece of data which says that all is not well in Cincinnati's economy. The extrapolations are my own. While the brain-drain notion has receded somewhat compared to its early 00s heyday, it hasn't gone away.

I was going off the comment "over the last 4 decades".  I think in the long term you will see that the area has been consistent.  The last year was not great, but the reason is because of the manufacturing sector - I think it has declined since 1999.  The other companies are indeed producing growth, and this is not just Fortune 500.  On the flip side the losses in manufacturing are not just Fortune 500 either (e.g. Cincinnati Gear in Fairfax).  My point is that the manufacturing sector is becoming a smaller percentage of the overall economy, and as that continues to happen the overall growth will improve because this is the only sector declining in jobs.  There was a report by the Ohio Dept of Job and Family Services last year that had the projections on job growth through 2014 and those numbers are pretty interesting. 

 

Slow population growth is indeed an issue as most economists agree that companies would expand even more quickly if we had more in-migration.  There is a good sign in that the net domestic migration was down to -1280 last year from a peak of -4794 in 2001 (we were on the plus side until 2000).  This is more than offset by positive international migration, and natural growth adds more.  Hopefully we can get back on the plus side in this category, but I would like to see a comprehensive program that actually sells the city.  This can be tricky because I think the biggest reason people move is still for a job, but it could not hurt.  It is interesting that not every metro with above average growth has a positive domestic migration, they are just getting a lot of international migration and people are having a lot of babies. 

The unemployment rate also doesn't take into consideration the people who opt to file instead of getting another job when they don't really need unemployment but are entitled to such benefits. I have said it before but let me reiterate, numbers can be manipulated...

 

Who would say all is well in any american cities economy??

 

And brain drain is exactly that, a "notion".  To completely stop brain drain in america, nobody would be able to move from where they were from. But since they do move, there is always somebody to take their place. I heard that issue when I lived in north carolina, virginia, west virginia & every other place I've lived. I guess the brightest & most talented people from america have moved out of the country. Now you can ponder the question, Why am I still living in america??

Cincinnati's economy actually did pretty well in the 70s and 80s, but the early 90s recession probably hit this area as hard as any since maybe the late 50s (when many of the consumer goods and apparel factories moved south and some of the leftover war-time stuff closed or drastically cut workers as tech allowed more efficiency). In the 90s, the region was aiming for Charlotte and Atlanta, I haven't heard that kind of chatter since the riots at least.

 

My sense is that Cincy still has issues with keeping its locally produced talent. Success is still seen as a move to Chicago or the Coasts. Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

 

 

Can you post a link? What evidence are you basing this statement on?

However, despite the fact that Cincinnati never really internalized the rust belt mentality in a way that Northern Ohio, Michigan, and Western New York have, there remains plenty of rust belt in the region's economy. The real drivers of growth are rarely the fortune 500 companies, more often it is the middle sized company (150 - 500 employees) that serve as a foundation for a vibrant regional economy. The region continues to be plagued with minimal population growth, high poverty rates, somewhat higher unemployment rates.

It is great that there are folks filling up downtown from throughout the world, but I'm more interested in good jobs for the graduates of Cincinnati Public Schools, UC, XU, NKU, and Cincinnati State.

 

1. How is Cincinnati THAT much different from other midwestern cities that were a victim of creative destruction in our shifting economy? It sounds like you're trying to single out Cincinnati when in fact other cities in this region have dealt with many of the same issues such as losing their industrial base and seeing minimal growth.

 

2. I think the problem with our best academic programs is that they lead people to other cities (as most intellectual and creative people like to get out and explore the world. Not to mention recruiters often offer jobs before graduation at firms in other cities. In fact, I would argue that aside from the size of the school and how much they do research, universities are pretty much irrelevant as we have a profuse amount of them scattered all throughout Ohio. I doubt I'll end up in Cincinnati after graduating but I'll always feel like I have a vested interest here. BTW, Cincinnati public schools are $%#$ed but the same can be said for almost every other major city in Ohio. I don't think anyone is moving to the inner city of Cleveland, Columbus or Dayton for the quality public schools.

 

 

"My sense is that Cincy still has issues with keeping its locally produced talent." If an employer sees proven talent they're going to snatch you up. At the same time, perhaps Cincinnati-based companies are doing the same thing with people in other cities. It's quid pro quo.

dmerkow/ragerunner ... sums it pretty much up.

 

1. How is Cincinnati THAT much different from other midwestern cities that were a victim of creative destruction in our shifting economy? It sounds like you're trying to single out Cincinnati when in fact other cities in this region have dealt with many of the same issues such as losing their industrial base and seeing minimal growth.

 

2. I doubt I'll end up in Cincinnati after graduating but I'll always feel like I have a vested interest here. BTW, Cincinnati public schools are $%#$ed but the same can be said for almost every other major city in Ohio. I don't think anyone is moving to the inner city of Cleveland, Columbus or Dayton for the quality public schools.

 

Though uninvited, I'll respond to these points:

1) If by "single out Cincinnati" you mean discuss its economy, then of course dmerkow is singling out Cincinnati.  That's the topic of this thread.  But it's pretty obvious that he's said he thinks Cincinnati is in a better economic position than nearly every other Midwestern city, and that it does not, like those other cities, have a "rust-belt, the best days are behind us" mentality.

 

2) I am curious about how you feeling like you'll have a vested interest in Cincinnati will make any difference to the city's economy.  I feel a strong vested interest in the success or failure of the city's sports teams, but obviously my ability to effect that outcome, even to the extent of buying season tickets, is essentially nil.  How will this feeling of yours manifest itself to the city's economic benefit?  Also, I know of a few people people who have left the suburbs for the city or at least paid the extra cash it takes in order to send their children to Walnut Hills High School, a Cincinnati Public School.  While this evidence is merely anecdotal, it does happen.

 

To Merkowitz I'll ask, what sort of economically dynamic industries do you believe can arise in Cincinnati given it's current state?  I've heard Columbus, Ohio has a large insurance industry there, Dallas has the largest back office financial industry west of the Mississippi (if not west of New Jersey) and for some odd reason Charlotte has the headquarters of quite a few large banks.  But once again these are the type of Fortune 500 companies that you said don't really bring dynamism to a region.  I'm skeptical that anyone can self-consciously bring economic dynamism to a locality; historically speaking boomtowns such as New York, Chicago, San Francisco, L.A. and Houston boomed and continue to boom largely as a result of geography.  I view the current boom of the West Coast and Sun Belt to be a direct result of two factors- 1) their easy access to the majority of new immigrants (not unlike the Midwest in the 19th century) and 2) the furious economic growth of Asia since the 70s.  Both of these factors imply a logic of geography.  I don't think it's a coincidence that New York improved during the 90s when immigration to the U.S. began to pick up.  Anyway, what do you think the City, Region and State can do to encourage and incubate the small businesses you argue are the seedbeds of economic dynamism and growth?

^ As to point one, exactly . . . I think the glass is filled to the half-way point and depending on the winds it is either half-full or empty, though usually full. I was in Western NY this summer and on the local news they regularly (like 3 times over a couple week period) shot pictures of closed factories and interviewed the workers who lost their jobs or in one case they followed up on a factory that had closed ten years earlier. Cincy just doesn't have that. I actually that Cincy's more southern climate allows it to compete for SE folks in a way that the Great Lakes can't.

 

As to Q2, if I had the answer I sure as heck would let you all know. I generally agree that booming economies in America are more often the product of luck (right time, right place) rather than anything specially done by the City Mothers and Fathers. Geography certainly is a key factor (like massive government investment in the South starting with WWI and accelerating with WWII that started the move of American industry out of the heartland) and being close to resources that are in high demand (see Pittsburg, Y-town). The challenge is that Cincinnati's economy has been relatively decent but in a way that leaves the region a little worse off with each passing generation relative to the high fliers.

You can't just snap your fingers and suddenly immigrants actually come to Cincy again, when you haven't had a transformative migration since East European Jews in the decades before WWI and the African-Americans in the wartime eras, it probably means there is a reason why. Mostly it has to do with the fact that Cincy's economy was long dominated by high-skill manufacturing, which by the way is an excellent foundation for an economy far more so than big low-wage and skill manufacturing jobs (which most of the rust-belt had until WWII and after).

 

By and by, this I why I am a historian and not a specialist in economic development.

I'll hazard from what seems to have worked in the past. . .

1. A culture of risk-taking - not sure you can create it, but fat and happy middle class folks tend to not to do this.

2. Accessible capital and affordable labor - my sense is that Cincy's conservatism has often hurt itself here in terms of investing in new things that aren't backed up by one of the big boys, as to the labor issue - population growth would help - stasis isn't so good.

3. a couple options here - some development that requires many smaller companies to provide services and goods to them (this is why ship-building, then railroads, then automobiles were so effective as encouraging economic development) or a critical mass in an industry that continues to provide skilled and connected workers to create their own businesses. I actually think Cincy does do the second option alright, but the global economy has undermined the capacity of these to grow like they once did (see manufacturing in China rather than in the inner city or Kentucky). I like that the region seems to be turning into something of an IT hub, however I'm not sure they need that many small companies to service them. It is more the other way around, that they provide services to companies, which works too. Unfortunately, logistics another local growth option doesn't seem all that likely to produce a surplus of middle class jobs relative to the working class ones.

"How will this feeling of yours manifest itself to the city's economic benefit? "

 

Easily. I'm an urban planning major and I'm passionate about it. There are plenty of ways I could get involved in promoting development in the city. You know, if people didn't care about their roots, Harvard wouldn't have an endowment of like 30 billion dollars. People do still care about the place they came from and the things that made them who they are. I'm trying to get involved in ULI's local YLG (If they'll ever respond to my friggin email).

 

Sure Cincinnati has seen better days  but every city goes through those cycles. It's not fair to single out Cincinnati and compare it to Atlanta of all places. Midwestern cities are much more comparable to each other. What I think Cincinnati needs is more high-tech firms. Atlanta is very techy and we should be too. Hardware, software design, bio-tech; that stuff easily snowballs.

Cincinnati is/was never associated with the textile industry in any major way. The south was always more textile reliant than any parts of the US, But the textile & furniture industry has went through more of a rough time than the auto industry because their jobs moved overseas & the auto jobs stayed here but just changed company names. If you are familiar with north carolina & georgia/alabama you would know about all of the abandoned textile/furniture factories. Those industries didn't pay as well as the auto industry, therfore people didn't seek out those jobs, they worked there mainly because they were unskilled laborers who otherwise probably wouldn't be employed. The auto industry sought out skilled workers as the Textile industry didn't therfore those jobs wouldn't make the headlines as compared to auto jobs.

 

Textile, furniture, & tobacco industries in the south have all but disappeared & will probably never produce the amount of product in this country as they once did. On the other hand, the Auto industry is building more cars than ever & the wealth is being shared in more places in america, but the industry hasn't changed as much as far as workers, they are just working for non domestic companies, Honda, toyota being the two largest. There are also more non domestic suppliers, 'especially around columbus' who make parts for these companies. Of course you don't know these companies because they are not called GM, Delphi, Delco or any of the many well known names. All you hear is layoff, layoff, layoff. The auto industry has become alot more 'Hi Tech' or 'efficient' than ever before, thats the only way to account for more auto production with less workers. But also, as more 'high tech' equipment has been introduced, so have the number of contractors who frequent auto plants. That leads to other jobs, but jobs that aren't considered 'Auto' jobs.

 

 

Cincinnati's economy actually did pretty well in the 70s and 80s, but the early 90s recession probably hit this area as hard as any since maybe the late 50s (when many of the consumer goods and apparel factories moved south and some of the leftover war-time stuff closed or drastically cut workers as tech allowed more efficiency). In the 90s, the region was aiming for Charlotte and Atlanta, I haven't heard that kind of chatter since the riots at least.

 

My sense is that Cincy still has issues with keeping its locally produced talent. Success is still seen as a move to Chicago or the Coasts. Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

 

 

 

Can you post a link? What evidence are you basing this statement on?

 

dmerkow, you there?

When I lived in north carolina there was alot of controversy about immigrants coming there & supposedly taking jobs from the locals who weren't as willing to work for a lower wage. There was alot of billboards along the roads that definitely would have created controversy around here. I'm guessing the billboards were maby related to unions but I'm not sure. But I do know the local companies were loving the fact they could hire lower paying workers, I worked for two of them myself. It made it difficult on me as a Supervisor/manager to communicate with most of them but once you determine who their spokesperson is, (someone who speakes english) its not a major problem. On the bright side, you didn't have as many complaints or insubordinate workers. I'm not sure if a huge influx of immigrants is an answer to any problem.

 

I lived more east, but here is one in asheville, nc

[youtube=425,350]LlWQQF3wJMk

 

I remember reading an article about local company employees moving here from other places & they decided to stay for different reasons.

I have had people tell me that once you move here you would probably not leave. And that might be the only thing I agree with that ever came out of the mouth of a local.

 

I don't find it ironic that almost all my friends here in Cincinnati aren't from here. Its like we seek each other out because the locals are so negative & depressing. Not saying all locals are like that, just to many.

My two friends that are from here have seen this city in a different light since they have known me. I have brought them the experience of museums, festivals, downtown, Mt. Adams & more. One of them even went to the Cincinnati Art Museum by himself!! Took pictures & everything. Then he had the nerve to rave about it like it was just built last week!! Took the same guy bar hopping in Mt. Adams & he didn't know what to think. I constantly question them about what they have done with those twenty some years of thier lives. A legitimate question considering I have done more in this city in four years then both them combined in a lifetime!

 

*NOTE:* I find the local females are more 'well rounded' than the local males. I just find myself attracted to ones that are from 'the other side' of the river.

 

 

Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

 

 

 

Can you post a link? What evidence are you basing this statement on?

 

dmerkow, you there?

Cincinnati is/was never associated with the textile industry in any major way. The south was always more textile reliant than any parts of the US, But the textile & furniture industry has went through more of a rough time than the auto industry because their jobs moved overseas & the

 

I'd check your history books on that one. Cincinnati was actually one of the centers of the textile industry for much of the first half of the 20C. However, Cincinnati specialized in tailored clothing, men and women's suits. Philip Scranton is expert on this. We didn't make the cloth, we made it into something. In fact, those textile mills and even more so the furniture companies were developed by Cincinnati capital after the Civil War and accelerating in the 1920s. Shoot Cincy was once a decent-sized tobacco processing town, never on par with Richmond. If you want an example of a textile company, I'll offer up Palm Beach.

 

To a link on people not setting down roots, I mostly have experience with the young adult crowd around town for the last ten years, in which Proctoids, Macy's folks seem to stay only as long as corporate keeps them here before they are off to their next place. Fifth-Third moves many of their middle-management around quite a bit too.

The transportation of heavy metal being costly is what keeps auto manufacturing here. Same reason why 10% of gold reserves in the world are held in nyc. They have wired cages with numbers on them representing countries and some dude walking around moving the gold bars around to different cages when necessary. Crazy.

To a link on people not setting down roots, I mostly have experience with the young adult crowd around town for the last ten years ...

 

 

 

I know. I just wanted to pull a subjective response out of you to reiterate how many of us feel about your line of thinking.

Compared to individual cities, Cincinnati could be the capital of alot of things Past or present. Custom suites are not textile industry, they can be tailored from anywhere. And capital from here doesn't have anything to do with it!! I imagine there was capital from here that did alot of things from coast to coast & around the world.  And again, just because Cincinnati had tobacco processing plants doesn't constitute it being a region known for tobacco. If you asked 1000 people about tobacco you would commonly hear kentucky, north carolina, & virginia.

 

 

 

Cincinnati is/was never associated with the textile industry in any major way. The south was always more textile reliant than any parts of the US, But the textile & furniture industry has went through more of a rough time than the auto industry because their jobs moved overseas & the

 

I'd check your history books on that one. Cincinnati was actually one of the centers of the textile industry for much of the first half of the 20C. However, Cincinnati specialized in tailored clothing, men and women's suits. Philip Scranton is expert on this. We didn't make the cloth, we made it into something. In fact, those textile mills and even more so the furniture companies were developed by Cincinnati capital after the Civil War and accelerating in the 1920s. Shoot Cincy was once a decent-sized tobacco processing town, never on par with Richmond. If you want an example of a textile company, I'll offer up Palm Beach.

 

To a link on people not setting down roots, I mostly have experience with the young adult crowd around town for the last ten years, in which Proctoids, Macy's folks seem to stay only as long as corporate keeps them here before they are off to their next place. Fifth-Third moves many of their middle-management around quite a bit too.

^

Southern Ohio was a large tobacco producing area in the 19th and early 20th century.  The white burley variety was developed here.

 

Dayton and Middletown where involved in this industry.  Middletown even had a Lorillard plant downtown at one time, in the 1920s.  Dayton's industry was more specialized, based on a tobacco variety imported from Connecticut, used for cigars.  The urban side of the industry in Dayton included drying, warehousing, prepping and cigar rolling.  There was also supporting industry for cigar box making and labels and such.  There are at least three industrial buildings left in town from this tobacco era. 

 

Presumably Cincinnati shared in the regional tobacco industry to some degree.

 

A legitimate question considering I have done more in this city in four years then both them combined in a lifetime!

 

Locals usually take things for granted, or sort of 'know about them', but don't actually go to the places.

 

 

 

 

 

It's nice to see the point of view from someone not from here.  I am definitely not one of the negative natives, and I am noticing a slow change in the overall outlook from that group.  I have said it many times - it seems like at least half of the people I now meet are not from here, and that is good as you start to get a population with different points of view and ideas.

 

I remember reading an article about local company employees moving here from other places & they decided to stay for different reasons.

I have had people tell me that once you move here you would probably not leave. And that might be the only thing I agree with that ever came out of the mouth of a local.

 

I don't find it ironic that almost all my friends here in Cincinnati aren't from here. Its like we seek each other out because the locals are so negative & depressing. Not saying all locals are like that, just to many.

My two friends that are from here have seen this city in a different light since they have known me. I have brought them the experience of museums, festivals, downtown, Mt. Adams & more. One of them even went to the Cincinnati Art Museum by himself!! Took pictures & everything. Then he had the nerve to rave about it like it was just built last week!! Took the same guy bar hopping in Mt. Adams & he didn't know what to think. I constantly question them about what they have done with those twenty some years of their lives. A legitimate question considering I have done more in this city in four years then both them combined in a lifetime!

 

*NOTE:* I find the local females are more 'well rounded' than the local males. I just find myself attracted to ones that are from 'the other side' of the river.

 

 

Sure people are brought here, but that isn't new and unfortunately they don't set down roots often enough.

 

 

 

Can you post a link? What evidence are you basing this statement on?

 

dmerkow, you there?

Why the hell is everyone arguing about Cincinnati's past? I don't see how Cincinnati's past textile and tobacco processing roots are going to help us. Jesus. Mark Twain can kiss my ass. Tom Sawyer was boring anyway.

OK!! Here we go again!!!  I'm sure you can find examples of the tobacco industry in all 50 states. As you can find examples of every industry in probably every state. But Again!! Cincinnati & Dayton for that matter (since you want to add Dayton to the equation) is not commonly associated with the tobacco industry. Do you often refer to Ohio wine when you are talking about wine??  Most wine conversations would refer to foreign or california wines although Ohio has a nice wine industry & its growing.

 

^

Southern Ohio was a large tobacco producing area in the 19th and early 20th century.  The white burley variety was developed here.

 

Dayton and Middletown where involved in this industry.  Middletown even had a Lorillard plant downtown at one time, in the 1920s.  Dayton's industry was more specialized, based on a tobacco variety imported from Connecticut, used for cigars.  The urban side of the industry in Dayton included drying, warehousing, prepping and cigar rolling.  There was also supporting industry for cigar box making and labels and such.  There are at least three industrial buildings left in town from this tobacco era. 

 

Presumably Cincinnati shared in the regional tobacco industry to some degree.

 

A legitimate question considering I have done more in this city in four years then both them combined in a lifetime!

 

Locals usually take things for granted, or sort of 'know about them', but don't actually go to the places.

 

 

 

 

 

We could also argue that people who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it!  Bla bla bla...

But I'm not trying to start a conversation about that.

 

Why the hell is everyone arguing about Cincinnati's past? I don't see how Cincinnati's past textile and tobacco processing roots are going to help us. Jesus. Mark Twain can kiss my ass. Tom Sawyer was boring anyway.

Well damn I sure hope entrepreneurs don't go all nostalgic on us and open sweat shops. Next thing you know, Kahns/Hillshire Farms will start letting pigs loose in the streets of OTR.  :roll:

You could be onto something there, a new festival of sorts. As long as it doesn't draw to many from below the mason dixon, it would need to be urban.

 

Next thing you know, Kahns/Hillshire Farms will start letting pigs loose in the streets of OTR.  :roll:

We already have pigs let loose in OTR but more similar to those depicted in Animal Farm, as they are corrupt...or so I hear.

Actually we need more rumpke employees in OTR, to take out the trash...

We could also argue that people who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it!  Bla bla bla...

But I'm not trying to start a conversation about that.

 

You don't seem to be trying to have a conversation about anything.  Why don't you go back through the previous posts?  Take the time to notice how dmerkow and Jeffrey make the effort to cite specific people or facts to 1) explain the objective foundation on which their opinion is based, as well as 2) give the discerning reader points from which to continue his or her interest in the topic, off site.  Referencing things like the white burley variety of tobacco or Ibold cigars makes the posts of these people worth reading, because it is something other than simply a gut reaction. 

 

It's a shame that so many of the good posters get drowned out by the rantings of those people who don't understand how to have an interesting, mutually beneficial argumentative conversation in an adult manner.  I suppose that since I know dmerkow is a professor of history specializing in 19th century urban history and was educated entirely in the city of Cincinnati, excepting the four years he spent at college, I am inclined to find his posts worth reading, but frankly I think the quality of them speaks for themselves.  I can only assume that school districts other than Cincinnati Public or the Archdiocese of Cincinnati have long given up teaching their students basic reasoning and communication skills.  It's not surprising that ohio1221 doesn't, "find it ironic that almost all my friends here in Cincinnati aren't from here," he seems incapable of having a conversation with anyone who understands how one has a conversation.  I suspect when he and his friends get together in Mt. Adams it sounds like a cocktail party with all the adults from Peanuts.  What is equally unsurprising is that ohio1221 confuses the definition of "ironic" with that of "coincidental".  Shine on.

^Well said, LK.

 

I don't mean to pile on, but a couple of things I read struck me as apropos to this conversation.

 

"But the statement above is a rant: you either agree with it absolutely 100 percent or you don't. There's no room for conversation here, no space for dialogue, no opportunity for mutual discovery, for actual learning. And that's the stuff that causes us to engage intellectually, you might say makes us fully human." Gustav Niebuhr. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/r_gustav_niebuhr/2007/09/zerosum_statements_are_inheren.html

 

"As I've said elsewhere: Nothing is so obvious that it's obvious. When someone says that something is obvious, it seems almost certain that it is anything but obvious - even to them. The use of the word "obvious" indicates the absence of a logical argument - an attempt to convince the reader by asserting the truth of something by saying it a little louder." Errol Morris. http://morris.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg-part-one/index.html

Were you offended by something I said?  Are you from Cincinnati??

You obviously didn't read any of my posts. I was simply making a point & it was rejected based on opinions. You seem to have an issue with that.

Having a few operations of a particular industry doesn't make a region the center of that industry or well know for that matter.

You can cite references all day & it doesn't make it so, nobody said there wasn't any tobacco operations in Ohio.

 

 

We could also argue that people who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it!  Bla bla bla...

But I'm not trying to start a conversation about that.

 

You don't seem to be trying to have a conversation about anything.  Why don't you go back through the previous posts?  Take the time to notice how dmerkow and Jeffrey make the effort to cite specific people or facts to 1) explain the objective foundation on which their opinion is based, as well as 2) give the discerning reader points from which to continue his or her interest in the topic, off site.  Referencing things like the white burley variety of tobacco or Ibold cigars makes the posts of these people worth reading, because it is something other than simply a gut reaction. 

 

It's a shame that so many of the good posters get drowned out by the rantings of those people who don't understand how to have an interesting, mutually beneficial argumentative conversation in an adult manner.  I suppose that since I know dmerkow is a professor of history specializing in 19th century urban history and was educated entirely in the city of Cincinnati, excepting the four years he spent at college, I am inclined to find his posts worth reading, but frankly I think the quality of them speaks for themselves.  I can only assume that school districts other than Cincinnati Public or the Archdiocese of Cincinnati have long given up teaching their students basic reasoning and communication skills.  It's not surprising that ohio1221 doesn't, "find it ironic that almost all my friends here in Cincinnati aren't from here," he seems incapable of having a conversation with anyone who understands how one has a conversation.  I suspect when he and his friends get together in Mt. Adams it sounds like a cocktail party with all the adults from Peanuts.  What is equally unsurprising is that ohio1221 confuses the definition of "ironic" with that of "coincidental".  Shine on.

^The only that is obvious is that you didn't cramer's post that is directly above yours

"Obviously" I did!!

 

^The only that is obvious is that you didn't cramer's post that is directly above yours

"Have A Nice Day"

Bon Jovi