January 29, 20223 yr ^ yeah they have done a great job redeveloping the shipyard site over the years. thats a nice cap to it. 9 hours ago, cadmen said: Of course parts of the middle of Lake Erie may be deep enough (just) and most of eastern Lake Erie is plenty deep enough not to mention all of Lake Ontario is fine. I was referring to a couple of posts that wondered about the efficacy of the subs moving underwater along the route from the Atlantic. Plus, IF the subs need to use an underwater trial to test a repair then the depth immediately outside of the Lorain harbor may be problematic. That limited depth may be enough for the navy to say it's not a feasible location. I'm just speculating here but when you consider this would be a new facility in a shallow great lake...well those could be deal breakers. Just sayin' i don’t see why they can’t just run the subs on the surface like a boat until they find some deep parts to take’r down to test? no?
January 29, 20223 yr 11 hours ago, KJP said: But that average is affected by the shallow west end where you can walk a long way out from shore and still keep your head above water. All commercial shipping channels such as the Black River in Lorain are dredged to a depth of 24 feet as is the shipping lane out into the deeper parts of the lake. East of the islands, the lake is much deeper. Each line represents one meter of water depth in this chart from NOAA. https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/greatlakes/erie.html To cut to the chase, the navy obviously has thought through these issues. They’re not gonna be halfway through building the shipyard and go “Oh s$&!t this lake is way too shallow!”
January 29, 20223 yr One would assume that is the case. The navy and probably a couple dozen other federal, state and local government entities would have to sign off. Not to mention Canadian interests. So yeah, we're just speculating here. I jumped in when a couple of posters questioned whether the subs could run under the ice or just under water period. There seems too be two ways to get the subs here. Either under their own power or on a barge. Bottom line: If the entire water passage from the Atlantic to Lorain is doable THEN we begin the next phase which is competing with other cities for the business. Whether Lorain wins that competition or not depends on the influence Ohio politicians and business leaders have. This game is just beginning.
January 29, 20223 yr Looks like the US Coast Guard's 9th District vessels are mostly repaired/serviced in Maryland? Quote How are upgrades implemented? All ISVS Program work is performed using the most cost-effective option to meet cost, schedule and performance requirements. Current ISVS Program work is performed by the Coast Guard at the Coast Guard Yard in Curtis Bay, Maryland and commercial ship yards. The yard demonstrated its ability to efficiently plan and execute major ship overhaul projects during MEP. I understand the Navy and Coast Guard are separate entities, but would make quite a bit of sense to move repairs of the Great Lakes fleet to the Lorain facility if it goes through. Would be a huge time (and probably money) saver. https://www.dcms.uscg.mil/Our-Organization/Assistant-Commandant-for-Acquisitions-CG-9/Programs/Surface-Programs/In-Service-Vessel-Sustainment-Program/
February 2, 20223 yr Some positive news on the efforts to bring the submarine dry dock to Lorain - backing by Ohio Congressional leaders. https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/02/following-proposal-from-lorain-ohio-congressional-leaders-ask-navy-to-consider-great-lakes-for-submarine-shipyard.html
February 4, 20223 yr Who's driving this? Is the Navy looking for a location or is a private sub-building company saying, hey, we need a new location and it should be Lorain?
February 4, 20223 yr 11 minutes ago, Pugu said: Who's driving this? Is the Navy looking for a location or is a private sub-building company saying, hey, we need a new location and it should be Lorain? it seems to be 100% driven by a pitch by bartlett -- but i dk for sure. so i guess we'll see if anything pans out, or if the navy gets better bid from elsewhere. seems like a longshot to me. 🤷♂️
February 4, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, mrnyc said: it seems to be 100% driven by a pitch by bartlett -- but i dk for sure. so i guess we'll see if anything pans out, or if the navy gets better bid from elsewhere. seems like a longshot to me. 🤷♂️ They’ve done a great job of getting a lot of the power players attention though. I like it’s chances. Would be a home run for state Republicans, and national Dems. And doesn’t require any new legislation. I’m optimistic. Edited February 4, 20223 yr by marty15
February 4, 20223 yr Key quotes from the cleveland.com article I posted earlier. Quote The letter addressed Monday to Carlos Del Toro, secretary of the Navy, comes the week after a former Navy captain, Edward Bartlett of Bartlett Maritime Corp., announced his proposal to build a drydock in Lorain and a maintenance facility in Lordstown to maintain submarines. The proposal estimates 3,000 jobs for Lorain and 1,000 for Lordstown. ... A 2020 report from the Government Accountability Office said that maintenance was lacking. Between 2015 and 2019, only five of 33 maintenance periods were on time. On average, they were 225 days late. Bartlett said the GAO report is what inspired his company and his idea for the drydocks in Lorain. ... Bartlett, whose company is based in Broadview Heights, told cleveland.com that he choose Ohio to develop his plan partially for its workforce. The other four shipyards have dealt with a lack of labor, he said. So Bartlett is driving it, but because he identified a need for additional maintenance capacity for the navy.
February 4, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Luke_S said: So Bartlett is driving it, but because he identified a need for additional maintenance capacity for the navy. Good for him I hope he pulls it off. This is real-life SIM city stuff that Ohio needs more of!
February 5, 20223 yr 5 hours ago, Cleburger said: Good for him I hope he pulls it off. This is real-life SIM city stuff that Ohio needs more of! Seriously man. This guy is a dreamer. I mean that in the greatest way possible. This would be a massive game changer for the region.
February 5, 20223 yr SSN's in Lorain is not going to happen. Their draft is 30.5 feet; the Seaway is 27; and lightening the boat would create stability problems. The idea of barging them is nuts. The Navy is not going to put a $3.5 billion asset in a barge for a 1,000 mile open-ocean transit from Groton (the nearest sub base) to the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Bringing shipbuilding and repair back to Lorain is great goal; but it's not going to be based on submarine overhauls. OTOH, a new class of smaller subs or other vessel being built in Lorain could be possible. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
February 5, 20223 yr I was afraid the lack of depth at different points from the Atlantic to Lorain would be a problem. And it wasn't just that the western part of Lake Erie is very shallow, it's also the St. Laurence Seaway and locks along the way. Without having specific drafts of the navy vessels and the depths of the entire route, just ballparking the feasibility I was concerned it wouldn't work. Barging smaller vessels might be doable though. Looks like the whole concept is an uphill battle. It's hard to fight geography.
February 6, 20223 yr its not just the draft, its also the draught. thats the rudders and propellors. i dk on navy subs, but sometimes that can be even lower in the water. it never seemed like subs or big ship repair was feasable, but maybe smaller ship repair is? also, parts repair in lordstown? i would say leave it to bartlett’s expertise, but as they are the ones making the pitch, i dk. the navy will decide. the good news is bartlett has correctly identified that the navy needs more capacity than it has, so ne ohio is still in the game, if there is one in the navy’s view.
February 6, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, mrnyc said: its not just the draft, its also the draught. thats the rudders and propellors. i dk on navy subs, but sometimes that can be even lower in the water. Even more critical than draft and draught, it needs to be considered how much does an SSN draw. 😉 Draft and draught are the same thing. And yes, you are correct, it would be the measurement of the lowest point on the rudder or propeller to the water line. I really hope this proposal gains some traction for Lorain and NE Ohio and of course would love for it to pan out as it’s boosters hope But I think others have adequately highlighted the significant impediments this has to coming into existence. Not least of which is the significant challenge that Bartlett would have in winning such a contract over significantly more established and resourced shipyard operators.
February 17, 20223 yr Did I hear correctly? Biden to visit Lorain "shipyards" during his visit tomorrow? Who knows, it could be to make some sort of an announcement.
February 17, 20223 yr Unfortunately no. He's coming to tout funding for Great Lakes cleanup which is also very important to the region but he won't be talking about the proposed Lorain shipyard facility. I would love to be wrong though.
March 11, 20223 yr NPR with an update on the Lorain Naval Shipyards. "Industrial revenue bonds in Ohio will pay for the project, and the U.S. Navy will lease purchase the buildings over 30 years. Contractors have not yet been selected, but Bartlett says it will be 100 percent union labor. Groundbreaking is scheduled for this fall with operations in Lordstown starting in two years and in three to four years in Lorain." This makes it sound like the project is going forward, but there's no mention of buy-in from the US Navy? https://www.ideastream.org/news/maritime-company-proposes-major-naval-facilities-in-lorain-and-lordstown
March 11, 20223 yr ^ it certainly does. i wonder about the navy buy in on this. bartlett has a 30yr lease? did that contract agreement happen already? also, is that the same arrangement as the navy has with the other navy yards? i thought those were fully naval owned facilities with some private contractors working there? anybody know the navy relationship with their current yards?? edit -- oh wait, it says lease-purchase, so bartlett is the site developer and builder and then in 30yrs it looks like the navy would or could own the yards and lordstown facilities. i am still wondering about when that deal was inked though. we'll see what happens here i guess. Edited March 11, 20223 yr by mrnyc
April 2, 20223 yr Midway Mall developer lays out plan, expects five-year turnaround The Chronicle-Telegram "Whitfield first revealed the plan in a Feb. 28 interview with The Chronicle-Telegram to transition the mall into a health and wellness and industrial innovation park with plans for the Cleveland Clinic to become the first tenant in a 50,000-square-foot medical office building." The mall has over 900,000 square feet and plan is to accommodate around 10 commercial tenants in around 700,000 square feet, with one being the CCF. Zoning was approved back on 3/16: CITY COUNCIL APPROVES ZONING OVERLAY CHANGE TO EXPEDITE BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND JOB GROWTH AT MIDWAY MALL and a rendering:
June 1, 20223 yr i just saw this -- the mayor and chamber of commerce are still hanging their hats on this navy yard dream: OPINION EDITORIALS Lorain County poised for economic boon with potential projects and jobs | Editorial By EDITORIAL BOARD | January 29, 2022 at 12:00 p.m. Lorain County Chamber of Commerce President Tony Gallo’s announcement that a new nonprofit organization was formed to become a leader for regional economic development and Lorain Mayor Jack Bradley informing the media that 3,000 jobs could come to the International City are good news for Northeast Ohio. *** On Jan. 27, there was more good economic news for Northeast Ohio. Bradley announced that there is an agreement to bring a U.S. Navy repair facility to Lorain if the White House approves the plan. If the project gets the nod from President Biden, groundbreaking could begin in October and will add between 3,000 and 4,000 jobs to the city after the facility is built. Bradley said the city, officials of the American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations, Bartlett Maritime Corp., and others have discussed the idea for about two years. The proposed Naval shipyard would transport nuclear-powered submarines to two dry-docks for repair. The submarines then would be reloaded on barges and shipped to the Navy for use in its defense program. And, the nuclear component of the submarines pose no risk to the public. more: https://www.morningjournal.com/2022/01/29/586585/
June 2, 20223 yr I don't know how likely it is to happen, but is anything else of this scale likely to come along for Lorain anytime soon?
June 2, 20223 yr This is massive news for the region, and supporting industries. “In Ohio, that will bring 1,800 jobs to the Sheffield plant, where they will be assembling Ford’s all-new electric commercial vehicles.“ https://fox8.com/news/ford-to-make-all-new-electric-commercial-vehicle-in-ohio/
June 2, 20223 yr this is great news... not sure what's going on in other states (other than California and Texas) when it comes to EVs... but three new plants in northeast Ohio and two in Southwest Ohio seems impressive... 👀 Edited June 2, 20223 yr by lockdog
June 2, 20223 yr I've been hearing rumors for a while that a 1+ million square foot plus Ford plant is in the works somewhere in the region but I don't know where. Actually, the rumors have quieted a down in recent weeks. So maybe they decided to just stick with an existing plant? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 2, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: I've been hearing rumors for a while that a 1+ million square foot plus Ford plant is in the works somewhere in the region but I don't know where. Actually, the rumors have quieted a down in recent weeks. So maybe they decided to just stick with an existing plant? This screenshot of the factory appears to show two new-construction buildings. Image from Cleveland Business News. Maybe this is what you heard about. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
June 3, 20223 yr 17 hours ago, Dougal said: This screenshot of the factory appears to show two new-construction buildings. Image from Cleveland Business News. Maybe this is what you heard about. Yeah man, 1800 new employees are gonna need some space!
June 3, 20223 yr So this is the Sheffield plant, but the expansion will be on the Avon Lake side? I keep seeing different jurisdictions in the announcements about the project.
June 3, 20223 yr It is probably going to be both. According to Google Earth, most of the vacant land on the site is either to the south, straddling the muni border, or on the west (Sheffield side)
July 18, 20222 yr Here's a look at redevelopment options for former Avon Lake power plant Avon Lake, Ohio, and the new owner of the former Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. power plant on Lake Road are planning to unveil the initial options to redevelop the 131-acre property at a public meeting on Tuesday. Avon Lake Environmental Redevelopment Group LLC (ALERG), a subsidiary of Charah Solutions Inc. of Louisville, Kentucky, which acquired the property in April for an undisclosed price, released renderings of the potential redevelopment options on Monday. ALERG leadership is expected to join representatives from Avon Lake, commercial real estate services firm Avison Young, and architecture, design and planning firm Gensler at the public meeting to present an overview for redeveloping the Avon Lake Generating Station property once it is remediated, the property owner said in a statement. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2022/07/18/look-at-redevelopment-options-for-avon-lake-plant.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 18, 20222 yr I'll believe it when I see it happen. Avon Lake never misses an opportunity to make itself as generic as possible.
July 19, 20222 yr good as long as they keep the big chimblely to constantly remind themselves what a dumazz decision that was to build a massive power plant on waterfront property instead of across the street. it's hard to believe, but just because it takes up so much land that was an even dumber move than when lorain built the sewage plant right at the freakin mouth of the black river instead of downriver by the steel plant where it belongs. also, if it had just been built across the street, who knows what the lakefront could have looked like, but now we would be looking at cool old power plant redevelopment designs. so yeah, something nice is long overdue here.
August 8, 20222 yr Looks like there is still optimism about facilities in Lorain & Lordstown for submarine maintenance... According to ABC News 5, Cleveland Those behind the effort to bring Navy submarine repair facilities to Ohio hopeful to be under contract soon Posted at 5:25 PM, Aug 08, 2022 and last updated 5:25 PM, Aug 08, 2022 LORAIN, Ohio — Good news from the Bartlett Maritime Corporation, the group behind the project to bring major submarine repair facilities to Lorain and Lordstown. Company officials met last week at the Pentagon with senior Navy leadership to discuss the status of their proposal. “We're hopeful that we'll be under contract before too long to do the preliminary planning for the two new facilities we proposed,” said company founder, chairman and CEO Ed Bartlett. “One in Lorain to support building equipment to be installed in new ships and one in Lordstown to support maintenance of equipment in existing ships.” More here: According to ABC News 5, Cleveland...
September 27, 20222 yr and on the negative side --- here is a detailed takedown of the navy yard plan --- not so much lordstown for consolidated parts repairs, but lorain yard if it were to focus solely on subs -- AEROSPACE & DEFENSE Navy Shipyard Proposal For 2 Ohio Towns Needs Revision Craig HooperSenior Contributor I evaluate national security threats and propose solutions. Mar 15, 2022,08:46am EDT *** Bartlett Maritime Corporation, founded a month after this author called for a new public shipyard in DefenseOne, entered the public eye earlier this year, openly urging the Navy to accept their unsolicited proposal for a new naval maintenance “depot” in the village of Lordstown and a good-sized naval shipyard at the town of Lorain, on the banks of Lake Erie. The audacious proposal, crafted by Ed Bartlett, a long-time enlisted submariner and a crew of other well-connected submarine veterans, hits on a lot of sympathetic notes for ardent navalists. The current set of four publicly-owned Navy shipyards could use supplementation, and America can benefit from additional facilities to maintain a current fleet of 11 nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and 68 submarines. much more here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2022/03/15/navy-shipyard-proposal-for-2-ohio-towns-needs-revision/?sh=69772b803322
December 7, 20222 yr https://chroniclet.com/news/335018/lorain-county-putting-together-plans-to-purchase-midway-mall/ Lorain County putting together plans to purchase Midway Mall Dec 07, 2022 6:00 AM A divided Lorain County Board of Commissioners on Tuesday said it would be the financial backer for a potential deal for the Lorain County Port Authority to purchase Midway Mall in Elyria for redevelopment. Two commissioners committed to supporting the plan with taxpayer dollars, while a third questioned whether it was the result of a behind-the-scenes real estate deal done through the secret actions of another. An early estimate is that the plan would involve the commissioners backing a loan to the Port Authority, costing $13.9 million and allowing the Port Authority to become sole owner of the mall property, commissioners and county officials said. FULL STORY AT LINK ABOVE
December 19, 20222 yr ohio ponies up for ford: Ford will get $205 million in state incentives to expand Ohio Assembly Plant, build electric vehicles in Lorain County Published: Sep. 27, 2022 By Sean McDonnell, cleveland.com AVON LAKE, Ohio — Ford will receive $205 million in incentives to expand its Ohio Assembly Plant in Avon Lake, where it plans to make electric vehicles. The automaker was approved for a 30-year tax credit worth $70 million Monday. JobsOhio, the state’s private economic development arm, is planning a $135 million in grants for Ford, according to spokesman Matt Englehart. Ford announced in June that it would build a new electric vehicle aimed at commercial customers at the Avon Lake facility, a $1.5 billion investment that could double the workforce at the complex that sits on property in Avon Lake, Sheffield and Sheffield Lake. more: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/09/ford-will-get-205-million-in-state-incentives-to-expand-ohio-assembly-plant-build-electric-vehicles-in-lorain-county.html
January 4, 20232 yr Lorain mayor touts lakefront redevelopment project in letter to Council https://www.morningjournal.com/2023/01/01/lorain-mayor-touts-lakefront-redevelopment-project-in-letter-to-council/ Lorain Mayor Jack Bradley highlighted plans to redevelop lakefront property near City Hall in a Dec. 12 letter to City Council, but the city needs to come up with nearly $10 million to pull it off. The area is just northeast of City Hall, 200 W. Erie Ave., and is known as the Pellet Terminal site. That site, which at one time was home to mountains of toxic iron ore pellets, also includes finger piers. The plan also calls for renovating the Hot Water boat launch, which is the only public free boat launch in the region...
January 4, 20232 yr #8-c on the Planning Commission agenda for Jan 4, 2023 - http://destinyhosted.com/agenda_publish.cfm?id=56724&mt=ALL&vl=true&get_month=1&get_year=2023&dsp=ag&seq=897 Also - #8-d is 4 single family infill and an 8 unit townhouse at Harborwalk on the east side of the Black River, which has been stalled out for over a decade since Zaremba bailed out. And last but not least, a Panda Express (item 8-b)
January 16, 20232 yr The erosion control project from about 10 years ago really destroyed most of the nice beach that was down there. Here's hoping it can come back but there's been so much armoring of the shoreline there now I'm not that optimistic.
January 17, 20232 yr Is someone actually pursuing the Power Plant project or is this just a speculative "what if"? I can't imagine the cost to demo and clean up a power plant in order to make it suitable for residential, but there's no denying it would be a cool project.
January 17, 20232 yr I thought I saw a photo last week or the week before showing demo already started, not sure of anything else
January 18, 20232 yr A bit pie in the sky but it would be cool to see the power plant made into a smaller-scale version of Pratt Street Station in Baltimore, or Battersea power plant in London. I believe the current owners of the Avon plant are the ones proposing this. We shall see, I suppose. At least they plan to keep the smokestacks. I wonder if the FAA has anything to do with that decision making considering how the stacks are commonly featured in aeronautical maps of the area. With the tallest one being 601 feet it can be seen for tens of miles around so it makes for a useful VFR aid for pilots. Edited January 18, 20232 yr by RoabeArt
January 18, 20232 yr 34 minutes ago, RoabeArt said: A bit pie in the sky but it would be cool to see the power plant made into a smaller-scale version of Pratt Street Station in Baltimore, or Battersea power plant in London. I believe the current owners of the Avon plant are the ones proposing this. We shall see, I suppose. At least they plan to keep the smokestacks. I wonder if the FAA has anything to do with that decision making considering how the stacks are commonly featured in aeronautical maps of the area. With the tallest one being 601 feet it can be seen for tens of miles around so it makes for a useful VFR aid for pilots. I don't think the FAA could force a property owner to keep the stacks just because they are a VFR checkpoint. They would just update the next version of the chart without them.
February 26, 20232 yr The plans to the Avon Lake power plant were recently revised: ALERG Conceptual Master Plan (PDF file) Unfortunately it looks like they plan to raze almost all of the buildings, including the original 1920s turbine house and the tallest (601 foot) smokestack. Remaining structures of the power plant highlighted in pink:
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