City Council committee votes down Madisonville luxury apartment project

Chris Wetterich - Staff reporter and columnist - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

A Cincinnati City Council committee on Monday blocked a proposed $25 million luxury apartment complex in Madisonville.

 

In a 3-1 vote, council’s Neighborhoods Committee sided with the Madisonville Community Council, voting down an amendment to a planned development agreement that would have allowed developer Ray Schneider to put 246 residential units in three buildings with parking at 5101 Madison Road.

 

Vice Mayor David Mann and council members Yvette Simpson and Wendell Young urged the community council, the Madisonville Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation and Schneider to restart negotiations over the development. Councilman Kevin Flynn dissented.

 

Cont

Madisonville Community Council

What is not covered in this article is that much of the opposition in the community comes from failure of the developer to finish phase 1 of this project. Among them improvements in roadways promised but never delivered. We look forward to continuing to work with the developer to come up with a solution that is mutually beneficial.

I'm not so sure it was a wise idea to shoot down this plan for residential along Red Bank.  I understand the Community Council and MCURC want development to occur at Madison and Whetsel, but I think there is definitely room for both of these developments.  While it's not my personal preference for living, there is a trend for developing housing adjacent to very busy thoroughfares, and they seem to be fairly popular.  The apartments at the Rookwood Exchange site and Delta Flats both seem like fairly odd places for residential, but alas they are there, and they are contributing to the repopulation of the city (yes, I know Rookwood is in Norwood).  If this development was allowed and proved popular, don't you think that would spark the interest of other developers looking for near by sites to develop? Madisonville needs to embrace the Redbank corridor's growth, while simultaneously looking to redevelop the traditional business district, imo.  We are seeing development creep eastward along Madison, with new apartments in Oakley and the new office developments planned for the Kennedy Connector area, and I think the next place to create a node is at Redbank and Madison- a node that could potentially be pretty high density and high impact given the presence of Medpace on the SE corner.  To expect development to pop up at Madison and Whetsel before it hits the vacant areas near Madison and Redbank is to ignore market and development trends.

I completely agree. Would I want to live there? No.  Would it fill up and add hundreds of residents to the edge of Madisonville. Yes. Does it mean Madisonville can't do its own development a couple blocks away in the Business district? Absolutely not.

It's an economics thing.  That corner of Madison and Red Bank is much more visible, flexible, and attractive in the long run to commercial uses than would  a smaller lot in the heart of Madisonville.  If you fill that corner with residential today, you have no chance down the line to fill them with commercial uses.  Madisonville wants both jobs and places for employees to live.

Cranley is 100% behind Ray Schneider's plan and said during today's Council meeting that he would place the ordinance in another Committee in order to get it to a full Council vote.

Cranley is 100% behind Ray Schneider's plan and said during today's Council meeting that he would place the ordinance in another Committee in order to get it to a full Council vote.

 

Good job Cranley, keep angering your constituents, you'll be thrown out of office in no time ;)

It's an economics thing.  That corner of Madison and Red Bank is much more visible, flexible, and attractive in the long run to commercial uses than would  a smaller lot in the heart of Madisonville.  If you fill that corner with residential today, you have no chance down the line to fill them with commercial uses.  Madisonville wants both jobs and places for employees to live.

 

With 5/3, Medpace, the Coca Cola bottling plant, all the office space off Redbank, 4 schools, the BMW and Mini Cooper dealerships, and the various businesses along Madison, I think there are lots of jobs already in the neighborhood.  The Gorilla Glue site is now a major vacancy that the Madisonville must work to fill, and there are still other sites that could be developed as office space in many different places in the neighborhood.  The site in question was formerly a drive in movie theater, so it's not like the housing development would be replacing an industrial or office use.  In being so ardent as to the type of development that occurs, the community could be at risk of scaring off development entirely. 

There's also a sizable assisted-living facility on the property.  So it's ok for old people to live there but not anyone else? 

Lol good point.

 

Here's a wild idea. What if they required retail space underneath the apartments, and after that was built, shift all the businesses in the strip with the goldstar there and put an office building there. Thatd really densify that whole side of redbank. But alas...

There already is going to be 3 retail storefronts on the first floor of this development.

I am not sure what to think.  If you can fill up the residential with retail below, they should do it.  It keeps more continuous development along Madison Road.  I don't think this needs to be an either or deal.  There is a lot of room for development in the Madisonville CBD and if they keep adding to the area then it will come.  I say let the market work.

There already is going to be 3 retail storefronts on the first floor of this development.

 

Oh didnt realize.

Pretty good blog post explaining how this whole thing went down:

 

https://cincyopolis.wordpress.com/2015/05/07/city-government-is-not-a-corporation-and-the-mayor-is-not-a-ceo/

Cincinnati City Council backs $124 million development project

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/05/13/cincinnati-city-council-backs-124-million.html?page=all

The Cincinnati City Council unanimously approved a development agreement on Wednesday that will bring a $95.5 million investment from Medpace Inc. and its development partner, RBM Development, to the drug development services company’s Madisonville campus.

Under the agreement, RBM and Medpace will redevelop the remaining 8 acres of the 22-acre former NuTone property to create a $60 million, 217-room hotel and conference center; two new office buildings totaling 160,000 square feet with a cost of $40 million, and multiple commercial buildings totaling 75,000 square feet costing $23.8 million. The retail space could include pharmacies, restaurants, bars and banks. The costs include the public and private improvements needed to build them.

Medpace has scheduled a 10AM press conference where I'd expect more details to be released.

Get a first look at Madisonville's $124M development

May 19, 2015, 11:15am EDT 

Tom Demeropolis 

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

RBM Development LLC released details of its planned $124 million mixed-use development in Madisonville, which will include the region’s first Dolce Hotels & Resort Lifestyle Collection hotel.

 

The remaining 8 acres of the 22-acre former NuTone property will become home to Madison Center, a project that will include two new office buildings totaling 160,000 square feet, multiple commercial buildings totaling 75,000 square feet and a 217-room Dolce Lifestyle Collection hotel and conference center. The development is next to Medpace Inc.'s headquarters at Red Bank Expressway and Madison Road.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/05/19/get-a-first-look-at-the-124m-madisonville.html

Wow.

I am not a big fan of surface parking fronting Red Bank and Madison Road.

Time to beef up the #11 bus route, at the very least. 

Looks like the Dolce hotel will be constructed on top of the existing parking garage.

This makes MCURC and the Madisonville Community Council's rejection of the housing at the old Oakley drive in site even more ludicrous.  The argument was that the site was the last chance for Madisonville to bring jobs to the community, and therefore it was too valuable an economic prospect to turn over to fairly dense residential and limited commercial development.  Well now we're going to have another corporate campus, a hotel, and a lot of commercial space right across the street, so there are your jobs.  What is the conspicuously absent element from this plan? Housing.

 

Also, lol that the crappy UDF is still going to occupy the corner.

Under the latest Red Bank proposals, the UDF would go away. I assume that's also why none of the buildings face Red Bank - but they also do not face Madison either.

Yeah I thought of that.  Hopefully, they can put up some thick hedges / shrubs along the property line surrounding the development fronting Red Bank and Madison, and also especially some thick ones around the school property line.

This makes MCURC and the Madisonville Community Council's rejection of the housing at the old Oakley drive in site even more ludicrous.  The argument was that the site was the last chance for Madisonville to bring jobs to the community, and therefore it was too valuable an economic prospect to turn over to fairly dense residential and limited commercial development.  Well now we're going to have another corporate campus, a hotel, and a lot of commercial space right across the street, so there are your jobs.  What is the conspicuously absent element from this plan? Housing.

 

It goes both ways. It also undermines the developer's argument that he has been marketing office space and hasn't been able to find users so therefore the demand isn't there.

^ Not necessarily.  Given the corporate backing of Medpace, banks would be much more likely to lend to that spec office project than one being developed by a pretty small time developer.  Also, the Medpace site will have way more and better amenities, and the hotel will also be a huge selling point for whoever decides to locate there.  Those advantages were not present at the drive-in site.  I do wonder if this area can and should support this much new additional office space, though.  Given the new product that is coming to market all along 71 from downtown to Mason, this area will face some stiff competition, especially since it is between Kenwood and Rookwood, which both have big office, hotel, and retail projects coming online.

Time to beef up the #11 bus route, at the very least. 

 

This intersection was going to have a rapid transit station by 1990, per OKI's 1970 Rapid Transit plan. 

$25M Madisonville residential, office project gets unanimous OK from council

Jun 10, 2015, 4:58pm EDT 

Chris Wetterich 

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

A $25 million Madisonville luxury apartment project got unanimous Cincinnati City Council approval Wednesday after its developer agreed to add office space and comply with neighborhood requests to make previously agreed-upon street improvements.

 

The Madisonville Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation and the Madisonville Community Council had opposed developer Ray Schneider’s plans to put 246 residential units in three buildings with parking at 5101 Madison Road. They believe offices are a better use for this part of the former Oakley Drive-In site near Madison Road and Red Bank Expressway, but Schneider said the market isn’t there.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/10/25m-madisonville-residential-office-project-gets.html

$25M Madisonville residential, office project gets unanimous OK from council

Jun 10, 2015, 4:58pm EDT 

Chris Wetterich 

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

A $25 million Madisonville luxury apartment project got unanimous Cincinnati City Council approval Wednesday after its developer agreed to add office space and comply with neighborhood requests to make previously agreed-upon street improvements.

 

The Madisonville Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation and the Madisonville Community Council had opposed developer Ray Schneider’s plans to put 246 residential units in three buildings with parking at 5101 Madison Road. They believe offices are a better use for this part of the former Oakley Drive-In site near Madison Road and Red Bank Expressway, but Schneider said the market isn’t there.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/10/25m-madisonville-residential-office-project-gets.html

 

Anybody know details about the "previously agreed-upon street improvements"? What streets will they be improving?

Re: street improvements, I heard something about closing off through access to one of the residential streets, but I don't know if that is what they are referring to here.

^Yup, there are a couple of factories at the bottom of Charlemar.  Semi trucks travel down this otherwise quiet residential street.  As part of the 2007 agreement for the redevelopment of the site, the developer was supposed to cul-de-sac Charlemar to redirect trucks down the wider streets built within the development.  He has failed to do so for eight years now.

^ all correct

Some more details on the Medpace projects, starting around page 29: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning-buildings/city-planning-commission/jul-17-2015-packet/

 

The property is 31.408 acres in size. The master plan for the property includes converting Building 700, currently a rainbow colored parking garage into a 217 room hotel with conference center and developing a mixed use facility on a vacant tract comprising of retail shops, residential units, restaurants and office space. These commercial uses will encompass a plaza level with designed-in event space, ideal for gatherings, music events and festivals. This complex will be linked to the hotel and the Medpace campus via walking/bike paths besides the adjacent street, all of which will provide accessibility for the surrounding community.

 

The Madison Center and Hotel includes the following use components with the associated size/capacity upper limits:

• 250,0000 square feet of mid-rise office on seven stories above the plaza level
  
• 100,000 square feet of Commercial/Retail
  
• 50,000 square feet of restaurant
  
• 350 multi-family residential units
  
• 217 room hotel, and
  
• 1,000 space parking garage incorporated into the mixed use building. A portion of the garage is below grade. The final number of spaces will be adjusted to fit the needs of the mix use tenants.
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Developer advances plan to build apartments, office space in Madisonville

 

 

Developer Ray Schneider wants the Cincinnati Planning Commission to approve his plans for the former Oakley Drive-In site near Madison Road and Red Bank Expressway.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/12/01/developer-advances-plan-to-build-apartments.html

It's a sad commentary on our urban design priorities that a developer thinks his apartment project has a better chance at a former drive-in movie theater site than, say, at the corner of Whetsel and Madison.

 

I fail to see how this development, in its present location, will benefit the neighborhood it is in. It doesn't build upon surrounding existing buildings; it is isolated; it requires a car to access.

 

On the other hand, a building that fully utilized the open land in the heart of Madisonville would build upon the success of surrounding projects (the old 5/3 Bank building, for example; people could walk to the ground floor retail, which would mean more eyes on the street; residents could walk to work in that neighborhood, or much more easily catch the bus to downtown.

 

The current development benefits only the developer; a development in "downtown" Madisonville would create a powerful feedback loop to benefit the whole neighborhood and spur future development.

^Agreed. Madisonville has some great bones, and a development that interacts with the neighborhood would have ripple effects on all of the nearby homes.

^ Hey guys, wait a minute...  First of all (as mentioned above), the developer isn't some social-service agency entering Madisonville to benefit it by correcting its problems, but a company buying into that neighborhood to benefit themselves monetarily.  Secondly, Madisonville may have some great bones, but it's still too much a ghetto.  And third, the center of Madisonville is overall more isolated from major retail and highway connections than is the Oakley drive-in location.  So, considering these things, the developer's choice of building sites may have been the best for them after all. 

Is the center of Madisonville a ghetto because no one invests in it, or does no one invest in it because it is a ghetto? The corner of Madison and Whetsel should be the most valuable (expensive and sought-after) land in the neighborhood. That's what being at the "center" means. Now, going in to why it is no longer the case isn't what I'm after, nor would it help the current state of affairs. However, I just don't see how a development located on a dead end street on the periphery of the neighborhood is supposed to really benefit the whole area -- to create a ripple effect as Ryan said. And not to nit-pick but I'd say that downtown M'ville is only a bit farther from 71 than the drive-in is.

^^Oh I totally understand a developer doing what they are doing. It's the safest investment they can make in the area. Hopefully development will creep over to downtown Madisonville, though.

Madisonville suffers from a bit of a perception problem. A lot of kids who grew up on the east side of Cincinnati know it as the outermost "ghetto" place in Cincinnati, and it was where the richest kids from Indian Hill always went to get their coke. These are the people now in the market for apartments like those proposed for the drive-in site. Hopefully some of these "Oakley-ish" sites can start to chip away at some of that over the next few years, and open up the more walkable areas of Madisonville for development.

Wasn't there an article about 6 months back on the Biz Journal talking of how Madisonville could be the next big neighborhood and the city was going to tear down that strip mall on Madison and Whetsel and replace with appropiate infill?

 

Madisonville has a lot of rough patches and some tragic, high profile crimes have taken place in that neighborhood in the last year, but honestly this neighborhood is not rougher than Walnut Hills or Over the Rhine where tons of money is currently flowing.  They have really nice, old building stock there, and I don't think the crime stats are extraordinarly high for that neighborhood.  Our company looked at quite a few homes there to move our business that didn't end up being the right fit.  Some of the homes, there was structural issues with the floors being off balance, etc.  However, they were going for way cheap.  If they can get the business district intact, I think you would start to see a lot of people moving in to fix up homes, since the prices are so low, it has good access, and great potential for a walkable neighborhood.  It also has easy access to shopping in Madeira Kroger, the Oakley Kroger, whole foods, and much more.

The Red Bank corridor is a big barrier to overflow development between Oakley and Madisonville.  I bet most people consider the Oakley Drive-In site and anything west of Red Bank to be Oakley, even though the border is technically the railroad tracks by BBQ Revue (RIP).  That's the most likely reason the developer is interested in this site, because of the proximity/association to Oakley rather than Madisonville. 

It's a sad commentary on our urban design priorities that a developer thinks his apartment project has a better chance at a former drive-in movie theater site than, say, at the corner of Whetsel and Madison.

 

I don't think it is fair to characterize a developer who has been developing a property that he owns for the better part of a decade and wants to continue building on that property as some kind of sad commentary. Meanwhile, the city of Cincinnati owns the strip mall and vacant lots at the corner of Whetsel and Madison, and the Ackermann group was chosen to be the preferred developer some time back.

Yea as far as ive heard from my father in law, who goes to community council meetings in madisonville every once in awhile and has lived there 30 yrs, they are working on getting the downtown area going independant of this develooment. Im excited for all of the development on redbank and on whetsel to take off. Almost bought a house there and visit all of the time. Really alot of it is a quiet neighborhood like the rest around there, but there ia some drug activity. Its really not a bad area at all.

Changemakers: Leaders work to 'get it right' in Madisonville

Lisa Bernard-Kuhn

7:09 AM, Jan 5, 2016

10:16 AM, Jan 5, 2016

 

 

Editor's note about Changemakers: This is part of a continuing series of stories and columns about people and places fostering change in our communities.

 

MADISONVILLE –  Where empty lots and storefronts sit today in this East Side neighborhood, planners have long envisioned dozens of new apartments, coffee shops, restaurants and more.

 

If all goes as planned, leaders in Madisonville say 2016 is poised to be the year many of those dreams become a reality as the hard work of the last decade begins to pay off.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/changemakers-leaders-work-to-get-it-right-in-madisonville

I'm interested to see how this all plays out in Madisonville, sounds like good news coming their way.  Madisonville has a lot of potential.  When my boss was looking for a building for his business, we took a look at retrofitting a lot of houses in that neighborhood.  There are some very large houses there and beautiful architecture.  We looked at a few that needed a ton of work, but not only that they had foundations that were all uneven and huge cracks in the wall which scared us off.  I wonder how the stock is in general in that area and how easily it lends itself to reinvestment.

On page 34 of the Feb 4 Planning Commission packet, there's a proposal to change zoning at 3806 Duck Creek to allow for the creation of a 20-home subdivision. The property is a long, empty parcel that faces Duck Creek. A new, private-drive would run parallel to Duck Creek from Saguin to Shawanoe Trail to allow access to the rear of the new houses. So, the properties wouldn't have driveways facing Duck Creek.

 

Parcel info: http://wedge3.hcauditor.org/view/re/0510010018490/2015/aerial_imagery

 

Planning Commission Packet: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/feb-5-2016-packet/

 

On pages 45-82 of the Feb 4 Planning Commission packet, there's more info about the planned Dolce hotel at Medpace, including some renderings of the site.

 

Planning Commission Packet: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/feb-5-2016-packet/

 

 

Wow, those houses will have a great view...of a floodwall! Ive thought for years someone should build an apartment building there or something.

And now there's going to be 20 driveways off of Duck Creek Road? At least there's a center turn lane.