I have a sense that this is going to fly here like a lead balloon, but Reason magazine's video team is putting together some bits with Drew Carey called "Reason Saves Cleveland."

 

Reason is a libertarian magazine which uses the tagline "Free Minds and Free Markets."  Carey is a libertarian-minded actor-turned game show host who serves as the face of their Reason.tv videos which promote free market ideas to political and social issues.  This is a left-leaning community here and while Reason is heartily open-minded on social issues, I suspect their free-market ideas will dismissed as crackpot by many.

 

Much as I hate negativity, and am preparing for the worst in as far as seing our city portrayed in some pretty negative light, there's nothing in the teaser video for this series that isn't true: Tough times? Check.  Economy in Trouble?  Check.  People leaving in droves for a long time?  Well, it's possible that losing half your population in 60 years could be referred to as drove-like departure, though the worst you can say about the county population is that it's stagnant.  The videos begin March 15.

 

^Good find.  Will definitely be interesting to see if there's anything new here or just same old stuff ("over regulation" "anti business climate" "unions"...)

Knowing these folks, there will be some of that, but I wouldn't lay any odds greater than 2 to 1 that there'll be a piece on legalizing prostitution.

Did he really really buy a house in Grove City? Why Grove City? I'd like to ask him. Of all places... he works in L.A. and is strongly identified with Cleveland. Honestly, besides the fact that he's an Ohioan, I can't fathom it.

The editor in chief of Reason and Reason.tv is Nick Gillespie who splits his time between Oxford, OH and DC.

 

I'm really looking forward to this series even though I have to wait a month for it to air:

http://reason.tv/video/show/1050

Here's some coverage of this series in the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/03/17/fixing_the_mistake_on_the_lake/

 

I hadn't previously known that this columnist was from Cleveland.

^The city needs to a better job of being more business friendly. It doesn't make any sense...It should be a breeze to start a business here. I also agree with this comment because there is more to this than just a laissez-faire approach to economic development:

 

"There's another "slight" difference between Houston and Cleveland. Houston has a land area of 600 square miles (that's a little smaller than all of Plymouth County) and Cleveland has a land area of 80 square miles. Why the difference? Cleveland is a much older city, like Boston, hemmed in by its suburbs. Houston has effectively annexed the land around it for years, allowing it to absorb its own suburbs as it grows. This includes both poor and affluent areas but provides Houston with a much larger tax base than a city like Cleveland which has become the poor center of the Cleveland metropolitan area. Cleveland's early 20th century manufacturing legacy has left much of the city with abandoned factories and brownfield sites. Even though Cleveland brought much wealth to Ohio and the U.S., it was based on dirty manufacturing -- one of the reasons why people fled from the city to the cleaner and greener suburbs. This decades-long trend has depopulated the city of Cleveland. The business climate that Jacoby describes does not help Cleveland or any other city but it's not the root cause of Cleveland's problems. btw -- if you go to Cleveland, while it's certainly not Toronto or Boston, is far more interesting and in better shape than its image."

Remember when Kucinich was mayor and ran the city into the ground? :'(

Again, this has been a 60 year problem. It wasn't just Dennis...The city put all it's eggs in the manufacturing basket and got burned. Yes, there have some terrible mistakes by local leadership, but this has not been the only problem.

I'm looking forward to see what Drew and Reason come up with.

 

Again, this has been a 60 year problem. It wasn't just Dennis...The city put all it's eggs in the manufacturing basket and got burned. Yes, there have some terrible mistakes by local leadership, but this has not been the only problem.

I know but, truly, isn't Dennis just ridiculous?

He's out there...lol

Good to see a libertarian represent for once! :)

 

Nothing better than advocating for free market principles and ideas that work.

Good to see a libertarian represent for once! :)

 

Nothing better than advocating for free market principles and ideas that work.

Ditto that! I'm watching each episode right now.  Everyone should watch this series.

The Scene's take:

 

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-ass-is-wrong/Content?oid=1862129

The Scene's take:

 

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-ass-is-wrong/Content?oid=1862129

 

Judging from the three episodes I was able to watch before press time, "What the hell, man?" is indicative of the level of insight. Libertarians aren't stupid — and they deserve credit for ignoring their conservative cousins' obsession with the so-called culture wars — but they have a bad habit of peddling simple, quick-fix solutions to complex, longstanding problems. And their solutions almost always involve the supposed wisdom of market forces — the "invisible hand," as it's sometimes called, a term Carey uses in an interview.

 

I don't always like the Scene, but my goodness, what a great paragraph.  It's funny that we were just having this argument over in the Tea Party thread.

I don't always agree with Scene either, but they seem to have nailed it this time.

I don't always agree with Scene either, but they seem to have nailed it agreed with me this time.

I don't always agree with Scene either, but they seem to have nailed it agreed with me this time.

 

Yes... I called them up and suggested the tone and content of that piece.  They said "my word, 327, it looks like we have no choice here but to accept your airtight logic.  Stop the presses!"  Oh, and that controversial Aunt Jemima cartoon?  My doing.  I also convinced the PD to run their "Quiet Crisis" series.  I'm also the dead guy who gave that quote to Joan Mazzolini last week.  I'm a regular Gail Wynand. 

I don't know if anyone watched the last episode in the series, "Bring Back the People".  Whether you agree with the pieces at the beginning and end or not, I thought it was the most effective presentation of the case for living in Cleveland that I have ever seen. A great collection of people and amenities in a real package that doesn't seem overly salesy.

I read the Clevescene article. They criticize the Reason series but offer no better plan of their own.

 

As for Jacoby at the the Boston Globe, IIRC he is their libertarian columnist (how did so many members of a marginal political group get so many plum columnist gigs?) and so can be expected to support Reason.

 

The Scene writes as if Reason is duty-bound to produce arguments on both sides.  All of us here were smart enough to know that these weren't going to be balanced pieces.  Reason has an opinion and they're going to state it.  Arguments on the other side have been and will be made my Michael Moore types.  It doesn't surprise me that Scene is going to get indignant when the one side being presented conflicts with their own.

 

Regarding the schools, they need to be allowed to fail.  Cleveland's Public schools have been failing their students one way or another, but there is little recourse.  And charter schools will only work if they follow a true market model.  Scene argues that for every success story, there is a "crushing disappointment."  First, I would argue that for many urban children, the default is "crushing disappointment."  Second, the "crushing disappointments" must either correct themselves or shut down.  There is no law or rule or district that requires children to go to these schools, which is the way it should be.  Scene argues that if charter schools are so great, why aren't they all over the place, and then dismisses out of hand the very powerful influence of the teachers' union, just as brusquely as it vilifies the Reason piece for not presenting the union's point of view.    I counter by asking if charter schools are so bad, then why are their any success stories at all?  And if there are successes, let's take a LONG hard look at replicating THOSE successes, not dismissing them just because "for every success there is a failure."  For every restaurant that is a success, how many fail?  Following Scene's logic, it's unfair to point out successful restaurants because others have failed.

I don't know if anyone watched the last episode in the series, "Bring Back the People". Whether you agree with the pieces at the beginning and end or not, I thought it was the most effective presentation of the case for living in Cleveland that I have ever seen. A great collection of people and amenities in a real package that doesn't seem overly salesy.

Agreed, I think the last two episodes were fantastic.

 

Bring the People Back

 

Encourage Bottom-Up Redevelopment

The glorification of Houston really shows why many of these ideas are backwards... If all you're looking for is growing the city and attracting business by any means necessary, some of this stuff might work. But in following this formula, you just might become soulless, like Houston. IMO, a smaller city with a soul is better than a bustling metropolis with none.

It's not really a glorification of Houston, just the statistical triumph of it.  Look at the numbers, that's all.  Or are you trying to say Cleveland is A-OK?

Cleveland need not lose its soul in the process of making itself more business-friendly.

I think Houston is a poor comparison. As I mentioned up thread, Houston is 600sq miles. This is roughly 8 times the size of Cleveland and almost 1.5 times the size of Cuyahoga County. In my opinion, it's apples and oranges. However, this doesn't mean we can't learn a few things.

It's not really a glorification of Houston, just the statistical triumph of it.  Look at the numbers, that's all.  Or are you trying to say Cleveland is A-OK?

 

I'm saying that just looking at the numbers is not a good way of picking a city whose policy you want to emulate. That holds generally, but specifically I was focusing on the fact that the numbers will not instantly tell you whether a city has any flavor. And the policies of a successful numerically, but flavorless city may not be the best policies to follow, lest you run the risk of losing the flavor you have.

 

Cleveland need not lose its soul in the process of making itself more business-friendly.

 

I agree, but aspiring to be like Houston just to foster a business-friendly environment seems, to me, ill-advised.

 

I think Houston is a poor comparison. As I mentioned up thread, Houston is 600sq miles. This is roughly 8 times the size of Cleveland and almost 1.5 times the size of Cuyahoga County. In my opinion, it's apples and oranges. However, this doesn't mean we can't learn a few things.

 

It's also sunbelt, has oil off its coast, yada yada...yeah, they're not a great comparison. I suppose it's interesting, though. It's certainly a different perspective than your standard city-enthusiast would give, but that doesn't necessarily make it very useful. It doesn't necessarily make it not useful either, I guess.

The big difference isn't size but its "aspirational attractiveness."

 

The big four letter word in urban socio-demographics: JOBS

The big difference isn't size but its "aspirational attractiveness."

 

The big four letter word in urban socio-demographics: JOBS

New Orleans has less jobs and jobs growth than Houston, but I would rather model my city after New Orleans. Sorry to burst your one-dimensional fiscal conservative bubble.

Cleveland had jobs when America was the manufacturing center of the world. Houston was the size of Dayton when Cleveland was the 6th largest city in the country. Let's put this discussion into context. All the Rust Belt cities had jobs when we were out pumping widgets, steel and cars. I'm not trying to make excuses, but hindsight is 20/20. Sometimes, I think we forget that the Rust Belt's main industry disappeared in less than a generation. Yes, local leadership has made plenty of mistakes and we can do a lot better, but the region's main industry vanished. Imagine the economic climate in Las Vegas if 80 percent of it's casinos closed over the next twenty years. The region can learn from other cities and needs to become more business friendly; however, we can't have this discussion in vacuum.

One more point...free market principles helped kill manufacturing in this country...Companies moved overseas because it was cheaper. In my opinion, free markets are not always the answer to our economic problems.

It's not really a glorification of Houston, just the statistical triumph of it.  Look at the numbers, that's all.  Or are you trying to say Cleveland is A-OK?

 

I'm saying that just looking at the numbers is not a good way of picking a city whose policy you want to emulate. That holds generally, but specifically I was focusing on the fact that the numbers will not instantly tell you whether a city has any flavor. And the policies of a successful numerically, but flavorless city may not be the best policies to follow, lest you run the risk of losing the flavor you have.

 

Cleveland need not lose its soul in the process of making itself more business-friendly.

 

I agree, but aspiring to be like Houston just to foster a business-friendly environment seems, to me, ill-advised.

 

I think Houston is a poor comparison. As I mentioned up thread, Houston is 600sq miles. This is roughly 8 times the size of Cleveland and almost 1.5 times the size of Cuyahoga County. In my opinion, it's apples and oranges. However, this doesn't mean we can't learn a few things.

 

It's also sunbelt, has oil off its coast, yada yada...yeah, they're not a great comparison. I suppose it's interesting, though. It's certainly a different perspective than your standard city-enthusiast would give, but that doesn't necessarily make it very useful. It doesn't necessarily make it not useful either, I guess.

 

I agree, I don't think that Houston is a realistic model, and even if it were, I wouldn't like to see Cleveland go in that direction if possible.

Maybe the fact that Houston was "in favor" with the previous president of 8 years had something to do with their growth???

I don't know if anyone watched the last episode in the series, "Bring Back the People".  Whether you agree with the pieces at the beginning and end or not, I thought it was the most effective presentation of the case for living in Cleveland that I have ever seen. A great collection of people and amenities in a real package that doesn't seem overly salesy.

 

The last two episodes were the first videos I watched. I do agree that there was a nice collection of people to represent Cleveland and express their love for this city. There are so man amazing and interesting people that live in Cleveland and the videos helped to show that. Now if only other people would realize that too, that Cleveland really is a wonderful place!

One more point...free market principles helped kill manufacturing in this country...Companies moved overseas because it was cheaper. In my opinion, free markets are not always the answer to our economic problems.

 

Free markets did not kill manufacturing in this country; they made it more efficient and allowed it to survive in the face of global competition.  Contrary to popular myth, manufacturing output in this country is <a href="http://www.economistblog.com/2009/02/22/made-in-usa-is-alive-and-well-manufacturing-goes-high-end-and-the-usa-is-still-the-global-leader/">alive and well</a>.  We're simply manufacturing more with fewer workers, meaning that it's not as attractive a career choice as it used to be, at least for people hoping to just work assembly lines or the like.

^C'mon...seriously? Tell that the millions of workers who have the lost their jobs over the last thirty years. At our peak in 1979, there were just under 20 million manufacturer jobs. Currently, we're at around 12 million, the lowest number of manufacturing jobs since the 1950's. Just because we lead the world in the "value of goods' produced does not mean manufacturing is "alive and well." It just means we produce "high end goods" with a lot fewer workers. This is great for  manufacturers, but what does this mean for the American worker looking for a job?

What about automation?  I mean, I think that is the biggest job killer of factory jobs.  Progress means change, and there are just less of these jobs than there used to be.  There are more jobs in other areas now than there were when factory jobs were prevalent - how many computer-industry jobs were there back then?  I mean, there are jobs now completely dedicated to internet-based things like SEO or social media; those jobs have replaced the factory jobs.

 

People need more skills and education now to get a decent job than they used to, that's just the way it's worked out.  If you are looking for a factory job and going on only a HS diploma, you have much fewer choices than you used to.  OTOH, you probably grew up using a computer and know a lot more about computers and are able to type before you even get to high school, unlike older workers.  I don't know why anyone would graduate and expect to get a stable factory job for life on a HS diploma anymore, that is just not a realistic career path to depend on like it used to be.

 

The American worker looking for a job needs to get job training or more education, or look for work in fields that are hiring and growing, not try to jockey for the few positions are left in a dwindling industry.

^C'mon...seriously? Tell that the millions of workers who have the lost their jobs over the last thirty years. At our peak in 1979, there were just under 20 million manufacturer jobs. Currently, we're at around 12 million, the lowest number of manufacturing jobs since the 1950's. Just because we lead the world in the "value of goods' produced does not mean manufacturing is "alive and well." It just means we produce "high end goods" with a lot fewer workers. This is great for  manufacturers, but what does this mean for the American worker looking for a job?

 

It means re-educate yourself for the 21st century job market!  Just because we don't use as many hands to create a product doesn't mean that those jobs vanish into thin air.  Many people have been replaced by automation, but we still need people to design, manufacture, test, program, install, and sometimes operate these machines.  Manufacturing jobs are down, but electronic/computer jobs grew exponentially in the 90s and early 2000's.  It's an unfortunate shift for many older workers that have a harder time re-tooling, but it's just the way it is.  Did they cry for the poor buggy maker who lost his job when Ford opened his assembly line?

^C'mon...seriously? Tell that the millions of workers who have the lost their jobs over the last thirty years. At our peak in 1979, there were just under 20 million manufacturer jobs. Currently, we're at around 12 million, the lowest number of manufacturing jobs since the 1950's. Just because we lead the world in the "value of goods' produced does not mean manufacturing is "alive and well." It just means we produce "high end goods" with a lot fewer workers. This is great for manufacturers, but what does this mean for the American worker looking for a job?

 

It means re-educate yourself for the 21st century job market! Just because we don't use as many hands to create a product doesn't mean that those jobs vanish into thin air. Many people have been replaced by automation, but we still need people to design, manufacture, test, program, install, and sometimes operate these machines. Manufacturing jobs are down, but electronic/computer jobs grew exponentially in the 90s and early 2000's. It's an unfortunate shift for many older workers that have a harder time re-tooling, but it's just the way it is. Did they cry for the poor buggy maker who lost his job when Ford opened his assembly line?

 

+1 to both this and rockandroller's post.  Automation, not outsourcing, is what resulted in the decline in factory jobs, just like mechanization is what led to the decline in agricultural labor jobs 100 years ago.

Death of manufacturing and death of the robust manufacturing workforce are two different things. The rote jobs have been co-opted by machines and outsourcing, whereas the "skilled"/"creative" jobs are alive and well.

 

Free market principles and globalization killed the robust workforce, along with technology. Technology and globalism are scary, job-killing forces (technically, globalism is job-spreading). Once we have reached a critical mass of efficiency through machines and outsourcing, how many people are going to be able to afford to have the machines working for them, instead of against them? What will the working class do?

 

Perhaps natural resources needed to run the machines will be a limiting factor, but even that is a frightening scenario. I fear that what's happened to Cleveland is a sign of things to come, on a much grander scale. Perhaps Western Europe, with its declining populations, will be at an advantage once they recover from the likely collapse of their welfare states. China could go either way, given their enormous population on one hand and their one-child rule on the other.

Did they cry for the poor buggy maker who lost his job when Ford opened his assembly line?

 

Actually, Woodrow Wilson (IIRC) proposed protectionist clauses to keep buggy manufacturers in operation due to the advent of the automobile, particularly due to the assembly line processes Ford helped develop.

+1 to both this and rockandroller's post. Automation, not outsourcing, is what resulted in the decline in factory jobs, just like mechanization is what led to the decline in agricultural labor jobs 100 years ago.

 

Where do you think your clothes or children's toys or computer parts are manufactured?  Not in the US.  It's a combination of outsourcing and technology.

Drew is right ... Cleveland is way over-regulated and over-taxed.  Face it, Cleveland is not that business friendly.

Drew is right ... Cleveland is way over-regulated and over-taxed. Face it, Cleveland is not that business friendly.

 

Agreed.  But Scene's criticisms of Drew's approach are still valid.  The fact that Cleveland needs to be more pro-business doesn't mean that "free market principles" alone are going to solve the city's problems.  In some cases, as noted above, policies justified by "free market principles" have been most unhelpful to this region.

Drew is right ... Cleveland is way over-regulated and over-taxed. Face it, Cleveland is not that business friendly.

Truth.  The video makes good points about zoning and the need for reform.

+1 to both this and rockandroller's post.  Automation, not outsourcing, is what resulted in the decline in factory jobs, just like mechanization is what led to the decline in agricultural labor jobs 100 years ago.

 

Where do you think your clothes or children's toys or computer parts are manufactured?  Not in the US.  It's a combination of outsourcing and technology.

 

Why should I care where the clothes I buy are manufactured, rather than how they're manufactured?  What purpose does such economic nationalism serve?  Also, how do you square your argument with the fact that its stated premise is wrong: manufacturing output has steadily increased in America notwithstanding the decline in the number of manufacturing jobs?  Is there some God-given right to a $50k job just turning screws?  Was that somehow slipped into the American social contract when I wasn't looking?

Where do you think your clothes or children's toys or computer parts are manufactured?  Not in the US.  It's a combination of outsourcing and technology.

 

Why should I care where the clothes I buy are manufactured, rather than how they're manufactured?  What purpose does such economic nationalism serve?  Also, how do you square your argument with the fact that its stated premise is wrong: manufacturing output has steadily increased in America notwithstanding the decline in the number of manufacturing jobs?  Is there some God-given right to a $50k job just turning screws?  Was that somehow slipped into the American social contract when I wasn't looking?

 

You really extrapolated there.  I was only stating the reason we have lost a lot of manufacturing jobs.  It surely is a combination of technology and outsourcing.  I didn't argue any of the other points you were "fighting" me on.

 

I must really have you seeing red when you see my screen name! :)

Gee. Looks like a lot of sour grapes at the Cleveland Scene. A lot of ad-homiem attacks with no validity or credibility to support their statements. If they truly were a credible publication, they would offer counterpoints to Drew Carey (or points to agree with), not jabbing at his weight, his success as a television host and star, or his brand. He is very much a public figure, and in reality, that is who people will listen to given the chance. They carry a lot of weight (no pun intended) to make a difference, even when they are thousands of miles away.

 

Since no one has linked to the site yet, here is Reason Saves Cleveland --

http://reason.tv/video/show/reason-saves-cleveland-with-dr

Where do you think your clothes or children's toys or computer parts are manufactured?  Not in the US.  It's a combination of outsourcing and technology.

 

Why should I care where the clothes I buy are manufactured, rather than how they're manufactured?  What purpose does such economic nationalism serve?  Also, how do you square your argument with the fact that its stated premise is wrong: manufacturing output has steadily increased in America notwithstanding the decline in the number of manufacturing jobs?  Is there some God-given right to a $50k job just turning screws?  Was that somehow slipped into the American social contract when I wasn't looking?

 

You really extrapolated there.  I was only stating the reason we have lost a lot of manufacturing jobs.  It surely is a combination of technology and outsourcing.  I didn't argue any of the other points you were "fighting" me on.

 

I must really have you seeing red when you see my screen name! :)

 

I'm pretty sure you were arguing the actual statistics, i.e., that outsourcing and automation have led to a decrease in manufacturing in America, when they have not.  I'll admit that I was extrapolating that you were also suggesting that the country should care about the decline in manufacturing employment, but perhaps that was unfairly ascribing sir2gees' views to you.

 

Also, I'm not seeing red.  I stop posting when I start seeing red.

Gee. Looks like a lot of sour grapes at the Cleveland Scene. A lot of ad-homiem attacks with no validity or credibility to support their statements. If they truly were a credible publication, they would offer counterpoints to Drew Carey (or points to agree with), not jabbing at his weight, his success as a television host and star, or his brand. He is very much a public figure, and in reality, that is who people will listen to given the chance. They carry a lot of weight (no pun intended) to make a difference, even when they are thousands of miles away.

 

It's Scene.  Juvenile humor, ad-hominem attacks, and poorly researched "facts" are their stock in trade.  Leave it to our alternative weekly to make the Plain Dealer look good.