59 minutes ago, freefourur said:

No need for bollards or barriers. I don't see how the square is any different from any other stretch of sidewalk. There is no barrier needed for "terrorism" reasons. 

 

Agreed, especially considering the estimated cost is $3,000,000 with the City contributing $1.5 million, the severely underfunded RTA expected (but uncommitted) to kick in $500,000, and the Group Plan Commission tapping unidentified sources for the remaining $1,000,000.  Sec. 3 in Ord. 242-2022: https://cityofcleveland.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=10574835&GUID=417ADEF0-2671-40DA-BD38-449ED1CDCF8D&G=2EB18EF1-2C21-4D1D-85C9-B38100AB8FFD 

 

This solution seems less than half baked. 

 

Edited March 17, 20223 yr by grayfields

Let's just live with it as is until it can be unified at some time in the future.

 

 

boo

 

And there back

 

Edited March 19, 20223 yr by freethink

boo. I guess the jersey barriers tie the whole thing together by matching the spirit of the constant fencing around the northern half.

Even the new administration can't shake off the City of Cleveland dumbness. The people in charge there could screw up a one car funeral. 

Is it really because they're dumb or are their hands tied by the Feds as l've maintained. It's the Feds who are terrorist conscious not Cleveland pols. 

 

That being said, I'm not 100% sure but if the Feds are not making the city put up some kind of separation of the road/park why would this lunacy and expense be ongoing? I just can't believe that both Jackson and Bibb came up with the idea to do this for no reason. 

Why is the northern half of Public Square fenced off?  What is the plan for the  diseased trees that were removed last year? I haven't heard any updates on maintaining the landscape.   

17 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

Why is the northern half of Public Square fenced off?  What is the plan for the  diseased trees that were removed last year? I haven't heard any updates on maintaining the landscape.   

The grass is fenced off to protect it during the winter. People walking on frost covered grass damages it. Given the density around public square this is a smart decision.

 

I used to work at a golf course and they are very concerned about people walking on recently frosted grass. They could make the grass more resilient by cutting it longer, but with the amount of people who walk through PS it probably wouldn't make a difference. 

19 hours ago, cadmen said:

Is it really because they're dumb or are their hands tied by the Feds as l've maintained. It's the Feds who are terrorist conscious not Cleveland pols. 

 

That being said, I'm not 100% sure but if the Feds are not making the city put up some kind of separation of the road/park why would this lunacy and expense be ongoing? I just can't believe that both Jackson and Bibb came up with the idea to do this for no reason. 

 

It's 100% the city.  Back in 2017, Frank made the RTA procure traffic and safety studies before reopening the square to traffic.  Those studies made several recommendations to accommodate bus traffic through the square.  Those recommendations included, "A temporary, removable railing should be added to channel pedestrian traffic to crosswalks and prevent jaywalking."

 

These barriers are not about terrorism.  The study found the terrorism risk existed regardless of whether the square was open or closed to traffic.  These barriers in particular do not mitigate that risk.  These barriers are intended to prevent kids from wandering into traffic because (in some people's opinion) the square does not clearly delineate the street from the plazas.  

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/02/details_of_the_safety_study_on.html (final report) and https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/rta-traffic-studies-support-opening-public-square-to-buses/Content?oid=5021851 (preliminary report)

 

Thanks for the link. I guess that settles it.

Frankly (pun!), these concerns should have been raised and addressed during an early design stage. The square was intentionally and expressly designed to feel like unified halves.  But "The Mayor's Office [only] cited concerns about pedestrians, namely children, being struck by buses crossing Superior through the square" after the $50 million project's completion.  https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/01/rta_completing_safety_analysis.html

 

The proposed $3 million remediation project is likely intended to address Frank's pedestrian safety concern since this administration apparently agrees with its validity by maintaining the barriers.  And also - separately - address the "terrorism" concern that lunatics will plow through the square when Superior is closed during a special event and filled with revelers. 

 

The city's (both administration's) communication on this issue is confusing and conflates the two safety issues.  But that's likely because the rationale for the existing barriers and the need for the $3 million corrective action (and its funding) is flimsy. 

 

Edited March 19, 20223 yr by grayfields

On 3/18/2022 at 10:41 PM, Ethan said:

The grass is fenced off to protect it during the winter. People walking on frost covered grass damages it. Given the density around public square this is a smart decision.

 

I used to work at a golf course and they are very concerned about people walking on recently frosted grass. They could make the grass more resilient by cutting it longer, but with the amount of people who walk through PS it probably wouldn't make a difference. 

Protecting the grass is a reasonable  decision. Not having any paths through that part of the Square that could hold up to winter was a bad decision. They should add a few more north-south paths near the Ontario axis in the middle. 

and fix the drainage issues on that lawn.  Its horrendous.  half of that lawn feels like a swamp most of the year.  For $50 million, the workmanship on the square was horrible.   

5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Protecting the grass is a reasonable  decision. Not having any paths through that part of the Square that could hold up to winter was a bad decision. They should add a few more north-south paths near the Ontario axis in the middle. 

It's worth remembering that PS just isn't that big, and it's already doing a lot of different jobs. PS houses a war memorial, a restaurant, and a bus right of way with multiple stops. On top of all of that, it's also supposed to be a park. 

 

There's a potential design of PS for which your critique might represent a genuine oversight, but for this design the lack of a north south pedestrian connection is clearly a feature not a bug. I count three concrete slabs functioning as benches, and one miniature stage blocking the N/S route. Pedestrian and bike traffic is deliberately routed away from the N/S artery to preserve park space. A plaza with splash pad to the South and green space in the north.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the area you'd like to see become a sidewalk would break up the only level green space in PS, taking away some of its functionality. 

 

32 minutes ago, Ethan said:

It's worth remembering that PS just isn't that big, and it's already doing a lot of different jobs. PS houses a war memorial, a restaurant, and a bus right of way with multiple stops. On top of all of that, it's also supposed to be a park. 

It's these for well over a century.   I'd gladly trade in the "new" use as a park for its return to a thriving center of transportation and commerce.  

 

 

 

 

I hope they can address the constant use from Rebol using the entrance to Public Square as their parking. I have seen too many times vehicles left longer than to unload deliveries.  If the circular concrete planters were placed throughout the property to stop vehicles from hitting pedestrians why weren't any added to the most vulnerable area behind Rebol?

On 3/20/2022 at 3:17 PM, Ethan said:

It's also worth pointing out that the area you'd like to see become a sidewalk would break up the only level green space in PS, taking away some of its functionality. 

 

Here are the desire paths. Interesting enough the western side one is significantly more pronounced. You can't see from the angle but both of them go right to where the ledge (behind the stage) ends.

 

Oh this thread is painful

 

It looks like the claims that Homeland Security was calling for bollards was actually Cleveland Police requesting it. Or maybe city safety department? Still nothing definitive. 

 

 

I am frustrated with whom really has made the safety requirement policies necessary for Public Square. I would really like to see the plans shown to the public prior to approval.  I also want to know what the plan is for the removed diseased trees. Are they to be replaced?   I would also love to see  how Field Operations would adjust Public Square if all transit was allowed to be removed.

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by dave2017

So local officials are behind the ridiculous idea to demand separation (bollards, jersey barriers, whatever) of the public areas and the road through the Square? Yeah, because that's the only place in the city where a car can drive off of the road and into a crowd. Are you freaking kidding me! If it is the case that we were behind that decision then we are even more stupid than I thought. And too make it worse, NO officials in local government thought to stop this from happening. And when the money for the bollards couldn't be found they just put up the jersey barriers and left them there. Well except for the times they had them moved, then put back and wasted $$ again and again.

 

This is our city government at work? Clueless idiots!!

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

This is our city government at work? Clueless idiots!!

Leftover Frank Jackson syndrome.  It's going to take a while to work it's way out of the culture.   

 

Jackson was just being handled by his corporate interests trying to get transit out of the square and turn it into their own little Crocker Park.  

I'd like to think UO got the ball rolling on this line of questioning 

Instead of all bollards, would planting, say a mature tree every other one be acceptable? 

58 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Instead of all bollards, would planting, say a mature tree every other one be acceptable? 

Planting a mature tree is a challenging process, and I doubt they'd survive the process in a mostly paved public square. 

 

Honestly, just put in the bollards and be done with it! It's a perfectly acceptable solution that could have been done years ago. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good here. I don't want more time to be wasted on finding a creative solution.  

we could just not put anything in an open the square

40 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

we could just not put anything in an open the square

Everyone outside of city hall’s preference.

Glad to see this finally moving forward.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/04/cleveland-city-council-approves-swapping-jersey-barriers-with-bollards-on-public-square.html

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The concrete Jersey barriers on Public Square are one step closer to removal, after Cleveland City Council on Monday approved plans to replace them with bollards that are considered to be more attractive.

 

Council agreed to spend up to $1.5 million on the improvements, which carry a total expected price of $3 million. The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority could contribute $500,000, though its board has yet to vote on that allocation. The remaining balance is expected to be covered by fundraising efforts.

 

...

 

The part that was most confusing to me, is that the article calls out "up to 80 mostly permanent steel bollards" I'm not sure how we get to that many, that seems like a lot to me. Most of the area has curbs, so where are these bollards going? Down the whole length of superior? Edit: It looks it could be 4 foot spacing following the current Jersey barrier path. 

 

Edited April 26, 20223 yr by Ethan
.

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

The part that was most confusing to me, is that the article calls out "up to 80 mostly permanent steel bollards" I'm not sure how we get to that many, that seems like a lot to me. Most of the area has curbs, so where are these bollards going? Down the whole length of superior? Edit: It looks to be 4 foot spacing following the current Jersey barrier path. 

 

I’m generally a fan of bollards, but this seems like a stupid waste of money. Why are we putting bollards where regular vehicles shouldn’t be anyway? So frustrating.

 

There are hundreds of places in the city that would benefit more from bollards. 

Same reason we take our shoes off at airports. Nonsense security theater originating from one dummy's fragile ego.

I hope we also go back to the original crosswalks after repairing the pavers.

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I’m generally a fan of bollards, but this seems like a stupid waste of money. Why are we putting bollards where regular vehicles shouldn’t be anyway? So frustrating.

 

There are hundreds of places in the city that would benefit more from bollards. 

Probably the same reason that there's a long line of them guarding the entry to Terminal Tower / Tower City. Bollards generally aren't used where cars are supposed to be, as hitting one could easily be fatal to the driver.

 

I agree that safety concerns can sometimes veer into irrational territory, but it's not obvious to me that this was one of those cases. A malevolent person with a vehicle could easily plow through a bunch of people here absent any guarding. The ironic part is that the concern is far more valid now than when it was originally suggested, as the idea has been put into public consciousness many times through these discussions.

 

Also, not to be that guy, but something bad would only need to happen once before we would all wish we had just spent the money on bollards. Let's just get them in and move on to the next problem. 

Has anyone seen what the proposed design is ?   I don't understand what we are actually getting with this price tag .  I agree that the central crosswalk should be removed and the original paths be reinstated.   Lastly I have never understood why the design had to have 4 lanes running through Public Square when one lane in each direction would have sufficed for buses.

 

25 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Probably the same reason that there's a long line of them guarding the entry to Terminal Tower / Tower City. Bollards generally aren't used where cars are supposed to be, as hitting one could easily be fatal to the driver.

 

I agree that safety concerns can sometimes veer into irrational territory, but it's not obvious to me that this was one of those cases. A malevolent person with a vehicle could easily plow through a bunch of people here absent any guarding. The ironic part is that the concern is far more valid now than when it was originally suggested, as the idea has been put into public consciousness many times through these discussions.

 

Also, not to be that guy, but something bad would only need to happen once before we would all wish we had just spent the money on bollards. Let's just get them in and move on to the next problem. 

In front of Terminal Tower makes perfect sense and is a good use of bollards - lots of pedestrians and many vehicles using that section of road. I’m saying that cars aren’t supposed to be in that section of Superior at all. 
 

Also, hitting a bollard will not kill a driver unless they are going WAY too fast AND not wearing a seatbelt. Bollards save lives - pedestrians are at a much higher risk from cars, than cars are from bollards. 

36 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

In front of Terminal Tower makes perfect sense and is a good use of bollards - lots of pedestrians and many vehicles using that section of road. I’m saying that cars aren’t supposed to be in that section of Superior at all. 

They also aren't supposed to jump the curb onto the sidewalk. In either case someone has either fallen asleep at the wheel, or you're dealing with a terrorist.

 

38 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Also, hitting a bollard will not kill a driver unless they are going WAY too fast AND not wearing a seatbelt. Bollards save lives - pedestrians are at a much higher risk from cars, than cars are from bollards. 

Agreed. My point is only that they are generally used after a curb or a buffer space and not as the first line of defense. 

New mural on PS, I personally like it better. 

 

 

Two more trees gone.

 

 

On the plus side at least they are removing stumps and bricking over the dead trees.

 

 

6 hours ago, Ethan said:

New mural on PS, I personally like it better. 

 

 

I'm impressed that you were able to get a camera angle that doesn't show a Ge*rge owned vehicle illegally parked in front of it.

Maybe they can take a cue from the new Skylight Park in Tower City and replace the removed trees with silk ones since they are having trouble with maintenance.   I would love to know why they couldn't replant new trees once the dead ones were removed.   Let's take the money for changing the mural and put it towards purchasing replacement trees.

11 hours ago, dave2017 said:

Maybe they can take a cue from the new Skylight Park in Tower City and replace the removed trees with silk ones since they are having trouble with maintenance.   I would love to know why they couldn't replant new trees once the dead ones were removed.   Let's take the money for changing the mural and put it towards purchasing replacement trees.

Replacing the trees with anything other than a sapling would require removing quite a few pavers and some heavy machinery, so it isn't a simple operation. Certainly doable though.

 

The issue is that the ones that died would also stand a decent chance of dying again for the same reasons. Lack of water for the ones near PS, and I'm guessing lack of sun for the two most recent deaths (they're shaded 90% of the day). I'd want them to figure out why they died and address the root cause before replanting. 

13 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I'd want them to figure out why they died and address the root cause before replanting. 

Thanks @Ethan.  Have we UO contributors ever established whether or not there is an underground irrigation system at PS? One would think that someone in charge in the former "Forest City" would have cracked the code that trees need a consistent water source.

Edited July 17, 20222 yr by DO_Summers
Spelling

PS @Ethan. Can you identify what are the species of the trees that died and were removed?

Edited July 17, 20222 yr by DO_Summers
grammar

2 hours ago, DO_Summers said:

Thanks @Ethan.  Have we UO contributors ever established whether or not there is an underground irrigation system at PS? One would think that someone in charge in the former "Forest City" would have cracked the code that trees need a consistent water source.

There is, before they tiled over the stumps (definitely an improvement) you could see the irrigation system in a few of them. My guess is that it was getting clogged or otherwise not functioning. Or perhaps the water just didn't disperse enough to be useful. I couldn't tell you, but something about them clearly wasn't (isn't) working. 

Cleveland Public Square planners set 2023 for replacing jersey barriers with bollards

by Nick Castele

 

"The jersey barriers at Cleveland’s Public Square may finally come down in 2023. The square’s planners are looking to replace the barriers with bollards and to fix underlying damage on Superior Avenue next year.

 

Representatives from the city, the Group Plan Commission and the nonprofit LAND Studio presented their plans to the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s board of trustees on Tuesday. 

 

Work might not begin until the third quarter of next year, LAND Studio Associate Director Nora Romanoff told Signal Cleveland. Due to supply chain delays, it could take 16 to 20 weeks for an order of bollards to arrive."

 

https://signalcleveland.org/jersey-barriers-out-bollards-in-at-clevelands-public-square-in-2023-planners-say/

Public square to remove jersey barriers, replace with bollard, likely by Q3 2023.

 

https://signalcleveland.org/jersey-barriers-out-bollards-in-at-clevelands-public-square-in-2023-planners-say/

 

Definitely click through to the article to see the plans. Nice picture. Will include "raised pedestrian crosswalk" which I think is the biggest deal in here. Some bollards will be removable for events. 

Good news and I’m like the overall design. I hope they keep it on-brand with the squares overall aesthetic. The bollards absolutely need to be stainless steel. 

Anybody know if the bollards will be movable, as in will they be capable of submerging into the ground and back up when necessary?

Bibb should remove them tomorrow and send Frank the bill for 7 years of this nonsense.  These barriers are more useless than TSA - at least that security theater is rooted in an actual terrorist incident. Frank just ordered these stupid things out of spite.

 

$3.4 million. Are you f*cking me?? Al Qaeda is not blowing up Terminal Tower, Justin. It never was.

 

 

Edited December 9, 20222 yr by TBideon

It would be nice if someday Superior can be closed and the square can be unified.  The FTA can't hold the city hostage forever.

why can't we have two crosswalks like the original plans and the papers on the street actually call for?