1 hour ago, TBideon said:

$3.4 million. Are you f*cking me?? Al Qaeda is not blowing up Terminal Tower, Justin. It never was.

 

The Georges drive through these on the daily. They're a joke.

 

7 hours ago, Luke_S said:

Work might not begin until the third quarter of next year, LAND Studio Associate Director Nora Romanoff told Signal Cleveland. Due to supply chain delays, it could take 16 to 20 weeks for an order of bollards to arrive."

 

Why the heck does everything in this city take so long! Third quarter of next year, what a joke.

Hey, I'm still awaiting the Ferrari dealership in Public Square.

 

That aside, I can't believe anyone with a straight face believes we need bollards. They remind me of sound barriers surrounding freeways nationwide: cosmetically hideous, terribly constructed, overly priced, completely unnecessary.

 

Bollards are bollocks.

 

Edited December 9, 20222 yr by TBideon

Anybody know if the bollards will be movable, as in will they be capable of submerging into the ground and back up when necessary?

“The bollards do the same job that jersey barriers do while being “a more graceful design element,” Romanoff said. Some will be fixed in place, while others with be removable for events on the square, she said.”


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It appears that the decorative granite paver promenades will be removed crossing Superior.  That detail helped unify the original plan and flow of Public Square. I do not understand why those 2 crosswalks can't be restored and have buses idle outside of the area instead of a centralized raised crosswalk. .  I would also like The City, LAND-Studio, and The Group Plan Commission to address the amount of trees that have been removed from the southern half of Public Square. Instead of replacing the diseased/dead trees they just added more pavers.   Does anyone know if the plan addresses other bollards that would allow the added circular stone planters to be removed?  I also hope the planners will address the numerous vehicles that park behind Rebol and show how easily it is for vehicles to enter the pedestrian only areas.   Lastly, this plan should address the lack of public restrooms.   Lets all the issues properly 

 

Edited December 12, 20222 yr by dave2017

I live in West Hollywood, California and a new design was proposed to change a street into an innovative way for design elements to reconfigure. Monolithic planters will serve as bollards when the street is closed and a median to divide traffic when it isn’t. The planters sit on rails that criss-cross the streetscape, allowing them to be moved and realigned. I wish this concept could be used in Cleveland rather than the basic bollards.

 

 

3 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I live in West Hollywood, California

Well lucky you. *envy* lol.  That does look like a cool design.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/12/concrete-barriers-in-public-square-on-track-to-be-replaced-next-year.html

 

"It’s not clear exactly what the project will look like once completed, but general plans call for reserving two lanes for buses, extending the curb and narrowing the roadway to one lane in each direction, according to the release.

The next step will come in January when the Group Plan Commission, the nonprofit group which operates Public Square, will present a “detailed conceptual design” to the city planning commission and the Downtown Flats Design Review Advisory Committee."

 

  I wish this process was more transparent in planning.  

2 hours ago, dave2017 said:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/12/concrete-barriers-in-public-square-on-track-to-be-replaced-next-year.html

 

"It’s not clear exactly what the project will look like once completed, but general plans call for reserving two lanes for buses, extending the curb and narrowing the roadway to one lane in each direction, according to the release.

The next step will come in January when the Group Plan Commission, the nonprofit group which operates Public Square, will present a “detailed conceptual design” to the city planning commission and the Downtown Flats Design Review Advisory Committee."

 

  I wish this process was more transparent in planning.  

I think it’s just…early.  Sounds like they don’t have any design plans yet to be transparent about (besides what’s described), but that will change at Planning/Design Review in January.  

Edited December 21, 20222 yr by brtshrcegr

I was going over the proposed plan that was shown in this article and had another concept that eliminates adding so many bollards that, in my opinion, does not solve the centralized crosswalk problem to funnel people to cross Superior without jaywalking.   I have eliminated all the permanent bollards along Superior by replacing them with 4 additional raised planting beds surrounded by the same raised concrete garden bed details which are dispersed throughout Public Square. These finish at the end of the decorative granite promenades and define the central crosswalk better.   It also provides add'l seating if waiting to cross Superior.   The raised crosswalks across Superior remain . The removable bollards at the centralized crosswalk can be rearranged to the east. and west crosswalk locations when Public Square is closed to vehicular traffic.  Thus eliminating the need for 24.  Superior Ave is still narrowed at the centralized crosswalk by curving the north and south sections from the outer edges of the promenades.   The promenade detail is removed from Superior due to not being able to be maintained by the weight of a bus.   

 

All in all I want to see more greenery added than simply adding hardscape.  The southern section could use more greenery.  I was going to send this off to The City and LAND_Studio as a suggestion

 

Edited December 23, 20222 yr by dave2017

an additional rendering with a proposal of replacing most of the bollards with additional greenery.   I also added a raised bed of trees to remove the circular concrete planters that are  placed in the center of Superior.

12 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

an additional rendering with a proposal of replacing most of the bollards with additional greenery.   I also added a raised bed of trees to remove the circular concrete planters that are  placed in the center of Superior.

The issue I have with this design is that PS is designed to funnel traffic along the "butterfly wing" paths. While having buses go through the center necessarily impacts this original vision, with bollards I can walk freely along the intended path (which is the most natural thing to do whenever the Jersey barriers aren't there). Your solution is very pretty, but it will function exactly like the current Jersey barriers from a pedestrian experience perspective. Personally I'd rather have the freedom to walk through the bollards than more poorly maintained vegetation, but reasonable people can differ on that. 

7 minutes ago, Ethan said:

The issue I have with this design is that PS is designed to funnel traffic along the "butterfly wing" paths. While having buses go through the center necessarily impacts this original vision, with bollards I can walk freely along the intended path (which is the most natural thing to do whenever the Jersey barriers aren't there). Your solution is very pretty, but it will function exactly like the current Jersey barriers from a pedestrian experience perspective. Personally I'd rather have the freedom to walk through the bollards than more poorly maintained vegetation, but reasonable people can differ on that. 

Ethan,  

I agree with you  the "butterfly wing" paths original purpose was to funnel you towards the continuous crosswalks that made the design work. When Mayor Jackson decided to abandon those promenades and make a centralized crosswalk it eliminated that feature.  The Jersey barriers blocked any usage of those pathways and are only available as a visual connect when Superior is closed to traffic.  The promenade path works but supposedly the granite paver detail is being removed because it cannot handle the weight of an idling bus.   The new plans show the central crosswalk will be a raised table design that makes it level with the north and south sections.    While I am not opposed to all bollards I find it difficult to see how jaywalking will not occur on such a wide expanse from the original design. 

 

At the end of the day, I just have concerns about the new proposal and if it really delivers on the best solution.  I do agree that Public Square needs better care of the plant beds. I wish they could at least have replaced the diseased/dead trees in the southern section instead of adding more hardscape.  

47 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

an additional rendering with a proposal of replacing most of the bollards with additional greenery.   I also added a raised bed of trees to remove the circular concrete planters that are  placed in the center of Superior.

I appreciate that you are putting out thoughtful alternatives to the proposal. There are two other things I’d like to see from this revamp:

1. Superior should get its protected bike lines down the middle now. This means it’ll need to be three lanes wide. These two lane proposals are going to cause problems when we get the bike Midway.

2. Pedestrian connectivity on the old Ontario Right of Way in the north half. The grass is often muddy and tends to be completely closed off in the winter. It needs a walkway or two near the middle. I’m sure it could be done in a way that maintains the original butterfly concept.

3 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

While I am not opposed to all bollards I find it difficult to see how jaywalking will not occur on such a wide expanse from the original design. 

I guess the reason I currently prefer the bollards is that they will allow for easy jaywalking. Especially given that only professional drivers are allowed to use this road, I don't see an issue with allowing pedestrians more freedom to walk.

 

3 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I appreciate that you are putting out thoughtful alternatives to the proposal. There are two other things I’d like to see from this revamp:

1. Superior should get its protected bike lines down the middle now. This means it’ll need to be three lanes wide. These two lane proposals are going to cause problems when we get the bike Midway.

2. Pedestrian connectivity on the old Ontario Right of Way in the north half. The grass is often muddy and tends to be completely closed off in the winter. It needs a walkway or two near the middle. I’m sure it could be done in a way that maintains the original butterfly concept.

Both of your suggestions are just moving PS closer to what it was prior to the redesign. The point was to make PS more of a mini park space; I prefer we lean into that. We don't need wider roads and more hardscapes in PS, precisely the opposite. 

If they do go with this new proposal I could see each of the butterfly paths ending at different historical markers, perhaps on pedestals. They could all be angled a bit to help steer pedestrian flow toward the crosswalk. 

 

Here is another layout that I took a further look at.  This plan restores the original use of The Key Bank Promenade which crosses Superior Ave.  The proposed planter/seating benches at 18" tall help to define and make sense of the central crosswalk. It also helps to hide the ramped area to raise that crosswalk to the park grade. 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/01/design-to-remove-and-replace-concrete-barriers-in-public-square-with-bollards-ready-for-city-review.html

 

No better example of Cleveland's utter disregard for creating a pleasing aesthetic than this.  Thank God it is headed toward being corrected.  I know the city has financial challenges but much of the issue is simply the will to do it.

I'm happy they are getting this done finally! Those concrete barriers were so unappealing. 

 

Now only if they could get rid of that stupid bus lane and make the square totally connected I'd be happy. But I know there were federal implications with that for some reason.

22 minutes ago, OldEnough said:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/01/design-to-remove-and-replace-concrete-barriers-in-public-square-with-bollards-ready-for-city-review.html

 

No better example of Cleveland's utter disregard for creating a pleasing aesthetic than this.  Thank God it is headed toward being corrected.  I know the city has financial challenges but much of the issue is simply the will to do it.

Thanks for posting the article. Cross posting here to keep everything in one place. At this point I'm just glad they're fixing it. 

"But in 2017, in response to homeland security concerns that surfaced after the renovation of the square, the city installed the concrete barriers along Superior Avenue..."

 

Now raise your hand if you believe THAT bulls**t?

 

Send Frank the bill for 5 years of this nonsense.

Yes, about 12 million implications. 

Looking at the bollards and the curb extension it looks like the middle crosswalk wont have much space for the buses to roll through. Am I looking at this wrong? It looks like one bus at a time can go through.

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looks like 4 to 2 lanes 48 feet to 26

There is a thread under Completed Projects with regards to Public Square.  I am happy to see that the jersey barriers will be removed. What I think is missing is how all these bollards help to stop pedestrians from jaywalking and only using the designated centralized crosswalk. I put a proposal together that eliminates some of these bollards and replaces them with the concrete raised planter areas that double as seating. This helps to funnel people to the crosswalk and is a nice asset of seating on all sides when Superior Avenue is closed for events.  This plan allows the use of the Key Bank Promenade pathway as designed when Superior Avenue is closed.  

 

I also don't see how they plan to barricade/block Superior Avenue at the east and west for closures. Are add'l removable bollards to be added or rearranged as needed.  Will this plan also address the circular planters that were added for security and safety throughout Public Square and along Superior?  Lastly, I wish this plan addressed replacement of the trees that have died.

Edited January 6, 20232 yr by dave2017

While I look forward to the jersey barriers removal I am not sure these bollards help with safely crossing Superior Ave in the centralized crosswalk.   Yes it addresses the safety of pedestrians behind the bollards but the jersey barriers funneled people to that crosswalk and prevented jaywalkers . This plan doesn't address that aspect 1. Is the central crosswalk needed? 2. Can the Key Bank Promenade crosswalks be used for crossing when Superior is open to buses?  3. Are all the circular concrete planters added in Public Square and on Superior to be removed?  4. How does Superior Ave get blocked off when large events happen ?

33 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

While I look forward to the jersey barriers removal I am not sure these bollards help with safely crossing Superior Ave in the centralized crosswalk.   Yes it addresses the safety of pedestrians behind the bollards but the jersey barriers funneled people to that crosswalk and prevented jaywalkers . This plan doesn't address that aspect 1. Is the central crosswalk needed? 2. Can the Key Bank Promenade crosswalks be used for crossing when Superior is open to buses?  3. Are all the circular concrete planters added in Public Square and on Superior to be removed?  4. How does Superior Ave get blocked off when large events happen ?

I just returned from 10 days in Europe which always makes these kinds of conversations more perplexing.  

Is this what America has become?   Are we THAT afraid of ambulance-chasing lawyers?

 

Amsterdam was a beautiful cacophony of pedestrians, bicycles, buses and trams, all managing to co-exist without jersey barriers or bollards?    Why is it so hard here in the USA? 

 

 

I don't thin jay walking is a serious issue here. 

Its a public square -- people should be able to mill about wherever they feel like. Jaywalking here or anywhere in the city, actually, should not be an issue. We have far bigger problems and we should not have any concern for jaywalking, especially any police actions around it.

i dont advocate jaywalking -- its dangerous, but i am certainly not against it and do it a lot, with care, i hope.

 

anyway, and this is an aside, but there is a serious and perpetual battle regarding who owns the streets and the history of jaywalking that is pretty interesting. if you are into it here is more:

 

a brief jaywalking history:

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/a-brief-history-of-jaywalking-in-nyc

 

an informative jaywalking history in america podcast:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-modern-moloch/

 

to be a little more clear: from a practical standpoint, there aren't  enough busses or pedestrians on superior/PS to be worried about it. (same can bee said about the need for bollards, but w/e)

60 bollards and the Georges will still park on Public Square. 

Americans are just stupid. Clevburger got it right. We overthink and overregulate. Too many different agendas and way too many lawyers. In Europe they mix everything together and guess what? It works and leads to a way more vibrant and organic scene. 

No news, but a nice editorial on the subject from Crains. Basically just talks about how it's nice to have something resembling a functional city government. 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/editorials/crains-editorial-getting-around

The cars parked on PS has always been a bigger issue to me than the barriers and finally there is some discussion on addressing that.  Hopefully it wont cost 3.5 mil.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/news/there-are-plans-to-address-cars-illegally-parking-on-public-square-41250042

why dont they just have a cops walk around the square and issue citations.

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

why dont they just have a cops walk around the square and issue citations.

 

What?  What we need is a plan, developed by an international team of consultants, unveiled through series of community meetings, accessible by web but also handsomely printed in full color and bound, and finally consigned to a nice place on the shelves of the City's municipal offices.

Some movement

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=4284&CASE=DF 2022-072

1 hour ago, freethink said:

Some movement

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=4284&CASE=DF 2022-072

Their conditions are interesting and worthy of discussion.

 

"Raised crosswalk table to be extended to match area of darker paved area in butterfly design; ramped crosswalk taper to extend further in east-west direction to raise grade to crosswalk, but not to impede traffic; east and west sides of center crosswalk to have concave-designed edges to reflect the butterfly design; bollards continue to be studied to extend further than they do to the east and west."

 

I very much approve of extending the crosswalk table. 

Edited January 31, 20232 yr by Ethan

Any movement on this?

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One thing l hate about us is we can't build anything without years of discussion. And then when we finally do build something we have to revise it immediately because either we did something wrong or we didn't budget for maintenance and it's already falling apart. Perpetual talk and perpetual revisions.

So recently I had a random dream. I dreamt that we had an all new glass building similar to the Hilton on Public Square, on 55 PS site but at a better angle facing the Terminal Tower side on the square.

The building had the ability to project images on the glass facade and would be used as a giant movie screen and people would gather on Public Square and watch.

Obviously that is not viable at all but made me wonder why we don't do frequent movie nights on the square during the summer or something similar.

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Any news on this?


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Construction is due to start before the end of the year, shouldn’t be too much longer. 

I thought the jersey barriers were supposed to be gone three months ago. What's the deal?

Supplier delay. I'm not sure if it is the bollard manufacturer or some other key component, but the manufacturer had some major issue. Should be ready go start in spring 2024. 

I wish The Superior Midway Bike Lanes would be continued through Public Square rathe than the bollard plan

Saddened to hear that the jersey barriers will remain for almost a year after their removal was approved. At this point this plan should be held until they could incorporate The Superior Midway bike lanes through Public Square. Lets get this plan done correctly

 

https://signalcleveland.org/mayor-justin-bibb-on-taking-down-public-square-jersey-barriers-it-will-get-done/

 

Mayor Justin Bibb on taking down Public Square jersey barriers: ‘It will get done’

In an interview with Signal Cleveland, Bibb also took stock of police morale and major legislative efforts before City Council.

by Nick CasteleDecember 7, 2023

 

The jersey barriers may continue eclipsing the view at Public Square through the April 2024 total solar eclipse. A City Hall spokesperson said construction likely will not start until after the astronomical event, which is expected to draw big crowds to Cleveland. 

Edited December 22, 20231 yr by dave2017

One thing I can't stand about life in present day America is the absolutely ridiculous amount of time it takes to get anything done due to the bureaucracy. It's embarrassing.

Also the jersey barriers are useless, I don't understand why the admin has entertained the Jackson admin's idea that it's preventing some crazy terrorist plot. Cars drive on PS a lot with the barriers up. 

 

If the reasoning for keeping the barriers up is 'safety' maybe we should put barriers up in other places where pedestrians are (bike lanes, busy sidewalks, etc. etc.). Maybe that makes too much sense, though.

Downtown Cleveland Inc is conducting a Public Square Connectivity & Public Realm Survey 

 

Quote

Downtown Cleveland Inc. are leading the Public Square Mobility Study to help recommend and implement solutions related to pedestrians, cyclists, transit, curb management, and traffic flow to increase the quality of life for residents and visitors. This plan will pull together various planning efforts in Public Square, including IlluminateCLE, the Portland Loo installation, and the jersey barrier replacement/bollard project. The plan will also lay the groundwork for future capital improvements, presenting a cohesive, forward-looking vision with all relevant nonprofit, private, and public partners.