January 7, 200916 yr Those concerts on the square would be great. They happen once in a great while but I'd love to see them more regularly. Is there really a chance that the mall would collapse under a bunch of people? If so, things are worse off than I thought. Maybe we're just beginning to mourn the Flats. It looked like the most recent FEB plans involved a sizeable gathering space, so one day we can at least have festivals again down there... if management approves... Seems there were many more festivals and party events downtown in the past -- "Parties in the Park", Taste of Cleveland, Rib Burn-Off and the biggest of all was Riverfest in the Flats. Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns. Where did you hear that? those things moved because they outgrew the space and sponsorship deals. If you have any facts that "structural" issues played into those concerns please provide a source. Here you go MTS, et. al. http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX/AAI-8095 Festivals were indeed moved (at least in part) from the mall due to structural concerns. Now back on topic. you're reaching as you can't even open that link. and being below code does not mean structural not able to support. Since there are no FACTS to prove this. OK im over this BS. back to the discussion.
January 7, 200916 yr Jeez, all these posts are going to be deleted anyway. Can't you click on a hyperlink? "City seeking substitute for Mall C rib cook-off Plain Dealer 11 Dec, 1987, pg. 01 sec. B" due to "City building chief unaware of study on Mall C weakness " among other realted articles from the day. I don't need to read them. I remember this being the reason they moved the festivals.
January 7, 200916 yr This quote has nothing to with the current state of the center. Its just saying that a new building would be able to hold large crowds. What? It has everything to do with the current state of the center. Either it can hold an orchestra concert or it can't, and that quote tells me it can't. It flat out says the current mall isn't "sturdy enough."
January 12, 200916 yr Seems there were many more festivals and party events downtown in the past -- "Parties in the Park", Taste of Cleveland, Rib Burn-Off and the biggest of all was Riverfest in the Flats. Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns. Most if not all of these events that still exist have been moved out of downtown proper which changes the character of the events quite a bit, IMO. I used to attend some of these when they were downtown but no longer since they moved to places like Tower City amphitheatre. Just adding more lunchtime or Thursday/Friday evening concerts on PS would be a nice addition to the programming and fairly easy to do. Right on. I grew up with events like these and miss them dearly, especially Riverfest. Things like the Rib Cook-Off, Taste of Cleveland can be done in Public Square instead of the Amphitheatre. As for the roads, Can traffic be limited to only the buses cutting through and leaving the cars to go around the outside? Or can something be done similar to that of the "traffic circle" in D.C., or in this case square?
January 12, 200916 yr Speaking of public square. If you are not familiar with the website cool history of cleveland, check it out. http://coolhistoryofcleveland.blog.com/4384224/ But below is another example of cleveland not working together and opportunities lost. I mean how cool would this have looked on ps. (from the website) But the most amazing City Hall was the one never built. In 1895 the voters of Cleveland approved a Beaux Arts designed building to be built on the northern quadrants of Public Square. The most eloquent component of its design was the enormous arch spanning over Ontario Avenue for street cars to pass through safely. It was a most amazing and jaw-dropping design. Unfortunately, after one week of the official ground-breaking the protests from numerous Clevelanders (after voting approval on the project), it was decided not to continue and Cleveland had to wait another twenty years before it received a new City Hall.
January 13, 200916 yr That'd be really cool to have on Public Square if we didn't want to have a Public Square anymore.
January 13, 200916 yr If that was built, we may have never had the group plan. It is a cool building, though.
January 13, 200916 yr I'm not sure if anyone here's been to Denver, but they've got these great bus hubs that are underground. They work just like a subway station with access for busses from opposite corners. I wonder if one of these would work well under one of the quadrants, probably the SW as it's closest to the Terminal: That way we could remove ALL traffic from the inside of the square and turn it into one large park. I really think the park would do well as one large square. The part that's really boggling me is what it would serve as on a daily basis. There's not really a way to incorporate street level retail around the square like Fountain Square in Cincinnati or Market Square in Pittsburgh. So I think it just needs to be a tranquil resting spot with lots of trees, elevation changes, street preacher pulpits, and an amphitheater for the occasional event. I would suggest putting up a large LCD board to create the living room aesthetic like in Fountain square, but you've already got that in Playhouse Square. Just some thoughts, I know that there's funding for none of it...but we can dream.
January 13, 200916 yr The part that's really boggling me is what it would serve as on a daily basis. There's not really a way to incorporate street level retail around the square like Fountain Square in Cincinnati or Market Square in Pittsburgh. So I think it just needs to be a tranquil resting spot with lots of trees, elevation changes, street preacher pulpits, and an amphitheater for the occasional event. Just some thoughts, I know that there's funding for none of it...but we can dream. I've often thought it would make a really cool farmers'/local artists' market.
January 13, 200916 yr ^I would love something like this for public square, both to allow the quadrants to be unified and also to improve the transit waiting environment for all of the non-HealthLine buses that serve Public Square now. Even the departure/arrival board at a hub (like in your photo) would be an awesome addition. I know it's uncool in planning circles, but it might even be swell to have a main bus station underground be part of an underground network that connects Tower City to a rebuilt convention center... This could address the concerns about connecting conventioneers to Tower City (a much better transit hub than the waterfront line) and other hotels. Obviously not on the table though.
January 13, 200916 yr ^I would love something like this for public square, both to allow the quadrants to be unified and also to improve the transit waiting environment for all of the non-HealthLine buses that serve Public Square now. Even the departure/arrival board at a hub (like in your photo) would be an awesome addition. I know it's uncool in planning circles, but it might even be swell to have a main bus station underground be part of an underground network that connects Tower City to a rebuilt convention center... This could address the concerns about connecting conventioneers to Tower City (a much better transit hub than the waterfront line) and other hotels. Obviously not on the table though. Maybe this would be a better discussion for another thread, but I like that idea better than having two separate transit centers for the East- and Westsides. The current hub-and-spoke model allows passengers to easily transfer from a bus coming from one side of town to the other, and I'm not sure how that would work with two different transit centers.
January 13, 200916 yr ^I would love something like this for public square, both to allow the quadrants to be unified and also to improve the transit waiting environment for all of the non-HealthLine buses that serve Public Square now. Even the departure/arrival board at a hub (like in your photo) would be an awesome addition. I know it's uncool in planning circles, but it might even be swell to have a main bus station underground be part of an underground network that connects Tower City to a rebuilt convention center... This could address the concerns about connecting conventioneers to Tower City (a much better transit hub than the waterfront line) and other hotels. Obviously not on the table though. Maybe this would be a better discussion for another thread, but I like that idea better than having two separate transit centers for the East- and Westsides. The current hub-and-spoke model allows passengers to easily transfer from a bus coming from one side of town to the other, and I'm not sure how that would work with two different transit centers. hub and spoke is so dated. People want point to point service, h&s doen't work with our lifestyles.
June 15, 200916 yr There is a recent RFQ dated 5/01/09 for the redesign of Public Square on the ParkWorks web site. Proposals are due 6/29/09: "This RFQ seeks a design team to address the scale, accessibility, connectivity and feel of Public Square. The heart of the City of Cleveland should be a destination and with thoughtful and sustainable design, this is an entirely attainable goal. This RFQ is being issued to select a suitably qualified professional team to prepare design and construction documents for the rehabilitation of Public Square" Here is a link to the whole PDF http://parkworks.org/pdf/Public-Square-RFQ.pdf
June 15, 200916 yr I read the few first paragraphs of that and skimmed the rest. Does anyone agree with the problems listed? That's public square is not friendly to pedestrians? That the quadrants are disconnected from each other? Personally, I think the main problem has more to do with you can't enjoy public square without being bothered. Someone invariably asks you for a bus ticket, money, or wants you to sign a petition. If the intent of public square is to have a public space which people can enjoy during the day, you don't want to be harassed while trying to enjoy it.
June 15, 200916 yr That fountain in the NE quadrant is at least running now, but it's pretty feeble and I doubt that's how it's supposed to look-- a fetid pool with a minor gurgle in the middle. It doesn't matter how we redesign this space if it's not going to be kept up, including security from harassment. There are usually police nearby during the day, showing girls their horses, but they rarely respond to harassment complaints and they don't seem to be looking for it.
June 15, 200916 yr Thanks, free think for posting the info about the RFP. Does anyone agree with the problems listed? That's public square is not friendly to pedestrians? That the quadrants are disconnected from each other? Yes, I generally agree with the RFP. For sure, better maintenance and somehow addressing the panhandlers are important to making PS enjoyable. But even with those problems solved, you're left with these unrelated square little traffic islands that are pretty much useless for anything but eating your own lunch on a bench. The land area of public square is large, and would permit so much more than that if it were unified.
June 15, 200916 yr I like the timeline on page 5. Also, I think what hurts the square is lack of retail along it. As much as I enjoy the height of Key Tower and 200 Public Square, they don't add anything to the street feel. Whatever gets built on the public lot along public square...MUST have 1st floor retail. The feel would improve immensely adding to the Park Building, Cadallac Ranch, and Tower City provide already. Lastly, I like bricks...walkways, streets??, and intersections add another great element to a city core.
June 15, 200916 yr I agree with strap whole heartedly... and perhaps we can have clean and safe start moving into publ.... oh... wait...
June 15, 200916 yr It was discussed earlier in this thread about making it a roundabout, which would allow for the 4 quadrants to be closed off. That would then enable this much larger space to be turned into something much more pedestrian-friendly. Other ideas could include a farmers market and the ice rink in the Winter. I also think they should add a lot more trees.
June 15, 200916 yr ^looks like according to their now released traffic study, they are ok with closing down superior to all but public transit traffic, and closing down ontario with the exception of rush hour. Personally, I'd still prefer to have it closed to vehicular traffic at all times, but this is certainly a step in the right direction. I also really hope that with the addition of the east and west (not sure of the timeline of this one) transit stations, public square can stop feeling like one giant bus stop.
June 15, 200916 yr Tell me why the Union folks picketing on Public Square about Cadillac Ranch and other points are allowed to PARK their cars around the Soldiers & Sailors Monument. I know some of the cars are from the people doing rehab work in the building but there are a few who are the union folks cars.
June 16, 200915 yr NE quadrant fountain update: The water has been turned off again, and weeds have sprung up among the basin bricks with characteristic efficiency. What an embarrassment.
June 16, 200915 yr Watch out, the unions will just sue the city again. That is a legitimate concern, and I bet the guys picketing the Cadillac Ranch would rat us out right away. How dare you clean and weed the square! Weeds are Stage 2 of the problem anyway. Stage 1 is the fountain doesn't even work. That we do need the city to fix. Regardless, theguv is right and I will pull at least one weed out of it on my way out this evening.
June 16, 200915 yr ^On a similar (yet un-public square related) note, workers from the city were working on the fountain at Settlers Landing Park this morning. I walked by this evening and the fountain was wet, but not on. What's this cities deal with fountains?
June 16, 200915 yr theguv is right and I will pull at least one weed out of it on my way out this evening. Done, and it was easy. Gonna take a while to really make a dent though. I will continue to pull weeds from public square each weekday. This ship's not going down with me on it. When I'm done, at least the bottom of this fountain will make the grade.
June 17, 200915 yr i will plan to pull some weeds this thursday evening, round 8pm, before heading out on a weekly bicycle ride that meets every thurs on the SW quad of public square.
June 17, 200915 yr Something like this: The city maintenence union wouldn't clean up the square, or not without overtime or something. I don't remember. So the city paid the Downtown Cleveland Alliance to do it. The union then sued, claiming the city had no right to have any work done if they weren't doing it-- and the union won.
June 17, 200915 yr The fountain at the NE quadrant was on a few weeks ago at a very low level compared to what its capabilities are. The fountain at Mall A has had low water flow lately as well. Don't understand what the problem is.
June 17, 200915 yr I'm not following the union jokes? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7355.0/msg,286326.html
June 17, 200915 yr So wait is it just P Something like this: The city maintenence union wouldn't clean up the square, or not without overtime or something. I don't remember. So the city paid the Downtown Cleveland Alliance to do it. The union then sued, claiming the city had no right to have any work done if they weren't doing it-- and the union won. So is it just Public square that downtown Alliance workers are unable to clea?
July 2, 200915 yr So what does anyone think of the fake Victorian lightpoles around the Solders and Sailors monument? Must have just been installed. I've written here about the new lights along Euclid; I had been told there would some more traditional lights but they never materialized (would have been nice around Playhouse Square, for example). The Square is not exactly the Corridor but they are different - actually a very trendy design and not that close to what they would have done, say, around 1900. They're also a whole different type than the others downtown. The globes that were there actually had sort of an 1890s affinity - wonder how old [they] were.... Of course the new fixtures have very modern-looking bulbs, etc. They're very bright. So what does everyone think? No, I don't have a camera here to post photos. See them for yourselves; just in time for the concert.
July 2, 200915 yr Will this open? I knew there were some globes on the monument but I don't recall how many. Did anyone here know new lights would be installed? I guess this is partially a security thing. Someone here had written they were so certain the lights along the Huron Mall would be replaced but many months later they have not.
July 3, 200915 yr My letter to the editor to the PD that actually got printed(not that anyone from the city really cares), The idea has been mentioned every now and then about making public square a true unified square rather than four separate quadrants sliced by busy roadways. After hearing that New York City is stopping vehicle traffic in Times Square to make it pedestrian friendly, I wondered why we can't do that with our Public Square. I am not sure what the City of Cleveland's excuse could be. Traffic surely couldn't be the reason because we have one of the lightest rush hours among larger cities, and it definitely pales in comparison to Times Square. I am sure that the new RTA buses are capable of going around the square rather than needing to plow right through the middle of it. Public Square, if unified into one park, would truly be an urban gathering space because it is the only downtown open area placed in the middle of business, entertainment, and residential areas (unlike the "Mall" parks). NYC is monitoring this concept on a trail basis through the end of the year to see if this is a viable long term plan. I think Cleveland should try this as well. Make Public Square a city center that can be showcased and enjoyed rather than a place to dodge cars and buses.
July 3, 200915 yr ^Supposedly they can't shut down public square completely because Superior is a federal route and we'd have to give back millions or something like that. I think that just about everyone but RTA would love to shut down the Square. I don't know, maybe it still could happen.
July 3, 200915 yr Seems to me there are plenty of routes that overlap with each other,so don't actualy shut the route down, just reroute it around the square to the other side and continue the route as usual. There seems to be more to this because it just seems so simple...
July 4, 200915 yr Hey.. Just getting back to some of the earlier posts about the fountains on the square.... I have written to some people about this issue. These are among the simplest things that can be done to keep the spirit up on the square. The city workers are paid by the people and part of the job in maintaining the square is seeing that the fountains (or anywhere where there is a fountain for that matter) get maintained. Since supposedly, no one is allowed to do this work except them...How convenient is it for them to slack off on this particular job with no challenge. All they need to do is hide behind the shield of the union. Sooo, not how it is intended to be. As I said, these are little things that should be done and not doing them, says a lot about management. Same with the priority of safety on the square. No matter how well this can be designed...if the little follow up things are not kept after...it will remain not as welcoming as it should be. Littering, loitering, etc... Gotta keep after that. I have also seen police not do a darn thing when obviously they should have been out there breaking something up. (what went on is another story) These are reasons the Alliance was born. It is about taking back this space. One other note, although not totally square related...is my issue on the nearby Higbee Building where all the flag poles on Ontario jut out over the walks (another area needing better night lighting and security) A simple thing that can be done to make a noteworthy difference and add a festive appearance...would be to get some flags up again, perhaps representing the many nationalities of the region...or even sell a flag for a classy designed advertisement. (nothing tacky..as advertising can be tacky in its own right) I don't know how many times I have written about doing little things that can make a big difference. I even suggested flags at the top of the Veterans Bridge. The Harbour Bridge in Sydney has them...similar bridge design..and it adds some flair to the city. Anyway, sorry but when the fountains run dry..it sends a message something else is running dry. Not good. Lastly, I envision all traffic routing around the outer perimeter of the square.. round-a-bout style would be good.
July 4, 200915 yr Hey.. Just getting back to some of the earlier posts about the fountains on the square.... I have written to some people about this issue. These are among the simplest things that can be done to keep the spirit up on the square. The city workers are paid by the people and part of the job in maintaining the square is seeing that the fountains (or anywhere where there is a fountain for that matter) get maintained. Since supposedly, no one is allowed to do this work except them...How convenient is it for them to slack off on this particular job with no challenge. All they need to do is hide behind the shield of the union. Sooo, not how it is intended to be. As I said, these are little things that should be done and not doing them, says a lot about management. Same with the priority of safety on the square. No matter how well this can be designed...if the little follow up things are not kept after...it will remain not as welcoming as it should be. Littering, loitering, etc... Gotta keep after that. I have also seen police not do a darn thing when obviously they should have been out there breaking something up. (what went on is another story) These are reasons the Alliance was born. It is about taking back this space. One other note, although not totally square related...is my issue on the nearby Higbee Building where all the flag poles on Ontario jut out over the walks (another area needing better night lighting and security) A simple thing that can be done to make a noteworthy difference and add a festive appearance...would be to get some flags up again, perhaps representing the many nationalities of the region...or even sell a flag for a classy designed advertisement. (nothing tacky..as advertising can be tacky in its own right) I don't know how many times I have written about doing little things that can make a big difference. I even suggested flags at the top of the Veterans Bridge. The Harbour Bridge in Sydney has them...similar bridge design..and it adds some flair to the city. Anyway, sorry but when the fountains run dry..it sends a message something else is running dry. Not good. Lastly, I envision all traffic routing around the outer perimeter of the square.. round-a-bout style would be good. Wow I was just thinking on Thursday night have well a round about would work around the square. Hopefully the consultants on the Square Redevelopment Project suggest this.
July 4, 200915 yr My letter to the editor to the PD that actually got printed(not that anyone from the city really cares), The idea has been mentioned every now and then about making public square a true unified square rather than four separate quadrants sliced by busy roadways. After hearing that New York City is stopping vehicle traffic in Times Square to make it pedestrian friendly, I wondered why we can't do that with our Public Square. I am not sure what the City of Cleveland's excuse could be. Traffic surely couldn't be the reason because we have one of the lightest rush hours among larger cities, and it definitely pales in comparison to Times Square. I am sure that the new RTA buses are capable of going around the square rather than needing to plow right through the middle of it. Public Square, if unified into one park, would truly be an urban gathering space because it is the only downtown open area placed in the middle of business, entertainment, and residential areas (unlike the "Mall" parks). NYC is monitoring this concept on a trail basis through the end of the year to see if this is a viable long term plan. I think Cleveland should try this as well. Make Public Square a city center that can be showcased and enjoyed rather than a place to dodge cars and buses. When was your article published?
July 5, 200915 yr Good letter. Once people get the hang of, and understand the benefits of round-a-bouts, most of the time, they'll prefer them. At least I do. They save energy, wrecks, and avoid congestion. I can envision a whole center square park with only roads going around the perimeter... (such as Lincoln Park in Tremont--Courthouse Square, over in Warren) I'm no planner/designer...but maybe they could be curved of course to avoid right angles... Then maybe we'd have to change the name to "Public Circle" For now, I just wish it could be taken care of as good as it can be so it doesn't become "Public Scare" It would be good to send that letter to the planning commission.
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