The malls and public square and being considered together by the group plan commission

I feel like the malls have more potential since they are not a transit hub

Hmmm.... I feel the exact opposite for the same reason.

I feel like the malls are close enough to public square for the public transportation side of things but you dont get all of the people just waiting and getting in the way. Unless like the design that everyone liked where the park was above and the busses were below but that just seems to be way more expensive then redesigning the malls into something cool

I spent the day in Bryant Park in NYC today.

 

It is a flat out amazing public space. It's got mass transit, two outdoor bars/cafes with boardwalk seating, microbrew on tap, ping pong, bocce ball, live music, grassy areas and tons of tables and chairs for meeting up or simply for enjoying the surroundings.

 

In my opinion it's everything that Public Square (and the mall) should be but isn't.

 

I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel to remake Public Square. Those through streets must be dealt with, sure. But something as simple as a few kiosks selling hot chocolate or such would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

Anyway, here are a few pics if you're not familiar:

 

http://www.ny-photos.com/bryant_park.html

I understand they did much to clean up Bryant Park in the past couple of decades.  I recall visiting New York in the mid 80's and walking through Bryant for the first time and being shocked.  In the heart of Manhattan, right next to one of the world's greatest library, was an open drug market.  It was the middle of the day and me and my female partner were openly solicited to purchase drugs by at least a dozen guys.  They did nothing to hide the fact they were selling.  I remember thinking "where the hell are the cops"?  They could scope them up like acorns from the trees.  It really was not a pleasant experience.

 

I am glad New York saw what it had and has turned it back into a jewel (at a cost of millions I am sure).

^^Bryant Park has come a long way since the 70's. It used to be infested with drug dealers and few people would even walk through it, much less sit there leisurely. I think it was about 15 years ago (?) or so that they cleaned it up and slightly re-designed it (always a controversial thing to do in NY!), but it works okay. Likewise with Union Square @14th St (which you should also check out if you're still in NYC), which used to be a dangerous no-man's land (even in the middle of the day) and is now a bustling destination both commercially and socially (maybe a little too much so for my tastes :wink:), with retailers anxious to acquire a spot there despite the iffy economy (there's a 24-hour Best Buy store). It has perhaps an even greater advantage than Bryant Park, being a major transfer point with many subway lines running underneath.

I believe a lot of the clean-up of those NYC parks started when a certain no-nonsense, law-and-order mayor took office there.

 

 

And now that we are on the subject of politics..............a friendly reminder to get back on topic.

 

I believe a lot of the clean-up of those NYC parks started when a certain no-nonsense, law-and-order mayor took office there.

 

Bryant Park had nothing to do with Giuliani. What turned it around was actually a very simple thing (and years before that guy).  The park was made the same level as the sidewalk. It used be a few steps down--just a little bit lower--but it was entering a different world.

I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel to remake Public Square. Those through streets must be dealt with, sure. But something as simple as a few kiosks selling hot chocolate or such would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

 

No, we really don't need to re-invent the wheel. Good point. For starters and right now (easier said than done)....Just clean up the square...enforce laws....keep the troublesome money beggars away...litterers, loiterers, etc....clean it as best it can be...offer more events there and we essentially already have the same thing as the park you describe, not as fancy.

 

The more I look at this, and although I really do like the re-design ideas, (especially connecting it and creating a real pedestrian area without being dissected with roads) it is essential to...again, get the basics right first, that we are not currently doing. Let's imagine a re-designed square right now. With the currant stewardship climate and transitional clientele, what do you suppose the place would look like in a matter of time? I see a nicely re-designed square that is abused.

 

The square, as far as condition is not that bad.. The S.E. Quadrant... really nice... N.E. Quadrant....  good... N.W. Quadrant....fair...the S.W. quadrant...the first thing people see when exiting T.T. is a sewer....and IMO, NOT because of the design so much as it is the lack of attention to litter, the loitering, the panhandling, etc. It just does not exude a welcoming and safe feel. If all this was curbed....  and events were infused on it more like the farm market or a jazz concert....the place becomes much better. I just don't see how a re-design, unless the transit is re-located (taboo to suggest that to many, I know)  is suddenly going to alter the habits of those who currently occupy it...and those responsible for its upkeep.

 

Let's use the current square as a "practice" scene first. make it the best it can be by doing some of what is suggested above...offer the events to get more bodies there besides those waiting for a bus or those littering plastic cigar tips all over.or those loitering for no other reason than to loiter and maybe ask for money. Them when we can be successful with this...lets graduate to the next stage.

 

This is taking a resourceful approach. Make it the best it can be without having to spend 5 lifetimes times a million of revenue..and get the basics right before jumping to the grandiose, or we risk a grandiose flop, perhaps.

 

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion so if anyone disagrees, that's fine....but there is no need to poo poo, get personal and/or smart off about it and accuse it as being "anti-Cleveland" or some other mistaken notion.   :-D

I believe a lot of the clean-up of those NYC parks started when a certain no-nonsense, law-and-order mayor took office there.

 

 

Politics or not it is about getting things done. 

I believe a lot of the clean-up of those NYC parks started when a certain no-nonsense, law-and-order mayor took office there.

 

 

Politics or not it is about getting things done. 

 

 

I am afraid it is about politics and you know what I would like to say that I am not allowed to say. 

Just so we can put this off-topic bit to rest, the renaissance of Bryant Park started well before Giuliani, when local corporate stakeholders got together in the early 1980s...

 

Anyway, politics will definitely play a role in getting enough people on board for some street closures in Public Square.  I don't even know if there's consensus on this board about that.  I think it's critical for making the square a marquee space, but I know lots of other folks disagree.  Beyond that, I agree with surfohio, it wouldn't take a revolutionary design to make the place 1000 time better than what it is today.  Lack of money will be an issue,  but the Group Plan Commission will hopefully come up with something there (we'll see). 

 

One can also imagine a very inexpensive intermediate step though. As lots of people here already know, NYC has done amazing things on the cheap just by spraying gravely paint on newly pedestrianized roadways, using big rocks to separate them from car traffic and dropping down some street furniture. How much would it take to start slow, by closing Ontario through the square, for example, on summer weekdays from 10am to 3pm, put down a bunch of movable furniture and set up some decent food stalls? 

^ Right on. They can lease out sections of the square to businesses and maybe sell some ad space for revenues. Create more stakeholders who have an interest in keeping the place clean and safe.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention there are also fireplaces at the Bryant Park "porches" for year round use. And I must say it again...they sell their own Bryant Park microbrew on tap!!

 

We could really use this. Cleveland deserves it.

 

http://www.wichcraftnyc.com/porch

^ Wow, that looks really awesome.

 

A good design can help, but I think the best way to achieve that for Public Square and the Malls is "programming."  It doesn't have to be something formal like the City or DCA or anything like that, but things like Critical Mass and Yoga for the Masses have a way of getting people to come hang out in our public spaces.  The right design will encourage and accommodate those spontaneous gatherings, as well as more formal rallies, etc.  When you don't have a huge population or a culture of using downtown spaces, good programming really helps.  Hopefully, we'll eventually get to a point where the space will be a draw in itself, but we have to start somewhere.

I understand they did much to clean up Bryant Park in the past couple of decades.  I recall visiting New York in the mid 80's and walking through Bryant for the first time and being shocked.  In the heart of Manhattan, right next to one of the world's greatest library, was an open drug market.  It was the middle of the day and me and my female partner were openly solicited to purchase drugs by at least a dozen guys.  They did nothing to hide the fact they were selling.  I remember thinking "where the hell are the cops"?  They could scope them up like acorns from the trees.  It really was not a pleasant experience.

 

I am glad New York saw what it had and has turned it back into a jewel (at a cost of millions I am sure).

 

The Mayor at that time was Ed Koch.  He was a disaster.  New York was becoming unlivable and corporations were leaving Manhattan right and left.  Garbage on the streets everywhere.  Punks and ner'dowells, windshield washer people running amok.  you couldn't walk down the street without someone hastling you or worse.  Sam Goode was mayor of Philly at the same time.  Same thing.  New mayors in both cities led their renaissances. 

^Hmmm...would any of that be considered slightly off topic.

I believe the term is ne'er-do-wells, tedolph.  And public square was crap long before Frank Jackson took office (there, I made reading between the lines of your post that much easier for those who don't know you that well).

Enough.  This is not a politics thread.  Anyone who tries to make it one will be spending some time off.

I understand they did much to clean up Bryant Park in the past couple of decades.  I recall visiting New York in the mid 80's and walking through Bryant for the first time and being shocked.  In the heart of Manhattan, right next to one of the world's greatest library, was an open drug market.  It was the middle of the day and me and my female partner were openly solicited to purchase drugs by at least a dozen guys.  They did nothing to hide the fact they were selling.  I remember thinking "where the hell are the cops"?  They could scope them up like acorns from the trees.  It really was not a pleasant experience.

 

I am glad New York saw what it had and has turned it back into a jewel (at a cost of millions I am sure).

 

The Mayor at that time was Ed Koch.  He was a disaster.  New York was becoming unlivable and corporations were leaving Manhattan right and left.  Garbage on the streets everywhere.  Punks and ner'dowells, windshield washer people running amok.  you couldn't walk down the street without someone hastling you or worse.  Sam Goode was mayor of Philly at the same time.  Same thing.  New mayors in both cities led their renaissances. 

yeah, I miss those days! At least apartments were affordable back then :wink: Seriously though, New York has become way too homogenized, to say the least.

 

back on topic: it's been literally decades since I was in downtown Cleveland, and I haven't read all 23 pages of this discussion, but has anyone ever proposed a farmer's market on Public Square? This was insturmental in reinvigorating Union Square in NY, and it started back in the bad old pre-gentrification days, originally just on Saturdays, but now several days a week. All the celebrity chefs buy produce there and it's a big draw for people from all over.

There is one now

I was sitting in a Downtown Cleveland Alliance city advocates meeting a few months back when RTA CEO Joe Calabrese came to speak to the group.  He hates all three of the Public Square redesigns.  Anything that would make RTA have to move one stop or change one route or cause disruption in service for one day, he is against.  His opinion is that Public Square has been and always should be a transportation hub.

 

The biggest problem in redeveloping Public Square is that it is a major transfer hub for RTA.  The stereotype of Public Square (rightly or wrongly, perception is reality) is that it's where hoodlums hang out while waiting for the bus.  And it's dirty because for some reason, a lot of the people waiting for the bus seem (again, rightly or wrongly) to have little respect for their surroundings and treat the sidewalks like their own personal trash dumps.

 

Now, if you could increase the people hanging out in Public Square ten-fold while keeping the hoodlum population at its current level, it might not seem as bad.  But unfortunately, I'm skeptical this could be done.  I think the four quadrants make it difficult and I just don't see those four quadrants changing because Calabrese is going to bitch and moan if anyone tries to change it, saying it's going to bring RTA to a screeching halt.  Why our PUBLIC Square should be held hostage to one organization, I don't know, but due to political BS, that's the way it is.

 

BTW, does anyone know how RTA is funded or who they report to?  What percentage of their revenue comes from fares and what are the other sources?

Can't disagree with what you've said there.

Hoodlums waiting for buses.  Please.  Disrespectful kids I will grant you which exist all over the county, (the state, nation, world) not just on public square.

^^ Well stated JBorger.

 

 

And in reply to ^... While definitely granted.... Such seems to be the catch all excuse for accepting slack in Cleveland. Personally, I am well aware of this issue existing in other places, but really don't have the time to clean up other places messes. So, as for my opinions on this thread, I'm focusing on what we can do in Cleveland to make this situation improve, hence why I point it out HERE.....rather than downplaying or excusing it with the handy... "Well, these issues are not exclusive to Cleveland" or something to that nature.

 

Most here on the forum who point out the described issues are intelligent enough to KNOW and acknowledge that...But are focusing on what we can do to improve the issue, rather than simply accepting status quo.

 

And as JBorger indicated...right or wrong, the perception prevails and this needs to change...and attracting more people there could basically, for lack of a better way to put it, "dilute" the obvious prevailing often perceived current situation of the scene there. But, I am not so sold on the idea that a re-design will necessarily change the current described scene unless the stops are moved. If you read the history... many Clevelanders were adamant and opposed about turning their public green into a transit hub or getting it overly commercialized. It seems as though transit has had its way with the public's square for too long.

 

IMO, It is almost a chicken or egg scenario... Do you do a total re-design in the hope that it will be suddenly made attractive to attract those extra crowds/events and change the feel...OR, do you start with basics and make it more attractive to attract the people and more events....first who will use it for more than waiting for a ride, or loitering, etc.

 

This can perhaps begin to happen with more presence of walking security and maybe more aggressive effort on the city's part to curb the litter which gets out of hand.

 

 

If the re-design does not entail re-locating bus stops in light of the current and often perceived transitional clientele who frequents it the most, the unattractive issues will still remain even in a place that it is totally new.

 

So, in essence we build a new park for loiters, etc..to hang around ...around the perimeters. The current perception, right or wrong is killing the square and the point is not that it is a right or wrong perception...rather, that it IS a common perception.

 

I am near it quite often, walk through it.. (really, I do!) and at various hours and in my opinion, there is a fair bit of truth to these perceptions that some may see as inaccurate. I am trying to put it lightly, but my unedited side says... "Hell yes their is truth the the perceptions!")

 

I have people watched there for moments on end......and I would lay a safe bet that many who are hanging around there are not waiting for a bus, at least not all the ones on a daily basis who ask me for money.... Or say.. "excuse me sir..can I ask a small favor" and I reply.. "No you may not". They're just loitering and hanging out, panhandling ...and the inconvenient truth is that this is bad for businesses/leisure tourists/people with families... because it is a potential turn off because it is in-your-face and imposing. Ask anyone who operates a business downtown if they want this right in front of their door.

 

As a one time small shopkeeper, I would NOT want this going on in front of my door. So let's admit it has issues that need to be fixed and the solutions may not be popular for some. But that is what compromise is all about...reaching a workable and mutually satisfying medium.

 

This is all simply my personal perception of this square's current condition and how it can be improved from a perception standpoint. I can honestly say that when I have guests here from out of town, I try and avoid the S.W. Quadrant and/or walking near all the bus stops where most of the litter and other issues accumulate. Its not the first impression I want someone to have of the city.

This also becomes a problem infront of the Terminal Tower

Are there crime issues on Public Square?  Fights?  Pick-pockets?  Is there even such a thing as 'loitering' in a "public square"?  Isn't that kind of the idea?  Are we going to start complaining next that 'they' are walking on the sidewalks?

It's not a perception...it's the reality for anyone who goes through there on a daily basis.  The most direct route to/from work for me involves going directly through public square.  When I was walking, I started avoiding public square just to avoid the hassle of being bothered for money or running into people who just don't give a sh!t about their surroundings (which means they don't care if you're walking on the sidewalk,this is their space and you're in the way).  Now that I ride my bike it's not as bad, but I still get bothered from time to time by panhandlers or people who just don't care that there are societal rules like walking on sidewalks or crosswalks or even that they shouldn't cross when the light says stop.

 

And it's not just kids. 

 

It's a shame, I would spend more time in Public Square b/c its a nice space, but it's simply not pleasurable due to the volume of losers that hang out there.

Look, it was a problem to a lesser degree during the Perk administration but it got better or worse depending on who was in office.  Sometimes the problem drifted into TT before it was a shopping mall.  Then the guys in the "Mountie" hats got hired and chased the kids away.  there was a howling about that but everybody got over it.  All it takes is the balls to stand up to being called a racist.  Forest City did that with the curfew.  The same kinds of things can be done in public places.  Enforcing littering laws is one way.  Yes, there will be a wailing and a  howling by civil rights groups.  George Forbes and the NAACP would be all over the Mayor (like with West 6th) but it could be done. It does come down to leadership.  The only reason we don't have a department store on public square is because of the human conditions there. 

Are there crime issues on Public Square? Fights? Pick-pockets? Is there even such a thing as 'loitering' in a "public square"? Isn't that kind of the idea? Are we going to start complaining next that 'they' are walking on the sidewalks?

 

Yes, there are.  The RTA police and the city police are there breaking shit up a lot.  Gang fights, etc.  And when you combine that with the running of the gauntlet required to get through all the beggers, it's not a very nice place to walk.  And I agree, directly in front of Terminal Tower is now included in this; that quadrant opposite Tower City is the worst.  You either walk through a cloud of smoking youth, or a cloud of belligerent youth who refuse to move, yield, or otherwise give way to the foot traffic. They literally stand right in front of the doors as a group, and you either have to shove through them or go completely out of your way to find a door where they're not congregating.  The 2nd worst quadrant is across the street where the farmers market has set up. I took 2 different friends to the market this summer and we got food from the dim and den sum truck and both of them felt uncomfortable sitting down at the benches there to eat because of the behavior of the people nearby, who are clearly on drugs of some sort.  I assured them it was fine but they were nervous the whole time, and I saw "exchanges" that were disturbing in a number of ways while we sat there.  And these were NOT youth waiting for public trans.

I always hear and see people yelling and talking really loud which makes the area uninviting. And kids shoving each other and disrespecting the people around them.

I read quite a number of negative impressions of Cleveland on TripAdvisor from people that try to walk through Public Square (people ssem to get the impression that Cleveland is nothing but a bunch of hostile homeless people) and out of towners experiences RTA, Cleveland seems to be leaving a bad taste with alot of people. 

Funny, I no longer find myself defending the place.

 

Oh and Tedolf, unfortunately there isnt any. 

Public Square is not a friendly place to be, thats why I believe the malls have a better chance of becoming something cool. And yes we put a lot of emphasis on public square and so when people come and visit and check it out, its not what they were expecting. Euclid Avenue to me seems like a friendly place to be and is a more true depiction of the city than Public Square.

I read quite a number of negative impressions of Cleveland on TripAdvisor from people that try to walk through Public Square (people ssem to get the impression that Cleveland is nothing but a bunch of hostile homeless people) and out of towners experiences RTA, Cleveland seems to be leaving a bad taste with alot of people.

Funny, I no longer find myself defending the place.

 

I just had a similar conversation with someone today.

We nearly bought a place at the Park Building downtown.  However, after parking at TT twice and walking through there and Public Square twice on our way to visit the Park we were completely turned off.  I cannot say that was the only reason we did not purchase there but it certainly was part of the decision.  I was actually looking forward to being able to take the Red Line to the airport when I travel but not so much walking the gauntlet.  Until something is done about the loitering and the behavior TT and Public Square will just be same old same old and nothing near what it can be.  Do any of the designs for this space relocate the "transportation hub" away from the front doors?

Let's condense all the stops to the northwest quadrant and free up all the other ones to be nice parks :lol:

I don't deny that it turns residents and out-of-towners off.  I think we have made some steps to curb the panhandling with the yellow boxes and a general shift in the attitude of people towards beggers.  Aggressive panhandlers need to be targeted.  I personally welcome the ones who are at least doing something for the money (like the guy who plays music outside the Q).

 

I also think enforcing the littering laws more strictly would be beneficial.  That's everywhere, though.

 

The 'kids', on the other hand, I wonder about.  Once again, I am not saying that they don't scare people, whether just by their presence or their behavoir.  But what can REALISTICALLY be done about it - the 'loitering' that is.... not any inappropriate behavoir that can be dealt with criminally.  Can you really ban loitering on a public square? 

 

Is there a crime report on Pubic Square?  I tried to google "gang fights" and "public square" and came up with nothing.

I don't deny that it turns residents and out-of-towners off. I think we have made some steps to curb the panhandling with the yellow boxes and a general shift in the attitude of people towards beggers. Aggressive panhandlers need to be targeted. I personally welcome the ones who are at least doing something for the money (like the guy who plays music outside the Q).

 

Please, please, please, don't confuse street performance with panhandling.  One adds to the urban environment, one takes away from it.

If you are looking for crime reports, CPD throws everything they have on crimereports.com. It's extremely useful.

I don't deny that it turns residents and out-of-towners off.  I think we have made some steps to curb the panhandling with the yellow boxes and a general shift in the attitude of people towards beggers.  Aggressive panhandlers need to be targeted.  I personally welcome the ones who are at least doing something for the money (like the guy who plays music outside the Q).

 

Please, please, please, don't confuse street performance with panhandling.  One adds to the urban environment, one takes away from it.

 

Agreed.  I shouldn't have worded it that way, but that was my basic point.

 

The 'kids', on the other hand, I wonder about.  Once again, I am not saying that they don't scare people, whether just by their presence or their behavoir.  But what can REALISTICALLY be done about it - the 'loitering' that is.... not any inappropriate behavoir that can be dealt with criminally.  Can you really ban loitering on a public square? 

 

Is there a crime report on Pubic Square?  I tried to google "gang fights" and "public square" and came up with nothing.

 

I haven't had as much of a problem with kids on Public Square, mostly adults. 

 

But still, I'm not sure who thought putting kids unsupervised on the bus/train on their way to/from school was a good idea, but it's not. I know when I was growing up taking the bus to/from school, any misbehavior on the bus could result in detention or other forms of school punishment if the bus driver wrote you up.  Not only that, but I wasn't allowed to get off at any stop other than my own or board another bus without a pass.  Meanwhile these kids can get on/off wherever they want and go basically anywhere.  RTA employees don't work for the school system and aren't equipped to be responsible for the thousands of kids that ride the bus.

 

So what can realistically be done about this?  The same thing that can be done about any kids misbehavior - don't let them be unsupervised and don't put them in situations that enables them to misbehave.  The system that allows scores of kids to be dropped off unsupervised in the middle of the day at Public Sqaure needs to be revisited.

How about routing all the buses along Prospect behind TT?  I would think that corridor has enough curbside to accommodate the # of buses we are looking to relocate

The amount of garbage infront of the Terminal Tower, especially on weekends can be ridiculous. Sometimes I have to dodge it all when im walking trying to find a clean place to step, and I agree that the southwest quadrant also has a garbage problem. The garbage and people yelling is what makes it the most uninviting. And when you walk along the northwest quadrants sidewalk, everyone stares at you, because you basically walk through a tunnel of people, some waiting by curb and some waiting against the wall/bench, and I see how people visiting here could find that unwelcoming and seem like an unfriendly area.

The litter and lack of maintenance is an issue the City can't overlook.  I can't seem to find the story, but I seem to remember there being an issue between the City and the service department workers' union when a non-profit (DCA?) started doing clean-up and maintenance of public square.  IIRC, the union sued the City, claiming that it had given away its jobs (which it was not doing in the first place).  I believe it won that case too.  So.... if the service workers want the job, and sues to retain it, why is the City not making them do it?

 

Also, don't we know have cameras filming public square 24 hours a day?

How about routing all the buses along Prospect behind TT? I would think that corridor has enough curbside to accommodate the # of buses we are looking to relocate

 

I don't doubt that closing Ontario and Superior through the square will give Joe C big headaches and slow down RTAs performance, but of course there are ways to re-route the buses.  Once the east side transit center is open, it might even be easier, not sure.

As for the transit hub, aren't we gaining an "eastside transit hub" approximately one mile away from public square at Cleveland State? I know it's not going to be able to accommodate all the bus traffic, but couldn't  a fair number of buses be rerouted to make their downtown destination CSU?

 

I seriously believe a study needs to be done examining the transit patterns coming into public square by car, bus, and train. In my experience riding the Red Line in the past, 90% of the passengers get off the train at Tower City and walk to their places of employment. I never saw a lot of people coming up from the rapid station and waiting around for a bus. It seems that most of the people waiting around for buses are bus to bus transfers.  (All anecdotal of course)

 

As long as we're on public square redesign, I suggest as a half step to unifying we close Ontario through the square, and make it more like a roundabout.

How about routing all the buses along Prospect behind TT? I would think that corridor has enough curbside to accommodate the # of buses we are looking to relocate

 

I don't doubt that closing Ontario and Superior through the square will give Joe C big headaches and slow down RTAs performance, but of course there are ways to re-route the buses. Once the east side transit center is open, it might even be easier, not sure.

 

Correct, but under this above scenario we would still retain some connectivity to the trains below.

I read quite a number of negative impressions of Cleveland on TripAdvisor from people that try to walk through Public Square (people ssem to get the impression that Cleveland is nothing but a bunch of hostile homeless people) and out of towners experiences RTA, Cleveland seems to be leaving a bad taste with alot of people. 

Funny, I no longer find myself defending the place.

 

Oh and Tedolf, unfortunately there isnt any. 

 

 

Isn't any what?

^Department stores, of course, silly.