Good post urbanomics. I could be on board with something closer to plaza than park if well designed and with some amenities.  I don't think I'd support 100% hardscape, but I definitely am not a fan of the big lawn that the Field Ops. scheme with a closed Ontario showed on the northern quadrants.  Not when the Malls are right around the corner. 

 

Im just afraid Public Square is too far gone in the sense that there is no true reason to go their unless your waiting for a bus. Now I love the Terminal Tower but it too does take some life away from the square and creates a lifeless wall, like by the Renaissance. I love the Terminal Tower but it does sort of have the effect.

 

I'm with you on some of those but Tower City seems to inject quite a bit of life into Public Square.  That entry to rail stations, stores, parking garages and all the other stuff in there is one of the best things going for Public Square.

urbanomics, an outstanding post! I agree with your proposed use of brick throughout as creating an "urban room" throughout the square and to calm traffic. I can picture it, and it almost makes it feel as if Superior no longer runs through the square, except that its vehicles do. Yet the continuous brick makes it feel like Public Square is for me as a pedestrian. I agree that it would make the motorist feel as though they are the visitor.

 

And I LOVE the idea of creating a plaza on the north half of the square for food and other vendors etc. The opening of Tower City out on to the square and the HealthLine will create more pedestrian activity on the south half. But the vendors on the north side will ensure that area is active as well.

 

I hope your ideas get the attention they deserve. They are outstanding!!!

I'll add my thumbs up to your mockup.

 

I don't understand why we can't just have a d@mn traffic circle.  Oh, wait, cause Americans are idiots.

I think the soldiers and sailors monument prevents having a traffic circle. And after 200+ years of Public Square, that's a tradition not likely to change.

I think the soldiers and sailors monument prevents having a traffic circle. And after 200+ years of Public Square, that's a tradition not likely to change.

 

Okay, a traffic square then.  It'd still work the same for entrance and exit rules :-P.

I agree with the plaza idea by Urbanomics.  I would envision a sort of larger version of San Francisco's Union Square or maybe two versions of it if the current PS is cut into two areas.  Union Square has a large hard surface cutting throughout and with some park benches.  Also added in are a few trees and stepped grassy areas to relax and maybe eat a lunch as a way to soften the hardscape.  There are also a couple of retail/snack type kiosks spread throughout as well. 

Here's a mock-up that's sort of a hybrid of the park/plaza ideas.  I've used pavers on Superior, but key the rest of the roads as asphalt for now (1 too hard to design, and 2) that seems like a LOT of construction/road work to ask of our fair city, which HATES traffic impediments).

 

I still think SOME green space is useful, so I added a fountain and small lawn area.

 

[EDIT:  Imagine the Christmas Tree in the Center of the North half, with decorations symmetrically all around... This would be a beautiful setting for such events.]

I agree with the plaza idea by Urbanomics.  I would envision a sort of larger version of San Francisco's Union Square or maybe two versions of it if the current PS is cut into two areas.  Union Square has a large hard surface cutting throughout and with some park benches.  Also added in are a few trees and stepped grassy areas to relax and maybe eat a lunch as a way to soften the hardscape.  There are also a couple of retail/snack type kiosks spread throughout as well. 

 

A point of reference to my earlier Union Square post.

 

Just looking at that second pic got me thinking....anyone else think that the current lack of advertising makes the square (and the city) seem drab, less vibrant?

 

Im just afraid Public Square is too far gone in the sense that there is no true reason to go their unless your waiting for a bus. The square is mostly surrounded by "useless" buildings in terms of creating foot traffic. The skyscraper killed public square. Key tower offers nothing to square. 200 public square as well. The old courthouse also creates a dead zone. Now I love the Terminal Tower but it too does take some life away from the square and creates a lifeless wall, like by the Renaissance. I love the Terminal Tower but it does sort of have the effect.

 

Our buildings of the past interacted with the square. They offered street level activity.

 

 

Thanks for all the comments and compliments.  Glad the idea has some appeal and I really enjoy seeing the different thoughts and ideas about how the square can be improved.

 

I understand the concerns over having an abundance of paved surface in the design and realize that there is a very fine line between “plaza” and “parking lot” (plus I could see winter maintenance with substantial plowing/salting becoming an issue).  But on the other side, I also think there is a fine line between having a multi-functional, mobile space and having a confusing maze.  Adding too many elements to the space, like fountains, hills, grass areas, statues, gardens, etc., can make it less accessible and functional.  I think that has a lot to do with the square’s current issues.  The SW quadrant has a bunch of tiers and steps, the SE has a giant monument, the NE has a water feature in the middle, and the NW has a lawn.  None of them work together in any real fashion and they really end up just impeding any sense of pedestrian flow.

 

Some of the best public spaces have hardly anything to them.  One of my favorite examples is Dam Square in Amsterdam:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Dam+Square,+Burgwallen-Nieuwe+Zijde,+Amsterdam,+The+Netherlands&aq=0&sll=41.500008,-81.693791&sspn=0.001097,0.002411&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dam,+Burgwallen-Nieuwe+Zijde,+Amsterdam,+Noord-Holland,+The+Netherlands&ll=52.373074,4.892548&spn=0.001788,0.006866&t=h&z=18

 

There’s a monument off to the one side (similar to how the Soldiers and Sailors Monument), a road running through it (similar to how Superior would be if Ontario were to be closed), transit crossing it (like the Healthline) and not much else.  And yet it functions well as a public space.

 

I realize that it has a far different history than PS.  Dam Square has been a gathering place for the city since Medieval times, while PS is trying to reinvent itself and reestablish some kind of identity.  However, I don’t necessarily think that identity needs to be anything complicated or earth-shattering.  I may be in the minority, but I don’t think to goal should necessarily be to get Joe Suburb from Berea (or even a downtown resident) to say “Hey, who wants to go hang out Public Square today?”  I just think it needs to be able to function as best as possible as a part of its surroundings.

 

I agree that more activity at street level from the surrounding buildings would certainly aid this cause.  I also think that programming it with concerts, events, etc. could bring more people out at times.  But I also think that the vast majority of the time it just needs to function as a contiguous hub of movement and activity, which is why I think that (at least design-wise) less could be more.  Just some more food for thought.

 

^I appreciate Dam Square and other spaces as inspiration, but think we should be really careful figuring out what we can really learn from them for our purposes given our very different physical and social context.  Without a pre-existing high pedestrian density in our downtown, for example, I think public square should aim to do a lot more than just be an efficient crossroads or stage to watch others.  Yeah, there certainly are a lot of overdesigned parks in the US (like the old Chester Commons/Perk Plaza), but you also have some pitifully under-designed ones too, like Government Center in Boston.

^ Very good point.  Dam Square is probably an extreme example of minimal design, and PS probably needs something more to it to generate additional activity.  I guess my suggestion was that too much can be bad as well, as you said.

^And I am definitely with you on emphasizing clear pedestrian routes, avoiding large expanses of grass and using design to claim any interior roadways as still part of the square.  Definitely some good inspiration.

I really like the idea of a plaza like PS.  I think that the plaza design will allow for more urban uses, too.  One thing I'd particularly like to see is an outdoor market run on the square.  It could be food one day, art another, resale market the next, etc.

And what's with that extra building?  Can we see the rest of it? 

 

Caught me...  I added a simple building facade to last spot on public square.  It was mostly to offer a more complete image of the square.  For the record I hope whatever goes there has street level activities galore.

 

 

 

Also -- does anyone know much about this kind of construction?  Below is a street that shows a large commercial building that was constructed "behind" and intertwined with the older shorter buildings.  The result is that you get an early 20th century street level effect but can fill in the entire block with larger buildings.  While it might cost more, I wonder how much?  Imagine if Key Tower had 6 or 7 unique "facades" (even if they are completely fake) with differing depths and heights on the Public Square side.  These could hold restaurants, retail, and smaller stores but would keep the Public Square 1920s look alive while allowing for massive skyscrapers to be built.

 

 

 

^It would be sweet if Public Square were surrounded by retail spaces, but I think many of us would gag if Key had fakey little facades pasted on its base.  Sorry.

We really need to invite Holmgren, Gilbert, and the other "urban design experts" on the group plan commission to come and visit this thread for inspiration.

 

Urbanomic, I love, love, love the idea of meshing the street with the rest of the square.  In fact, you did it so well, that at first glance I thought you had eliminated Superior altogether (see my knee-jerk response to your original post).

Key Tower is too thin anyways. I would like to see a coffee shop in one corner and something else small in the other. At least add some life over there

No, I understand that -- I'm not talking about fake masonry skins or anything.  I'm talking about deliberate construction (like the above) where new structures simulate individual small buildings" on the perimeter by expanding the footprint on the bottom 2,3,5 floors etc.  Check out the JoS. A. Bank store.  That is completely part of the "new" structure, but with the facade design and the height (it is cut off, but it only 5 floors high before a roof connects it to the bigger building behind).

 

The result is a streetside store that looks like a standalone building, and when placed next to other the historic buildings (see red brick row houses) it creates the appearance of an old fashioned mainstreet while allowing for large buildings on a lot.  It's an "unnecessary expense to most builders, but has permanent effects on the streetlife.

 

Compare it to the below.  This tall apartment building has a CVS right in the center of this picture, and the ground floor is actually retail!  Can't tell?  That's because we have a tree lawn, no easily visible signage, and no distinction from the building's brickwork anywhere else.  If a line of "rowhouses" were constructed as jutting out from the building to the street they could have active and energized retail making this block a destination.  Instead they have a stores that are almost entirely used by the apartment building's residents only.  Who knows if that's enough for revenues, but it certainly doesn't encourage unique restaurants and retail outlets to enter the market.

^And I am definitely with you on emphasizing clear pedestrian routes, avoiding large expanses of grass and using design to claim any interior roadways as still part of the square.  Definitely some good inspiration.

I think Millenium Park in Chicago does that well, the only expanse of grass is the lawn at the band shell.  Otherwise it is basically a campus of attractions, including Cloud Gate (the bean), the seasonal skating rink/restaurant patio, the Crown Fountains, the Peristyle, the Lurie Gardens, and the band shell.

 

Cleveland at this time doesn't have the money for hugely attractions like those, but we have a model for a successful plaza like park

I think in order to accommodate the new casino traffic we should just demolish it all and run a nice highway through it.

Turn the remaining space into parking. Genius, I know.  :roll:

 

 

I really need to get myself to Millenium Park one of these years.  I know it's a big attraction, but is it also a major crossroads for people traversing that part of town?  Forgive my lack of Chicago knowledge.

 

No, I understand that -- I'm not talking about fake masonry skins or anything.  I'm talking about deliberate construction (like the above) where new structures simulate individual small buildings" on the perimeter by expanding the footprint on the bottom 2,3,5 floors etc.  Check out the JoS. A. Bank store.  That is completely part of the "new" structure, but with the facade design and the height (it is cut off, but it only 5 floors high before a roof connects it to the bigger building behind).

 

No, I follow, but the simulation of individual, small, traditional buildings at the base isn't my cup of tea (whether through tacked on facades or sculpted/articulated tower podiums).  Just a different aesthetic preference.  And for public square in particular, I think something more monolithic or muscular (though with ground floor activity, and not necessarily super tall) would be a more dignified presence.  Again, just my preference.  YMMV.

Finished the PS paving stones everywhere...  I can't imagine this much road work would be approved (even if segments, the powers that be ...and suburbanites hate this stuff)... but it would be great.  Really like the idea of using the square as a true plaza.  Great idea urbanomics, hope my mockups express your idea (with a lil bit o' grass in there!  8-) )

 

I also really like Burnham_2011's suggestion for PS!!!  I'm glad to see the monument and a fountain there in the south section.  And I think that a Christmas tree and holiday decorations in the northern section would be a nice touch and a good use for the area around the holidays.  It would be an open area in the warm weather for various uses, daily markets, small concerts, art exhibits, etc and then a could be decorated for the holiday seasons (Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc.)

 

This is something that could/should probably be done in a few phases.  Just some suggestions, but what about  -  Phase 1, close off Ontario and develop the north and south sections.  Phase 2, re-pave the streets with the paving stones.  And the after a couple of years do Phase 3, which would maybe be to add additional amenities to the north and south sections and some of the surrounding buildings, depending on the various things that the new PS is used for??

I'd like to see the Soldiers and Sailors monument opened up to the rest of the plaza more, with pavers going all the way up to the base.  The current landscaping seems to make the monument feel somewhat inaccessible.

here is a public square configuration (i call it the home plate layout) that is probably cost prohibitive as it involves road relocation, but it has several strengths. Short of the closure of both Superior and Ontario it has 1) The largest continuous park space 2) least amount of roadway.

 

 

Largest Continuous green-space

Current Config - 1 acre (4 x 1 acre parks)

Ontairo St- Closed Config -  2 to 2.5 acres (2 x 2.25 acre parks)

Homeplate config - 3 to 3.5 acres (1 x 3.25 acre park)

 

Feet of Roadway (measured from center line of street - does nut

consider number of lanes)

Current Config - 9,000 ft

Ontairo St- Closed Config -  7,500 ft

Homeplate config - 5,000 ft

^ Very clever! Make that a one-way counterclockwise loop, round the corners a little, and keep traffic moving. I wonder how the pedestrian movements will turn out, though. 

Some great ideas, here!

 

Burnham, your vision is getting better and better with more detail. I think the brick should end with the perimeter road, with only the landscaped medians in the streets extending outward from the square. That would reduce the cost, I think, while giving the entire square a continuous plaza feel for pedestrians. I actually think it would dissuade motorists from entering the square. I wonder if there's a special heavy-duty brick that can better withstand the weight and turning of buses?

I Think the last diagram is great, Burnham!  What do you think about a plaza on the south square extending from the monument Westward to a cafe/visitor center located in front of Tower City.  Outdoor seating on this plaza would be nice.  And how about a few of the Hanna Fountains (if there still around) on the Northern square?

Lets remember that the square will be redeveloped along with the mall

Impressive ideas, especially img's rendition. I would take any one of those as a new public square layout. Between the Mall and Public Square, this city can finally get some green back downtown. For a city that was once called "The Forest City", I see more parking lots downtown than trees! Does anyone know if there have been any proposed development plans for Public Square recently?

Fantastic renderings Burnham.  The idea of using pavers throughout the square is brilliant and I love it.  My only concern is using pavers on streets heavily travelled by buses could cause some issues with maintenance as the pavers would probably crumble.  Especially in the winter when the plows grind over them.  In the interim I would take brick sidewalks and pedestrian crosswalk areas.  Using brick on Superior is a great way to calm the traffic through there though.  Keep up the good work!

I suppose their could be a weight restriction on passing through the square (ie no buses or tractor trailers).  Those vehicles could be routed around the loop.  Not sure if Superior through the square being part of "the Grand Army of the Republic Highway" (Rt 6) would preclude such a restriction, but it would certainly go a long way towards calming the traffic through the square.  I say drastically drop the speed limit over the pavers and add in all kinds of yield to pedestrian features like they have along Coventry.  That might just discourage enough traffic to make it work.

I was almost thinking that, if Ontario St. was to be closed through the square, you could essentially leave the traffic light in place or install a new one that completely stopped traffic to allow pedestrians to cross.  It's not like it would be adding an additional signal where there wasn't one already.  But I have no idea if that would fly with traffic engineers or even be a realistic option.

Alright -- trying to keep up with all the ideas/thoughts/critiques -- now I've made the Soldiers and Sailors monument much more open and connected to the Square.  Mostly it is led up to by steps on all sides (like the Jefferson Memorial or East side of Lincoln Memorial in DC).  I have also added three fountains (of the Hanna variety) to the North half of the Square.  The Fountain in the Southwestern quadrant could be a larger piece of urban artwork something like this (but circular) http://image60.webshots.com/160/6/74/96/2002674960083553479WHBMOw_fs.jpg.

 

Lastly I've reduced the pavers to only surround the square, which I agree is best.  Unique patterns and stones for cross walks, and the areas they are bounded by will make the entire area favor the pedestrian.  I couldn't add them here, but I'd argue for early 20th century street lamps to light Superior from the boulevard's median.  Any and all street signs lights should be of the same style (regardless of which is chosen).

I would like to see some of those little rentable kiosk spaces for coffee, newspapers etc ala Bryant Park in Manhattan, etc.  Perhaps with heated sidewalk/patios around them for wintertime lounging....customers only of course.

Burnham.  In an ideal world I love the latest renditions, but I think (for several reasons) that extending the pavers to the loop is not realistic.  Having them cover Superior on the interior of the square is a lofty enough goal.  JMO.

Fantastic renderings Burnham.  The idea of using pavers throughout the square is brilliant and I love it.  My only concern is using pavers on streets heavily travelled by buses could cause some issues with maintenance as the pavers would probably crumble.  Especially in the winter when the plows grind over them.  In the interim I would take brick sidewalks and pedestrian crosswalk areas.  Using brick on Superior is a great way to calm the traffic through there though.  Keep up the good work!

 

There are definitely pavers out there strong enough to stand up to bus/truck traffic, though I have no idea how expensive they or the necessary foundation work would be.

 

For aesthetic reasons alone though, I would definitely prefer something other then red brick.

Wow. Great work guys. I am loving the paved plaza idea. Although Key currently just has a huge lobby on the street level, I do think that it would be able to support some street level retail fairly easily. Well easily compared to the old stone church and the Bank Building on the east side. There are several window spots along the square that could be turned into front entrances for small retail areas with a central entrance into the lobby inbetween.

I would like to see some of those little rentable kiosk spaces for coffee, newspapers etc ala Bryant Park in Manhattan, etc.  Perhaps with heated sidewalk/patios around them for wintertime lounging....customers only of course.

 

Agree!! Some retail would work wonders. An outdoor restaurant would be ideal.

 

I'm such a shill for Bryant Park lol...

 

http://www.otto-otto.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/sw-porch.jpg

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Bryant_Park_Xmas_shopping_jeh.JPG

 

http://z.about.com/d/manhattan/1/7/u/_/Southwest-Porch-at-Bryant-Park.JPG

^ I like those greenhouse-esque kiosk.

I love some of the designs you guys have come up with, but can I add a request that we have a straight path across the square from Tower City to the Mall? There's no reason to make people zigzag around the sidewalks when a good portion of the people walking through the square are just trying to get from the rapid to their offices over near E 9th and St Clair. The lawn that Burnham posted upthread looks like an obstical to me that would just encourage people to go around the square instead of through it. I would think a diagonal path through could make it more inviting.

When the CUDC and James Corner Field Operations put out the 3 ideas for PS (which I think all comes in 2nd, 3rd and 4th place behind what's been discussed here), they had images with very interesting (almost tile-like) streetscapes.

 

I'm not saying they were genuine references to materials one could use, but if they were using patterns and tile that are real, perhaps those could be used to avoid only using red brick.

 

Though I would point out that at least using SOME of the same styles from the Euclid Corridor would be helpful in creating a continuous "Cleveland Style".  Later the WHD could have new streetscapes put in with similar colors as well.  Or one could take a page from Gordan Square and make unique patters for the crosswalks/brickwork.  That all comes after a plan would be approved, but I agree 100% that the "little things" are BIG!

 

 

^I reviewed those this morning and had the same thought.  Looking back, I'm now not so crazy about any of the Field Ops proposals but I do kind of dig their paving patterns!

 

^^Yeah, I agree.  That direct-ish path is one of the few good things about the current quadrant designs.  I'd also think we might want to preserve some of the Ontario axis through the square as a gesture towards the group plan and the view down to the courthouse.

I agree about the "nod" to the group plan by keeping the view up Ontario as clear.  The use of Ontario (read: Casino, Stanley Block, etc.) I believe will be another key to making Public Square vibrant again.  I put up two "paths" red and blue to illustrate a point that I don't believe people will have too much adversity to walking a diagonal or two to get from A to B through PS.  Right now to get from the Terminal Tower to the Mall you need to cross 4 separate streets, go up and down grades (the SW quadrant) and go around various steps.  The idea I've been updating to match what others are interested in has a red and blue path on it.  I don't think many people would prefer (especially in the better weather months) to walk along the perimeter which is a longer route anyhow, than to walk through the square.  As you can see the red line is actually shorter.  Anyhow, this is just an idea, but I'm not sure that we need to clear a direct obvious wide path from NE to SW corners.  This whole area will be very open and visible and much more pedestrian friendly with this sort of plan. 

 

PS anyone have any idea of how to get something like the forum's dialog and images in front of the powers that be?

^Try Parkworks

 

 

For those wondering about Pavers - this road has trucks on it constantly dropping off produce for the market in the background.  Has brick, stone, and unique patterned masonry all over the place.  This road is open on weekends, but because of the foot traffic people have basically just stopped using it aside from occasional needs/tourists.  I think that would be what might happen to Superior to an extent.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=washington+DC+eastern+market&aq=&sll=38.898782,-77.005577&sspn=0.206807,0.308647&gl=us&ie=UTF8&hq=eastern+market&hnear=Eastern+Market,+225+7th+St+SE,+Washington+D.C.,+District+of+Columbia+20003&ll=38.886223,-76.995857&spn=0.020845,0.038418&t=h&layer=c&cbll=38.886057,-76.99617&panoid=Kq0Z39eAJYD76-mmzfw6og&cbp=12,352.53,,0,22.57&output=svembed

since there will be no ontario turn lanes, How many lanes would superior be?

since there will be no ontario turn lanes, How many lanes would superior be?

Probably a bus lane and a car lane, like it is now.

how about a bike lane? Like this picture urbanforever took of Montreal.