I would like to see things that make the area an oasis in the heart of the city (ice cream stand, run by a local businesses owner in Summer and in winter its serves Hot Chocolate, etc.;  A small sandwich shop; Information Kiosk and something to bridge it to the Mall"  A fountain or great piece of public Art)

 

 

Even an Oasis could use a vending machine!

 

But really, I agree with you I much prefer local; those places you described would be an epic start vs. what we have now. 

^Agreed. It would be a pretty awesome gesture if the city just went ahead and closed one or both of the Ontario segments in the near term, let the food tricks in, and allowed operators to set up some kind of pop-up concessions.  If the traffic can handle it, no reason to wait till construction to make the area better.

MTS, as long as the bulk of the square remains public, I don't think many people are going to care if the square is privately managed or if the concessions are sponsored.  And given the city's record with park maintenance, I'd guess most people would prefer that DCA or some other private group take charge of the maintenance.

 

thats the problem, under private management, the square doesn't remain public.  For example I've had BP shut down for movies, commercials, special events and to change wrappings.  The public is never happy about that.  BP uses these income generators that put off daytime users of the park.

 

In addition PS could be too tight for too many things.  The S&S monument wont move but the combined space of the remaining quadrants could feature one or two concessions and public art.

 

I think combining the square and creating gateways to WHD and The Mall would be awesome.

thats the problem, under private management, the square doesn't remain public.  For example I've had BP shut down for movies, commercials, special events and to change wrappings.  The public is never happy about that.  BP uses these income generators that put off daytime users of the park.

Public Square has been shut down at times too though.

thats the problem, under private management, the square doesn't remain public.  For example I've had BP shut down for movies, commercials, special events and to change wrappings.  The public is never happy about that.  BP uses these income generators that put off daytime users of the park.

Public Square has been shut down at times too though.

Not anywhere like BP, they bid out contracts.  Our divisions have had events there. HGTV has had several, Disney, MLB, NFL, and these are things that take over the park for days or weeks.

Surfohio those are great examples. They work so well in other urban centers, why not here. I mean it works at CrockerPark. With the thousands who interact with PS everyday it seems like it would be a great opportunity for someone.

 

I'm not trying to be mean but PS and Crocker Park are two different beasts. 

 

 

 

Oh, OK. Thanks for checking in.

MTS, as long as the bulk of the square remains public, I don't think many people are going to care if the square is privately managed or if the concessions are sponsored.  And given the city's record with park maintenance, I'd guess most people would prefer that DCA or some other private group take charge of the maintenance.

 

thats the problem, under private management, the square doesn't remain public.  For example I've had BP shut down for movies, commercials, special events and to change wrappings.  The public is never happy about that.  BP uses these income generators that put off daytime users of the park.

 

In addition PS could be too tight for too many things.  The S&S monument wont move but the combined space of the remaining quadrants could feature one or two concessions and public art.

 

How the square is used and who manages it are two separate issues, and there is nothing about having the types of concessions surf showed that means the park has to be regularly whored out to the fashion industry (or anyone else). But this is getting off topic and we agree that the city shouldn't allow big chunks of the park to be regularly reserved for private uses, which I think was your main point.

Surfohio those are great examples. They work so well in other urban centers, why not here. I mean it works at CrockerPark. With the thousands who interact with PS everyday it seems like it would be a great opportunity for someone.

 

I'm not trying to be mean but PS and Crocker Park are two different beasts. 

 

 

 

Oh, OK. Thanks for checking in.

 

Come on man.  I was serious.  How do you compare a faux community park to an historical square that the city radiates from?  You can't have the same type of programming on the same level nor can you advertise in the same manner.

 

Help me understand your thoughts.

MTS, as long as the bulk of the square remains public, I don't think many people are going to care if the square is privately managed or if the concessions are sponsored.  And given the city's record with park maintenance, I'd guess most people would prefer that DCA or some other private group take charge of the maintenance.

 

thats the problem, under private management, the square doesn't remain public.  For example I've had BP shut down for movies, commercials, special events and to change wrappings.  The public is never happy about that.  BP uses these income generators that put off daytime users of the park.

 

In addition PS could be too tight for too many things.  The S&S monument wont move but the combined space of the remaining quadrants could feature one or two concessions and public art.

 

How the square is used and who manages it are two separate issues, and there is nothing about having the types of concessions surf showed that means the park has to be regularly whored out to the fashion industry (or anyone else). But this is getting off topic and we agree that the city shouldn't allow big chunks of the park to be regularly reserved for private uses, which I think was your main point.

 

Yes, but I firmly believe the owner/manager is important to the issue.

Surfohio those are great examples. They work so well in other urban centers, why not here. I mean it works at CrockerPark. With the thousands who interact with PS everyday it seems like it would be a great opportunity for someone.

 

I'm not trying to be mean but PS and Crocker Park are two different beasts. 

 

 

 

Oh, OK. Thanks for checking in.

 

Come on man.  I was serious.  How do you compare a faux community park to an historical square that the city radiates from?  You can't have the same type of programming on the same level nor can you advertise in the same manner.

 

Help me understand your thoughts.

 

I am hardly comparing the two. Anyone who believes that CP offers an urban experience lives a pretty sheltered life. Crockery Park is a movie set,  it shields you from the reality's of the real world.  My only point was they both offer a place where people gather and with that the chance to expose them to different component's would be a good opportunity.

I agree it would be great to connect the square and find a way to make it a centerpiece (and even a gateway to the city's best attractions), but I think no matter what they do there needs to be significant effort (and creativity) used to connect the Mall.  The NE quadrant, the roadways on its North and Eastern sides, and Rockwell Ave South of the Mall need considerable focus.  Personally I would rather they close Ontario and the Roadways toward the Mall.  Cars and Buses can be re-routed, but the city only gets one chance to make this sort of change, it's got to be good!

 

(Note: the image isn't my proposal for how the quadrants should be set up, just meant to illustrate the road closures.  I think the roads between the mall and PS NE Quad could be landscaped and contain paths that naturally flow from the southern part of the Mall.  It could be something really special for Cleveland, and not just pavers and grass plots, but a public garden/arboretum effect that makes the NE Quad almost a Mall A 2.0.

 

 

I admire your enthusiasm Burnham, but I don't think closing Rockwell or E Roadway is even on the table.  I have read somewhere the idea of closing Rockwell to the east of E Roadway (which makes sense), but not the portion that actually outlines the square.

Hmm, while traffic is lighter on the sides of that quadrant, I think you might be asking too much to suggest closing off that corner and closing Ontario.

 

I'm definitly with you on closing E 3rd, and would love to see us permanently change Rockwell the way it was temporarily reconfigured with bike lanes last month.

 

I'm guessing there's another way that we can facilitate easier walking from the square to Mall A without having to close off those roads. I'd agree that it should be better than it is...

I am 100% behind the Burnham Plan above! :D

 

I was actually incredibly disappointed to read that some of these reconfigurations require expansion of Rockwell from two lanes to three lanes. If that's the case, I would much rather be studying Rockwell as a permanent closure and a focus on the northeast quadrant bleeding into the malls, as Burnham shows above. The integration of these two spaces as a programmable, greenspace with a safe, dedicated bikeway into the very center of the city (Rockwell) seems a better investment for the money, rather than focusing on creating one or two spaces in Public Squares that are still cut off on the outsides by vehicular traffic.

Hts, I too have not seen those roadways as an option, but I can't figure out why.  It seems like low hanging fruit to me, as an option.  Closing Rockwell makes sense, but why not go a little further, it doesn't eliminate routes to other areas of the square, and there are ways to put wide enough paths in for deliveries and emergency vehicles of course.  Has anyone heard a reason to reject this idea? 

 

Again, I just think the crucial connection is to the Mall (and eventually the lake, rock hall etc.), we have such a great asset in the mall, but without adjacent uses people won't go there.  We can hope for the Board of Education Building to be converted to a hotel, or for the Med Mart to increase traffic, but with such few options I think PS could be viewed as another "pedestrian engine" to encourage use of the Mall.

I suspect that closing that segment of Rockwell would severely reduce north/south capacity through downtown. Burnham, are you proposing that the western half of the outer roadway be made two-way?

I just don't think you can close those roads AND Ontario.

 

What I have thought a couple times is that you could leave Ontario and Superior open, but close off all the side roads except Roadway past the Soldiers and Sailors monument (and make it 2 directions for getting to/from Euclid). You'd still have 4 squares, but they'd be connected to the neighborhoods around them. RTA would have to move the Healthline stops from the square over to the West Side Transit center, but I assume they were planning on doing that anyway, so it wouldn't cost them anything extra. Plus they're far less used than the roads through the middle of the square so it wouldn't upset too many drivers.

 

see

http://goo.gl/maps/asP3

Burnham - let's see your best mock-up of something along the lines of what the traffic study proposes.  A closed Ontario, making two quadrants instead of four, and with pavers or something else that "matches" along Superior.

The Million dollar question...from the tone of today's PD articles I'm afraid it sounds like we're still many years away.

 

That's not a million-dollar question. It's a matter of routine procedure when you're dealing with transportation projects, especially those involving federal matters. Since Superior is a federal route (US 6 and US 20), there is a process established by federal law (National Environmental Policy Act) which needs to be followed to determine the impact of this change on natural and built environments. In its most basic form, the project development process under NEPA starts with an alternatives analysis. Then the preferred alternative is subjected to an environmental documentation (there are three different types depending on the scale of the proposed change -- categorical exclusion, environmental assessment or environmental impact analysis). Sometimes an alternatives analysis can include some environmental documentation. Then the proposed project and its environmental mitigation elements become the subject of preliminary engineering to determine a projected construction cost. If the project meets federal criteria (for road projects, criteria is focused on traffic flow and safety; for transit projects, criteria is focused on cost-effectiveness), if is therefore eligible to receive funding, and if its score gives it higher priority over other transportation needs, then it could receive funding in about five years after a NEPA-compliant assessment begins. That five years is the average time, according to the Federal Highway Administration, and can vary depending on how complicated a project is. Then the project undergoes final engineering and construction.

 

Any change to Superior Avenue through Public Square will probably have more impacts on built environments (increased noise, vibration, affects on historic structures, and issues of safety on other nearby streets where traffic will be diverted) but there are some impacts on natural environments (increased air pollution from vehicles having to stop-start more often in congestion and from X number of vehicles having to take Y longer routes). If it is found that these impacts are serious enough and any proposed mitigation is either too expensive or not sufficient to reduce the impacts, then the project would not receive a Finding Of No Significant Impact (FONSI) from the appropriate federal agency or agencies, in this case the Federal Highway Administration/FHWA (and possibly the Federal Transit Administration will have a say in signing off on the FONSI, as might the department of Housing and Urban Development). If there is no FONSI forthcoming, then there will be no federal money forthcoming. Or the mitigation measures necessary to achieve a FONSI may be so expensive that the non-federal funding share (20-50 percent) may be so expensive that the city/county/state may not be able to afford. And of course the way gas tax revenues are declining, the feds may not have the money to pay for the project either! The FHWA is probably not going to support a project that increases levels of vehicular congestion on federal roads. They have road congestion rating system and they do not fund projects that cause a road or roads to experience higher congestion ratings.

 

Because changing Superior Avenue through Public Square is a federal matter, local approvals of any redesign project have to go before the region's Metropolitan Planning Organization, which for our region is the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency. If the proposed improvements to Public Square meet NOACA's scoring criteria for funding eligibility, then it can receive funding. However, if that score is not high enough to rank higher than that of other projects of need in the five-county region, then it will have to wait for funding.

 

Determining the impacts and costs from any change to Superior Avenue, its funding eligibility, its ranking and its timeline....  Now THOSE are the million-dollar questions!

 

KJP I just wanted to say that was insightful, that your off hand knowledge of NEPA is pretty sharp and most of all, thanks a lot for depressing me!

EDITED KJP, you really think this project will be subject to a full EIS and an alternatives analysis even if Superior stays open through the square?  Not my area of expertise, but that doesn't sound right to me. I know the changes to the Detroit-Superior Bridge had to confirm to federal design standards, but was there a full EIS for that project?

 

Sorry, I re-read and saw you were laying out the entire framework.  I'm pretty confident this project (as currently conceived) won't come close to triggering the need for a full EIS, and I doubt the city will be requesting federal transportation funding for this, so fingers crossed the federal involvement here is going to be pretty minor and not much of a time drag.

Yep, just a framework full of what-ifs. I don't think it will require a full EIS either, and it may not even require anything that's federally compliant if the city doesn't want to close Superior. But if the city does want to close it, and depending on what the assessment shows in terms of impacts on routes for permanently detouring traffic, it may not be as horrific as the full extent of the framework. Again the average time frame for going through this process is five years. If the impacts from detouring traffic aren't deemed significant, then it will probably be less than five years. Even so, does 2007-08 seem that long ago? Not to me, but then time appears to move progressively faster the older one gets. :)

No Thru Streets? http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/clevelands-plans-to-make-over-public-square-could-close-major-streets-forever

I like the idea of one large square, but I dont want it to be impossible enter and exit that square due to traffic around the square. I hate the current configuration, but am not sure what the best choice is.

 

I think I agree with the Mayor. He's accepting a middle ground, where if traffic must continue on Superior, that the street should at least match the rest of the big square aesthetically.

 

I'm thinking some quality brick or even cobblestone will work.

 

I always thought the worst part of PS wasn't that traffic moved through it, but rather the speed of traffic and the overall anti-pedestrian feel were the real problems.

 

there is a significant opportunity to reduce the lanes  on superior from 6 lanes and a 10 foot median to 2 lanes in each direction that have been traffic calmed and narrowed from 12 ft lane to 2 11 foot bus only lane and  2 10 foot lane for vehicle traffic.  whit a 30 foot Usable median in between without curbs and using decorative bollards to separate traffic from people on the median. 

 

This could be a great opportunity for Cleveland's 1st pedestrian first street, with 20 mph speed limit and policed by traffic cameras to ensure compliance.

 

to summarize:

 

Original 75 ft ROW corridor with 4 12 ft traffic lanes

Reduced to 2 11 ft bus lanes and 2 10 ft vehicluar lanes.

now with a 33 ft median plaza.

 

all curbs would be removed except at bus stops. with pedestrian areas protected by theses

 

OR this

 

I think we should look at other cities' squares, and look at their contexts, before knee-jerk deciding that a big unbroken park is best for the center of Cleveland.  It's a lot smaller, and lacking a natural water body, as say, Boston Commons/Public Gardens.  It's similar in size to Philly's Rittenhouse Sq, and similar to what many people here desire: an unbroken park with park with perimeter roadways. BUT NOTE: Rittenhouse sq. is off to the side of Philly's CBD and is the center of an old, upscale high-rise residential district NOT the traffic center of that city's CBD like Public Sq. is here  (actually Center Square, where Philly's old, gigantic City Hall, is more comparable to our Public Sq -- and it's rotary-style traffic pattern is a car-pedestrian nightmare).

 

Perhaps the closest example – in size and context - to emulate is Detroit’s recently reestablished Campus Martius, which is considered by most planners as a major success story.  But even there, CM was more seen as pumping life into a moribund downtown, one that was and is much weaker than Cleveland’s downtown (even before the Horseshoe Casino).  We in Cleveland have the people, we just want to make the experience more pleasant for them. 

 

Yes, the Marine Week closure proved (as we’ve seen with similar special event closures in the past) that for a few days, we can get by traffic-wise, with a closed off Public Square.  But does that mean that, long term, this situation is desirable? I’m not here to say yes or no, but I think we again need to carefully consider context before jumping headlong into a model that we feel would be nice for the center of our town….

 

Btw, I applaud RTA for fighting to assure that its riders don’t get pushed aside so that their bus-to-rail connections are hampered by any PS improvement.  The good news is that Prospect Ave. provides excellent ingress/egress to RTA trains – in many better than Public Sq., which could make moving bus drop-off/terminal there an attractive alternative to allow the opening up of PS to reconfiguration.

 

 

 

The only time traffic is bad is 4 hours a day...I think we can deal!!!

^For real.

 

^^Totally cool if anyone disagrees with the road closures, but I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could use words like "knee-jerk" and "jumping in" given the long, slow, meticulous planning process that's been going on...

Hts, I won't claim it's "my best" but here's the gist of what a decent Closed Ontario, Paved Superior would look like.

 

Note: The quadrants are not re-purposed in this model, ideally the new Bi-sected PS would have re developed uses and urban furniture/landscaping.

Burnham_2011, I always like your graphics. Thanks for doing them.

 

Question, I agree with the need to put some kind of greenery down the middle of Superior through the square, but a continuous strip probably impedes the flow of pedestrian traffic through there. Maybe that's the intention? Instead, however, I think this is a section of road where jaywalking should be encouraged as much by having multiple breaks in the median/landscaping as vehicular traffic is discouraged by having a road surface that is less enjoyable to drive on. And, of course, having so many jaywalkers in that area probably would discourage vehicular traffic too. City Council would probably have to amend the anti-jaywalking law by declaring the section of Superior between the west and east roadways of Public Square as a "jaywalking-exempt" area.

 

An example of a traffic-calming road surface is Murray Hill Road in Little Italy. It's just a brick street, but at least in my hard-suspensioned sports car, it's not very pleasant to drive on at much more than 20-30 mph. Yet when I've crossed that street on foot, it's not difficult to walk on like some cobblestone streets -- especially in Europe. So that might be a good model to replicate with Superior, if its kept open. And considering what the city would have to do to close it, it's probably not worth the time, trouble or potential expense.

Hts, I won't claim it's "my best" but here's the gist of what a decent Closed Ontario, Paved Superior would look like.

 

Note: The quadrants are not re-purposed in this model, ideally the new Bi-sected PS would have re developed uses and urban furniture/landscaping.

 

Looks great!  I'd love a nice coffee kiosk out there with tables and some wicked strong brew!

Superior and Ontario are major routes through the city center -- Superior especially. In the last week I've been stuck in traffice getting into the city twice northbound on Ontario to get to Euclid. And there wasn't even a baseball game in town. But I should be greatful since it's only 4 hours a day and at least it's not Chicago or New York. :?

 

The city has too many individual projects that don't mesh with each other. In their infinite wisdom, the city designed Euclid so I can't turn left onto E.4th, so I need easy access to S. Roadway. The far right lane on Ontario is basically right turn only into the casino parking deck. The far left lane is the people getting stuck having to turn left onto Prospect because the road is closed to public square. And the middle lanes are people confused as hell as to where to go. Closing either rode through PS doesn't seem like the way to go.

 

I'm not opposed to reworking some of the lines around public square. But I wonder when the traffic study was done because it mustn't have been in the last month or two since the casino opened. How about another one NOW during the summer when there are more people downtown.

^disagree...and these people are pretty smart...they know how to take seasonal fluctuations into account when doing such studies.

KJP -- Made an update to break up the tree lines in the center of Superior.  Added a blue sky and used some of the images from James Corner to brighten up the image (...though I hate when firms use Photoshop to enhance the look just to make their projects look better)  Still not alternative designs within the Square(s) but you get the idea.

 

^Mendo, when you say "stuck in traffic getting into the city" I'm curious how long the delay was compared to whatever you consider a typical commute.  I won't argue with anyone that a slower commute isn't annoying, but I think that when projects, like this, are taken into consideration we have to ask whether or not the new traffic patterns cause economically significant delays.  I live in D.C. and know people that have a 2 hour commute from their homes to the office, something that is not unheard of in many major cities.  The city will need to have decide what constitutes too costly a traffic shift, and have the courage to make decisions that may upset some people -- if the value to the city is higher. 

Pretty sure this past week isn't that useful a preview for what traffic will be like with the proposed Public Square changes. I'm sure there will be some growing pains but traffic has an amazing ability to redistribute itself across the entire network once drivers understand there has been a permanent change.  Depending on where they are going, I suspect more drivers will take West Huron to West 9th street to head to the northern parts of downtown; or just take East 9th. There may be other tweaks to the downtown grid too, like new left turn lanes in various spots to allow more flexibility.  Plus, to state the obvious, Superior wouldn't necessarily be closed in this scheme. 

Superior and Ontario are major routes through the city center -- Superior especially. In the last week I've been stuck in traffice getting into the city twice northbound on Ontario to get to Euclid. And there wasn't even a baseball game in town. But I should be greatful since it's only 4 hours a day and at least it's not Chicago or New York. :?

 

The city has too many individual projects that don't mesh with each other. In their infinite wisdom, the city designed Euclid so I can't turn left onto E.4th, so I need easy access to S. Roadway. The far right lane on Ontario is basically right turn only into the casino parking deck. The far left lane is the people getting stuck having to turn left onto Prospect because the road is closed to public square. And the middle lanes are people confused as hell as to where to go. Closing either rode through PS doesn't seem like the way to go.

 

I'm not opposed to reworking some of the lines around public square. But I wonder when the traffic study was done because it mustn't have been in the last month or two since the casino opened. How about another one NOW during the summer when there are more people downtown.

 

IMHO, if they close the street(s), drivers will find other routes depending on their destination.  For example, some folks that live in Ohio City that work near E. 9th might right now take Superior to their destination.  If they close Superior they have St. Clair or Carneige as options.  The same could be said of folks heading North on Ontario to a destination on St. Clair or Lakeside.  They might take E. 9th.  I know that I would utilize the Innerbelt and Shoreway rather than try to drive through the middle of the city.

 

Of course there are times that you might actually need to drive to a destination in the immediate area of Public Square.  That begs the questions of "for what?"  You can't park and go shopping (I'm not advocating parking, shopping yes, parking no).  If those streets were closed, I would hope to see any cars driving around Public Square as mostly due to drop-off/pick of passengers (Kiss and Drive) and not through traffic because of destinations.

 

This whole discussion about blocking Ontario and Superior reminds me of why I liked living in the Heights area many years ago.  If I ran into traffic, heard about an accident or construction, there was always another route to my destination.  My point is simply that getting drivers to adjust is minor compared to the potential upside of a well designed, flexible public space in the heart of the city.  I say push the through traffic to other routes and let pedestrians rule the Square!

Superior and Ontario are major routes through the city center -- Superior especially. In the last week I've been stuck in traffice getting into the city twice northbound on Ontario to get to Euclid. And there wasn't even a baseball game in town. But I should be greatful since it's only 4 hours a day and at least it's not Chicago or New York. :?

 

The city has too many individual projects that don't mesh with each other. In their infinite wisdom, the city designed Euclid so I can't turn left onto E.4th, so I need easy access to S. Roadway. The far right lane on Ontario is basically right turn only into the casino parking deck. The far left lane is the people getting stuck having to turn left onto Prospect because the road is closed to public square. And the middle lanes are people confused as hell as to where to go. Closing either rode through PS doesn't seem like the way to go.

 

I'm not opposed to reworking some of the lines around public square. But I wonder when the traffic study was done because it mustn't have been in the last month or two since the casino opened. How about another one NOW during the summer when there are more people downtown.

Mendo, this weeks traffic pattern is worse than it would be if Ontario was closed because Superior is closed as well. On top of that, public square is currently an attraction that a large number of people are coming downtown to see. Plus the casino is still new, and therefore still attracting larger crowds than it will in a few months/years. In short, it shouldn't be a surprise if there's a bit more traffic than usual this week. I would expect that if Ontario gets closed permanently, it'll take a few weeks for everyone to get used to that too. The thing is, if it takes someone driving into downtown an extra 5 minutes to get to their destination for the first few weeks after Ontario closes, that's not really that bad. If Ontario does get closed, I'd recommend that you take the bus if coming to that side of downtown for a couple weeks. Beyond a couple weeks, everyone's GPS will be updated to tell them to get off on 9th and traffic should be moving along just fine.

Has anyone noticed the bottleneck at virtually every intersection downtown this week? It must be caused by closing Ontario and Superior for Marine Week.  Is this what we can expect if Public Square is turned into a giant park with no cross roads?

I didn't experience a traffic crush until Friday afternoon and evening. That was CRAZY!

 

I'm glad I took the Rapid downtown Friday for the game. I am not glad I took the Rapid home. See why at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4504.msg626057.html#msg626057

 

Anyway, the signs on Ontario encouraging motorists to turn at Prospect seemed to be missing. I did not see them. Apparently none of the motorists did either because they were heading north up to Euclid where they gridlocked that street and surrounding streets. Closing Ontario may still work if motorists know to avoid Public Square by turning on Huron or Prospect.

I still haven't seen traffic like I'm used to seeing in every major downtown.  This is what downtown should be in a healthy city. 

I still haven't seen traffic like I'm used to seeing in every major downtown.  This is what downtown should be in a healthy city. 

Agreed!

I still haven't seen traffic like I'm used to seeing in every major downtown.

 

I saw it last night!

^For real.

 

^^Totally cool if anyone disagrees with the road closures, but I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could use words like "knee-jerk" and "jumping in" given the long, slow, meticulous planning process that's been going on...

 

First, I'm all in favor of redeveloping the Square, I don't know where you got the idea I'm against it.  Certainly the current cut up, wide-road, ped-unfriendly PS sucks.  Secondly, and more importantly, I mean by "knee jerk" the sudden interest immediate redevelopment based on the Marine Week closure.  That we need to carefully consider the alternatives and not just send in the dump trucks with soil and sod to dump. 

 

What kind of public activities do we want on the new square ? Again, Detroit's Campus Matrius has a nice program of public concerts, skating and a food vendor -- formerly Au Bon Pain until another vendor took over -- I think CM is a good model for us.  The recent light-show for the casino as well as the upcoming Cleve Orchestra 4th/July fireworks laser show, demonstrates that people will flock to even the current flawed Square if there are interesting things for them, their families to do.

 

Also, have we seriously thought about what to do/how to integrate the huge Soldiers & Sailors Monument ? (hello Postively Cleveland!!, like we've got this amazing, free Civil War museum on our front lawn and, yet, we barely hear/read anything about it -- END OF RANT).  Do we keep S&SM and integrate it into the new PS/park (probably), or figure out how to dismantle and move it (unlikely, even though it would free up much space)? 

 

We have now, and have always had lots of plans (I'm unfortunately old enough to remember the rather bizarre Halperin plan of the late 1970s with its underground parking under the Square and ramps to reach it).  I'm NOT in favor of one of those classic Cleveland decades-long paralysis-by-analysis studies we're so unfortunately good at (ie, how should we best extend the Rapid?  What's the best usage for the lakefront?  Where should we move he County Admin employees?  What's the best building for the hole on Public Square?... for the sea/surface parking in the WHD? yadda, yadda, yadda!)....  But I do think that we need to (expeditoiusly) consider various scenarios, pick the best, and get it done!

I don't understand the obsession over combining the squares into one space. I like how each has it's own style and design. I would entertain the idea of thinning the roadways so they aren't 5+ lanes wide. But closing even one of them? How about spending some of that money for more streetscaping, lights, trees, etc, or repaving the horrific streets.

^For real.

 

^^Totally cool if anyone disagrees with the road closures, but I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could use words like "knee-jerk" and "jumping in" given the long, slow, meticulous planning process that's been going on...

 

First, I'm all in favor of redeveloping the Square, I don't know where you got the idea I'm against it.  Certainly the current cut up, wide-road, ped-unfriendly PS sucks.  Secondly, and more importantly, I mean by "knee jerk" the sudden interest immediate redevelopment based on the Marine Week closure.  That we need to carefully consider the alternatives and not just send in the dump trucks with soil and sod to dump. 

 

What kind of public activities do we want on the new square ? Again, Detroit's Campus Matrius has a nice program of public concerts, skating and a food vendor -- formerly Au Bon Pain until another vendor took over -- I think CM is a good model for us.  The recent light-show for the casino as well as the upcoming Cleve Orchestra 4th/July fireworks laser show, demonstrates that people will flock to even the current flawed Square if there are interesting things for them, their families to do.

 

Also, have we seriously thought about what to do/how to integrate the huge Soldiers & Sailors Monument ? (hello Postively Cleveland!!, like we've got this amazing, free Civil War museum on our front lawn and, yet, we barely hear/read anything about it -- END OF RANT).  Do we keep S&SM and integrate it into the new PS/park (probably), or figure out how to dismantle and move it (unlikely, even though it would free up much space)? 

 

We have now, and have always had lots of plans (I'm unfortunately old enough to remember the rather bizarre Halperin plan of the late 1970s with its underground parking under the Square and ramps to reach it).  I'm NOT in favor of one of those classic Cleveland decades-long paralysis-by-analysis studies we're so unfortunately good at (ie, how should we best extend the Rapid?  What's the best usage for the lakefront?  Where should we move he County Admin employees?  What's the best building for the hole on Public Square?... for the sea/surface parking in the WHD? yadda, yadda, yadda!)....  But I do think that we need to (expeditoiusly) consider various scenarios, pick the best, and get it done!

Why would we need to move the S&SM??  IIRC, it's a national historic site and cannot be moved.  A design scheme can be created with it in it's current location.  Another issue is how to integrate the one County owned quadrant with the three city owned. 

I don't understand the obsession over combining the squares into one space. I like how each has it's own style and design. I would entertain the idea of thinning the roadways so they aren't 5+ lanes wide. But closing even one of them? How about spending some of that money for more streetscaping, lights, trees, etc, or repaving the horrific streets.

 

Because in this day and age with downtown Cleveland growing, more so into a preferred place to live for residents; renewed interest from corporations and is the center of NE Ohio's tourist trade.  This is the perfect time to correct something that is wrong, that will increase the quality of life in the heart of the city for decades to come.

 

This one project - on what many believe is Cleveland's front door - which is one of many downtown, that can make Downtown Cleveland better - real and perceived.  This will create a better connection between TC and NCH.  And create another "destination" for people visiting and who live in the WHD, East Bank, East 4th.  People need more to do than just go to the casino, have a meal or go to a game and the head home.  This will give them something to see and enjoy.

 

This is a step into making Cleveland a better place for Cleveland and those who visit.

^For real.

 

^^Totally cool if anyone disagrees with the road closures, but I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could use words like "knee-jerk" and "jumping in" given the long, slow, meticulous planning process that's been going on...

 

First, I'm all in favor of redeveloping the Square, I don't know where you got the idea I'm against it.  Certainly the current cut up, wide-road, ped-unfriendly PS sucks.  Secondly, and more importantly, I mean by "knee jerk" the sudden interest immediate redevelopment based on the Marine Week closure.  That we need to carefully consider the alternatives and not just send in the dump trucks with soil and sod to dump. 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were against redevelopment, I guess I was just a little puzzled by your comments.  The city has been carefully studying, planning and putting together a team to plan implementation for a few years now.  This process has nothing to do with the Marine Week closure.  Given the resources available, I think the city, LAND studio and the others involved have been doing a pretty awesome job of exploring different concepts, understanding the practical implications (the traffic study) and narrowing the menu of options accordingly, and I guess I've just assumed they've been thinking about the same kinds of questions you listed in your post the whole time.  I'm really excited to see the more refined concepts Corner is set to deliver in a few months.

Because in this day and age with downtown Cleveland growing, more so into a preferred place to live for residents; renewed interest from corporations and is the center of NE Ohio's tourist trade.  This is the perfect time to correct something that is wrong, that will increase the quality of life in the heart of the city for decades to come.

 

This one project - on what many believe is Cleveland's front door - which is one of many downtown, that can make Downtown Cleveland better - real and perceived.  This will create a better connection between TC and NCH.  And create another "destination" for people visiting and who live in the WHD, East Bank, East 4th.  People need more to do than just go to the casino, have a meal or go to a game and the head home.  This will give them something to see and enjoy.

 

This is a step into making Cleveland a better place for Cleveland and those who visit.

I think we can all agree there is potential to clean up PS. Where we disagree is just how to do it. :) One of the things I love about the city is its accessibility. Getting into, around, and out of the city is easy. Closing Down a throughway that connects two major routes hurts that accessibility.

^Of all the reasons for or against closing streets through Public Square,  getting in and out of town would be about 100 on my list.

Has anyone noticed the bottleneck at virtually every intersection downtown this week? It must be caused by closing Ontario and Superior for Marine Week.  Is this what we can expect if Public Square is turned into a giant park with no cross roads?

 

Indians game Marine week and rush hour traffic on friday, the The "chaos" lasted for about and hour drvien by people from Pittsburgh and other visitor's unfamiliar with the area.

 

The problem is we need to better educate people on the utter absence of congestion in our region and simply because an event or two causes congestion for a short period of time does not mean we need to build more lanes, more parking lots and convert a parking into and roadway.

 

Downtown Cleveland needs to Become more welcoming to pedestrians, cyclist and public transportation and less accommodating to people in cars.

 

You cannot have a walkable vibrant downtown, and 7 lanes of endless car traffic, with the required acres and acres of parking.

 

It is time to make the right choice, and choose people over the  automobile. cleveland will never be Strongsville, or Westlake.

 

^ If you were in charge of transportation, and funding for it ;), we would be far better off! HA!

Because in this day and age with downtown Cleveland growing, more so into a preferred place to live for residents; renewed interest from corporations and is the center of NE Ohio's tourist trade.  This is the perfect time to correct something that is wrong, that will increase the quality of life in the heart of the city for decades to come.

 

This one project - on what many believe is Cleveland's front door - which is one of many downtown, that can make Downtown Cleveland better - real and perceived.  This will create a better connection between TC and NCH.  And create another "destination" for people visiting and who live in the WHD, East Bank, East 4th.  People need more to do than just go to the casino, have a meal or go to a game and the head home.  This will give them something to see and enjoy.

 

This is a step into making Cleveland a better place for Cleveland and those who visit.

I think we can all agree there is potential to clean up PS. Where we disagree is just how to do it. :) One of the things I love about the city is its accessibility. Getting into, around, and out of the city is easy. Closing Down a throughway that connects two major routes hurts that accessibility. 

 

So the city should cater to the auto?  Cleveland unlike most major cities has a ton of major through ways.  People will adjust and take alternative streets and avenues.  Just because people here are conditioned to doing things one way and will be temporarily inconvenienced, they will adapt new ways of travel.  If this were up to me, I would eliminate Superior and Ontario and reduced the outer roadways to 2 lanes, with the exception of TC.

 

People can take Prospect, Huron, St. Clair or Lakeside.  This is for the better of the city.  People will need to get over it!