^Certainly not while the 're-doing' is underway.  Is there any group more notorious for catcalls than construction workers?

 

One thing I hope they consider in the redesign is the current "gauntlet" setup around the bus stops.  For example, take the northwest quadrant: if you're walking east to west down Superior, you have a long, marble/concrete bench to your right and multiple glass/steel bus stops to your left.  People are sitting on the bench, starring at you and the actual space to walk isn't that wide.  I could understand how some would find that intimidating.

 

 

You don't say!  People in an urban setting sitting on benches and looking at you?  Yikes!

So, who saw/live streamed the presentation at the City Club earlier tonight?  What did you think?

 

I thought the comment from the woman from S&S monument group was downright odd and borderline aggressive.  She defensively told everyone that the southeast quadrant was owned by Cuyahoga County and that the designers "couldn't come in and just move the monument." (something to that effect)  As if that was even on the table?  I think James Corner's group has done a great job highlighting and even paying homage to the monument in their plans.  I don't think alternations, even superficial ones, have been proposed to the S&S monument.

 

She seemed to be gearing up for some kind of turf war over land ownership - I hope this process does not devolve into that.

^So did anybody reply and basically tell her that and put her in her place?

So if we spend 60 million redoing the square all the idiots who harass women will just disappear? 

 

The budget is $30 million. The $60m figure includes the work on the Mall and the pedestrian bridge to North Coast Harbor.

 

Good design can have positive effects, but won't cure 100% of the evils.

So, who saw/live streamed the presentation at the City Club earlier tonight?  What did you think?

 

I thought the comment from the woman from S&S monument group was downright odd and borderline aggressive.  She defensively told everyone that the southeast quadrant was owned by Cuyahoga County and that the designers "couldn't come in and just move the monument." (something to that effect)  As if that was even on the table?  I think James Corner's group has done a great job highlighting and even paying homage to the monument in their plans.  I don't think alternations, even superficial ones, have been proposed to the S&S monument.

 

She seemed to be gearing up for some kind of turf war over land ownership - I hope this process does not devolve into that.

 

It is worse than you described. The woman who spoke is Ellen Connally--the President of Cuyahoga County Council! She seemed in threaten to inject some odd political agenda into a situation where it would benefit no one. While there is no intention to move the monument in the plans, she needs to get her facts straight on what the county owns. She made County Council look bad in so many ways. Also, she ought to know that the City owns all 4 quadrants and that the County owns the memorial but has no say over how the rest of the land is used in that quadrant.  It has a long term lease that allows the SS monument to be there, but nothing more.

How is the reconstruction of public square is gentrification?!

 

How can the reconstruction of a public park, that will remain a public park, be considered gentrification?  The motivations of the group plan commission are to create a nicer, cleaner, and better managed public park with the potential to attract more private investment.  If you are worried that this will drive those with lesser means away...should we keep the park the underused, fragmented, crappy space that it is now?

 

Also, how is building a luxury condo building on the most expensive piece of real estate in Cleveland that is now a parking lot gentrification?  Who is it displacing?  Cars?

 

This gentrification hand-wringing is out of control.

 

Yes it is gentrification. If the rumors on here are true and the Jacobs property and PS redesign are linked then it will be designed specifically to keep the poorest parts of the public out despite being a "public" park. This has action has been repeated over and over in other cities. It's not about the parking lot, it's about getting as many "unseemly" folks out of the square for a developer.

 

My issue is that PS is more than a park. It is the center of Cleveland and it's named PUBLIC square.

 

This "crappy" place was a successful open area of the 6th largest city in the US at one time. It's surrounded by the most iconic buildings in the city. Instead of trying to turn it into part of a lifestyle center for an possible luxury condo complex why not just look at the practices that made it a successful urban center in the past.  There was a time, not so long ago, that people had pride about PS. It's like Cleveland's history is being forgotten here.

How is the reconstruction of public square is gentrification?!

 

How can the reconstruction of a public park, that will remain a public park, be considered gentrification?  The motivations of the group plan commission are to create a nicer, cleaner, and better managed public park with the potential to attract more private investment.  If you are worried that this will drive those with lesser means away...should we keep the park the underused, fragmented, crappy space that it is now?

 

Also, how is building a luxury condo building on the most expensive piece of real estate in Cleveland that is now a parking lot gentrification?  Who is it displacing?  Cars?

 

This gentrification hand-wringing is out of control.

 

Yes it is gentrification. If the rumors on here are true and the Jacobs property and PS redesign are linked then it will be designed specifically to keep the poorest parts of the public out despite being a "public" park.

 

Unless public square is gated, guarded, and requires proof of income in order to enter, this will in no way prevent low income residents from visiting the square.

How is the reconstruction of public square is gentrification?!

 

How can the reconstruction of a public park, that will remain a public park, be considered gentrification?  The motivations of the group plan commission are to create a nicer, cleaner, and better managed public park with the potential to attract more private investment.  If you are worried that this will drive those with lesser means away...should we keep the park the underused, fragmented, crappy space that it is now?

 

Also, how is building a luxury condo building on the most expensive piece of real estate in Cleveland that is now a parking lot gentrification?  Who is it displacing?  Cars?

 

This gentrification hand-wringing is out of control.

 

Yes it is gentrification. If the rumors on here are true and the Jacobs property and PS redesign are linked then it will be designed specifically to keep the poorest parts of the public out despite being a "public" park.

 

Unless public square is gated, guarded, and requires proof of income in order to enter, this will in no way prevent low income residents from visiting the square.

 

That's simply not true. There are plenty of subtle ways to move people off the square without gates.

If we have nice things people of lesser means won't feel welcome. 

 

Is that the argument?

 

There are a lot of thoughts in my head, but three of them would be:

  -there is an assumption that all transit riders are poor, that's false

  -great public institutions of this city like the CMA and library are open to all

    -finally, this nation's care for the mentally ill is deplorable.  But saying you want the heart of the city safe for all to enjoy is not fundamentally classist or evil.  If mentally ill homeless are escorted away it's not right, but neither is letting them wander the square. 

 

If we have nice things people of lesser means won't feel welcome. 

 

Is that the argument?

 

There are a lot of thoughts in my head, but three of them would be:

  -there is an assumption that all transit riders are poor, that's false

  -great public institutions of this city like the CMA and library are open to all

    -finally, this nation's care for the mentally ill is deplorable.  But saying you want the heart of the city safe for all to enjoy is not fundamentally classist or evil.  If mentally ill homeless are escorted away it's not right, but neither is letting them wander the square. 

 

 

Believe what you want but I never made those arguments you are claiming. I never made any assertion about transit.

Folks, most of you have been around long enough to know when you're taking a thread off-topic and when it's time to take the discussion offline. We have a private messaging system, please use it.

Leaving out the "g word" that probably doesn't apply here and almost certainly needs its own thread, this isn't something that's hypothetical.  New York City has experienced it.

 

The question is do we want PS to be like Times Square before Giuliani, or after?

Yes it is gentrification. If the rumors on here are true and the Jacobs property and PS redesign are linked then it will be designed specifically to keep the poorest parts of the public out despite being a "public" park. This has action has been repeated over and over in other cities. It's not about the parking lot, it's about getting as many "unseemly" folks out of the square for a developer.

 

My issue is that PS is more than a park. It is the center of Cleveland and it's named PUBLIC square.

 

This "crappy" place was a successful open area of the 6th largest city in the US at one time. It's surrounded by the most iconic buildings in the city. Instead of trying to turn it into part of a lifestyle center for an possible luxury condo complex why not just look at the practices that made it a successful urban center in the past.  There was a time, not so long ago, that people had pride about PS. It's like Cleveland's history is being forgotten here.

 

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 

The designs, although not final, are public - have you looked at them?.  What about the designs keep the poorest part of the public out of the park?  Can you point them out?  You allude to the subtle tactics to keep the poor people out of public space: what are they and do you know of any being applied here?

 

Furthermore, the successful practices that made it the successful park space it was was a focus on open space and transit.  Both of these are being preserved and the total publicly available open space is even being expanded.  Can you show me where the new concept deviates from the fundamental interests the park has always served?

 

What about the plan will turn this into a luxury condo "lifestyle center" and not a public park?  What is a "lifestyle center?"

Yes it is gentrification. If the rumors on here are true and the Jacobs property and PS redesign are linked then it will be designed specifically to keep the poorest parts of the public out despite being a "public" park. This has action has been repeated over and over in other cities. It's not about the parking lot, it's about getting as many "unseemly" folks out of the square for a developer.

 

My issue is that PS is more than a park. It is the center of Cleveland and it's named PUBLIC square.

 

This "crappy" place was a successful open area of the 6th largest city in the US at one time. It's surrounded by the most iconic buildings in the city. Instead of trying to turn it into part of a lifestyle center for an possible luxury condo complex why not just look at the practices that made it a successful urban center in the past.  There was a time, not so long ago, that people had pride about PS. It's like Cleveland's history is being forgotten here.

 

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 

The designs, although not final, are public - have you looked at them?.  What about the designs keep the poorest part of the public out of the park?  Can you point them out?  You allude to the subtle tactics to keep the poor people out of public space: what are they and do you know of any being applied here?

 

Furthermore, the successful practices that made it the successful park space it was was a focus on open space and transit.  Both of these are being preserved and the total publicly available open space is even being expanded.  Can you show me where the new concept deviates from the fundamental interests the park has always served?

 

What about the plan will turn this into a luxury condo "lifestyle center" and not a public park?  What is a "lifestyle center?"

 

It's not a matter of keeping poor people out.  It's a matter of keeping out people who can't behave themselves, for whatever reason.  Or at least minimizing their impact.  That's a legitimate goal.

^I agree 100% that that is a legitimate goal.  I am just wondering what elements of the proposed redesign are meant to exclude the poor, as AmrapinVA seems to assert without substantiation.

I think it is more about making the space inviting to more types of potential users.

Yep.

Well, SixthCity, everyone knows that making places new and clean keeps the poor away because they would much rather prefer to visit dirty, urine soaked places.  (end sarcasm)

I would imagine that given the purchase of the Standard building, due to the anticipated Public Square renovation that interest in empty retail spaces around Public Square will be filled once construction starts. The area that should benefit the most is the side of Ontario opposite of the Horseshoe Casino, that side while it has some restaurants, has an erie feel to it at night in certain sections. I would imagine that a business that caters to the late night crowd would go there to truly give the area a 24 hour feel.

Regarding the Standard Building purchase in anticipation of the Public Square renovation, can anyone on this board remember when spin off developments happened before earth was moved (with the possible exception of Gateway)?

 

All if my life the community has invested in projects that would hopefully have spin off developments in the future.

 

Cleveland has changed.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/41390387/14_0623_Public%20Presentation_Final.pdf

 

This was the presentation from The City Club  from James Corner.  The only issue I have is when Superior is open to traffic how does one cross or not cross?. I do not see any traffic signals

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/41390387/14_0623_Public%20Presentation_Final.pdf

 

This was the presentation from The City Club  from James Corner.  The only issue I have is when Superior is open to traffic how does one cross or not cross?. I do not see any traffic signals

 

 

Very nice. I still contend there is not enough food available, there should be several cafes not just one. Especially given the mostly dead zone surrounding. Still this proposal is a momentous improvement.

 

The thing that irks me is the look of Superior Ave through the Square. It's aesthetically divisive; the concrete looks awful and it visually breaks Public Square into two parts. All of Superior Ave within the square should be pavers. Keep the concrete on the periphery.

The food issue can be taken care of my issuing food cart licenses, and having ample places to eat and drink.

 

There are many traffic calming strategies they can use, it should be set up as a pederstrian zone that a vehicle is trying to traverse.

 

I live in NOLA, and I see that on Bourbon and Royal streets every week.  Cars have to move at a pedestrian pace

Thanks for posting the pdf, it was great to see the extra detail in the plans. One thing I didn't fully realize until I looked at the plan was that there will be six RTA stops in the middle of the square/park on Superior. That's a lot. Hopefully at some point they will revisit this decision.

I'm not sure I agree with the hill that is illustrated best on page 40 of the presentation posted above.  The hill will naturally take away some land area, along with the openness.  If the park was a bit bigger, I could see it, but not sure it will work well here.  Overall, I think it's a vast improvement.  In addition, I am almost 100% confident that because this is moving forward, a tower crane will be in the lot west of the square by May of 2016  :lol:.

I think the Public Square re-do will be catalytic. In fact I believe it already is. Weston cited it as a reason for buying a half-occupied Standard Building for residential conversion. That's relatively low-hanging fruit. The tougher projects may be yet to come.

^^The hills will be usable though, for lounging or picnicking or whatever, so I don't think they're really "taking away" land area any more than any other lawn would.  That said, I go back and forth on them based on what they do to the site lines at the NW and NE corner and the view lines from within the park.

Looks like a big announcement is scheduled for tomorrow...

 

Please Join the Group Plan Commission

for a special announcement about Public Square

Tuesday, July 15, 2014

10:00 a.m.

Southwest Quadrant of Public Square

RSVP – [email protected]

(rain plan to be announced in case of inclement weather)

The Cleveland Foundation will make an 8m dollar donation to the Group Plan Commission. Which will most likely set this in motion soon.

The Cleveland Foundation announces an $8 million grant for the revamp of Public Square that could spur a late 2014 groundbreaking

 

The Cleveland Foundation today plans to announce an $8 million donation for the proposed re-do of Public Square in downtown Cleveland that could propel the project toward a construction start late this year and completion in 2016.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/the_cleveland_foundation_annou.html#incart_river_default

The Cleveland Foundation announces an $8 million grant for the revamp of Public Square that could spur a late 2014 groundbreaking

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/the_cleveland_foundation_annou.html#incart_river_default

 

In addition to the makeover of Public Square, the Group Plan Commission aims to add landscaping enhancements to the Mall, the 12.5-acre green roof of the city's new convention center, plus a pedestrian walkway from the northeast corner of the Mall to attractions at North Coast Harbor.

 

Paris said that $25 million has been raised to date for the pedestrian bridge, including $10 million from the city, $10 million from the county, and $5 million from the state of Ohio.

 

He said the process to seek a designer for the bridge could begin soon.

 

I know this isn't the bridge thread, but this sounds like there's hope to perhaps get something better than the current renderings.

Group plan commission announces details, first major grant for new park

TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2014

LEE CHILCOTE

 

Internationally renowned landscape architect James Corner recently unveiled his plans for Cleveland’s Public Square at the City Club. The square’s four quadrants will be connected via swaths of green space and a pathway, closing Ontario and limiting Superior to buses. It will include a water feature that will allow visitors to dip their toes in the cooling waters, sloped seating embedded in a hillside for concerts or movies, a café and natural landscaping.

 

Now, thanks to an $8 million gift from the Cleveland Foundation, the long-planned changes are one step closer to reality. LAND Studio, a local nonprofit that helps to design vibrant public spaces, will receive grant funding to help implement the Group Plan Commission’s design. The award is part of a special series of grants the foundation is making to celebrate its centennial. The south plaza of the park will be named “Cleveland Foundation Centennial Plaza.”

 

"This is important because it's the Cleveland Foundation taking a leadership role and saying this transformation is critical for the city’s future," says Jeremy Paris, Executive Director of the Group Plan Commission. "It's a way for them to impact the city for this generation and generations to come, and a validation of the work we’re trying to do. In addition, the gift itself is catalytic for our funding goals."

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/publicsquare071514.aspx

This was in place long before any RNC announcement.

https://www.honestbuildings.com/organization/#/5431/projects/80572

First rendering I have seen of the planned renovation of the atrium space.  Not sure ifI am a fan of the removal of the planters.

200 Public Square

Public Sq

Cleveland, OH 44114

Westlake Reed Leskosky developed a concept design for new signage/wayfinding and re-imaging of the eight-story atrium and public/retail space for this 41- story office building on Public Square in the heart of Cleveland’s Central Business District. The new concept calls for the removal of existing planters in the atrium in order to make the space usable for gatherings and events.

 

WRL is also designing a new 5,400 SF casual self serve eatery for Zach Bruell, one of the City’s top chefs and owner of numerous other upscale Cleveland restaurants. The design of the space is intended to complement the building’s elegant characteristics and to capture the flavor of the great turn-of-the-century urban food markets, where distinctly urban materials and details balanced the grandeur of a distinguished central hall.

 

Owner: Harbor Group International, LLC

 

Among the posts removed were references to Boston Commons, free wifi vs. paid wifi, Old Brooklyn wifi, 'what constitutes a personal attack', the RNC 2016 ... really folks? Are we asking too much to ask yourselves "is this post staying on topic?" and more importantly "is this post SO profound I simply MUST post it!"?

 

In the video, Debbie Donley, owner of Vocon Architects, describes it as a "truly iconic building."

 

Give me a break.

What building/video are you referring to?

^^That quote refers to the Ferrari building, not Public Square redesign

The Gund Foundation donates $5 million for Public Square makeover, bringing the total raised so far to $13 million

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

on July 24, 2014 at 8:20 AM, updated July 24, 2014 at 8:33 AM

 

The Gund Foundation added its financial might to the proposed $30 million makeover of Public Square on Wednesday when its board OK'd a $5 million gift to the project.

 

The grant follows by one week an $8 million gift from the Cleveland Foundation, part of which is a $1 million matching grant intended to leverage an additional $7 million in non-government donations.

 

The Gund Foundation gift will fill part of the matching challenge issued by the Cleveland Foundation, said Jeremy Paris, executive director of the non-profit Group Plan Commission, the civic organization guiding the renewal of major public spaces in downtown Cleveland.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/gund_foundation_donates_5_mill.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Money!

The Gund Foundation donates $5 million for Public Square makeover, bringing the total raised so far to $13 million

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

on July 24, 2014 at 8:20 AM, updated July 24, 2014 at 8:33 AM

 

The Gund Foundation added its financial might to the proposed $30 million makeover of Public Square on Wednesday when its board OK'd a $5 million gift to the project.

 

The grant follows by one week an $8 million gift from the Cleveland Foundation, part of which is a $1 million matching grant intended to leverage an additional $7 million in non-government donations.

 

The Gund Foundation gift will fill part of the matching challenge issued by the Cleveland Foundation, said Jeremy Paris, executive director of the non-profit Group Plan Commission, the civic organization guiding the renewal of major public spaces in downtown Cleveland.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/gund_foundation_donates_5_mill.html#incart_m-rpt-1

So, I remember there was money left over from the CC/MM project that was supposed to be split for the convention center project and the Public Square redesign, where is that money?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/gund_foundation_donates_5_mill.html#incart_related_stories

 

EDIT: UGH, there are so many bus stops on this square! Honestly keeping these bus stops are a mistake, I would move the bus stops that are on Ontario and on Superior to either the stop on Superior right before you touch the square, or right where the old stone church bus stop is. It's still close to the square without having people loiter around the square.

I don't mind the bus stops, I haven't fully looked at the plans, but based on what they are saying they want to do, the stops on Superior will have to be relocated.  There are very few people that work ON the square itself, so I can see bus tops moved to streets just before buses enter the square.

Closing Superior and extending those smaller tree lined paths would be perfect.

"Loiter around the square"?  What are we supposed to do on a public square?

^Well apparently there are "good" loiters (you know people that look a certain way...like me :wink:) and then there are "bad" loiters (you know the ones who don't look a certain way).

"Loiter around the square"?  What are we supposed to do on a public square?

Loiter the square by just causing a ruckus and not actually there to enjoy the square but end up detracting people from it like what happens now. Just reality.

^ Exactly. The square should be place to enjoy, not a crowded bus stop. And I feel like we play this whole "what do you mean??? (insinuating racism)" game atleast one a day on here.

^Well apparently there are "good" loiters (you know people that look a certain way...like me :wink:) and then there are "bad" loiters (you know the ones who don't look a certain way).

....No I'm talking about ANYONE that just hang on the square causing a ruckus detracting people from wanting to hang on the square which happens now, especially people who have to deal with the cat calls etc which makes people uncomfortable. I don't like the square being one big bus stop anyhow. I'm not considering people that look like me being "bad" loiters. (I feel like you're implying young minorities as bad loiters). I only look at people in general that just cause commotion as detractors from the square which is reality especially when it makes patrons uncomfortable. I will walk the square but because of the commotion a good number of people won't touch it.

^ Exactly. The square should be place to enjoy, not a crowded bus stop. And I feel like we play this whole "what do you mean??? (insinuating racism)" game atleast one a day on here.

That's all I'm saying, I feel like the square being a big crowded bus stop is not a good idea, and the bus stops can be placed in an area that is very close to the square without actually being on it (Old Stone Church bus stop, and on Superior right next to the federal reserve I believe, right across the street from 200 public square). First of all it's not attractive to have it on the square also for some people it serves as a detractor. Also yes I've noticed that as well and it's frustrating.