August 19, 201410 yr Demolish the Renaissance Parking garage and build the transit center there. Fill in the entire lot, build a new garage for the hotel, and provide a direct, indoor connection from the busses to the rail. Best option.
August 19, 201410 yr My preferred design, which was never considered, would have been reducing the overall surface area of the park setting, and create a traffic circle out of the square. Bus service could have been on the outside lane of the circle with two interior traffic lanes. This would cut out all signalization, and drop riders off infront of the buildings they wanted to be at. It would also keep people waiting for the bus out of the park setting, and on the outside sidewalks. It would have eased flow moving from the north south points, and would have given us one contiguous park in the center of the circle. Overall, the reduction in the park would not have to be that great to construct this.
August 19, 201410 yr If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue. Why?
August 19, 201410 yr Author Hopefully a westside transportation center is in the future. The eastside center works great. Just build something like that and take a lot of the bus traffic away from PS. Because that's really the issue here, bus traffic. If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue. West Side transit center is dead. Again. If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue. Why? Because one streetcar can take at least several buses off the street. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 19, 201410 yr Hopefully a westside transportation center is in the future. The eastside center works great. Just build something like that and take a lot of the bus traffic away from PS. Because that's really the issue here, bus traffic. If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue. West Side transit center is dead. Again. Did you hear this recently?
August 19, 201410 yr I wish people would start living in reality about this plan. It's so vastly better than what we have now, and people are still moaning. Its $30 million. We shouldn't just accept ok, since its better than terrible. We should demand a great design. Having the park still cut into two and divided by a wall of bus stops is not a great design and will function terribly. Also we havent learned how the whole central crosswalk will work I'm not accepting ok. I'm accepting this design which is incalculably better than terrible. I love this design. This is actually a much better plan than I ever expected. This is exactly what Cleveland needed to revitalize and connect this area with the rest of downtown. Also, as was stated in the article, the option does exist, in the future, to shut the roads to buses completely.
August 19, 201410 yr If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue. Why? Because everybody loves them some streetcars...where you been?
August 19, 201410 yr Aside from any cultural prejudices against buses and their riders, streetcars really are a lot more pleasant to be around. Quieter and emission-free.
August 19, 201410 yr you'll still be able to cross superior with almost no trouble. its not like there will be a fleet of buses blowing through the square at forty miles per hour. there will be a few there at a time, moving slowly. Lets not act like its the Berlin wall
August 20, 201410 yr I assume Superior will be open to both vehicular and bus traffic. Is that correct? If so, this is two parks in my opinion the way it is currently planned.
August 20, 201410 yr gotribe[/member] if I remember correctly, only buses will be allowed through the square. Who knows if it will be enforced though.
August 20, 201410 yr It's well documented that traffic will be limited to buses so no concerns there... In general (not exclusive to this forum), the questions posed about bus traffic insinuate that there will be a high speed steel death trap cutting through a peaceful park... Has no one crossed a street before? The PD comments about 6 and 9 year old children being flattened by buses are laughable. #SMH
August 20, 201410 yr It's well documented that traffic will be limited to buses so no concerns there... In general (not exclusive to this forum), the questions posed about bus traffic insinuate that there will be a high speed steel death trap cutting through a peaceful park... Has no one crossed a street before? The PD comments about 6 and 9 year old children being flattened by buses are laughable. #SMH At least it will match the 'pedestrian death trap' built over there on Prospect for the Casino's new parking garage.
August 21, 201410 yr West prospect and Huron are great options to provide access to rail. Greater than the connection you would get at Superior. You could also put bus stops on East Roadway in front of 200 Public Square and the Old Courthouse. More stops can be on West Roadway in front of the parking lot, the Renaissance, and the Horseshoe. RTA has already started doing this. Some bus routes have been moved off the square, like the 22. Of coarse they will still travel through, but as has already been noted, it's not going to be a constant stream of buses.
August 22, 201410 yr It's well documented that traffic will be limited to buses so no concerns there... In general (not exclusive to this forum), the questions posed about bus traffic insinuate that there will be a high speed steel death trap cutting through a peaceful park... Has no one crossed a street before? The PD comments about 6 and 9 year old children being flattened by buses are laughable. #SMH I like you!
August 28, 201410 yr Author The Public Square debate: RTA's Joe Calabrese is "cautiously optimistic," but seeks info about the impact of a redesign on bus transit By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer on August 28, 2014 at 8:30 AM, updated August 28, 2014 at 8:35 AM As Cleveland mobilizes to complete a sweeping makeover of Public Square in time for the Republican National Convention in 2016, questions linger over whether bus transit in the 10-acre civic space in the heart of downtown would be negatively affected by the project. For that reason, Joe Calabrese, the CEO and General Manager of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, is reserving final judgment. He's not saying he's against the plan. But he's also saying that a great many issues need to be clarified before RTA can sign off, figuratively speaking. READ MORE AT: http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/08/the_public_square_debate_rtas.html#incart_m-rpt-1 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 201410 yr Author This morning I got into a conversation with PD columnist Robert Smith.... Robert L. Smith @rlsmithpd 2h Should CLE Public Square be a park or a bus depot? RTA wary of change. @steven_litt explores debate http://s.cleveland.com/kcFCTuf Ken Prendergast @KennyPeepers 2h @rlsmithpd @steven_litt They're not mutually exclusive. It's been both transit hub & park since the Civil War. Transit+parks=sense of place. Robert L. Smith @rlsmithpd 1h @KennyPeepers @steven_litt 4,000 buses a day does not imbue a sense of place Ken. Ken Prendergast @KennyPeepers 1h @rlsmithpd @steven_litt In most of the civilzed world it does. Did we suddenly wake up & notice PS has been Cle's transit hub for 150 yrs? All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio 1h @rlsmithpd @steven_litt PS 1910. Transit serving common point makes transfers less confusing. Yes, a sense of place! pic.twitter.com/eKOO4zomlg All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio · 45m Stop treating transit, riders like pests. Recognize them for the city builders & sustainers they are. @rlsmithpd @steven_litt @alisonkgrant All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio 34m Note where $5.5B in Cleveland development is happening & why: http://allaboardohio.org/2014/08/22/5-5-billion-in-development-built-or-announced-since-2012-wwith-2000-feet-of-cleveland-railbrt-lines/ … @rlsmithpd @steven_litt mjarboe[/member] @alisonkgrant Robert L. Smith @rlsmithpd 25m @AllAboardOhio @steven_litt mjarboe[/member] @alisonkgrant and the great public spaces of Europe. Who has 4,000 buses coming through the commons? All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio 10m @rlsmithpd @steven_litt @alisonkgrant Piccadilly Circus, Place Charles de Gaulle, Potsdamer Platz, Piazza Venezia. Healthy cities = traffic. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 201410 yr hey ken Tell Litt. Healthy cities = People not "traffic" People Hear traffic and they think 2 things cars and bad.....people are neither. words matter. even if he means foot traffic....get the words right or nobody will ever be on your side.
August 28, 201410 yr Author hey ken Tell Litt. Healthy cities = People not "traffic" People Hear traffic and they think 2 things cars and bad.....people are neither. words matter. even if he means foot traffic....get the words right or nobody will ever be on your side. The right words to you aren't necessarily the right words to someone else. Traffic to me means car traffic, bus traffic, pedestrian traffic, air traffic -- anything that can be massed and counted. What we value is considered good. What we don't is considered bad. If we don't value transit, then bus traffic is considered bad. And that's what the problem is here -- especially if we value a healthy, vibrant city. Show me a vibrant city and I will show you a city that has traffic. All kinds of traffic. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 201410 yr The word means bad things to every day people...Not RTA GM's or urban planners or the head of All aboard ohio or people up to speed on the issues like here. "Normal" People: Traffic = cars + bad. There are traffic reports and traffic warnings and traffic helicopters. Traffic makes people's days longer and more miserable. People love people....people hate traffic. So keep using it....and keep wondering why you cant win the public over to your smart common sense ideas. (that I fully agree with and endorse) this is how the right wingers win the day...find the "correct" words and hammer them. Keep using "traffic" when you mean people and positive activity and you will keep wondering why your simple basic common sense ideas are DOA. I know you what you mean.. Joe and Jane suburbanites hear bad things.
August 28, 201410 yr Author "Normal person"? Never met one. Everyone is different. Some people are intimidated by "traffic." Others are energized by it. I want the latter type of people to live in my city. Ironically, if you want vehicular traffic, suburbia is where it's at. If you want pedestrian traffic, then keep the buses on Public Square. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 201410 yr I second that about transit. All great cities, especially European ones have piazzas with bus and car traffic. The main piazzas in Florence for example are loaded with bus, pedestrian and car traffic. They can coexist. https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
August 28, 201410 yr I'll just repost what I put in the cleveland.com comments. We're going to have this argument as long as people of Greater Cleveland view those that ride the bus as part of the problem. Tens of thousands of people come through PS daily. Some by choice, some entirely out of necessity. I hear a lot of gnashing of teeth by people that will likely never set foot in PS regardless of it being a transit hub or not. So why are we listening to them when designing a new public space? If you want peace and quiet, walk 2 blocks to Mall B and C. Virtually no bus and car traffic. Besides you'll get a great view of the city looking south back toward Tower City. Closing Ontario and turning PS into two unique spaces sounds like the perfect compromise.
August 28, 201410 yr KJP, could you please clarify something... The article and the tweets referenced above say "RTA currently runs about 4,000 buses through the square daily" Is that accurate? That would seem to mean that there are more than two unique bus visits thru the square every minute of the day. Am I just misunderstanding this horribly?
August 28, 201410 yr "Normal person"? Never met one. Everyone is different. Some people are intimidated by "traffic." Others are energized by it. I want the latter type of people to live in my city. Ironically, if you want vehicular traffic, suburbia is where it's at. If you want pedestrian traffic, then keep the buses on Public Square. Just Like "Train to city" <> RTA. The first "normal people" understand. The second means nothing to almost everybody. KJP you are correct and also horribly wrong. Traffic is good in your sense/usage. People hear traffic and they have a visceral reaction.
August 28, 201410 yr Author KJP, could you please clarify something... The article and the tweets referenced above say "RTA currently runs about 4,000 buses through the square daily" Is that accurate? That would seem to mean that there are more than two unique bus visits thru the square every minute of the day. Am I just misunderstanding this horribly? It might be correct. That is, it doesn't sound inaccurate. However, I would defer to GCRTA on the accuracy that stat. Just Like "Train to city" <> RTA. The first "normal people" understand. The second means nothing to almost everybody. KJP you are correct and also horribly wrong. Traffic is good in your sense/usage. People hear traffic and they have a visceral reaction. If a good/bad, normal/abnormal, black/white, right/wrong viewpoint helps you make sense of any incredibly complex, chaotic city, then good for you. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 201410 yr This conversation has gotten ridiculous. People are disagreeing which is fine, but there is no need for said people to be condescending. It makes it really hard to take either side seriously.
August 29, 201410 yr I'm surprised that Mr Litt is for making downtown Cleveland into Crocker Park. What's next? Designing low-rise concrete buidings for CSU?
August 29, 201410 yr Beyond tunneling under the Square and putting an underground bus terminal there (which would be ungodly expensive if not impossible with all the infrastructure that's down there) there's really no way to take away the buses and other traffic without seriously altering the transit routes. The buses are there to stay unfortunately. :?
August 30, 201410 yr Beyond tunneling under the Square and putting an underground bus terminal there (which would be ungodly expensive if not impossible with all the infrastructure that's down there) there's really no way to take away the buses and other traffic without seriously altering the transit routes. The buses are there to stay unfortunately. :? they can build the bus tunnel under public square while they are building my detroit-superior fantasy subway line from around the corner to lake view cemetery. hey, if los angeles can do these things keep hope alive!
August 30, 201410 yr KJP, could you please clarify something... The article and the tweets referenced above say "RTA currently runs about 4,000 buses through the square daily" Is that accurate? That would seem to mean that there are more than two unique bus visits thru the square every minute of the day. Am I just misunderstanding this horribly? That's certainly probable. I work for Metro in Cincinnati and we have 12,000 bus departures from Government Square every weekday.
August 30, 201410 yr ^^^Actually, now that I mention Cincinnati...all of these departures happen on a relatively small piece of land immediately adjacent to the city's public square. It works pretty well. I'm sure Public Square could be redesigned with buses using a well designed transit center in a corner of the square so that it's separate, but accessible from the rest of the square's activities.
August 30, 201410 yr I feel like you all are debating the pros and cons of adding another 20 stories onto the convention center hotel. Carry on, I guess
September 10, 201410 yr I was thinking about this the other day, in a hypthetical sense. Probably way to advanced in the planning stages for anything to change. What if the city decided to aquire the WHD parking lot bound by W3rd an 6th, closed Frankfort, and relocated PS here. Frankfort would not be missed one bit. This would allow Ontario and Superior to remain open, and would also give the city the option to lease the current PS parcels to developers for development opportunities. The revenue generated off those leases of the current PS parcels should most certainly cover the expense of purchasing the lots from Weston (or Ashers). I feel that a PS at this location would also be a little more vibrant given that there are currently restaurants and apartments around this lot versus 9 to 5 office buildings. Thoughts?
September 10, 201410 yr Ehh, a bit too speculative but maybe an idea for a new thread in a different section? :-) clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
September 10, 201410 yr Author GCRTA chimes in with its own web page on Public Square.... Greater Cleve RTA @GCRTA 1m Learn more about RTA & the proposed redesign of Public Square. http://www.riderta.com/majorprojects/publicsquare … "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 15, 201410 yr Cleveland's proposed Public Square makeover to get another financial boost By Leila Atassi, Northeast Ohio Media Group on September 15, 2014 at 6:21 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The city of Cleveland is poised to take another step toward completing the proposed $32.5 million Public Square makeover in time for the Republican National Convention's arrival in June 2016. City Council is expected to approve legislation tonight that redirects $18 million in real estate taxes from Higbee Mothership, LLC -- owner of the building that houses the Horseshoe Casino -- to help pay for the redesign of the square. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/09/clevelands_proposed_public_squ.html#incart_river
September 16, 201410 yr At the board meeting today, RTA said it expects the Phase II traffic study to be done in 2-4 weeks, so stay tuned for that.
September 25, 201410 yr Author A couple of "existing conditions" pics...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 26, 201410 yr Great pics KJP. It's easy to forget how many people wait for transit here at peak times but that second pic really highlights how much of a transit hub PS is. I was in Charlotte earlier this year an across from the arena there there's a transit hub that serves light rail and covered waiting for busses that can pull into several lanes, not unlike the Tubb-Jones center but bigger and with a food court. That facility plus this picture really makes me wish RTA could make an integrated transit center work downtown, either adjacent to Public Square as part of a development of the surface lot or part of the intermodal transit hub north of the malls. Great for riders who can wait indoors during the winter and would also leave the new Public Square to solely serve park visitors.
September 26, 201410 yr ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution.
September 26, 201410 yr ^Well, that was kind of the idea with Tower City. It just seems that the access from the trains isn't in close enough proximity to the square, or integrated enough with the buses in the square. I always compare the TC train station to 30th Street station in Philly. It's a similar setup to 30th street with the retailers etc, but it just doesn't flow quite as well. I also wish there was car rental outside TC somewhere to make it even more transit oriented. This way you could leave from the airport on the train, get downtown and get your car.
September 26, 201410 yr ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution. The next best thing: A 45 story mixed-use tower with a transit center on the ground floor in the current surface parking lot just off the west quadrant. It kills several birds with one massive stone.
September 26, 201410 yr I also wish there was car rental outside TC somewhere to make it even more transit oriented. This way you could leave from the airport on the train, get downtown and get your car. Easily walkable. Avis & budget 1717 E 9th St Hertz 1701 E 12th St Not as close, but I think they advertise that they bring the car to you.... Enterprise 1802 Superior Ave Probably the same amount of time/walk as taking that bus to the offsite car rental site. Especially since there is no easy access to 480/71. I really have no idea they didn't allow access out onto Grayton where the highways are.
September 26, 201410 yr ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution. The next best thing: A 45 story mixed-use tower with a transit center on the ground floor in the current surface parking lot just off the west quadrant. It kills several birds with one massive stone. Even better, a combination of both of those ideas. A 52 story mixed use tower and complex with underground transit center connecting the east and west sides of Cleveland. Oh Wait.... we already have that
September 26, 201410 yr Author ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution. A post-war, city-only bond issue to fund this plan was defeated in 1919 due to high interest rates, construction materials shortages, and the fact that voters felt it should be a county-wide issue was blamed for its loss..... Zoom of transit hub under Public Square: "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 201410 yr ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution. A post-war, city-only bond issue to fund this plan was defeated in 1919 due to high interest rates, construction materials shortages, and the fact that voters felt it should be a county-wide issue was blamed for its loss..... Zoom of transit hub under Public Square: I only see a subway under PS if a the Detroit-Superior brigdge transportation deck is returned to service. A line that connected to the 98-Detroit Cleveland Rapid station.
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