September 30, 201410 yr Being reported that Key Bank is donating $4MM to the project, and a portion of the square to be named Key Promenade.
September 30, 201410 yr ^Here's a link to the story on that. http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/09/public_square_renovation_gets.html#incart_m-rpt-1 KeyBank's $4 million brings the total raised for the $30 million project so far to $18 million, including $8 million from the Cleveland Foundation, $5 million from the Gund Foundation, and a previously unannounced $1 million from the Kent Hale Smith Foundation.[\quote]
September 30, 201410 yr ^I always thought it would be great to build a transit center under Public Square. I'm sure it would be technically challenging and very costly, but I also think it's the best solution. The next best thing: A 45 story mixed-use tower with a transit center on the ground floor in the current surface parking lot just off the west quadrant. It kills several birds with one massive stone. Even better, a combination of both of those ideas. A 52 story mixed use tower and complex with underground transit center connecting the east and west sides of Cleveland. Oh Wait.... we already have that True but while Tower City is great for train riders, there's no covered connection for bus riders. That forces all of the bus layovers to happen around Tower City, including on the square. That's why I think an adjacent solution for buses on the vacant PS lot, topped by a tower of course as Cleburger suggests, linked underground to Tower City and the rail station, would be a great solution. Better for the square and I'm sure bus riders would appreciate an indoor facility on rainy mornings like today or on cold snowy winter days.
September 30, 201410 yr ^Is this massively expensive, yes. But we're dreaming big as a city now and moving things forward at a great pace. We have momentum on our side so while we have it why settle? The Stark development to me shows developers are now willing to bet big downtown. Can RTA partner with one to create a mixed use facility that moves this all forward? If there's any time to get some big items checked off the Cleveland development list (lakefront development (check), riverfront development (check), convention center (check), public square and malls makeover (check), transit improvements (check?? ...aww). Let's dream big and seize on the momentum we have now. I'd love the bus transit hub built just off the square with a tower, as well as the multimodal center on the lakefront. KJP just posted how voters downed the subway 100 years ago. Different idea but 100 years later we now have the chance to get things right this time for the city we are in the 21st century. I'm less inclined to settle for a square filled with transit because that's how it's been. There's available land just to the west that could create an even better transit solution for buss and train connections while removing most buses from the square. If there's any time to dream big and get it done it's now while the city is hot.
September 30, 201410 yr ^Is this massively expensive, yes. But we're dreaming big as a city now and moving things forward at a great pace. We have momentum on our side so while we have it why settle? The Stark development to me shows developers are now willing to bet big downtown. Can RTA partner with one to create a mixed use facility that moves this all forward? If there's any time to get some big items checked off the Cleveland development list (lakefront development (check), riverfront development (check), convention center (check), public square and malls makeover (check), transit improvements (check?? ...aww). Let's dream big and seize on the momentum we have now. I'd love the bus transit hub built just off the square with a tower, as well as the multimodal center on the lakefront. KJP just posted how voters downed the subway 100 years ago. Different idea but 100 years later we now have the chance to get things right this time for the city we are in the 21st century. I'm less inclined to settle for a square filled with transit because that's how it's been. There's available land just to the west that could create an even better transit solution for buss and train connections while removing most buses from the square. If there's any time to dream big and get it done it's now while the city is hot. Im updating my idea to include an indoor, underground connection to rail. Get Dan Gilbert to incorporate it under his Phase II for the casino.
October 1, 201410 yr ^Is this massively expensive, yes. But we're dreaming big as a city now and moving things forward at a great pace. We have momentum on our side so while we have it why settle? The Stark development to me shows developers are now willing to bet big downtown. Can RTA partner with one to create a mixed use facility that moves this all forward? If there's any time to get some big items checked off the Cleveland development list (lakefront development (check), riverfront development (check), convention center (check), public square and malls makeover (check), transit improvements (check?? ...aww). Let's dream big and seize on the momentum we have now. I'd love the bus transit hub built just off the square with a tower, as well as the multimodal center on the lakefront. KJP just posted how voters downed the subway 100 years ago. Different idea but 100 years later we now have the chance to get things right this time for the city we are in the 21st century. I'm less inclined to settle for a square filled with transit because that's how it's been. There's available land just to the west that could create an even better transit solution for buss and train connections while removing most buses from the square. If there's any time to dream big and get it done it's now while the city is hot. 100 years ago? it was 1959.
October 1, 201410 yr Getting any type of rail involved would essentially kill the entire project. RTA would have to do years and years of study before it could qualify (attempt to qualify) for funds to build any rail extension. By doing that, you'd lose all your funding for Public Square as the donors gave money predicated partially on the fact that something would get done now. Too many long term plans that collect dust--avoiding that was one of the reasons why these donors gave to PS. And underground connection to rail? Do you mean to new a new rail line or to the existing Red Line? If it is the latter, then that put another put another stake into the heart of Tower City as you'd be removing all that foot traffic and helping to kill street life by putting it underground for what would be a ridiculously redundant project that would never get funded.
October 1, 201410 yr Getting any type of rail involved would essentially kill the entire project. RTA would have to do years and years of study before it could qualify (attempt to qualify) for funds to build any rail extension. By doing that, you'd lose all your funding for Public Square as the donors gave money predicated partially on the fact that something would get done now. Too many long term plans that collect dust--avoiding that was one of the reasons why these donors gave to PS. And underground connection to rail? Do you mean to new a new rail line or to the existing Red Line? If it is the latter, then that put another put another stake into the heart of Tower City as you'd be removing all that foot traffic and helping to kill street life by putting it underground for what would be a ridiculously redundant project that would never get funded. I couldn't agree more.
October 1, 201410 yr Author 100 years ago? it was 1959. He's referring to the 1919 city subway bond issue that failed, not the 1954 county subway issue that voters passed but was blocked by corrupt county commissioners. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 1, 201410 yr Author Getting any type of rail involved would essentially kill the entire project. RTA would have to do years and years of study before it could qualify (attempt to qualify) for funds to build any rail extension. By doing that, you'd lose all your funding for Public Square as the donors gave money predicated partially on the fact that something would get done now. Too many long term plans that collect dust--avoiding that was one of the reasons why these donors gave to PS. And underground connection to rail? Do you mean to new a new rail line or to the existing Red Line? If it is the latter, then that put another put another stake into the heart of Tower City as you'd be removing all that foot traffic and helping to kill street life by putting it underground for what would be a ridiculously redundant project that would never get funded. Exactly. All of this is SIM City dream stuff. The only way RTA ever does any more rail extensions is if there is an increase in county or regional taxes for transit -- or there is a sudden increase in county population and thus increase in revenue from the existing sales tax. I posted the 1919 maps to provide some "for the record" history regarding the incorporation of transit hubs on the square -- not because it offers an idea of what we could or should do with the current Public Square redesign. Back to the world of reality today, which includes some great news! KeyBank Foundation contributes $4 million to Public Square makeover effort By JAY MILLER Originally Published: September 30, 2014 3:10 PM Modified: September 30, 2014 4:07 PM The planned $32 million makeover of Public Square got a big boost today, Sept. 30, in the form of a $4 million grant from The KeyBank Foundation. It’s the first corporate donation to the Group Plan Commission overseeing the project. It’s historic in another way, since the gift is more than double the amount of any previous grant made by the KeyBank Foundation in its 45 years serving Greater Cleveland. “It will redefine the heart of our city,” said KeyCorp chairman and CEO Beth Mooney at a news conference Wednesday afternoon in the lobby of Key Tower, which overlooks Public Square. “How proud we are to have KeyBank Foundation step forward with this transformational gift.” Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson said, “This gift will set the stage for many other companies to step forward.” The Key gift brings the total raised for the Public Square redo to $27 million, $5 million short of the goal. READ MORE AT: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140930/FREE/140939922/keybank-foundation-contributes-4-million-to-public-square-makeover "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 1, 201410 yr ^ Super news. I'm excited to get this show on the road asap. Me and our mutual friend went on a walking tour of Playhouse Square and immediate areas last week. One of the things mentioned was this years holiday event (tree lighting, etc) will actually be held there at the intersection of East 14th and Euclid instead of Public Square. Is that "ASAP" enough.
October 1, 201410 yr ^ Super news. I'm excited to get this show on the road asap. Me and our mutual friend went on a walking tour of Playhouse Square and immediate areas last week. One of the things mentioned was this years holiday event (tree lighting, etc) will actually be held there at the intersection of East 14th and Euclid instead of Public Square. Is that "ASAP" enough. Nice!! p.s. they picked a good replacement locale for sure.
October 1, 201410 yr ^ Super news. I'm excited to get this show on the road asap. Me and our mutual friend went on a walking tour of Playhouse Square and immediate areas last week. One of the things mentioned was this years holiday event (tree lighting, etc) will actually be held there at the intersection of East 14th and Euclid instead of Public Square. Is that "ASAP" enough. Nice!! p.s. they picked a good replacement locale for sure. Especially since they usually have a decent sized tree there anyway and we've already seen (well some of us :cry:) that larger events can occur in that vicinity.
October 2, 201410 yr Getting any type of rail involved would essentially kill the entire project. RTA would have to do years and years of study before it could qualify (attempt to qualify) for funds to build any rail extension. By doing that, you'd lose all your funding for Public Square as the donors gave money predicated partially on the fact that something would get done now. Too many long term plans that collect dust--avoiding that was one of the reasons why these donors gave to PS. And underground connection to rail? Do you mean to new a new rail line or to the existing Red Line? If it is the latter, then that put another put another stake into the heart of Tower City as you'd be removing all that foot traffic and helping to kill street life by putting it underground for what would be a ridiculously redundant project that would never get funded. I couldn't agree more. Sorry I wasn't clear. When I said rail connection I meant if a RTA bus transit center were built on the Public Square lot there should be an underground PEDESTRIAN link to tower city and ultimately the train station. Meaning people riding the bus could transfer to the train all indoors. I'm in no way suggesting building a new train station right next to Tower City, that would be duplicative and crazy. I still think RTA can partner with a developer to incorporate what was to be the West Side Transit Center just off public square, and connect that center to tower city. I don't think this is pie in the sky at all. RTA already did planning for the West Side Transit Center, and developers are looking at building new mixed use centers (such as Stark). I think this is do-able and helps make the Public Square redo that much better by removing buses and offering transit riders indoor waiting areas.
October 2, 201410 yr Author This nearly wraps up the fundraising...... Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District approves $3 million grant for Public Square project By SCOTT SUTTELL October 02, 2014 1:30 PM The planned $32 million renovation of Public Square is moving closer to reality, as trustees of the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District today, Oct. 2, approved a $3 million grant for the project. The grant comes just two days after the KeyBank Foundation announced a $4 million gift for the Public Square makeover. The sewer district money brings the total raised for the project to $30 million, just $2 million short of the goal. Julius Ciaccia, executive director of the sewer district, said in a news release, “We’re excited to be able to connect our clean water work to the renovation of this historic, popular and heavily-travelled area.” READ MORE AT: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141002/FREE/141009954/northeast-ohio-regional-sewer-district-approves-3-million-grant-for "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201410 yr I decided to put these here since Old Stone has been a fixture on Public Sq for many decades and is an integral part of it some exterior maintenance going on, apparently started today
October 14, 201410 yr Author The other issue is Public Square and what our vacuous city planners are attempting to do that will ruin public transit in Cleveland as we have known it for about 120 years. The Group Plan Commission is envious of Campus Martius in Detroit and other similar central downtown program spaces around the country. They couldn’t care less about the buses and if the people who use the buses were to go somewhere else, so much the better. Basically, the rail hub at Tower City is the only thing that has kept the buses in downtown. However, if another station could be developed somewhere out of the way, and there was sufficient land to allow all of the buses to serve it near downtown, that would be perfect for the lobbyists working on behalf of Forest City and Dan Gilbert. Such a site is the former Norfolk Southern intermodal yards south of the Inner Belt at East 14th Street and Broadway. The thinking is going something like this: The Red Line would still go to Tower City. Basically, all the West Side buses would come down the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge, except the ones that come into downtown from north of Lorain. Those would come across the Detroit-Superior Bridge and then down Huron to Ontario. East Side buses would turn south on East 9th Street to the transit center. Buses from the southeast would go directly up Broadway to the transit center. So those who need to go to the east of downtown could hop a bus going north on East 9th Street. Anyone else would just stay on the train and go to Tower City. I suppose there could be a trolley that would run north-south and connect to the transit center, if they could find a sponsor for it. This is outrageous, but it isn’t much worse than what Akron METRO ha where all the buses run through some sections of Downtown and end up in a wasteland area south of Downtown. The area between West and East 9th Streets would be cleansed of bus passengers. It would be like downtown Akron is now, where you could fire a cannon down Cascade Plaza at 10 AM and not hit anyone. I've heard from many that they look at Public Square right now and are disgusted by "those people" who are there now. I look at Public Square and see a busy city center of many different people which is truly representative of Cleveland. But this is the way America is headed -- marginalize those without a voice and sweep them to the side. Public Square must be maintained as the central focal point of the RTA system otherwise the system is wrecked in the name of homogeneity and ethnic purity. The PD is in bed with the city leaders on this. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 15, 201410 yr Author http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/10172014/index.php City Planning Commission Agenda for October 17, 2014 4. DF2014- 071 - Public Square Transformation - Final Approval Project Location: Ontario Street and Superior Avenue Project Representative: Nora Romanoff, LAND Studio "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 15, 201410 yr The other issue is Public Square and what our vacuous city planners are attempting to do that will ruin public transit in Cleveland as we have known it for about 120 years. <snip> Christ, what a mess. I'm grateful there is somebody with connections that can get a whiff of these rumors before the rest of us.
October 15, 201410 yr KJP, I have some follow up questions, but I'll ask them in the Cleveland transit ideas for the future thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.875.html
October 15, 201410 yr The other issue is Public Square and what our vacuous city planners are attempting to do that will ruin public transit in Cleveland as we have known it for about 120 years. The Group Plan Commission is envious of Campus Martius in Detroit and other similar central downtown program spaces around the country. They couldn’t care less about the buses and if the people who use the buses were to go somewhere else, so much the better. Basically, the rail hub at Tower City is the only thing that has kept the buses in downtown. However, if another station could be developed somewhere out of the way, and there was sufficient land to allow all of the buses to serve it near downtown, that would be perfect for the lobbyists working on behalf of Forest City and Dan Gilbert. Such a site is the former Norfolk Southern intermodal yards south of the Inner Belt at East 14th Street and Broadway. The thinking is going something like this: The Red Line would still go to Tower City. Basically, all the West Side buses would come down the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge, except the ones that come into downtown from north of Lorain. Those would come across the Detroit-Superior Bridge and then down Huron to Ontario. East Side buses would turn south on East 9th Street to the transit center. Buses from the southeast would go directly up Broadway to the transit center. So those who need to go to the east of downtown could hop a bus going north on East 9th Street. Anyone else would just stay on the train and go to Tower City. I suppose there could be a trolley that would run north-south and connect to the transit center, if they could find a sponsor for it. This is outrageous, but it isn’t much worse than what Akron METRO ha where all the buses run through some sections of Downtown and end up in a wasteland area south of Downtown. The area between West and East 9th Streets would be ethnically cleansed of bus passengers. It would be like downtown Akron is now, where you could fire a cannon down Cascade Plaza at 10 AM and not hit anyone. I've heard from many that they look at Public Square right now and are disgusted by "those people" who are there now. I look at Public Square and see a busy city center of many different people which is truly representative of Cleveland. But this is the way America is headed -- marginalize those without a voice and sweep them to the side. Public Square must be maintained as the central focal point of the RTA system otherwise the system is wrecked in the name of homogeneity and ethnic purity. The PD is in bed with the city leaders on this. Those plans are a terrible idea. So is making outrageous and unhelpful comparisons to mass murder. Hyperbolic, ahistorical misuse of terms like ethnic cleansing is insulting to the actual victims of ethnic cleansing and, incidentally, a really good way to turn off those who might be persuaded to your position. What happened to Bosnian Muslims in the 1990s or Iraqi Yazidis and Christians today is ethnic cleansing. The potential relocation of a public transportation hub? Not so much, no matter what a bad idea it is and no matter how many of its proponents may have discriminatory motivations.
October 15, 201410 yr The other issue is Public Square and what our vacuous city planners are attempting to do that will ruin public transit in Cleveland as we have known it for about 120 years. The Group Plan Commission is envious of Campus Martius in Detroit and other similar central downtown program spaces around the country. They couldn’t care less about the buses and if the people who use the buses were to go somewhere else, so much the better. Basically, the rail hub at Tower City is the only thing that has kept the buses in downtown. However, if another station could be developed somewhere out of the way, and there was sufficient land to allow all of the buses to serve it near downtown, that would be perfect for the lobbyists working on behalf of Forest City and Dan Gilbert. Such a site is the former Norfolk Southern intermodal yards south of the Inner Belt at East 14th Street and Broadway. The thinking is going something like this: The Red Line would still go to Tower City. Basically, all the West Side buses would come down the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge, except the ones that come into downtown from north of Lorain. Those would come across the Detroit-Superior Bridge and then down Huron to Ontario. East Side buses would turn south on East 9th Street to the transit center. Buses from the southeast would go directly up Broadway to the transit center. So those who need to go to the east of downtown could hop a bus going north on East 9th Street. Anyone else would just stay on the train and go to Tower City. I suppose there could be a trolley that would run north-south and connect to the transit center, if they could find a sponsor for it. This is outrageous, but it isn’t much worse than what Akron METRO ha where all the buses run through some sections of Downtown and end up in a wasteland area south of Downtown. The area between West and East 9th Streets would be ethnically cleansed of bus passengers. It would be like downtown Akron is now, where you could fire a cannon down Cascade Plaza at 10 AM and not hit anyone. I've heard from many that they look at Public Square right now and are disgusted by "those people" who are there now. I look at Public Square and see a busy city center of many different people which is truly representative of Cleveland. But this is the way America is headed -- marginalize those without a voice and sweep them to the side. Public Square must be maintained as the central focal point of the RTA system otherwise the system is wrecked in the name of homogeneity and ethnic purity. The PD is in bed with the city leaders on this. Those plans are a terrible idea. So is making outrageous and unhelpful comparisons to mass murder. Hyperbolic, ahistorical misuse of terms like ethnic cleansing is insulting to the actual victims of ethnic cleansing and, incidentally, a really good way to turn off those who might be persuaded to your position. What happened to Bosnian Muslims in the 1990s or Iraqi Yazidis and Christians today is ethnic cleansing. The potential relocation of a public transportation hub? Not so much, no matter what a bad idea it is and no matter how many of its proponents may have discriminatory motivations. Freiburg[/member] Exactly.
October 15, 201410 yr Of course they have a seat at the table, if they didn't it would raise major flags!
October 15, 201410 yr There must be a better way than what is there today, the huge open air bus stop.
October 15, 201410 yr Author All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio now5 seconds ago @GCRTA Many rumors out there. We responded to 1 because of source & info. Looking forward to traffic data & more open process. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 15, 201410 yr Is the final traffic analysis not completed? Seems weird to be going for design review "final approval" when some of the supposedly key data are still to come.
October 16, 201410 yr Author Public Square renovation wins a big thumbs-up from Cleveland Design Review Committee By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer on October 16, 2014 at 3:20 PM, updated October 16, 2014 at 3:54 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio – Cleveland's Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee on Thursday enthusiastically approved the nearly finished plans for a sweeping, $32 million plan to renovate Public Square in the heart of downtown. The committee's vote added momentum to the effort by the city's Group Plan Commission to win 100 percent design approval from several city review bodies over the next week, and to break ground soon in order to finish the project in time for the Republican National Convention in 2016. Devised by the leading American landscape architect James Corner, the plan calls for closing Ontario Street in the square, expanding plazas and green space north and south of Superior Avenue, and relocating bus stops without reducing transit capacity inside the 10-acre space. READ MORE AND SEE GRAPHICS AT: http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/10/public_square_renovation_wins.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 17, 201410 yr What's it going to take to get the Soldiers and Sailors Monument People on board for this public square redo? I find it so baffling that they aren't embracing this redo. Are they trying to make some sort of statement?
October 17, 201410 yr ^ Seriously! What is their basis for the opposition? * I just read the article in full. Even the most "intrusive" iteration doesn't do anything but complement the memorial. Having the promenade right up to the monument is, IMO, the best use of space as it encourages the monument's use. The expanded planters, which the monument group prefers, substantially cut down the functional space and make the monument less integrated with the rest of the square. Those people are out of their minds. Is this obstructionism for obstructionism's sake?
October 17, 201410 yr I'm befuddled by S&SM's beef... or what it even is, really. I'm generally OK with the redesign, although the biggest issue seems how to handle the RTA problem, and from the sounds of the Group Commission's ill-thought proposal, this will not be a quick fix.
October 18, 201410 yr Its a power play for a powerplay's sake. That's not even unusual, when different levels of government and quasi-government are involved. One solution would be to run buses down into the lower levels of TC where the trains are, but I doubt that's practical.
October 22, 201410 yr Some new pics/graphics. http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2014/10232014/index.php
October 22, 201410 yr I like the project more as the details emerge and like the symmetry of the cafe with the monument and how the monument is opened up in the southeast corner. I've never been a fan of the fake urban knoll, but I can overlook that, given the scope of the project.
October 22, 201410 yr They've made some pretty good progress on this. I only see one slide showing the proposed relocated transit stops though. Is this the final proposal or is this something that is still being etched out?
October 23, 201410 yr Author Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] 8m8 minutes ago #CLE Landmarks Commission gives thumbs-up to Public Square overhaul, after truce re: Soldiers & Sailors Monument. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/10/public_square_overhaul_gets_ok.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 24, 201410 yr I'm relieved. 'Particularly that additional green has been added around the S&SM. The planned reduction in the size of the current planting beds was significant, and I felt that there was far too much hardscaping on the Southern half of PS. The posturing (or whatever you want to call it) by the S&SM Board helped planners achieve a better end product. I'm glad now that this can move forward, and IMHO even that small amount of extra green in the planters around the S&S Monument will help the square feel more dignified, timeless, stately and park-like. - Call me very pleased!
October 24, 201410 yr I'm curious what the winter landscaping plans are. I suggest this Christmas Winter Tree.
October 24, 201410 yr Author ^So, now what's up with the whole RTA/bus piece? No issue. GCRTA will remain on the square. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 24, 201410 yr ^So, now what's up with the whole RTA/bus piece? No issue. GCRTA will remain on the square. Good.
October 24, 201410 yr I'm curious what the winter landscaping plans are. I suggest this Christmas Winter Tree. Awww lol.
October 24, 201410 yr ^So, now what's up with the whole RTA/bus piece? No issue. GCRTA will remain on the square. But what's going to happen to the buses, passengers who use routes currently traveling N-S through the Square along Ontario, such as the 14, 15, and 19?
October 27, 201410 yr Took this on Saturday night ... I'm always sort of amused by how imperfect the crosswalks look (they don't look square with each other) from far above.
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