Not a wide freeway, sure, but more of a parking lot (in its later years).

 

And before it was a park at all it was a military parade ground for like 50 years. The point being, it's actually pretty easy to imagine historic spaces being changed in big ways, because it's happened to most of them at one point or another. The best reason to honor the historic integrity of a design is because it's actually a good design, not the history itself. 

As I've said up-thread, I like everything I'm seeing about the redesigned PS, esp the new pavilion retail area and the idea of more park-like, programmatic activities planned for the Square, like more outdoor concerts, festivals, food-oriented events and the like.  My only misgiving is the RTA bus and "special vehicle" traffic that will be allowed to continue along Superior.  I'm hoping that, at some point, hopefully in the near future, that this too may be amended and Superior, like Ontario, is closed off completely.

exactly, you can do anything with these squares. the changes to public square are purely cosmetic. if any mayorship or whoever ever wanted to put it back as it was it could be done just as this modernization attempt was done. the bigger point is something needed to be done and it was done by the best in the business. so it should be fine. as for the crowds outside of homeless and bus riders it looks like everything that can be done is being done to bring in more of a mix. the only issue left hanging there is to bring in more residents, which of course is happening at its own pace. is it perfect? no. they should have used the opportunity to put in a bus tunnel. but i do love the new design renders and concept and how its looking so far. i especially like the permanent skating rink. that in particular was long overdue imo.

Good or bad, what's done is done. Sorry if this was mentioned upthread but who will take care of the new PS after all the construction is complete?

^ The Group Plan Commission is fundraising for the maintenance part of it as well. I believe the upkeep will be carried out between the city and DCA?

What was historic about the previous design of Public Square? Looks to me like nearly all of it dated to the 60's or 70's.

^ The Group Plan Commission is fundraising for the maintenance part of it as well. I believe the upkeep will be carried out between the city and DCA?

 

If it is the city, can they actually handle this? Or will all the programming be run-down and out of service in a decade or so. Looking at the very positive changes at Edgewater, it almost feels like Metroparks should take over the new PS as well.

^^It was from around 1980. Don Hisaka and Sasaki, I believe.  The NE corner may be been more or less a continuation of earlier designs, but the SW and NW weren't at all historic. Especially the SW. And the SE isn't really changing, obviously.  The only thing long standing being lost is the street pattern, and transforming car space to pedestrian space without harming transit service is pretty much ideal, or maybe didn't even go far enough.

^ The Group Plan Commission is fundraising for the maintenance part of it as well. I believe the upkeep will be carried out between the city and DCA?

 

If it is the city, can they actually handle this? Or will all the programming be run-down and out of service in a decade or so. Looking at the very positive changes at Edgewater, it almost feels like Metroparks should take over the new PS as well.

 

The Group Plan Commission hired an executive from the Metroparks to be in charge of programming for the square and DCA is hiring (or maybe has hired) at least three staff members will report to that person and whose jobs will be focused on Public Square

^ The Group Plan Commission is fundraising for the maintenance part of it as well. I believe the upkeep will be carried out between the city and DCA?

 

If it is the city, can they actually handle this? Or will all the programming be run-down and out of service in a decade or so. Looking at the very positive changes at Edgewater, it almost feels like Metroparks should take over the new PS as well.

 

The Group Plan Commission hired an executive from the Metroparks to be in charge of programming for the square and DCA is hiring (or maybe has hired) at least three staff members will report to that person and whose jobs will be focused on Public Square

 

Hopefully the City of Cleveland will stay out of running anything but the water in Public Square.

The best reason to honor the historic integrity of a design is because it's actually a good design, not the history itself. 

 

Of all the great things that have been said on these boards, this has just become my all-time favorite.

Last few days.

The pics of PS look great!  I'm with those that don't think that the historic value of Public Square meant it couldn't have a new design for a new time and generation.. I agree with the idea that it is but one "piece of the puzzle" in helping the city move forward.  I'd wager that not that many people went to the previous version of public square for enjoyment or aesthetic value.  Now, it has a chance to become that kind of a place.  Will it happen overnight?  -probably not, but it should immediately become a more dynamic place in the center of the city with a much more inviting, modern feel - and as more people live downtown in existing and planned residences near by, it should be a great space in which to take a walk, or have a lunch, etc - (we'll see how it fares as a possible concert venue) - but the point is that Public Square is about to become more of a people-friendly, interactive environment and I think the city made a good investment in its future. 

I wish the cafe's hvac system was hidden.  The roof could have been greened similar to how The Hilton's podium roof has been done

 

For the first time I've noticed how the angle of the walkway (heading NE) suggests a continuation toward the Malls. I wonder if that was intentional? Have seen a few presentations where linking PS and Malls was a short-term goal.

 

Seems like a well-marked, angled crosswalk could likely further the connection.

I wish the cafe's hvac system was hidden.  The roof could have been greened similar to how The Hilton's podium roof has been done

 

It is hidden from street level - it's recessed into the roof. But there is little anyone can do from hiding a necessary component from those in Terminal Tower.

For the first time I've noticed how the angle of the walkway (heading NE) suggests a continuation toward the Malls. I wonder if that was intentional? Have seen a few presentations where linking PS and Malls was a short-term goal.

 

Seems like a well-marked, angled crosswalk could likely further the connection.

 

If the Mall and PS are both programmed in a complimentary fashion, and connected physically, visually and through unifying signage, together they can really be an example of a great urban space.  (and urban planning, when you consider the convention center below).  Hopefully with both public spaces getting enhancements/support from the group plan commission and the DCA this will happen over time.  I'm optimistic that it will.   

Have we heard anything about events yet?  Really hoping they can have something (major) lined up for Labor Day at the latest.  Ideally, we need a music festival and we need it 10 years ago.

I wish the cafe's hvac system was hidden.  The roof could have been greened similar to how The Hilton's podium roof has been done

 

 

Well, gee. It's kind of hard to hide something when you are looking at it from the 30th floor of another building. Pretty sure no one can see it from the street level which is all that really matters.

Any news on when the square will be open to the public? Original target completion date was June 1, but will the powers that be keep it closed to the public until the RNC so that the square is as fresh and clean as possible for our visitors and Republican overlords?

^Surprised we haven't seen anything announcing an event to observe its reopening, but I've read nothing that suggests it won't open in early June, well before the convention. 

Surprised we haven't seen anything announcing an event to observe its reopening, but I've read nothing that suggests it won't open in early June, well before the convention.

I sure hope so. I'm visiting Cleveland the first week of June for the first time in 2 years so...I'm counting on it!

I wish the cafe's hvac system was hidden.  The roof could have been greened similar to how The Hilton's podium roof has been done

 

Agree 100%.  All of the HVAC should have and could been hidden and the roof should be a 100% green roof. Simply put, this is a HUGE error and demonstrates a major budget cut and design flaw.  It is very easy to hide 100% of the HVAC equipment.  You simply have internal steel girders creating an additional low height floor above the highest ceiling height and place all of the HVAC equipment on this internal highest floor and  vent the units out the side of the building with a louvered grill in the facade.  This has minimal street level aestheticimpact.  The birds eye view of PS will always be the most photographed and published viewpoint and this exposed HVAC equipment ruins the landscape.  All of the aerial shots for conventions, tourism promotions and sporting events will show this flaw and all office tenants, residential unit owners and hotel guests will see this major unintelligent design flaw. 

OMG I'll never go to Public Square now! Will you be out there scrubbing the oil stains from the streets? Will you be out there picking up trash that blows in the wind? There are other things to nit pick over than something as inconsequential as this.

 

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed. A green roof is all about show for a building of this size - and does nothing to solve the larger issue of storm water run-off. It also does nothing to reduce the heat island effect, considering the amount of hardscape that exists in the city alone. You are also adding an additional 12' of overhead space that will be utilized for maintenance access only - to serve a HVAC system that is no more than 3' high sans the air conditioning/heating unit - which isn't visible from the street. To support the extra floor and extra steel that is required, you have to engineer a second floor for the HVAC system and then another roof to support the dead weight of a green roof - and then add another 12' of steel "grill" cladding to hide the extra floor. Do you think the HVAC system access is only 3' tall or something?

A louvered supra-roof covering would do the job perfectly well. Well, maybe not to certain particularists tastes, but an improvement.

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

 

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.

Sure. If Cincinnati and 3CDC took HVAC piping and essential equipment as seriously as the one poster on here, Fountain Square would have never happened. I'm not sure if you've been to Carew Tower, but you can see the HVAC on the roof of the Via Vite restaurant - and countless of other structures.

 

I mean, people were complaining about the "cheap" metal chairs and tables. And the big-screen television. And the trees. But you know something? It's popular. It revived a forgotten area of downtown and jumpstarted redevelopment efforts around it. Not one complaint about the HVAC system. And no complaints about the chairs, tables, televisions and trees (unless you follow one of those Old Photos/Memories of Cincinnati Facebook groups where the older folks constantly drag the city down).

 

Some people can't see the forest for all of the trees.

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

 

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.

 

Only one of those things costs the city and taxpayers any money.

 

*Hint* It's not the snails *hint*

 

Hiding HVAC equipment on such a small building from surrounding buildings is a non-issue. It just isn't common or realistic. The idea that some aerial shots will be "ruined" is questionable. Watch some aerial view of any city and look around. HVAC equipment is all over the place. Basically every building has a jumble of HVAC units, piping, water towers, etc. on their roofs and it isn't at all an issue because that's not the view people generally experience the city from. When on ground level you can't see it and that's really all that matters.

 

3CDC put green roofs on the small concessions and restroom buildings when they redid Washington Park in Cincinnati. I honestly didn't even realize for about a year and a half since they're so small and you don't see the roof whatsoever from the ground. This will be that same way. It's not even remotely an issue.

I agree with the sentiment a green roof would make the Square more photogenic for the inevitable aerial and rooftop pictures being taken. But it's also a high cost item that provides no benefit for the people actually using the Square. That puts it first on the chopping block when it's time to cut costs.

With one quick look, you can tell the difference between quality design and "just OK" design.

 

What we see here is called satisficing, (a combination of to satisfy & to suffice.),

sat·is·fice: to accept an available option as satisfactory.

 

 

      A butterfly wing with the beginning stages of consumption?

Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign

« Reply #2273 on: Yesterday at 11:32:00 PM »

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OMG I'll never go to Public Square now! Will you be out there scrubbing the oil stains from the streets? Will you be out there picking up trash that blows in the wind? There are other things to nit pick over than something as inconsequential as this.

 

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed. A green roof is all about show for a building of this size -

 

 

With all due respect, a green roof is certainly about aesthetics and thus why not strive for superior aesthetics?  Why settle for mediocrity?  Adding green pace to downtown is a great idea as would be adding more green space to neighboring perimeter PS building's roofs..  The extra cost is not that excessive for a project this size nor a project of this importance nor a project in this central location nor a project which will be one of the most photographed iconic images of the new Cleveland.  Why skimp?  In Chicago and other major cities, several small buildings have 100% green roofs.  I have seen numerous bank branches in Chicago much smaller than the building in PS that have a 100% green roof.  If a small bank branch can do it why can't Cleveland?  The Apple stores all have Green Roofs, and so many larger buildings in Chicago green a portion of their roofs.  It would be great to see the Casino's roof with trays of succulents.

 

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

 

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.

Only one of those things costs the city and taxpayers any money.

 

*Hint* It's not the snails *hint*

 

It isn't about who's funding it, it's about who's making the calls.  Maybe the foundation made its donation contingent on snails.  Or maybe they just told the people with design authority to "do something nice" with the money. 

 

This project is already way over budget, to the point that the state had to get involved, so it's a little odd to leave any aspect looking unfinished.  If the plan is to spare no expense for aesthetics, which it fundamentally is, then at least follow through with that concept.  This roof will be prominent in a lot more publicity photos than any other roof downtown.  Some buildings do have exposed workings up top, but others don't.  This should be one that doesn't.

 

I don't think it's that big of a deal, just a less-than-ideal oddity.

 

I agree with the sentiment a green roof would make the Square more photogenic for the inevitable aerial and rooftop pictures being taken. But it's also a high cost item that provides no benefit for the people actually using the Square. That puts it first on the chopping block when it's time to cut costs.

 

Using the square includes promoting the city with photos of it.  That may actually be the use that benefits the most people.

The idea that some rooftop equipment will be the front and center thing people look at when seeing aerial photos is silly. Like mentioned upthread, that is far from the truth for Fountain Square in Cincy with Via Vite in addition to all the stuff on top of the 5/3 garage and on top of Macy's in every picture. We've gotten by with all that HVAC equipment up there in all those aerial views of the square. It's a complete non-issue.

I wish I had picture posting skills... because I'm looking at both roofs right now and it's not even a close comparison.  Via Vite's equipment is barely visible, to the extent that any of it is even exposed.  It looks great.  That's quality design work. 

 

The Public Square cafe's roof is about 50% pipes & stuff.  It looks like the actual roof was torn off in a storm.  That does not meet the benchmark set by Cincinnati.

Looking at the view of PS from the Tower City Web Cam, it is clear that the roof of the cafe is poorly thought and poorly designed.  It is simply ridiculous to not design a green roof in a new park where clearly a major objective is to add green space and an aesthetic improvement to the center of the city.  No one could argue that looking at HVAC equipment that is bound to rust and loads of pipes is beautiful, state of the art, intelligent, environmentally friendly, thoughtful design.  It shows a complete lapse in judgement.  The square footage of that roof is about the same size as the water feature!  So why would you not make it a green roof!

 

The photo below is of one of many bank branches throughout Chicago that have full green roofs.  That's how good, thoughtful urban design is done!  I find it too "typical" of the Cleveland attitude to acquiesce to mediocrity instead of striving for greatness.

^did you lose the design contract for the cafe building?

Ha!  Nope.  Yep you are correct.  A disorganized mess of pipes, and heating, air-conditioning and ventilation equipment does look so much better than green vibrant plants.  I can't  believe they even bothered to plant trees and grass in Public Square.  There should be more pipes, mechanical equipment, exhaust fans (that hopefully will rust) instead of lush greenery.  I just wish the cafe was so much bigger so that we can have double the amount of Roof Top Units.  RTUs are so much more interesting and aesthetically pleasing than gardens of plants and vegetation. But only in Cleveland do we plant Plastic Plants in large planters in front of our number one tourist attraction: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  Who needs real plants when you can have plastic plants!  Who needs green roofs when you can have antiquated building design rife with HVAC RTUs and exhaust pipes!!

Are we even 100% sure that the roof is in its final state at this point?

According to Land Studio that is the finished design for the cafe.  I was told the design was considered to recess the HVAC for minimal view from the ground.  I did mention to them that much of the views of Public Square are from office windows and voiced my concerns with the placement. No response was made after that. Interesting that all articles regarding the cafe as having ton back side and yet clearly the roof was overlooked as being a dominant feature

Sadly yes...What you see is what you will get.  Of course, all early renderings of Public Square where the cafe was originally designed as a more pleasing ellipitcal footprint did not include the Roof Top Units and disorganized pipes. The cafe was redesigned too quickly and the bird's eye view was ignored.  The North, South, East and West elevations show the disorganized RTUs!  It's amazing this passed review!

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/06/first_look_new_designs_for_pub.html

Two centuries of reimagining Public Square

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,766.msg801563.html#msg801563

^Great set of photos.

Also PS will be closed off this wkd for what must be restriping? resurfacing? of the perimeter streets. Idk. Gonna be must see TV!

 

DowntownCLE ‏@DowntownCLE

Public Square is almost done, but there is a little more work to do! Streets around the Square will close late 5/6-8

Ignorant question: is it possible to paint HVAC equipment? Can it be painted green or with a mural of some type--so that it looks less conspicuous or possibly even its own attraction from above? I hear there's a paint company nearby  :-P

 

I've been trying to get a picture from my office to post--but the cafe is too close to Terminal Tower so the 32nd floor blocks my view  :|

 

Does anyone else have a view of it from above?

The perimeter has had all existing striping removed on May 4th. This was visible from the the webcam

^Yeah, I noticed that too- looks so weird without lane markings!  I think they've also been installing new traffic signals, maybe? I saw a cherry picker out there at one point and started noticing signal arms that might be new. Will be interesting to see how the perimeter road gets re-striped and signaled.

 

Also, looks like they've been installing the wooden seat tops on some of the concrete bench walls. That's a really nice detail. Much less cold to sit on in the chillier months and (I hope) easily replace-able as they get damaged and stained over the years.

 

Looks like there's very little serious work left to do. They need to pour one more concrete roadway section in the middle, do a little more cobble-laying to complete the middle of the butterfly path thing, probably some more planting in the big beds, and some other small stuff. Also some more cafe interior, no doubt.  But can't imagine this thing isn't finished by the end of the month. Can't wait to check it out.

New traffic signals and mast arm supports are being installed. As for the striping - is the inner lane still reserved for buses? There is a rumble strip that separates the lanes and that can't be removed with a water gun.`

 

^I don't think the BRT lane is going anywhere.

Ignorant question: is it possible to paint HVAC equipment? Can it be painted green or with a mural of some type--so that it looks less conspicuous or possibly even its own attraction from above? I hear there's a paint company nearby  :-P

 

I've been trying to get a picture from my office to post--but the cafe is too close to Terminal Tower so the 32nd floor blocks my view  :|

 

Does anyone else have a view of it from above?

 

I think it is better to keep it as it. Painting it green would really make the entire building stand out within the context of the entire square. The light gray roof and mechanicals blend in fairly well from in the this picture.

 

 

 

Ideally, the roof is completed and is a different color than the surrounding concrete.  Right now the match is uncanny, which helps the HVAC stand out even more.  Via Vite on Fountain Square would be a decent model to emulate.  It's red and most of the equipment is crammed into a back corner. 

 

Doesn't help that so many people will be approaching this cafe from the rear, since that's where our rail and retail hub is.  It's too bad we couldn't keep the original rounder design. This structure has a cheaper look and its design doesn't allow for a good orientation. 

^ I always thought the retail aspect of PS redesign was most important. And that's precisely the area where they had to cut back. I'm not going to let this ruin my day though lol. But yeah, I almost wish they simply delayed construction until they could come up with something better.