yeah after all this work it is weird to leave the mechanicals just bare on the roof like that, but per that pic its not so bad. the rest of the square more than grabs your attention.

^ I always thought the retail aspect of PS redesign was most important. And that's precisely the area where they had to cut back. I'm not going to let this ruin my day though lol. But yeah, I almost wish they simply delayed construction until they could come up with something better.

 

I'm not sure what they cut back because the project's budget grew over the build timeline.  I wish architects would do a better job rendering these aspects that are part of the issues that could have been corrected if the details were shown

As an architect I've always been curious as to why people always assume it's our fault. Many times in big projects the architect's job is finished when drawings are far enough along for a permit to be acquired and they then have zero involvement beyond that. You can design the greatest thing in the world, but if you aren't in charge of construction administration it's incredibly unlikely it'll turn out the way you intended, especially if there was a budget cut along the way after your involvement had ended.

 

Design is an insanely tricky process. And coming from someone that works on multi-million dollar residences everyday and works at a firm that oversees every detail of construction, things turning out the way you intended is costly to a point most people don't even realize. This scale project requires the coordination of dozens of companies just to get to the point of being able to be permitted then dozens more throughout the construction process. It's entirely possible that this rooftop equipment wasn't actually specified until well after design work had been completed and was permitted separately as to not require more time/overlap between architecture and mechanical engineering.

 

And that's not a bad thing. It takes significantly more time and money to make it so everything is perfectly hidden. And that's not necessarily a luxury we have in Cleveland nor do I think it would have made much difference at all if we had thrown enough money at this small building to hide some minor mechanical equipment. The moment everything is done and people are focusing on the actual space nobody will remember this argument beyond those who are inclined to fixate on the one negative aspect of the overall design of the project.

The HVAC elements were in the initial design presentation to the planning commission. They were never predominantly shown only as slight grey outlines hence they probably were never discussed. All renderings hid these elements and one would assume this was by conscious choice. Nobody ,including myself,would want to show this in renderings  Not blaming anyone but for so many views of Public Square always taken from above it would have been nice to have paid more attention to this point of view as a finished surface.  Overall kudos to those involved. I loo forward o seeing how this updated public space works for all

 

"The moment everything is done and people are focusing on the actual space nobody will remember this argument beyond those who are inclined to fixate on the one negative aspect of the overall design of the project."

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6560.2275.html#ixzz47q2qFNk6

 

I fully understand how the architects design gets changed throughout the build process.  Unfortunately in this case, the renderings seem to sneak this design flaw through vague shadow boxes on the drawings.  It is also a lack of foresight, and perhaps intentional neglect, of the review board to completely ignore the ariel view.  And I'd certainly argue that there is not "one negative aspect of the overall design of the project."  There are two.  The lack of a very doable and not cost-prohibitive green roof and the idiocy of bisecting the square.  I frequently have the Tower City PS Construction Cam open on my desktop at all hours, especially at rush hour, and there is no "ring of steel" and no significant traffic jams circling and stalling movement around the square Monday - Friday.  And on the weekends, the traffic is absolutely non-exisitent.  The square should be unified on Sat-Sun to start, and in one year, it should be fully unified.

Overall, I think the project looks good, though the near-finished result looks to have far more paved surface than was depicted in the renderings.  It would have been nice if the south side could have incorporated a little more greenspace.  The renderings also seemed to depict lots of wild grasses and flowers in the areas that are now covered in mulch.  Does anyone know if more plantings are in the offing? 

 

Also, will there be crossing signals at the walkways crossing the bus lanes?  Given how the space is configured it seems conducive to folks just walking out in the middle area, perhaps not realizing that buses travel right through the middle. 

^ There are two pedestrian cross signals in the middle and two at either end.  They are the standard "walk" "don't walk" signals that also contain an activation button.

 

....I don't really like that

Regarding the exposed HVAC unit.

I just can't get worked up about this. Look down from any building downtown or any other city and you will see mechanicals on the roofs of buildings.  It's a non-factor. Calling this bad design or as some genius up thread who pulled the "Only in Cleveland" card is ridiculous. If you actually walk by it instead of staring at it on the webcam  it's not something you even think about.  A better example than the one in Cincinnati is the Dynamite Burgers structure at Star Plaza. Even though it's screened from the sides you can clearly see the HVAC and pipes at the top of the building. And I doubt anyone staring down from the Wyndham Hotel and looking at the exposed pipes and HVAC unit on the top of the building  ever gave it any thought. And I am pretty sure none of you have either.

OMFG can someone please shut this down over the stupid discussion over the roof of this one structure? It's just amazing how Clevelanders can focus on one little thing that will MEAN NOTHING TO ANYONE versus the big picture that this will be a vast improvement of a public area. GOOD LORD!!!!!

OMFG can someone please shut this down over the stupid discussion over the roof of this one structure? It's just amazing how Clevelanders neurotic humans with first world problems can focus on one little thing that will MEAN NOTHING TO ANYONE versus the big picture that this will be a vast improvement of a public area. GOOD LORD!!!!!

 

Agreed... and fixed that for you. ;-)

As an architect I've always been curious as to why people always assume it's our fault. Many times in big projects the architect's job is finished when drawings are far enough along for a permit to be acquired and they then have zero involvement beyond that. You can design the greatest thing in the world, but if you aren't in charge of construction administration it's incredibly unlikely it'll turn out the way you intended, especially if there was a budget cut along the way after your involvement had ended...

 

Probably because, like anything, the general public isn't really clear about how things really work from the inside. Like people think RTA sucks because they don't know how to do anything, and don't understand that there isn't any transit funding in our state. Or people go to a play and trash the actor for doing a terrible job, when they were actually directed to do the role that way and were just doing their job. People outside of any business don't have the understanding of the chain of how things really work. I certainly don't know much about things like architects and the chain of how things get from concept to completion and who all might be involved in calling the shots. But I learn a lot on here every day.

^ I always thought the retail aspect of PS redesign was most important. And that's precisely the area where they had to cut back. I'm not going to let this ruin my day though lol. But yeah, I almost wish they simply delayed construction until they could come up with something better.

 

I'm not sure what they cut back because the project's budget grew over the build timeline.  I wish architects would do a better job rendering these aspects that are part of the issues that could have been corrected if the details were shown

 

Well "cut back" or "skimped" or whatever, the retail design we're getting imho is very underwhelming as compared to the initial concept.

^ 98% sure that is a rendering of Pershing Square in downtown LA. Notice the palm tree? The building in the background with the greenery on the roof is where the restaurant Perch is located.

^ 98% sure that is a rendering of Pershing Square in downtown LA. Notice the palm tree? The building in the background with the greenery on the roof is where the restaurant Perch is located.

 

Well that's because it is!

 

[hurrying to post correct pic lol]

OK how about some actual news. And here is what I found out. Information is scarce on this. I've searched domain registration, public filings, bid contracts...nothing.

 

https://www.instagram.com/rebol_cle/

First I've heard of the brewpub element.  Very cool.  A good tenant trumps a bad roof any day.

All comes down to execution, but this would be a HR of a concept: dawn till dusk format; distinctive; appropriate for visits of various durations.

What's this about dusk?

If Superior were ever to be closed permanently how do you think Field Operations would alter the design?

People here are some rules to remember:

1. Do not call out anyone on here.  If you have a problem with a member, either talk to them directly VIA PRIVATE MESSAGE, or report the post to the moderator.

 

2. Some people are disappointed with the design of the Public Square cafe.  Its a valid point, but I feel we have explored it to death!  Let move on!

 

Some of the dumb posts have been removed

 

Consider this a warning - justice can be swifter or harsher from other Moderators or Admins!

 

Public Square outer ring streets to close through Sunday night

 

By Jane Morice, cleveland.com

on May 06, 2016 at 4:38 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The outer rings streets of Public Square in downtown Cleveland will close this weekend as crews mark roads and place traffic signs.

 

The streets will close at 8 p.m. Friday. The closure will remain in effect until Sunday night, Cleveland police spokeswoman Sgt. Jennifer Ciaccia said.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/traffic/index.ssf/2016/05/public_square_outer_ring_to_cl.html

First I've heard of the brewpub element.  Very cool.  A good tenant trumps a bad roof any day.

 

Yes, what type of place is this ''cafe'' going to be?  A cliché coffee/beverage place with scones or a viable, busy restaurant type of place that will attract evening crowds as well?  Because we do not want an empty PS after working hours.

I say we tear the whole thing up and start over.

I say we tear the whole thing up and start over.

 

This made me really laugh out loud. Thanks!

I've been told the Cafe/Eatery/Brewpup will be operated by the same folks as TownHall.

 

If it's true I have high hopes.

The striping around Public Square looks good. 

 

http://www.towercitycenter.com/info/publicsquare/

The striping around Public Square looks good. 

 

http://www.towercitycenter.com/info/publicsquare/

 

It's nice and clear for drivers but let's hope HealthLine riders will respect the use of the crosswalks and the landscaping beds in Public Square in lieu of trampling and littering that goes on at many stations.  Vigilance will be required to protect this latest version of Public Square.

No bike lanes :(

Are bikers allowed to use the pavers within the square? Maybe it's not an issue (as long as they don't run over anyone :P)

Kind of fascinating watching the traffic navigate the new striping around Public Square. None of it seems that hard to understand or comply with, so it's kind of amazing to see how many cars and buses stop in the middle of sidewalks, well in front of the big white stopping line, and how many cars turn right onto Ontario from the straight only center lane of the SW quadrant. [EDIT: it looks like there may be some trucks partly blocking the right turn lane onto Ontario, which might explain that last part.]

Kind of fascinating watching the traffic navigate the new striping around Public Square. None of it seems that hard to understand or comply with, so it's kind of amazing to see how many cars and buses stop in the middle of sidewalks, well in front of the big white stopping line, and how many cars turn right onto Ontario from the straight only center lane of the SW quadrant. [EDIT: it looks like there may be some trucks partly blocking the right turn lane onto Ontario, which might explain that last part.]

I don't think most people actually look at lines...that or they just don't care. I almost get hit every single day at West Creek Lane and Rockside in Indy bc people don't read signs or follow lines. I need to get back downtown to see the updated striping in person.

PS is looking pretty good!  While many have ignored or have not been too rattled by the lack of creating a green roof,  an equal or larger contingent, as am I, are disappointed for many reasons.  I would like to see this space be the best in all categories including the main objective of adding aesthetic improvement, green space improvement and environmental improvement to the square.  I don't want to settle for mediocrity.  I have seen numerous green roofs daily, as I live in a high-rise.  It is now the norm to green all new low-rise roofs in an urban downtown area.  To not green the roof is antiquated, luddite, thoughtless design.  Many have argued about the cost that greening the roof would have incurred.  I'd counter that throughout the country this is not an issue, as numerous smaller buildings do green their roof and especially do so when the bird's eye/ aerial view is important not just to photographers but to surrounding tenants above.  The photo of a Chase bank in Chicago can be viewed upthread as an example where the residents in the adjacent tower and the Alderman demanded that the roof be greened.  The cost was and is also not an issue for PS to green the roof because the project received money for this very purpose but completely ignored the large square footage of the cafe.  The renovation received $3,000,000.00 from the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District for this very purpose!!!  The money was to be used to decrease the water runoff and rain water from entering the sewer system.  It is simply ridiculous that this money was not used to green the roof!  The cost could easily have been covered by the $3,000,000.00 from the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District.  Before arguing against greening the large roof (about 20% the size of the lawn), please read the article from Steven Litt.  I am not sure who they are fooling when the LAND Studio,Group Plan Commission as well as the NE Ohio Sewer District, and Steven Litt all ignore the greening of the roof, which would increase the greenspace, decrease the hardscape and increase the stormwater permeability:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/10/public_square_renovation_recei.html

 

While PS is looking solid, it could have looked a lot greener and been more environmentally friendly with the cost covered by the NE Ohio Sewer District.  Perhaps, in the future this could be accomplished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting article in PD today regarding Public Square redesign.  I hope the region can get behind the concepts in these designs (I like design #3, the wooded, man made hill above the mega Superior-Ontario Intersection).  Which design does the UO faithful like, and can we get behind something and make Public Square what it should be...a premier public space for all to enjoy.

 

Re-imagining Cleveland's Public Square

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

December 20, 2009, 12:30AM

 

"But James Corner, one of the nation's leading landscape architects, sees a huge potential to turn the 10-acre space at the heart of downtown into an iconic destination on par with Chicago's Millennium Park. He wants to see the square filled with people strolling, sunning, picnicking or relishing public art, concerts, gardens or outdoor markets.

 

At the behest of two nonprofit organizations, Parkworks and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance, Corner has come up with three radical and highly inventive plans for the square. "

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/12/reimagining_clevelands_public.html

 

I have to say I have really enjoyed Steve Litt's articles lately...he is on fire from the Med Mart to the Port to the Innerbelt Bridge and more...he is really keeping design issues regarding all of these big projects front and center and in everyone's face.

 

Its not like this project wasn't discussed publicly, and the first article I could find in this tread was from 6.5 years ago.

Its probably best to focus on future opportunities based on what you consider lessons learned from Public Square.

 

The pedestrian bridge is the next big project, maybe see if there are opportunities to volunteer with LAND studio, or the Group Plan commission.

 

But, PLEASE no more talk about roof of the cafe.  That poor horse is dead, lets quit beating it! 

http://fox8.com/2016/05/09/public-square-renovations-nearly-complete/

 

All these views were taken From Tower City's Observation Deck.  This view is what many will see and photograph of Public Square.    Also it appears Cleveland's City Council extended the hours of Public Square and The Malls until midnight  instead of 10 pm.

^ Is the Soldiers and Sailors Monument really the largest Civil War monument in the country?

^ Must be. Fox News doesn't make things up. ?

As an aside, I love how they don't even attempt to match the image on screen with the reporters description as they are showing the square. All the film is there, they're just too lazy to match it.

It's been so long that I can't remember: where were the bus stops moved to when public square was closed?  I suppose they were dispersed around the square, I'm just trying to envision which ones will be removed and relocated back to the center of the square.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ Is the Soldiers and Sailors Monument really the largest Civil War monument in the country?

 

I can't imagine any measurement that would make it larger than the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Indianapolis.

 

 

 

NArchitects Facebook page has photos showing the install of the cafe's metal panels! IMHO the panels aren't as dynamic or reflective as they were initially rendered.  While the idea is interesting I would have preferred the sides to be glass as to minimize the amount of obstructed vistas. The chosen colors of all the materials in the southern half of Public Square all have the same  value making the site extremely monochromatic.  I have seen the pavers when they are wet from given days of rain and I prefer  the darker tone next to the cafe walls.      I look forward to seeing what art is planned for the back side of the cafe since it holds such predominance  to the park's entrance.

 

NArchitects notes regarding the cafe design and layout

"NArchitects . many issues were tested through many schemes, within very tight constraints. The roof was indeed considered; all required mechanical and plumbing elements were consolidated into a recessed court. The budget permitted the team limited flexibility in choosing roofing materials but visibility from above was a factor. The NE facade has about 60 feet of glazing; this was considered the most important vista to the square. The NW, SE, and SW facades are largely opaque since this is where the kitchen/BOH is located. However a large transaction window is provided on the SE, as well as large openings on the SW under the canopies. Once the building is complete we hope you can visit and experience the project.

^ Is the Soldiers and Sailors Monument really the largest Civil War monument in the country?

 

I can't imagine any measurement that would make it larger than the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Indianapolis.

Wikipedia says the Indianapolis monument is 284 feet, while the column of the Cleveland monument is 125 feet. It sits on a base but the base doesn't look taller than the column.  However the Indianapolis monument also commemorates soldiers from other wars so maybe that makes ours the biggest "Civil War exclusive" monument?

 

Edit because no one gives a damn what phone or app I used to post this.

 

I am so surprised there has been no announcement on the operator of the Cafe yet. Other than what I uncovered last week about REBOL_Cle there has been nothing. BTW that Instagram account was taken down the next day and is now inactive. It went from a few followers to about 100 at the end of the night, shows we have a lot of stalkers here. It probably wasn't supposed to get out in that way. I cant see that being open in time for the RNC except maybe in a small limited way. But to get the FOH/BOH, hiring, training done in about two months is probably not going to happen.

My hope is that it's an operator with an restaurant nearby, where prep work and coolers can be leveraged.

 

Maybe like a Jonathan Sawyer

I mentioned this earlier, but I was told it would be operated by the same owners as TownHall.

I'm always hoping for a Barrio taco stand :) They already do their prep/cooking in a centralized facility and are actively expanding.

I mentioned this earlier, but I was told it would be operated by the same owners as TownHall.

 

yes I remember that but why no announcement yet

Some of the landscape lighting on Public Square was turned on last night.

 

 

First look: Nearly finished Public Square renovation looks spectacular (photos)

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/05/first_look_nearly_finished_pub.html#incart_2box

 

"It looks like the square, which is on schedule and on budget for completion in June, in time for the Republican National Convention in July, is going to be knockout beautiful and unlike any other public space in the city."

 

Is it really on budget?  I'm so confused since it was always reported as a $32M project and then there was a request to the state for funding as well.

First look: Nearly finished Public Square renovation looks spectacular (photos)

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/05/first_look_nearly_finished_pub.html#incart_2box

 

"It looks like the square, which is on schedule and on budget for completion in June, in time for the Republican National Convention in July, is going to be knockout beautiful and unlike any other public space in the city."

 

Is it really on budget?  I'm so confused since it was always reported as a $32M project and then there was a request to the state for funding as well.

 

Wow. I've been peaking through the fence for a few days now. I think most people will be really content with this. Especially love how the Victory statue is visible. Very thoughtful and surprising element.

From the article: "If managed well by the city-county Group Plan Commission, and if programmed with events year-round and patrolled to keep it safe, the square has a chance to become a true central park for the city and a key connection between and among the downtown districts around it."

 

This is so key and what I'm most nervous and cautiously optimistic about. Looks like it will be beautiful when it opens. Hope it stays that way (and gets even better as trees mature, that empty lot gets filled in and buildings like Key Tower stop turning its back to it).

Steven Litt's May 13 article and accompanying photos give a real sense of the vistas and aesthetics created by the new Public Square

on street-level.  I'm pleasantly surprised about what I see at this point - and I've always been cautiously optimistic about how it would turn out.

Obviously, the devil is often in the details in design - and I think we're seeing a lot of very cool elements coming together as we hoped - love the elevation of the hills, the large green lawn with terraced levels, the attention to detail in the sidewalks and the new perspectives of the city from the square.  I'm a little concerned about the southern half,  in terms of the lack of color - but hoping that the splash zone will make it really "pop".  Thinking that the water will look fantastic.  My disappointment, as for many,  is that the bus lane remained in the final design - but maybe that can change in the near future.  The design elements that acknowledge the history of the city - and this space - are appreciated - the the change in the dynamic of this space is clear.

As for when PS opens, I certainly hope that it is BEFORE the RNC. Though the big convention was a key catalyst for this project - ultimately, this space belongs to Clevelanders and it would be only fitting if it was open to residents first, officially - before the visitors arrive.