Mayor Jackson defines the safety flaw of Superior Ave  through Public Square because the decorative pavement patterns imply a unified square.  If this was a major safety concern how was the design ever approved by TPTB ,including the FTA? How is this GCRTA's problem to solve since it should be The Group Plan Commission, Land_Studio, and Field Operations for allowing such a safety design flaw.  I don't agree with this assessment and believe the crosswalk demarkations, traffic signals, and curbs provide as much safety risk as any other street.  Mayor Jackson needs to back up his concerns with proven evidence the paving is unacceptable for FTA crosswalk regulations.  His argument of heightened terrorist risks can be easily made to the surrounding streets of Public Square. Does one close all these streets to vehicular traffic and public transit?  In the City's own analysis they state there are other ways vehicles can enter Public Square for terrorist purposes.

 

The Group Plan Commission should also be held responsible for setting the fears of pedestrian confusion to the redesigned square.  The transit zone area should have never been used as programming. Superior Avenue is the traffic zone area designated for bus use only and only closed to special events i.e. Fourth of July .The farmer's market setup and food trucks were to be layed out on either the north or south side of the transit zone. instead they were allowed or took it upon themselves to not follow these guidelines.

 

I think one we can all agree on is as good as Public Square's design has been perceived, it is flawed with an unclear path to what was required and what was waned for Superior Ave. If a united square was the endgame all along construction should have been halted until all players, including the FTA , knew what was planned.  Now we have an invested $50 million Public Square with a question mark on it's design and use.

 

A $12 million hit to GCRTA was and is unfortunate  but necessary.  It will also be interesting to see how much further investment GCRTA will need to spend if the argument remains to keep Superior closed to buses.  Also how much extra money will need to be spent on reworking the  Square of removal of bus shelters/curbs/traffic signals/ and hardscape. No reason to keep a street in the design if never to be used. 

 

Again, All of these issues should have been figured out before the design and construction began.

A bill for $12 million? With a 30-day deadline? To a struggling city that can't possibly draw the funds in that short period? I could see Cleveland coming up with the money next week if the FTA were asking for something as important as a new modernized scoreboard, but not for this.

 

No way in hell the FTA would send crap like that to New York, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc. What a middle finger to the city. I wonder if there are some politics involved or other factors.

Seems like the easy solution is to open Superior. Use the Square as designed. While I appreciate Jackson's concern about terrorism, I just don't consider Cleveland as a likely target. Besides, there are a lot more people at other locations where the damage could be greater.

 

Nor would some "Road Closed" signs do anything to stop a speeding truck from entering a crowd.  That can be accomplished from many points around the square as well.  I've never been very impressed with Frank Jackson as a visionary or a leader, now I'm 100% convinced he's an idiot. 

When you have to resort to people's irrational fears in an attempt to get people to follow you, it means you've exhausted all rational inspirations.

Following FTA's notice of debt, RTA asked the city to reopen Superior on Jan 9 and for the city to pay for any FTA penalties, and the city says they still want to proceed with further study and creation of a mitigation plan.

 

Full document is here, RTA's letter is on p. 25, the city's response begins on p. 27: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3248857-Public-Square-Docs.html#document/p25

 

These are from the document dump at the end of Ginger Christ's Dec 30, 2016 article: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/12/federal_agency_demands_rta_rep.html

 

Edited to attach images.

Glad to see RTA showing some backbone.

Mayor Jackson defines the safety flaw of Superior Ave  through Public Square because the decorative pavement patterns imply a unified square.  If this was a major safety concern how was the design ever approved by TPTB ,including the FTA? How is this GCRTA's problem to solve since it should be The Group Plan Commission, Land_Studio, and Field Operations for allowing such a safety design flaw.  I don't agree with this assessment and believe the crosswalk demarkations, traffic signals, and curbs provide as much safety risk as any other street.  Mayor Jackson needs to back up his concerns with proven evidence the paving is unacceptable for FTA crosswalk regulations.  His argument of heightened terrorist risks can be easily made to the surrounding streets of Public Square. Does one close all these streets to vehicular traffic and public transit?  In the City's own analysis they state there are other ways vehicles can enter Public Square for terrorist purposes.

 

...

 

 

It was the mayor's directive in the first place!!! This is from a June 14, 2012 Plain Dealer article:

 

"Silliman said the mayor is satisfied with the study's results, provided that Superior be redesigned to look like a plaza that blends with the rest of the square's streetscape when it is closed to traffic for special events."

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B16RJdSArUFaeFNDeTQ0dXhjTm8/view?usp=sharing

TPH2[/member] You need to post a picture of the police vans suddenly blocking the transitway through Public Square, as if the mayor realized in the past few days it was vulnerable to terrorist threat (aka needed visual proof to back it up his fear-mongering).

TPH2[/member] You need to post a picture of the police vans suddenly blocking the transitway through Public Square, as if the mayor realized in the past few days it was vulnerable to terrorist threat (aka needed visual proof to back it up his fear-mongering).

 

From this morning:

 

Mayor Jackson defines the safety flaw of Superior Ave  through Public Square because the decorative pavement patterns imply a unified square.  If this was a major safety concern how was the design ever approved by TPTB ,including the FTA? How is this GCRTA's problem to solve since it should be The Group Plan Commission, Land_Studio, and Field Operations for allowing such a safety design flaw.  I don't agree with this assessment and believe the crosswalk demarkations, traffic signals, and curbs provide as much safety risk as any other street.  Mayor Jackson needs to back up his concerns with proven evidence the paving is unacceptable for FTA crosswalk regulations.  His argument of heightened terrorist risks can be easily made to the surrounding streets of Public Square. Does one close all these streets to vehicular traffic and public transit?  In the City's own analysis they state there are other ways vehicles can enter Public Square for terrorist purposes.

 

...

 

 

It was the mayor's directive in the first place!!! This is from a June 14, 2012 Plain Dealer article:

 

"Silliman said the mayor is satisfied with the study's results, provided that Superior be redesigned to look like a plaza that blends with the rest of the square's streetscape when it is closed to traffic for special events."

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B16RJdSArUFaeFNDeTQ0dXhjTm8/view?usp=sharing

 

Thanks for sharing that quote.  Fascinating

Mayor Jackson's December 30 press conference regarding FTA letter.

 

I don't understand what Mayor Jackson is having a hard time understanding about the "breach" of the FTA agreement.    Is he just stalling?  It sounds like a childish argument.

Mayor Jackson's December 30 press conference regarding FTA letter.

 

 

 

Mayor Jackson's tone is very defensive.  His continued assessment of terrorism if Superior was opened frustrates me.  The talk of "crowds" of people and transit safety are unfounded.  Of course any large "crowd" event, such as Winterfest, Superior Ave would be closed.  I have yet to see "crowds" of people hanging out on the Superior Ave transit zone .  Mayor Jackson keeps saying RTA needs to prove their hardships with keeping Superior closed.  All these requests and reworking of routes,priority signals,and movement of bus shelters will be an additional cost to RTA.  Hardship proven along with $12 million FTA fine.    I wish a reporter asked why the Nelson Nygaard study was disregarded and why none of these safety issues were a concern a year ago.

Clearly not all the parties are on the same page either.  Mayor Jackson continues to say that RTA and Calabrese agree with his position.  But as recently as today, RTA is responding to complaints via twitter saying that "we're ready to resume ops thru Public Sq as soon as we are permitted by the city..."

 

Hmmmm.....

 

 

While my preference is to see Public Square closed, the way the city (and Frank Jackson) has handled the situation puts the RTA in jeopardy from receiving future federal funding on new projects. It puts a nasty mark on the city's relation with RTA, and vice-versa. This is not how agencies should cooperate.

I am totally fed up with both the Mayor and J. Calabrese. They knew (or should have known) that closing the square to buses would be a breach of the contract with the federal government.  Why did Joe Calabrese go along with the city on this for awhile and waste money and time on this study/? At first he was adamant about keeping the square open for buses then he reversed his position and said he was working with the city to reroute the buses and keep the square open. His failure to stand up for the riders he serves just added to the confusion.

 

Enough has been said about the ridiculous concerns made by Mayor Jackson about pedestrian safety, terrorism, etc. A pedestrian bridge could be built over Superior Ave. and the splash pool could be moved to Mall A or Mall B. After all, Public Square is not the only green space downtown.  Detroit's Campus Martius park in the downtown does not have a splash pool but is still immensely popular. Cleveland's downtown has surface parking lots that could be converted to green spaces. 

 

Even if the city pays the 12M fine, this does nothing to address the buses being delayed because they have to go around Public Square.  The 22 bus has been off schedule ever since the square was closed to buses. With all the delays, more people will abandon RTA. This will further weaken an already weakened transit system.

 

Has anyone considered moving part of Superior Ave. under the square?  I know it would be costly but I believe they have done something like this in Madrid to provide more pedestrian only public spaces. 

 

Has anyone considered moving part of Superior Ave. under the square?  I know it would be costly but I believe they have done something like this in Madrid to provide more pedestrian only public spaces.

 

There was a proposal very early on that called for building a raised mound over Superior, but that was dismissed as an option pretty quickly because of the much higher cost

I am totally fed up with both the Mayor and J. Calabrese. They knew (or should have known) that closing the square to buses would be a breach of the contract with the federal government.  Why did Joe Calabrese go along with the city on this for awhile and waste money and time on this study/? At first he was adamant about keeping the square open for buses then he reversed his position and said he was working with the city to reroute the buses and keep the square open. His failure to stand up for the riders he serves just added to the confusion.

 

Enough has been said about the ridiculous concerns made by Mayor Jackson about pedestrian safety, terrorism, etc. A pedestrian bridge could be built over Superior Ave. and the splash pool could be moved to Mall A or Mall B. After all, Public Square is not the only green space downtown.  Detroit's Campus Martius park in the downtown does not have a splash pool but is still immensely popular. Cleveland's downtown has surface parking lots that could be converted to green spaces. 

 

Even if the city pays the 12M fine, this does nothing to address the buses being delayed because they have to go around Public Square.  The 22 bus has been off schedule ever since the square was closed to buses. With all the delays, more people will abandon RTA. This will further weaken an already weakened transit system.

 

Has anyone considered moving part of Superior Ave. under the square?  I know it would be costly but I believe they have done something like this in Madrid to provide more pedestrian only public spaces.

 

I used to hound Joe Calabrese. That was a different time. I finally realized, two years ago, that Calabrese doesn't really have all of these fantastical choices that I used to think he had.

 

Or else there would already be streetcar all the way down West 25th to Parma and RTA would be saved by now...

 

I think ultimately, Calabrese's options are a function of this region and our negligible support for transit. But we are thrilled to death with all of the uber-oriented development in all the "good parts" of Cleveland. It's almost urban, even.

New piece from Ginger

RTA puts city on the hook for $12 million federal clawback; Public Square debate moves to the legal realm

 

By Ginger Christ, The Plain Dealer

Email the author | Follow on Twitter

on January 04, 2017 at 5:00 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - The federal government is demanding repayment of $12 million in grant funding given to the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, and RTA claims the city of Cleveland is liable for the money.

 

Cleveland has come under federal scrutiny after closing Superior Avenue through Public Square. In not permitting buses to cross the square, RTA is in "breach" of a funding deal it made years ago for the Healthline that stated that the bus rapid transit line along Euclid Avenue would end in Public Square, the Federal Transit Administration asserts.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/rta_puts_city_on_the_hook_for.html#incart_river_home

Oh just let the f'ing buses through Frank. It will really screw up what is otherwise a lovely connected park, but this battle isn't worth it. Consulting and legal fees and now federal fines mounting to no end - this is a lost cause

Oh just let the f'ing buses through Frank. It will really screw up what is otherwise a lovely connected park, but this battle isn't worth it. Consulting and legal fees and now federal fines mounting to no end - this is a lost cause

 

Or have your corporate cronies ante up the $12 million to keep their Public Square "fresh and clean".  While you're at it, have Forest City and Key reimburse RTA for the additional cost for miles/fuel.

What an awkward position for the PD.  She had to put "breach" in quote marks, as if to question the legitimacy of the feds.

Somebody looked at the numbers upthread. Even at peak hours, it's not that many busses crossing the square. I think the bigger issue for some is not the actual buses themselves but the people riding them.

 

And there were planning meetings both public and private where all these issues should have been addressed. Screaming about terrorism after the Square was finished is just beyond stupid. The mayor, to me, looks like a fool. While other cities are focusing on master plans to transform their urban areas, Cleveland is still stuck in the finger pointing 1970s.

The FTA action is only the start. Other federal agencies such as the Federal Highway Administration are likely to come down on the city, RTA or both.

 

And if the city wants to win federal transportation grants in the near future, such as for the multi-modal transportation center, the East 93rd/105th corridor, and others, then it would be in their best interest to reopen the square or turn those projects over to others such as the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority or NOACA.

 

The federal government is an investor and when you betray their trust, they punish you in just about every way they can.

What an awkward position for the PD.  She had to put "breach" in quote marks, as if to question the legitimacy of the feds.

 

If you watch Mayor Jackson's bumbling press conference on the subject, that was his line of thinking as well.  "Show me the breach!"

 

 

Cleveland has come under federal scrutiny after closing Superior Avenue through Public Square. In not permitting buses to cross the square, RTA is in "breach" of a funding deal it made years ago for the Healthline that stated that the bus rapid transit line along Euclid Avenue would end in Public Square, the Federal Transit Administration asserts.

 

Umm doesn't the Healthline still end at PS? 

The BRT has always gone around the square.  Its route didn't change, a bunch of others did.  So I understand where FTA is coming from generally but not specifically.  I'm guessing the article oversimplified their complaint.

The larger Euclid Corridor project included a "transit zone" component intended to improve bus service beyond the HealthLine. It included the bus-only lanes on St. Clair and Superior downtown and improvements to East 17th and 18th to allow better access to the STJ transit center.

The federal government is an investor and when you betray their trust, they punish you in just about every way they can.

 

Excellent way to put it.  This has gone far enough! Why are we trying to piss these people off? We need them, especially with our current office at the state level. Voice your concerns about safety and plant those Superior subway seeds, but for the love of god open up the square to transit already.

To answer the question as to what the breach is:

 

When the Mayor closes the 600-foot section of Superior to bus traffic it violates the definition of the Transit Zone the city itself agreed to in the full funding agreement it made with the FTA. So that is why they want their money back.

 

The city, along with the RTA, agreed to designate approximately one mile of Superior avenue from W. 3 to E 17 to include 24-hour exclusive bus

 

Closing one-tenth mile of Superior in the middle of that segment, thats the breach.

 

Impeding bus traffic in a time-consuming, roundabout fashion in what the city agreed to designate with the federal government a transit zone the Feds would pay money to construct, that's the breach.

On top of the $12 million the FTA is wanting back I wonder how much more will be spent in either scenario of Superior reopened or permanently closed to transit.  All we know is RTA is spending $60,000 for a new traffic study.  I believe Field Operations has been retained for adjusting the redesign if Superior was removed.  If buses were to use Superior will further safety designs be installed ?  How much to remove all transit elements from Public Square?  Cost figures/timeline to implement bus priority signaling and movement of bus shelters?    All of these costs should have been figured prior to announcements.    LAND Studio and The Group Plan Commission have been silent. I want to here their position on the matter.  Remember this redesign started at 35 million dollars and then reached 50 million.  Now how much more to fix a less than a year old design.

To answer the question as to what the breach is:

 

When the Mayor closes the 600-foot section of Superior to bus traffic it violates the definition of the Transit Zone the city itself agreed to in the full funding agreement it made with the FTA. So that is why they want their money back.

 

The city, along with the RTA, agreed to designate approximately one mile of Superior avenue from W. 3 to E 17 to include 24-hour exclusive bus

 

Closing one-tenth mile of Superior in the middle of that segment, thats the breach.

 

Impeding bus traffic in a time-consuming, roundabout fashion in what the city agreed to designate with the federal government a transit zone the Feds would pay money to construct, that's the breach.

 

Can you drop this in an email to Mayor Jackson?  He apparently doesn't understand this....

On top of the $12 million the FTA is wanting back I wonder how much more will be spent in either scenario of Superior reopened or permanently closed to transit.  All we know is RTA is spending $60,000 for a new traffic study.  I believe Field Operations has been retained for adjusting the redesign if Superior was removed.  If buses were to use Superior will further safety designs be installed ?  How much to remove all transit elements from Public Square?  Cost figures/timeline to implement bus priority signaling and movement of bus shelters?    All of these costs should have been figured prior to announcements.    LAND Studio and The Group Plan Commission have been silent. I want to here their position on the matter.  Remember this redesign started at 35 million dollars and then reached 50 million.  Now how much more to fix a less than a year old design.

 

At some point, we need to confront the Boulevard Vibrant Greenspace Industrial Complex and let them know their reign over this city has ended.  That should have happened last year when Cimperman slinked away in disgrace.  What's happening right now is a perfect storm of unchallenged corruption and breathtaking incompetence.  Our plans can no longer revolve around park after park after park.  Sorry, LAND.  Sell your wares elsewhere.

To answer the question as to what the breach is:

 

When the Mayor closes the 600-foot section of Superior to bus traffic it violates the definition of the Transit Zone the city itself agreed to in the full funding agreement it made with the FTA. So that is why they want their money back.

 

The city, along with the RTA, agreed to designate approximately one mile of Superior avenue from W. 3 to E 17 to include 24-hour exclusive bus

 

Closing one-tenth mile of Superior in the middle of that segment, thats the breach.

 

Impeding bus traffic in a time-consuming, roundabout fashion in what the city agreed to designate with the federal government a transit zone the Feds would pay money to construct, that's the breach.

 

Nicely done.  I wasn't clear on the breach, either.

What an awkward position for the PD.  She had to put "breach" in quote marks, as if to question the legitimacy of the feds.

 

If you watch Mayor Jackson's bumbling press conference on the subject, that was his line of thinking as well.  "Show me the breach!"

 

 

 

Public Square's future depends on cool heads and bus facts, not more fighting

By Mark Naymik, cleveland.com

Email the author | Follow on Twitter

on January 05, 2017 at 4:32 PM, updated January 05, 2017 at 7:29 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - No more quarreling.

 

Cleveland City Hall, the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority and the Federal Transit Administration need to stop exchanging warnings and complaints about whether it is best for taxpayers and the general public to reopen Public Square to bus traffic.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2017/01/public_squares_future_depends.html

The title of this map is "The Breach"

 

 

Interesting Naymik's opinion piece demands facts and is first to report that the FTA would still fine GCRTA after the Mayor opens Superior Avenue like he said the city would five months ago Aug. 1.

 

You're to assume a journalist would call the FTA before reporting that fact -- which makes me wonder what journalist is correct, considering Ginger Christ's story posted an hour before Mr. Naymik's contends that RTA would be relieved of any fines were the Mayor to order the barricades' removal.

 

While I do agree cool heads need to prevail, from a rider's perspective this fine decimates the whole system. It needs to be fought.

 

So if opening the square saves RTA from the fine, then that needs to happen.

 

Honestly, that this is even a fight is flabbergasting.

 

 

Honestly, that this is even a fight is flabbergasting.

 

That the FTA feels that 600 feet of roadway that isn't to their liking = $12MM to an already stretched-thin RTA is more flabbergasting. 

"Public Rectangles" it's not meant to be, but sadly is likely going to be... "Public SQUARE" it should be...

 

There are hundreds or even thousands of miles of RTA bus routes and it is this 600 feet that throws it all off-balance? That's really hard to believe.

The fact that the city has $12M to throw away for this is ridiculous.  Riding RTA around the perimeter has become a serious PITA.  This is typical for Cleveland to design something and then not use it the way it is designed.  I cannot understand why Mayor Frank "least of thee" Jackson is unconcerned with those riding transit.

 

There are hundreds or even thousands of miles of RTA bus routes and it is this 600 feet that throws it all off-balance? That's really hard to believe.

 

If you cared to look, there is a plethora of information on this forum and elsewhere that explains why that's the case.

Allowing buses to navigate through the Square does not take away one single amenity that was designed. Buses actually activate the area as it was designed to be

Allowing buses to navigate through the Square does not take away one single amenity that was designed. Buses actually activate the area as it was designed to be

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

Allowing buses to navigate through the Square does not take away one single amenity that was designed. Buses actually activate the area as it was designed to be

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

 

If this is the case, why was there ever a roadway and bus shelters put in the park?    It's PUBLIC Square, and it's been a transit hub since the dawn of our city.  Key Bank trying to make it into Crocker Park is not what we need.

Allowing buses to navigate through the Square does not take away one single amenity that was designed. Buses actually activate the area as it was designed to be

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

 

If this is the case, why was there ever a roadway and bus shelters put in the park?    It's PUBLIC Square, and it's been a transit hub since the dawn of our city.  Key Bank trying to make it into Crocker Park is not what we need.

 

Poor planning... The goal of the Square redesign was to create a unified public park unbroken by the horrible, ugly and even dangerous crisscross traffic through the middle.  Even the designer who performed so brilliantly said he preferred it that way and that this was his charge even though he was ordered to keep Superior and the bus shelters in should the City decide, foolishly imho, to put buses back through.... The closed park idea has been the goal of the Square redesign for as long as I can remember, so people shouldn't suddenly have amnesia now. 

 

But knowing this, it was foolish for city officials to enter into the Superior bus-lane agreement with FTA; long before scheduling the rebuild, they should have negotiated a amelioration of the agreement.  (or like, maybe developing the Detroit-Superior bridge subway to eliminate a lot of buses into the center of town a-la Boston or engaging in a comprehensive plan to re-route buses around the square, they could have come up with a workable plan that works for all parties concerned).  But no, mass transit is never important enough to think that way in Cleveland -- although, ironically, we have a high-quality transit system that could be tinkered with to achieve these kind of objectives... if officials really ever gave a damn enough to even try... I am not unsympathetic to the needs and costs of transit.  RTA shouldn't just have to shell out millions in extra fuel costs by being blindsided by the City.  Again this should have been worked out long before the PS redesign plan was ever finalized... Just like with the whole North Coast Transportation Center and/or bridge along the  lakefront, the Public Square mess is just another example of how non-existent mass transit issues are to local officials.  Build our projects now and if transit fits in, fine, if not, oh well...

 

The universal adoration of the new people/family friendly Public Square was one of the real city highlights of this past year... It's just sad that, like the death of the old Flats everyone loved so much and other public controversies, Cleveland still seems to have this nagging habit of turning lemonade back into lemons.

Public Square is desolate most of the time. The only pedestrians that are at risk of getting hit by buses will be transit riders.

Allowing buses to navigate through the Square does not take away one single amenity that was designed. Buses actually activate the area as it was designed to be

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

 

If this is the case, why was there ever a roadway and bus shelters put in the park?    It's PUBLIC Square, and it's been a transit hub since the dawn of our city.  Key Bank trying to make it into Crocker Park is not what we need.

 

Poor planning... The goal of the Square redesign was to create a unified public park unbroken by the horrible, ugly and even dangerous crisscross traffic through the middle.  Even the designer who performed so brilliantly said he preferred it that way and that this was his charge even though he was ordered to keep Superior and the bus shelters in should the City decide, foolishly imho, to put buses back through.... The closed park idea has been the goal of the Square redesign for as long as I can remember, so people shouldn't suddenly have amnesia now. 

 

But knowing this, it was foolish for city officials to enter into the Superior bus-lane agreement with FTA; long before scheduling the rebuild, they should have negotiated a amelioration of the agreement.  (or like, maybe developing the Detroit-Superior bridge subway to eliminate a lot of buses into the center of town a-la Boston or engaging in a comprehensive plan to re-route buses around the square, they could have come up with a workable plan that works for all parties concerned).  But no, mass transit is never important enough to think that way in Cleveland -- although, ironically, we have a high-quality transit system that could be tinkered with to achieve these kind of objectives... if officials really ever gave a damn enough to even try... I am not unsympathetic to the needs and costs of transit.  RTA shouldn't just have to shell out millions in extra fuel costs by being blindsided by the City.  Again this should have been worked out long before the PS redesign plan was ever finalized... Just like with the whole North Coast Transportation Center and/or bridge along the  lakefront, the Public Square mess is just another example of how non-existent mass transit issues are to local officials.  Build our projects now and if transit fits in, fine, if not, oh well...

 

The universal adoration of the new people/family friendly Public Square was one of the real city highlights of this past year... It's just sad that, like the death of the old Flats everyone loved so much and other public controversies, Cleveland still seems to have this nagging habit of turning lemonade back into lemons.

 

I have to disagree with your statements. The 3 initial designs Cleveland Downtown Alliance and Parkworks sponsored all had Superior Ave activated as a roadway.  The one design proposed building up over the road for one unified space but that was deemed too expensive.  There has never been any design without Superior Ave remaining.  If that was the intent than why isn't there one design that shows what you state?

 

I have attached these 2009 plans that Field Operations originally envisioned  http://www.cudc.kent.edu/blog/PublicSquare_design-concepts.pdf

The universal adoration of the new people/family friendly Public Square was one of the real city highlights of this past year... It's just sad that, like the death of the old Flats everyone loved so much and other public controversies, Cleveland still seems to have this nagging habit of turning lemonade back into lemons.

 

Everyone agrees it looks nice, but there can't be universal adoration when some are saying it harms them.  And it usually is pretty empty.  That's a change and I prefer the way it was before.  If you want family friendly, public transportation helps thousands of local families every day.

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

 

If they were streetcars, would you be complaining?

I totally disagree. Through buses destroy the goal of a unified public park that was the project's genisis and is why the PS rebuild has been so universally.

 

If they were streetcars, would you be complaining?

 

Yes.

Just use it as designed and see what happens. We have wasted enough time and energy.

 

If they were streetcars, would you be complaining?

 

Yes.

 

Oh that's right, the only transit you think should be going "through" Public Square is a subway.