"Jackson has said RTA has not been acting in good faith about Public Square and, ultimately, has slowed down the process of reopening the square."

 

I understand that being the mayor of a big city actually requires a big ego and stubornness to have some success. But for the love of God, recognize your mistakes and move on to the next challenge.

Who has the authority, RTA Police or Cleveland Police, to reopen the square?

^City owned right of way and land, so have to think it's all the city.

Who has the authority, RTA Police or Cleveland Police, to reopen the square?

 

Ultimately?  Citizens who vote.

^City owned right of way and land, so have to think it's all the city.

 

However GCRTA has joint policing jurisdiction on Public Square as well as all bus-only lanes downtown. I think GCRTA police could remove the barriers and open the the square tomorrow.

 

BTW, I was in a meeting on Friday where it appears is that it is only a matter of time before the city removes the barriers and reopens the square. I would be surprised if it doesn't happen by March, or at least is announced by then.

It will be interesting to see if The FTA says yes to a further extension to either repayment or reopening of Superior Avenue.  In my opinion I would deny RTA's request. The City and RTA have had plenty of time from August 1,2016 to comply with FTA.  RTA's wording ,along with The City, do not guarantee Superior will be reopened. "safety and traffic control physical changes that may need to be made if Public Square is to be opened.  The "if" is not a definitive yes.   

 

Also what is the added cost for all these overlooked safety requirements on the initial design?  Whom will incur these costs?  Aesthetically how does it alter the existing design?  Will removable bollards be added to either end of Superior Ave when special events are being held?  Many questions remain.

 

 

 

The pedestrians and random running young children running into Superior issue can be solved with some tasteful fencing, perhaps removable for special events.  I like the idea of retractable bollards on Superior for special events, but I'd give them one winter before they are broken and the city doesn't have the resources to fix them. 

I was watching Fox 8 and saw buses driving through the square. I believe they said they are going through a trial test.

FTA grants final extension to March 7 to resume bus service on Superior or repay $12M

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/feds_give_rta_two_more_weeks_t_1.html#incart_river_mobile_home

RTA and city staff are out on Public Square this morning, looking to be running through the logistics of opening Superior. There are also two buses parked on the east end.

 

Hopefully, this dark and silly chapter is coming to an end.  And a nice new square with unencumbered bus service is a good place to end it.

Agreed. What a waste of energy and time. I disagree with opening the road, but it wasn't worth this nonsense. Months of controversies for 600 f'ing feet.

All because the Mayor was beholden to his corporate handlers and couldn't say "I was wrong...."

The time to disagree with it was before the city agreed to it.

i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done.  I still hope pop up bollards can be installed at the east and west ends of Superior Ave instead of the orange and white barricades they have now.  Lastly, I hope they can agree Public Square should be closed to transit on the weekends.  I am also interested  to see how they address Food Truck Tuesdays and The Farmer's Market setups.

 

 

I also added a version B which replaces the concept of removable rails to address the safety crosswalks with additional raised planting beds with added concrete detail seating.  I find this a better solution of greening Public Square further and separating the buses from the pedestrians using boy the north and south sections. It addresses the safety and terrorism risks .  The plantings can be low so when a stage is set on Superior Ave for special events the sight lines  remain open.

RTA hopes to reopen Public Square to buses by March 6

 

By Ginger Christ, The Plain Dealer

Email the author | Follow on Twitter

on February 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, updated February 21, 2017 at 9:38 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio - The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority plans to reopen Public Square to buses in less than two weeks, if all goes as planned.

 

During an RTA board meeting today, RTA CEO Joe Calabrese said he hopes to have buses running on Superior through the square by March 6.

 

That is one day before the final deadline given to RTA by the Federal Transit Administration to reopen the square to buses before it will enforce a $12-million fee.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/rta_plans_to_reopen_public_squ.html

i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

 

What about gates which open from an overhead sensor? Or is that even uglier?

i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

 

What about gates which open from an overhead sensor? Or is that even uglier?

 

Ha, or how about a rusted medieval drawbridge. It could be an ODOT/Larping Society joint venture.

^ lol  Plus we got that 12 million we don't have to pay back anymore, which is pretty much found money burning a hole in our pockets now!

^^I think they should look at the Superior block (East 3rd to East Roadway, West 3rd to West Roadway) coming into the Square and make the far right lanes for all non-bus traffic, put an island with bus shelter in the next lane and then the third lane from the curb becomes bus only.  Outbound from the Square shouldn't need to change.  The 55 (Cleveland State Line) has to make the turn westbound on Superior from the second lane from the curb anyway, this would resolve the jockeying for position with the cars that will have to turn right.

How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

 

 

How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

 

So these would be overhead signs, correct? Any normal size vehicle that's behind a bus is potentially going to have a hard time seeing these.

 

Painting the streets as bus only could work, but when there's city traffic you can't generally see what's on the roadway.

Then put bollards in the middle of the street that are just tall enough for a bus to safely clear, but that a car could not clear without causing severe damage to it.

How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

 

So these would be overhead signs, correct? Any normal size vehicle that's behind a bus is potentially going to have a hard time seeing these.

 

Painting the streets as bus only could work, but when there's city traffic you can't generally see what's on the roadway.

 

Lots of cities paint their bus lanes a different color, that way it's noticeable: https://ggwash.org/images/posts/201506-180025.jpg

For the most part, every thing mentioned is already in place. At Public Square there are overhead "Bus Only" signs above the lanes, next to the signal heads. There are also "Bus Only" pavement markings in the two thru lanes and curb lane. They just aren't done particularly well imho. Theres more that could be done to make the signage more conspicuous.

 

The use of red colored pavement would require approval from FHWA, because it's currently deemed experimental.

 

Edit: for clarity

As I see it, opening up Superior to buses is pretty turn key at this time. As mentioned, the pieces are already there. Signage, signals barriers on the edges to prevent people from wondering into the street.  As it was all designed from the beginning. I think we have been smoke and mirrored for so long that it is easy to think otherwise. That said, can there be improvements, absolutely. I really like the idea of the pavement color coding. 

People will drive into the bus only lanes on Public Square -- that's just a fact of life especially when people already drive into subway tunnels in transit-savvy Toronto...

 

This will take some time to clear. Far more than it took the driver to get to this point, unfortunately. They fled, for the record. https://t.co/hln4S4aSHw

Getting ready at 5pm today for the Monday reopening of the Public Square transitway. RTA is paying for the pavement striping and the city is paying for the pedestrian security which temporarily may include jersey barriers (apparently it was the only thing they could quickly install).

I am confused on the pedestrian crosswalk striping down the center of Superior Ave.  Aren't the crosswalk areas the two cobblestone paths with handicap accessible pavement? 

 

I also have to wonder if buses were allowed to use Superior Ave back in August would all of this be necessary. 

I'll bet the city will put its jersey barriers where there is no curbing. An ADA violation?

I'm sure the ghosts of the Soldier and Sailors monument will soon be joined by the thousands of pedestrians and friends of Mayor Jackson killed by RTA buses and terrorist attacks....  :wink: :roll: :wink: :roll:

 

The Haunted Tunnel In Cleveland That’s Not For The Faint Of Heart

 

Cleveland is a city rich with history. It was founded in 1796, and some of its buildings and streets stretch back just as far. But there is more to Cleveland’s history than what you can see on the surface, and to take in the full extent of it, you have to be ready to handle a healthy dose of the paranormal. Beneath the streets of downtown Cleveland, a huge subterranean complex is haunted by a legacy of ghostly history.

 

http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/ohio/cleveland/haunted-tunnel-cleveland/?utm_source=hao&utm_medium=hoapage&utm_campaign=oiys

I'll bet the city will put its jersey barriers where there is no curbing. An ADA violation?

 

That appears to be the case. There are signs posted saying "No pedestrians. Use crosswalk" and it points to the newly painted cross walk in the middle...which as mentioned does not have a ramp. Will they put in some kind of temporary ramp? This is all so stupid. All of these safety modifications to mitigate made up safety concerns that were concocted to cover for the fact that the reason behind the closure is because they didn't want "those people" on the square.

I'll bet the city will put its jersey barriers where there is no curbing. An ADA violation?

 

That appears to be the case. There are signs posted saying "No pedestrians. Use crosswalk" and it points to the newly painted cross walk in the middle...which as mentioned does not have a ramp. Will they put in some kind of temporary ramp? This is all do stupid. All of these safety modifications to mitigate made up safety concerns that were concocted to cover for the fact that the reason behind the closure is because they didn't want "those people" on the square.

 

If the newly painted cross walk is in the middle of Superior Ave where Ontario use to be, then if I remember correctly no curbing is needed as the park level and the street level are equal to one another. There are no curbs at this area of the PS.

^ No, there are most definitely curbs there

Wait a minute

I'll bet the city will put its jersey barriers where there is no curbing. An ADA violation?

 

That appears to be the case. There are signs posted saying "No pedestrians. Use crosswalk" and it points to the newly painted cross walk in the middle...which as mentioned does not have a ramp. Will they put in some kind of temporary ramp? This is all do stupid. All of these safety modifications to mitigate made up safety concerns that were concocted to cover for the fact that the reason behind the closure is because they didn't want "those people" on the square.

 

Wait. So are they saying "No Pedestrians. Use Crosswalk" at the spots specifically designed for pedestrians to cross?  i.e. at the red arrows here?

Clearly no one who knew what they were doing drew this up.

 

Now the pedestrian signals which were specifically placed at the designed crosswalk locations probably won't be visable either.

Wait a minute

I'll bet the city will put its jersey barriers where there is no curbing. An ADA violation?

 

That appears to be the case. There are signs posted saying "No pedestrians. Use crosswalk" and it points to the newly painted cross walk in the middle...which as mentioned does not have a ramp. Will they put in some kind of temporary ramp? This is all do stupid. All of these safety modifications to mitigate made up safety concerns that were concocted to cover for the fact that the reason behind the closure is because they didn't want "those people" on the square.

 

Wait. So are they saying "No Pedestrians. Use Crosswalk" at the spots specifically designed for pedestrians to cross?  i.e. at the red arrows here?

 

That seems to be the implication. We'll see where they put the barriers. I'll try to grab some pics later this afternoon

I have read the K & J safety studies and am perplexed on this centralized crosswalk. There is absolutely no mention of this addition other than stating the 2 cobblestone crosswalks are "unusually long" ! Why kill the obvious crosswalks that make up the KeyBank Promenade's continuous loop?  I have written to The City Traffic Engineers , GCRTA , and The Group Plan Commission.  No response from any of them. 

 

The safety risk increase for current conditions at the large pedestrian crossing at mid-block

along Superior Avenue is based on the following findings:

 The redesign of Public Square did not have a safety assessment

 The pedestrian crossing as designed is approximately 170 ft. long which is unusually long

and triggered by the traffic signal at both ends of Superior Avenue. There is no pedestrian

activated traffic control system even though the pedestrian signage and buttons exist at the

crossing

 The pedestrian crossings do not have adequate signage and traditional pedestrian road

markings

 The pedestrian crossings surface is the same material and color as the Public Square

pathways and common areas which can cause confusion

 The roadway lacks typical road markings through the pedestrian crossing zone

 There is poor ADA tactile edge color contrast

 

I have read the K & J safety studies and am perplexed on this centralized crosswalk. There is absolutely no mention of this addition other than stating the 2 cobblestone crosswalks are "unusually long" ! Why kill the obvious crosswalks that make up the KeyBank Promenade's continuous loop?  I have written to The City Traffic Engineers , GCRTA , and The Group Plan Commission.  No response from any of them. 

 

The safety risk increase for current conditions at the large pedestrian crossing at mid-block

along Superior Avenue is based on the following findings:

 The redesign of Public Square did not have a safety assessment

 The pedestrian crossing as designed is approximately 170 ft. long which is unusually long

and triggered by the traffic signal at both ends of Superior Avenue. There is no pedestrian

activated traffic control system even though the pedestrian signage and buttons exist at the

crossing

 The pedestrian crossings do not have adequate signage and traditional pedestrian road

markings

 The pedestrian crossings surface is the same material and color as the Public Square

pathways and common areas which can cause confusion

 The roadway lacks typical road markings through the pedestrian crossing zone

 There is poor ADA tactile edge color contrast

 

 

It's like they're worried their heads will fall off if they do a single thing right.

It seems like this is being done as badly and ugly as possible as a way for the city to prove a point. It is really disappointing, especially since this seems to work elsewhere.

 

That said, I think the barriers will likely be at the edges of the existing curb ramps. Ramp users will likely still be behind the barriers (I'm guessing they will be placed at the angle of the painted lines) and then proceed to the (new) intersection to cross. Then the opposite maneuver gets repeated on the other end. Not really elegant or ideal, but likely will preserve ADA access.

Add to this the fact that the lawn portion has just been totally trashed by people cutting across it constantly.  When will designers learn that people will always take the shortest route.  The more time passes, the more I'm finding the overall design to be flawed in several significant ways. 

^This project is like the opposite of the typical outcome: the finishes and details are terrific (mostly) but the conceptual design is deeply flawed.

Add to this the fact that the lawn portion has just been totally trashed by people cutting across it constantly.  When will designers learn that people will always take the shortest route.  The more time passes, the more I'm finding the overall design to be flawed in several significant ways. 

 

They didn't just close Ontario, they tried to pretend Ontario never existed and there was never any use for it.  But Ontario is still the road between the train station and two courthouses.  That reality will always take precedence over a lawn in the middle of downtown. 

 

Go ahead, ignore logistics all you want.  Logistics doesn't care.  It's going to win anyway.  You might think you've beaten it, but it will rip the axles off your buses and kill your precious grass.

Add to this the fact that the lawn portion has just been totally trashed by people cutting across it constantly.  When will designers learn that people will always take the shortest route.  The more time passes, the more I'm finding the overall design to be flawed in several significant ways. 

 

They didn't just close Ontario, they tried to pretend Ontario never existed and there was never any use for it.  But Ontario is still the road between the train station and two courthouses.  That reality will always take precedence over a lawn in the middle of downtown. 

 

Go ahead, ignore logistics all you want.  Logistics doesn't care.  It's going to win anyway.  You might think you've beaten it, but it will rip the axles off your buses and kill your precious grass.

 

Very well said. You can call it a "park" and pretend that it will change peoples' behavior but it's still the same old Public Square to some and will continued to be used in that way.

Add to this the fact that the lawn portion has just been totally trashed by people cutting across it constantly.  When will designers learn that people will always take the shortest route.  The more time passes, the more I'm finding the overall design to be flawed in several significant ways. 

 

They didn't just close Ontario, they tried to pretend Ontario never existed and there was never any use for it.  But Ontario is still the road between the train station and two courthouses.  That reality will always take precedence over a lawn in the middle of downtown. 

 

Go ahead, ignore logistics all you want.  Logistics doesn't care.  It's going to win anyway.  You might think you've beaten it, but it will rip the axles off your buses and kill your precious grass.

 

Very well said. You can call it a "park" and pretend that it will change peoples' behavior but it's still the same old Public Square to some and will continued to be used in that way.

 

Very true--and it's always been a center of transportation. 

 

The best plan for the square should have been one that enhanced transport, and was adaptable to events on weekends.  Every day it seems to get further away from both.

^They were so close! All they needed to do was bisect the lawn with an uncurbed hardscape pedestrian route and work with RTA* to design a busway RTA* would actually feel comfortable using.

 

EDIT: *and the city. Not clear it's RTA pushing this insane busway retrofit.

^They were so close! All they needed to do was bisect the lawn with an uncurbed hardscape pedestrian route and work with RTA* to design a busway RTA* would actually feel comfortable using.

 

EDIT: *and the city. Not clear it's RTA pushing this insane busway retrofit.

 

I would have much rather seen something more like a Rittenhouse Square, which serves pedestrians moving through a core of a city, than this nonsensical playground they came up with.

Let's spend $50 million to get the homeless off Public Square!  What do you mean "give it to them?"  That's crazy.

 

They didn't just close Ontario, they tried to pretend Ontario never existed and there was never any use for it.  But Ontario is still the road between the train station and two courthouses.  That reality will always take precedence over a lawn in the middle of downtown. 

 

Go ahead, ignore logistics all you want.  Logistics doesn't care.  It's going to win anyway.  You might think you've beaten it, but it will rip the axles off your buses and kill your precious grass.

 

To walk around the square to Ontario rather than cut through the lawn is ~ 130 feet or ~30 seconds added to a pedestrian's travel time from the door of Terminal Tower.  Now that buses will return to the square the perception of the cut through being faster will diminish, plus with all Those People milling about, maybe more people will go around the perimeter :roll:

 

How bad is the grass, really?  How can the following assertions both be true:

 

(1) They removed transit, therefore the square is empty most of the time.

(2) So many people are going through the square that the grass is being ruined by people cutting across it.

 

I do sort of agree that some hardscape path through the lawn makes sense.  Or maybe we can get Miguel Rosales to design a $2M pedestrian bridge over the lawn.