They didn't just close Ontario, they tried to pretend Ontario never existed and there was never any use for it.  But Ontario is still the road between the train station and two courthouses.  That reality will always take precedence over a lawn in the middle of downtown. 

 

Go ahead, ignore logistics all you want.  Logistics doesn't care.  It's going to win anyway.  You might think you've beaten it, but it will rip the axles off your buses and kill your precious grass.

 

To walk around the square to Ontario rather than cut through the lawn is ~ 130 feet or ~30 seconds added to a pedestrian's travel time from the door of Terminal Tower.  Now that buses will return to the square the perception of the cut through being faster will diminish, plus with all Those People milling about, maybe more people will go around the perimeter :roll:

 

How bad is the grass, really?  How can the following assertions both be true:

 

(1) They removed transit, therefore the square is empty most of the time.

(2) So many people are going through the square that the grass is being ruined by people cutting across it.

 

I do sort of agree that some hardscape path through the lawn makes sense.  Or maybe we can get Miguel Rosales to design a $2M pedestrian bridge over the lawn.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't take that many people walking across the lawn each day for the lawn to be quickly destroyed.  My office overlooks the square.  The lawn is a total wreck; mostly mud where folks have been cutting across.  I agree that a hardscape path is probably ultimately going to be needed.

Or maybe we can get Miguel Rosales to design a $2M pedestrian bridge over the lawn.

 

Ha!

 

So is it safe to assume the city never spent even a second viewing the ostensible busway as an actual busway during the design process? Naively, I sort of assumed RTA and the city were going to dust off some already-worked-out operating plan on March 6. I never imagined that using a 7 month old busway as a busway would require a clumsy retrofit.

How bad is the grass, really?  How can the following assertions both be true:

 

(1) They removed transit, therefore the square is empty most of the time.

(2) So many people are going through the square that the grass is being ruined by people cutting across it.

 

The grass is bad because it doesn't belong there and wasn't a wise investment.  As to the people on the square, they're passing through to actual destinations rather than treating it as a destination itself.  They aren't stopping to vibrate the greenspace.  Aside from people who are in transit to somewhere else, the square is empty most of the time.

 

Love your pedestrian bridge idea, but we gotta think bigger.  Perhaps a cable car or a monorail.

The grass is bad because it doesn't belong there and wasn't a wise investment.  As to the people on the square, they're passing through to actual destinations rather than treating it as a destination itself.  They aren't stopping to vibrate the greenspace.  Aside from people who are in transit to somewhere else, the square is empty most of the time.

 

Love your pedestrian bridge idea, but we gotta think bigger.  Perhaps a cable car or a monorail.

 

Bigger? I'll see your cable car and monorail and raise you: https://hyperloop-one.com/

 

Or maybe just do this:

Count me in on some grass hating.  I said this straight out when they finished the square, that it had too much grass. Grass is so hard to maintain and made to look "nice" consistently. Especially in a heavy use area such as a downtown square. It requires constant upkeep. Probably get some flack on this. But 97% of the time (official number) a grass application is pointless, unless for a soccer pitch.

Hm, another somewhat surprising thing is that RTA is currently planning on having only a handful of bus routes serve the stations in the busway (see below). Per RTA on twitter, other routes will still use the busway to cross through the square, which should improve performance. Not sure if this is to prevent back ups during peak periods, or intended to limit the number of bus passengers who will be waiting on the square at any given time.

 

^How do they plan to get the buses at the stops right outside the square to get from the curb lane through the cross traffic into the busyway? Will there be priority bus signaling?

^I think there are already special signals for the bus lanes on Superior heading into the Square, similar to the HL signals.

Confirmed:

Buses entering the square will have a separate traffic signal, and all other vehicles will be stopped during that time, Freilich said.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/03/heres_how_the_reopening_of_pub.html#incart_river_home

The new crosswalk is not ADA compliant! How did The City Planning Commission and TPTB deem The KeyBank Promenade crosswalks unsafe?  The Healthline crosswalks down Euclid Ave blend just as much with the street as these do.  They could have easily striped the edges of the crosswalks with white paint. Better yet they could have realized all this during the initial design process.  The new traffic striping indicates there was no need for Superior Ave to be as wide as it was designed. They reduce the lanes to one in each direction.  Where did they find those old circular concrete planters ?  I really would love to know whoat GCRTA and The CIty came up with this plan? The Mayor should be embarrassed that all of his safety/terrorist paranoia ruined a perfectly functional design.

 

I have done an overlay showing the new crosswalk and street makings.  How would one correct this plan?

Everything about this such a train wreck. Even putting aside the gruesome aesthetics, I love how bus passengers getting off the somewhat infrequent 81 bus will have two whole shelters to themselves to stop and tie their shoes or whatever before heading to their workplace. Makes no sense.

 

EDIT: And actually, same thing with the bus stops on the northeast segment- no one will be waiting there. I wonder if the plan is to remove the bus shelters on the eastern half of the busway.

Hm, another somewhat surprising thing is that RTA is currently planning on having only a handful of bus routes serve the stations in the busway (see below). Per RTA on twitter, other routes will still use the busway to cross through the square, which should improve performance. Not sure if this is to prevent back ups during peak periods, or intended to limit the number of bus passengers who will be waiting on the square at any given time.

 

 

 

 

I just noticed none of the Healthline buses go through Public Square!  The only stations are the two on the outer ring.  Wasn't the FTA about Superior Avenue being open to the Healthline buses?

Hm, another somewhat surprising thing is that RTA is currently planning on having only a handful of bus routes serve the stations in the busway (see below). Per RTA on twitter, other routes will still use the busway to cross through the square, which should improve performance. Not sure if this is to prevent back ups during peak periods, or intended to limit the number of bus passengers who will be waiting on the square at any given time.

 

 

 

 

I just noticed none of the Healthline buses go through Public Square!  The only stations are the two on the outer ring.  Wasn't the FTA about Superior Avenue being open to the Healthline buses?

 

I'm actually surprised no one has suggested that the buses could go down Superior, but no stops.

 

I just noticed none of the Healthline buses go through Public Square!  The only stations are the two on the outer ring.  Wasn't the FTA about Superior Avenue being open to the Healthline buses?

 

No, the Superior transit-only lanes were funded as part of the HealthLine grant, but would be used by non-HealthLine buses. The HealthLine buses would operate around the perimeter of the square.

^All true, but as an interesting side note, the initial traffic study suggests that during the Public Sq design process, RTA considered shifting the westbound HL into the busway.

Well, folks are already disregarding the concrete bollards they're installing and walking through the landscaping to cross at no designated crosswalk at all.  Good job city with these safety improvements. 

Well, folks are already disregarding the concrete bollards they're installing and walking through the landscaping to cross at no designated crosswalk at all.  Good job city with these safety improvements.  Cold day = take the shortest route.  Good job designers.  Well done.

 

The new crosswalk is not ADA compliant! How did The City Planning Commission and TPTB deem The KeyBank Promenade crosswalks unsafe?  The Healthline crosswalks down Euclid Ave blend just as much with the street as these do.  They could have easily striped the edges of the crosswalks with white paint. Better yet they could have realized all this during the initial design process.  The new traffic striping indicates there was no need for Superior Ave to be as wide as it was designed. They reduce the lanes to one in each direction.  Where did they find those old circular concrete planters ?  I really would love to know whoat GCRTA and The CIty came up with this plan? The Mayor should be embarrassed that all of his safety/terrorist paranoia ruined a perfectly functional design.

 

I have done an overlay showing the new crosswalk and street makings.  How would one correct this plan?

 

The way to correct it would be to go back to the original design. Unless they are planning on cutting back the amount of busses that go through the square than originally intended (is this true?), I anticipate this causing problems with the busses themselves getting thru the square. Squeezing them to one lane is pointless. Also, I can't see what purpose the planters in the middle of Superior west of the square serves.

^It's one lane in each direction only in the middle, as the busway crosses the crosswalk. There are still full width bus bays in both directions on either end, in additon to the travel lanes, so it's still effectively two lanes in each direction where it's needed. I expect that the bus traffic will flow fine.

^It's one lane in each direction only in the middle, as the busway crosses the crosswalk. There are still full width bus bays in both directions on either end, in additon to the travel lanes, so it's still effectively two lanes in each direction where it's needed. I expect that the bus traffic will flow fine.

 

I was just thinking about the busses that will be driving thru and not stopping, then you have the other busses picking up passengers trying to merge into the one lane condition, right at the light in the middle.

 

You might be right, and I may be over estimating the traffic.

Well, folks are already disregarding the concrete bollards they're installing and walking through the landscaping to cross at no designated crosswalk at all.  Good job city with these safety improvements. 

 

Anyone who's ever been to a college campus had to know that was going to happen....

A few pictures from today....

This is insane. And what the heck is the point of the planters in the way of the pathways?!?!

 

What the hell.

WTF is the city doing?  I swear they could screw up a one car parade.

Remember this when it's time to vote the mayor out of office.

Deplorable!  The terrorist's won IMHO.  Mayor Jackson's paranoia led to all these aesthetic choices.  The centralized crosswalk is a joke. KeyBank should ask for their name to be removed from the promenade sponsorship since it has been destroyed.  Cleveland looks as if it is the next big terrorist target.  Goodbye Public Square.

Anyone who's ever been to a college campus had to know that was going to happen....

 

At the University of Toledo, they weren't sure where to put the concrete paths through their quad.  So they waited till it snowed and went by the footprints.  In other words, they studied and prioritized the needs of the people they were doing it for.

^actually a very good idea.  it reminds me of sneck downs. 

Check out this video and watch how many people go around the new implemented K-Rail system blocking the KeyBank Promenade crosswalks. Instead of going towards the new centralized crosswalk they walk around the further outer ends of the K-Rail. Great planning by Cleveland's Traffic Engineers and RTA.  Love that they now have banned bicycles from Superior Ave going through Public Square

 

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/last-minute-changes-mark-public-square-reopening/419607178

 

 

WTF is the city doing?  I swear they could screw up a one car parade.

 

This is the same Mayor Jackson that said they hadn't talked at all about a Cavs parade even the day before Game 7 because "we don't jinx." Guess he's just not the plan ahead type.

WTF is the city doing?  I swear they could screw up a one car parade.

 

This is the same Mayor Jackson that said they hadn't talked at all about a Cavs parade even the day before Game 7 because "we don't jinx." Guess he's just not the plan ahead type.

 

And now he's implementing these half-assed "security" features to save face and cover the REAL reasons he was trying to keep buses off the square. 

KJP

Thanks for the insightful photos. I hope you don't mind that I have used one of your pics to demonstrate the newest hazards created by The City and RTA.  The funneling of pedestrians to the center crosswalk from the southeast Keybank Promenade ramp is blocked once you get to the area where the K-rail meets the additional temporary ADA ramp.  The path is too narrow for any safety standard.  Also just look at the numerous unmarked height trip conditions.  This includes the temporary ADA ramp's raised sides. 

 

 

Actually that photo was taken by PD reporter Ginger Christ. Mind if I forward your adapted photo her?

absolutely

 

Remember this when it's time to vote the mayor out of office.

 

Careful. Jackson is the lesser of six evils.

Remember this when it's time to vote the mayor out of office.

 

Careful. Jackson is the lesser of six evils.

 

Maybe at one time, but these days he's got them trounced in complacency and hubris.  The question becomes whether we're even able to remove a bad mayor.

He has blundered repeatedly with this public square foolishness, and it's looking like a total waste of money at this point. But compared to criminals like Reed and Johnson, he is still far and away the most qualified and frankly the most moral candidate so far.

The Mayor is having a hissy fit and destroying a park that received rave reviews nationally........unreal

Here is an aerial photograph that shows the new crossing layout and adjustments made to Public Square .

 

Does anyone know the reason for all the circular concrete planters placed along the KeyBank Promenade pathways  and the western and eastern sidewalk ends of Superior Avenue?  I hadn't seen a mention of these safety concerns. It is also interesting to see the layout of he temporary ADA ramps through the center crosswalk. The person with a disability will have to weave through others to get to the opposite ramp. Another example of an inappropriate safety layout.

 

Also note the throngs of people using the park!  :wink:

Here is an aerial photograph that shows the new crossing layout and adjustments made to Public Square .

 

Does anyone know the reason for all the circular concrete planters placed along the KeyBank Promenade pathways  and the western and eastern sidewalk ends of Superior Avenue?  I hadn't seen a mention of these safety concerns. It is also interesting to see the layout of he temporary ADA ramps through the center crosswalk. The person with a disability will have to weave through others to get to the opposite ramp. Another example of an inappropriate safety layout.

 

Also note the throngs of people using the park!  :wink:

 

My guess is that they are intended to prevent vehicles (aka Jackson's terrorists) from driving thru the park along the path.

^ That seems to be the case. But then why did the city leave those paths unprotected from the terrorists since the park opened in July (including during the RNC & Women's March)??

You hire a world class architect to design the square and then you do that to it....unbelievable. 

Holy. F***ing. Sh*t.

 

Mayor Jackson, you deserve to be run out of town on one of those ****ing K-rails.

 

 

I trust someone at the PD will be able to reach James Corner for comment on this atrocity?  I doubt he'll feel free to speak his mind but I wish he would.

RTA responded to an email and said The City of Cleveland s responsible for The K-Rails, new center crosswalk, and ADA ramps.  They had nothing to do with the design. Interesting since Mayor Jackson has blamed them for all the safety design flaws  during his entire debate.

 

 

Ah jersey barrier = k-rail. Good times adding more concrete to a public area.

And none of the changes went through the planning commission and design review.

RTA and the City are about to turn what was a beautiful, celebrated, people-centered public (front-door) park redo into a mess.

GCRTA tweeted this morning in response to a question that this is a temporary solution. I'd say it's on us to keep pressure on the city to ensure they provide a plan to a better long term solution

 

GCRTA tweeted this morning in response to a question that this is a temporary solution. I'd say it's on us to keep pressure on the city to ensure they provide a plan to a better long term solution

 

 

I would hope that the permanent solution is the original one. Once there are no issues, maybe they'll realize a mountain was made out of a molehill, and they can return the square to the original design intent.