8.5 feet is the standard width of a transit agency bus. 24 feet is plenty of room.

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

The terrorism thing was just a cover to close the square completely.  The terror attacks provided cover.  Trust me, Frank wanted a unified square the whole time.

8.5 feet is the standard width of a transit agency bus. 24 feet is plenty of room.

 

Thanks.  Good to know.

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

 

X is incorrect. This was a BS excuse from the beginning. Ginger Christ had a good write up about it last year https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/public_square_is_not_a_prime_t.html

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

 

Indeed, you can drive right onto Mall B.  With sufficient horsepower you could launch yourself over the Rock Hall and into the lake.  And then, with sufficient preparation, you could transform into a submarine and attack Canada. 

 

I'm not suggesting a truck attack on Public Square is a silly concern, it's not, but the city's handing of this is beyond silly. 

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

 

Who said it was?  As you rebuild spaces, you build them according to the design concerns of the day.  You don't say "let's not worry about truck attacks on Public Square because Perk Plaza wasn't built to protect against them."  Also, Public Square is one of the busiest pedestrian areas of the city.

 

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

 

X is incorrect. This was a BS excuse from the beginning. Ginger Christ had a good write up about it last year https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/public_square_is_not_a_prime_t.html

 

I'm not incorrect just because you posted a stupid article that talks around the point and says absolutely nothing about what anyone in charge of the decision making was doing or thinking when they made the decision in question.  What's the point of this article?  We shouldn't protect Public Square against truck attacks because other places in the city are also vulnerable?  What the hell kind of thinking is that?

 

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Considering the string of truck-based terrorism attacks that have happened globally since the decision was made it was no "faux" concern.  Rather, it was quite prescient.  Though if you're not a Jackson fan, I think you can give credit (he did) to his safety forces for requiring the design change.

 

This is a scapegoat of an excuse. How is Public Square any more or less vulnerable to a truck attack than any other public space downtown?

 

Indeed, you can drive right onto Mall B.  With sufficient horsepower you could launch yourself over the Rock Hall and into the lake.  And then, with sufficient preparation, you could transform into a submarine and attack Canada. 

 

I'm not suggesting a truck attack on Public Square is a silly concern, it's not, but the city's handing of this is beyond silly. 

 

A better solution should have been found by this point, if that's what you're getting at.

I may not totally buy the terrorism argument, but I do admit that the bollards look okay and blend in fairly well.

 

The part I really don’t get though (and no one could argue a change in conditions here like the truck attacks) is why they needed to alter the configuration of the crosswalk and lanes through the middle.

 

Adding all of the striping, changing the locations of the walk and signals, etc. Looks ugly and is a waste of money imo.

Agreed. Most importantly...people don’t even use it in the intended ‘safe’ way anyways! It’s all a sham. Spend 20 minutes watching and people are crossing all over superior, crossing at the crosswalk when the light isn’t changed, etc. people are going to use that crossing in the easiest manner possible no matter how many barricades they put up.

I may not totally buy the terrorism argument, but I do admit that the bollards look okay and blend in fairly well.

 

The part I really don’t get though (and no one could argue a change in conditions here like the truck attacks) is why they needed to alter the configuration of the crosswalk and lanes through the middle.

 

Adding all of the striping, changing the locations of the walk and signals, etc. Looks ugly and is a waste of money imo.

 

The truck attacks were never an issue.  The issue is Mayor Jackson's stubbornness on this.  I am generally a Mayor Jackson fan but I know from a very good source that he never intended to have the buses go through the square.  It's the reason he wanted the roadway to be paved in cobblestone like the rest of the square.  He agreed to allowing the compromise to get the square built in time for RNC. 

Bike Cleveland

‏@Bike_CLE

41m41 minutes ago

Looks like no bikes in this plan? The landing page at http://www.groupplan.org  shows bikes on the sidewalk in @CLEPublicSquare so perhaps we're just sticking with that current scenario? Good news? @BollardsofCTown gets about 140 fresh new friends.

 

 

Then TPH2[/member] makes a good point....

 

This seems like bad planning. We're going to have the Midway coming down Superior from the east, and then to the west we'll have the new bike lanes on the Detroit-Superior Bridge. But nothing to connect the two?

What gets me about this is even Steven Litt is trying to gloss over the original approved design of the square in his article:

 

"the bollards...would be spaced 40 inches apart on either side of the central crosswalk on Superior Avenue in the square"

 

The Square was never designed to have a central crosswalk. There were 2 crossings of Superior within the square, where the promenade intersected with Superior. Speaking of the promenade...

 

"the barriers were set down across elaborately paved walkways designed...to visually unify the square"

 

The design of the walkway was about visually *and physically* unifying the square. Watch Corner's presentation on the design. It's the key to creating a unified space that  concessions to bus traffic required Superior to remain open.

 

We cannot get a straight answer on why 2 crossings through the square became 1. Were the crossings, as designed, ADA compliant? If so, where is Corner's explanation? Were the designed compliant and not built compliant? If so, how did that happen?  And regardless of the fault, why are we insisting that the fix which harms the design of the space be perpetuated in the bollard solution?

 

**edit** Litt on Twitter wrote that the butterfly crossings would be made available to pedestrians in addition  to the crossing in the center. This is obvious but would these be actually signaled crossings or just places where people technically jaywalk?

What gets me about this is even Steven Litt is trying to gloss over the original approved design of the square in his article:

 

"the bollards...would be spaced 40 inches apart on either side of the central crosswalk on Superior Avenue in the square"

 

The Square was never designed to have a central crosswalk. There were 2 crossings of Superior within the square, where the promenade intersected with Superior. Speaking of the promenade...

 

"the barriers were set down across elaborately paved walkways designed...to visually unify the square"

 

The design of the walkway was about visually *and physically* unifying the square. Watch Corner's presentation on the design. It's the key to creating a unified space that  concessions to bus traffic required Superior to remain open.

 

We cannot get a straight answer on why 2 crossings through the square became 1. Were the crossings, as designed, ADA compliant? If so, where is Corner's explanation? Were the designed compliant and not built compliant? If so, how did that happen?  And regardless of the fault, why are we insisting that the fix which harms the design of the space be perpetuated in the bollard solution?

 

this is just another example of Cleveland leadership taking something that was designed well and hacking it up.  (see Health Line fare payment "solution")

What gets me about this is even Steven Litt is trying to gloss over the original approved design of the square in his article:

 

"the bollards...would be spaced 40 inches apart on either side of the central crosswalk on Superior Avenue in the square"

 

The Square was never designed to have a central crosswalk. There were 2 crossings of Superior within the square, where the promenade intersected with Superior. Speaking of the promenade...

 

"the barriers were set down across elaborately paved walkways designed...to visually unify the square"

 

The design of the walkway was about visually *and physically* unifying the square. Watch Corner's presentation on the design. It's the key to creating a unified space that  concessions to bus traffic required Superior to remain open.

 

We cannot get a straight answer on why 2 crossings through the square became 1. Were the crossings, as designed, ADA compliant? If so, where is Corner's explanation? Were the designed compliant and not built compliant? If so, how did that happen?  And regardless of the fault, why are we insisting that the fix which harms the design of the space be perpetuated in the bollard solution?

 

The plan shows bollards stretched across the entire central crossing area, which includes both the promenade crossings and the middle part.  We'll have to see how it's implemented and enforced, but I'm not sure there's anything in the plan that actually diverges from the original design intent.

 

EDIT: Of course, the plan shows a zebra striped crosswalk right in the middle, which wasn't originally there, but I mean it's not clear yet that you won't also be able to cross the busway in the promenades, as originally intended. That's where the bollards are spaced 40" apart. In the very middle, they are spaced 9' apart.

What gets me about this is even Steven Litt is trying to gloss over the original approved design of the square in his article:

 

"the bollards...would be spaced 40 inches apart on either side of the central crosswalk on Superior Avenue in the square"

 

The Square was never designed to have a central crosswalk. There were 2 crossings of Superior within the square, where the promenade intersected with Superior. Speaking of the promenade...

 

"the barriers were set down across elaborately paved walkways designed...to visually unify the square"

 

The design of the walkway was about visually *and physically* unifying the square. Watch Corner's presentation on the design. It's the key to creating a unified space that  concessions to bus traffic required Superior to remain open.

 

We cannot get a straight answer on why 2 crossings through the square became 1. Were the crossings, as designed, ADA compliant? If so, where is Corner's explanation? Were the designed compliant and not built compliant? If so, how did that happen?  And regardless of the fault, why are we insisting that the fix which harms the design of the space be perpetuated in the bollard solution?

 

The plan shows bollards stretched across the entire central crossing area, which includes both the promenade crossings and the middle part.  We'll have to see how it's implemented and enforced, but I'm not sure there's anything in the plan that actually diverges from the original design intent.

 

The new plan shows them extending the curb to the central area where they’ve relocated the crosswalk (with striping) and also relocated the ADA detectable warnings and pedestrian signals.

 

The original version had two crosswalks, one to the left and one to the right. Why do all of this work when two perfectly usable crosswalks are already there?

 

EDIT (to follow your edit :p): Yeah it looks like nothing will actually stop you from crossing where you want. Just seems like a waste of time and money to make this change.

This whole thing is so laughable. It sucks that buses run through Superior, but that battle was fought, lost, and now the mayor's OBVIOUS retaliation are ugly barricades or ludicrously expensive bollards.

 

Spend that money on security in the area instead Frank. It gets way too thorny around the casino, people throw their shit everywhere (do we NOT have littering laws?), and the place is like a holiday inn for homeless/panhandlers at night.

^^I agree with you. The bollards are fine, and if you buy the terrorism threat, an obvious solution that doesn't affect the design integrity. But the other changes are just signs of dysfunction.

So driving a car around PS sucks. Biking through there sucks. Now walking through there sucks.

 

What else is there to screw up at this point?

 

 

Walking through public square is quite pleasant. As is waiting for a bus on the square

if Mayor Jackson is concerned of the threat of vehicular terrorism aren't Malls A, B, and C just as vulnerable?  Does anyone know what is the reason the crosswalk has been shortened to 24 feet? 

if Mayor Jackson is concerned of the threat of vehicular terrorism aren't Malls A, B, and C just as vulnerable?  Does anyone know what is the reason the crosswalk has been shortened to 24 feet? 

 

Yes they are just as vulnerable, but terrorists want to kill as many people with their vehicles as they can, not make tire tracks on rarely-traversed grass lawns.

if Mayor Jackson is concerned of the threat of vehicular terrorism aren't Malls A, B, and C just as vulnerable?  Does anyone know what is the reason the crosswalk has been shortened to 24 feet? 

 

Hell Public Square is still vulnerable!  A dump truck at full speed from the Ontario side would be able to launch anywhere into the square.  Jackson is totally perpetuating the security dog and pony show.

Sometimes I think the only way to have a truly secure public square is to not have a public square at all. Anytime you have large groups of people together, it is going to be insecure. There may be options for making things totally secure, but I can't imagine them making life enjoyable.

Bike info. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/bike-ban-public-square

I am glad to hear that the local news is beginning to address the oversights to yet another attempt to modify the flawed redesign of Public Square. Interesting that Councilman Kerry McCormack is the only on eta comment on the lack of bike lanes from The City.  Shouldn't Anthony Coyne be held responsible since he is the head of the Group Plan Commission overseeing the design elements from Field Operations?

I was playing around with another option that would make the center area of Public Square safer and would include the reactivation of the promenades as crosswalk paths.  The need for the bollards would be obsolete. Replace them and define the center crosswalk with raised bed planters that mimic the designs of the others.  These add more greenery/planting areas and protects the pedestrians from the threat of terrorism from vehicles.  The added feature for safety and helps to define the center areas for use would be the addition of full barrier crossing arms, aka train traffic arms.  I also don't see why bikes would be banned from Superior. 

 

Public_Square_safety_modifaction_idea_copy.pdf

Call me a pessimist (aka a "realist" in the city of Cleveland) I'd give the train traffic arms about 2 weeks before an RTA driver took one out.  Then it would take the city of Cleveland a week to show up and duct-tape it back together, and at least a year to actually replace it. 

I'd rather have bollards than train traffic arms.

I'd rather have bollards than train traffic arms.

 

*Googles "what is a bollard"*

The traffic arms are a bit much IMO. I don't get why we can't just have the original crosswalks as well as bollards. It's as if the city thinks people have never seen a crosswalk before.

The original design was perfectly fine. Frank Jackson really screwed this thing up.

The eagles have landed: Long-gone Public Square statues find new downtown home

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2018/09/the_eagles_have_landed_long-go.html

APA's 2018 Great Places in America: Cleveland Public Square

 

Planning Excellence

 

Public Square is the physical and historic center of Cleveland, but for decades it was crossed by two major roads, dividing it into four smaller squares. A recent redesign has remade it into a grand gathering space in the center of downtown.

 

ublic Square was laid out in Cleveland’s original plan from 1796 by surveyors from the Connecticut Land Company. As part of Connecticut’s “Western Reserve,” the town was planned in the form of a traditional New England town. Public Square was the site of many historic events: President Lincoln lay in state there when his funeral train came to town, and the first electric street lights in the world were lit in 1879. Despite its history and central location, Public Square was not an appreciated space, serving primarily as a transit depot to connect from one streetcar line to another.

 

Two roads crossing through Public Square resulted in a space designed for cars, not people. A central part of the space’s 2016 redesign was the closing of Ontario Avenue to traffic and the reduction of Superior Avenue from 77 feet wide to 48 feet. This redesign created two larger rectangular public spaces, promoting pedestrian use with new paving materials that create a distinct public space.

 

The previous four quadrants of Public Square were merged into a single, cohesive public park with vehicle access restricted to buses, intended for use throughout the year with a range of programs and events. The new Public Square creates a space that is inviting and flexible, and landscape creates a soft colorful space that invites people in and encourages them to stay. The northern half includes a green sloped lawn.

 

Well-suited for casual everyday use, this design also creates a natural amphitheater for events like movie nights and concerts. The southern half of Public Square is a hardscape plaza that includes a cafe and seating, a speaker’s terrace, the Soldiers and Sailors Monument, and a mirrored-fountain water feature. This same space is transformed into a skating rink in the winter months.

 

MORE:

https://planning.org/greatplaces/spaces/2018/publicsquare/

 

Other winners:

https://planning.org/greatplaces/

APA's 2018 Great Places in America: Cleveland Public Square

 

Planning Excellence

 

Public Square is the physical and historic center of Cleveland, but for decades it was crossed by two major roads, dividing it into four smaller squares. A recent redesign has remade it into a grand gathering space in the center of downtown.

 

ublic Square was laid out in Cleveland’s original plan from 1796 by surveyors from the Connecticut Land Company. As part of Connecticut’s “Western Reserve,” the town was planned in the form of a traditional New England town. Public Square was the site of many historic events: President Lincoln lay in state there when his funeral train came to town, and the first electric street lights in the world were lit in 1879. Despite its history and central location, Public Square was not an appreciated space, serving primarily as a transit depot to connect from one streetcar line to another.

 

Two roads crossing through Public Square resulted in a space designed for cars, not people. A central part of the space’s 2016 redesign was the closing of Ontario Avenue to traffic and the reduction of Superior Avenue from 77 feet wide to 48 feet. This redesign created two larger rectangular public spaces, promoting pedestrian use with new paving materials that create a distinct public space.

 

The previous four quadrants of Public Square were merged into a single, cohesive public park with vehicle access restricted to buses, intended for use throughout the year with a range of programs and events. The new Public Square creates a space that is inviting and flexible, and landscape creates a soft colorful space that invites people in and encourages them to stay. The northern half includes a green sloped lawn.

 

Well-suited for casual everyday use, this design also creates a natural amphitheater for events like movie nights and concerts. The southern half of Public Square is a hardscape plaza that includes a cafe and seating, a speaker’s terrace, the Soldiers and Sailors Monument, and a mirrored-fountain water feature. This same space is transformed into a skating rink in the winter months.

 

MORE:

https://planning.org/greatplaces/spaces/2018/publicsquare/

 

Other winners:

https://planning.org/greatplaces/

 

It’s a great space if you overlook the concrete slabs obstructing the flow.

Its incredible how long its taking the city to proceed or find someone to pay for these bollards... I guess Key nor Huntington Bank are willing to hand out any more money.

Cleveland’s Public Square ranked among America's best public spaces https://t.co/AAWTjfCj10

Good maybe we can get it finished now?

What else needs to be done?

They really should go with the most expensive option since they finally decided that they really don’t want pedestrians any where near traffic. That wasn’t in the plans for this option that they decided on if one thinks back to the 4 final submissions. I thought the tunnel option would’ve been best if they were worried about pedestrians, which they obviously were. I’m not sure public sq could handle any more serious delays and digging at this point.

What else needs to be done?

 

Install the bollards, as planned. Then they can get rid of those awful jersey barriers.

Now THAT'S awesome!

 

Public Square gets free Wi-Fi

https://www.crainscleveland.com/technology/public-square-gets-free-wi-fi

FINALLY!  Never understood why the monument wasn't lit up... now if they can maintain it... and get rid of the godforsaken Jersey barriers.  Baby steps ?? ?

 

"Plans to spruce up Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Monument underway ahead of 125th anniversary

 

...The board is exploring the idea of brightening up the monument by installing LEDs around its spire, lighting the statues that adorn the exterior, and placing lights inside the monument so its stained glass windows can be seen throughout the night, Prasse said."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/2018/10/plans-to-spruce-up-soldiers-and-sailors-monument-underway-ahead-of-125th-anniversary.html

Does anyone know whom decides where the official Christmas tree is placed in Public Square? This year's placement is an odd choice ,since it is not placed centrally.  It is west of the  central crosswalk.   The past three years have seen it placed in three different locations.  I would prefer it to be along a central axis since Public Square is mostly a symmetrical layout. Other than that Public Square always looks great  during Winterfest.

We were in Pittsburgh for their winterfest on Saturday. It was at Market Square and PPG Place. It was wide open with no visible vehicle barriers and a small police presence with lots of temporary gingerbread-style cabins set up around the square containing shops, hot chocolate/coffee/pastry cafes, a sit-with-Santa and a stage for musicians (not too loud) with chairs/tables set up in front of stage with local musicians playing not too loudly. Oh, and their Christmas tree was set in the middle of a large skating rink, probably several times larger than Cleveland's rink. All this just a month after brutal terrorist attack in Pittsburgh. The city basically said we're not going to be afraid. We're going to be open to people. 

 

Cleveland's Winterfest felt like a militarized zone with all the tall metal fencing, concrete vehicle barricades and heavy police presence. My wife said it made her feel unsafe. We couldn't even walk directly from Public Square to the Cleveland Public Library to see the marionette play of Peter & The Wolf. West Roadway and Superior were completely blocked by the high fencing and the stage that had no seating in front. The music was blaring loud and hurt my son's ears. Police told us to walk around the north side of the square and on Rockwell to get to the front entrance of the library on Superior. We were late for the start of the play.

 

Here are some photos....

Edited November 25, 20186 yr by KJP

I wasn’t able to go this year, but I remember all the fencing last year. I thought then that the excuse was firework safety. Even if that’s the case they need to be thinking about how people will be moving between different events. That’s a shame.

Pittsburgh's Market Square setup is far superior to Cleveland's.  I do not understand why/whom has made these poor decisions that are unwelcoming to a public space. The aesthetic's of the shipping container for the ice rink should/could be themed to be more festive.

The City of Cleveland are not great planners of anything, and certainly not events!

On 11/25/2018 at 9:18 AM, Enginerd said:

I wasn’t able to go this year, but I remember all the fencing last year. I thought then that the excuse was firework safety. Even if that’s the case they need to be thinking about how people will be moving between different events. That’s a shame.

 

Good point about the fireworks safety. But did it need to be closed off hours before the fireworks?

The lack of hills in Cleveland, compared with Pittsburgh, requires us to install additional fences and barriers.  Our hands are tied.

What are you talking about? Where are the hills in/near Market Square??