June 18, 20204 yr 7 minutes ago, KJP said: https://twitter.com/mjarboe/status/1273690386586877955?s=20 @KJP Have you heard if Rebol is re-opening?
June 18, 20204 yr Author 1 minute ago, stpats44113 said: @KJP Have you heard if Rebol is re-opening? No, but I've not checked with anyone either. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 19, 20204 yr https://fox8.com/news/artists-replace-plywood-covered-storefronts-with-murals-in-downtown-cleveland/ This video features the artist behind the Rebol's mural. Nice to see something positive painted onto the plywood until the windows are restored Edited June 19, 20204 yr by dave2017
June 19, 20204 yr 2 hours ago, mack34 said: Rebol is re-opening.....You can check their Instagram and Facebook announcements Sweet, thanks @mack34. I guess I should have checked social media first.
June 19, 20204 yr No worries.....I asked the same question on twitter and was directed to their Instagram!!
September 24, 20204 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 3, 20214 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/03/ugly-concrete-barriers-mark-4th-anniversary-in-public-square-as-planners-continue-to-seek-a-fix.html
April 22, 20214 yr On 3/3/2021 at 12:42 PM, skiwest said: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/03/ugly-concrete-barriers-mark-4th-anniversary-in-public-square-as-planners-continue-to-seek-a-fix.html Those barriers and the lack of a fix for the past 4 years is a true representation of how inept Cleveland leadership is despite all of the progress we've made.
April 22, 20214 yr 10 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Those barriers and the lack of a fix for the past 4 years is a true representation of how inept Cleveland leadership is despite all of the progress we've made. Maybe. Or perhaps the city will once again try to close it to traffic permanently.
April 22, 20214 yr 13 minutes ago, skiwest said: Maybe. Or perhaps the city will once again try to close it to traffic permanently. Okay, but when. Does Mercury have to be in retrograde?
April 22, 20214 yr When the time is right. I assume the FTA can not impose their will on the city forever.
May 3, 20214 yr Author On 4/22/2021 at 10:42 AM, skiwest said: When the time is right. I assume the FTA can not impose their will on the city forever. You underestimate the FTA and federal agencies in general. If that will survived Trump, it can survive anything. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 25, 20213 yr Is this truly the Christmas miracle we’ve been waiting for? @mack34 @mrclifton88 When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
August 25, 20213 yr @Boomerang_BrianI am going to need an official statement because we have been misled before...
August 25, 20213 yr And in other news, there were no hostage takers -- the jersey barriers were just temporarily removed from Public Square for cleaning and will soon be returned. Freshly power washed.... 😁
August 25, 20213 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 10, 20213 yr Posted on the Cleveland Architectural Legacy Facebook group today. Public Square in 1940. But buses should have to go around the square....pffffttt.
September 10, 20213 yr That voter approved subway in the 50s would have eliminated a lot of busses on Public Square and other downtown streets.
March 5, 20223 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/03/mayor-justin-bibb-wants-cleveland-to-spend-15-million-to-replace-concrete-barriers-in-public-square-with-less-obtrusive-bollards.html With this news that the jersey barriers will soon be removed is there any chance the central crosswalk could be removed and the 2 original crossings can be restored? I am also perplexed by the idea of the bollards across Superior Avenue at the east and west entrances. Nora Romanoff ,of Land_Studio, initially responded to an email I sent prior to the 2016 opening and stated they couldn't put retractable bollards in because of underground utilities. Now it states that is a possibility again. I also hope they can address the constant use by Rebol as a parking lot for their use. The vehicles seem to sit longer than a quick unload. One last thought. What if the current efforts to raise funds for the bollards instead grew from the $3.5 million cost to the $12 million dollars needed to give back to the Feds to allow Superior to be closed permanently through Public Square? I would prefer this and would love to see how Field Operations would enhance the removal of the roadway
March 8, 20223 yr https://www.cleveland.com/darcy/2022/03/public-square-bollards-good-not-price-darcy-cartoon.html
March 8, 20223 yr Just ship those ugly things to Frank and family's homes. Meaningless security theater, which, in this case, was due to Frank's hurt feelings that Public Square had to remain open for traffic. Forget this bollard bollocks. Muslim terrorists, Trump insurrectionists, or Portland antifa aren't going to bother the residents at May Company or the Park building.
March 8, 20223 yr 27 minutes ago, TBideon said: Just ship those ugly things to Frank and family's homes. Meaningless security theater, which, in this case, was due to Frank's hurt feelings that Public Square had to remain open for traffic. Maybe Frank was hoping it could eventually be closed to traffic and was just waiting for the right time to try again.
March 9, 20223 yr On 3/5/2022 at 5:57 PM, dave2017 said: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/03/mayor-justin-bibb-wants-cleveland-to-spend-15-million-to-replace-concrete-barriers-in-public-square-with-less-obtrusive-bollards.html With this news that the jersey barriers will soon be removed is there any chance the central crosswalk could be removed and the 2 original crossings can be restored? I am also perplexed by the idea of the bollards across Superior Avenue at the east and west entrances. Nora Romanoff ,of Land_Studio, initially responded to an email I sent prior to the 2016 opening and stated they couldn't put retractable bollards in because of underground utilities. Now it states that is a possibility again. I also hope they can address the constant use by Rebol as a parking lot for their use. The vehicles seem to sit longer than a quick unload. One last thought. What if the current efforts to raise funds for the bollards instead grew from the $3.5 million cost to the $12 million dollars needed to give back to the Feds to allow Superior to be closed permanently through Public Square? I would prefer this and would love to see how Field Operations would enhance the removal of the roadway FWIW, in the French Quarter we have sliding bollards . I wonder if they are looking for something similar for PS
March 9, 20223 yr We'd be better off burning the money and keeping some homeless warm for a bit. An absolutely unnecessary scam. Public Square seemed to survive before this sh*t was a thought. As for NOLA, I could see them more a target due to the massive tourist populations and refineries. Perhaps it makes sense there.
March 9, 20223 yr 17 minutes ago, TBideon said: We'd be better off burning the money and keeping some homeless warm for a bit. An absolutely unnecessary scam. Public Square seemed to survive before this sh*t was a thought. As for NOLA, I could see them more a target due to the massive tourist populations and refineries. Perhaps it makes sense there. Just remove the jersey barriers and let the square function as designed. This isn't hard.
March 9, 20223 yr I never understood Jackson's excuse for "terrorism" in placing the barriers on Superior. Anyone could drive a dump truck at full speed northbound on Ontario and probably jump half way across the southern section. Jackson clearly had other interests pulling his strings.
March 12, 20223 yr I don't think Jackson was the one concerned with terrorists. I thought it was the Feds driving it. At any rate l see this whole fiasco as a beurocratic sh*tshow. The whole thing is nothing but lunacy and wasted time and dollars. And besides that, l'm not all that happy with the finished product. Forcing us to keep a road through the Square created a piss poor design. Not to mention those itty bitty fountains are terrible. If your going to put in a water feature put in a water feature. Not that little sprinkler. And budget for the damn landscaping.
March 12, 20223 yr I would like to see the square unified someday. Hopefully I will live long enough.
March 12, 20223 yr 44 minutes ago, cadmen said: I don't think Jackson was the one concerned with terrorists. I thought it was the Feds driving it. At any rate l see this whole fiasco as a beurocratic sh*tshow. The whole thing is nothing but lunacy and wasted time and dollars. No, the Jersey barriers were 100% the Jackson administration. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 12, 20223 yr But why? What would be the point? I remember he wanted the Square closed to traffic but the Feds said it needed to be open or they wouldn't contribute money to the project (which was probably a make or break thing). So after it was finished and Jackson couldn't close it AND there was no money for the bollards after the fact he had the jersey barriers put in temporarily until there was a resolution. Since the Feds wouldn't budge we got a stand-off. Until now when Bibb said he would somehow find the cash to finally remove the barriers and put in the bollards. At any rate, that's how l understand the situation.
March 12, 20223 yr 11 minutes ago, cadmen said: But why? What would be the point? I remember he wanted the Square closed to traffic but the Feds said it needed to be open or they wouldn't contribute money to the project (which was probably a make or break thing). Although irrelevant to the point you are making, I believe the issue with the federal government was not they were going to balk at contributing money to the square re design/reconstruction if the square was completely closed, but that the city would have had to return a huge sum of money received from the Department of Transportation for the Euclid Avenue BRT project which had been completed a number of years earlier.per certain restrictions related to that grant of money.
March 12, 20223 yr 29 minutes ago, Htsguy said: Although irrelevant to the point you are making, I believe the issue with the federal government was not they were going to balk at contributing money to the square re design/reconstruction if the square was completely closed, but that the city would have had to return a huge sum of money received from the Department of Transportation for the Euclid Avenue BRT project which had been completed a number of years earlier.per certain restrictions related to that grant of money. In addition, isn't superior and the D-S Bridge considered a state and federal route? I think that hasn't to factor in funding. but not the square redevelopment. the city and county need to do more.
March 12, 20223 yr I do remember something about having to return the Fed money for the previously built BRT line now that you mention it. I also remember thinking what does one project have to do with the other. But that's our government for you. And yes, Superior is a Federal road so that was their beef regarding closing it through the Square. Thanks for both of your input. At any rate, my original thought was that Jackson did install the barriers temporarily until there was a resolution. It does piss me off that we seem to have an inordinate amount of complications/problems when we want to get something done in Cleveland. I just came back from Phoenix. Somehow in car centric Phoenix they have managed to build a light rail. So have a bunch of other cities across the US but we couldn't figure out how to pay for it down Euclid. Plus, why is it do damn expensive in the first place? You're talking about laying down so tracks in the asphalt. They do it in Europe every day for a fraction of the cost. WTF.
March 13, 20223 yr ^ You can probably thank Norm Krumholz for that. He hated rail and opposed every rail proposal in Cleveland. He seemed to wield a lot of power even in his later years when he was no longer working for the city.
March 13, 20223 yr 19 hours ago, cadmen said: I do remember something about having to return the Fed money for the previously built BRT line now that you mention it. I also remember thinking what does one project have to do with the other. But that's our government for you. And yes, Superior is a Federal road so that was their beef regarding closing it through the Square. Thanks for both of your input. At any rate, my original thought was that Jackson did install the barriers temporarily until there was a resolution. It does piss me off that we seem to have an inordinate amount of complications/problems when we want to get something done in Cleveland. I just came back from Phoenix. Somehow in car centric Phoenix they have managed to build a light rail. So have a bunch of other cities across the US but we couldn't figure out how to pay for it down Euclid. Plus, why is it do damn expensive in the first place? You're talking about laying down so tracks in the asphalt. They do it in Europe every day for a fraction of the cost. WTF. Again, the Jersey Barriers had absolutely nothing to do with the Federal Government. The Jackson administration resented the fact the Federal transportation policy required that Superior be open to bus traffic to meet the agreements that all levels of government had come to in order to line up funding for redoing the Square. The Jackson administration then tried to undermine that agreement by keeping Superior closed. The federal transportation people made it clear that RTA would have to refund a big chunk of money if they couldn’t use Superior. (And this IS justified - going around the Square does add significant operating time and therefore operating cost for an RTA that is desperately struggling.) Eventually the Jackson administration relented and opened Superior for buses, but they invented a “domestic terrorism” concern and installed the Jersey Barriers, violating the original design. (If this had actually been in concern during planning phases, the design could have been implemented differently.) By all appearances, the Jersey Barrier installation seemed to be a desperation play to try and convince other stakeholders to keep it closed and try and convince the Feds to not require the reimbursements. The Feds stood firm. Instead of simply acknowledging that they didn’t win the argument and moving on, the Jackson Administration decided to leave the barriers. To me it seems more like a face-saving move than an actual concern. Extremely frustrating situation. Now to your other point - yes, the HealthLine SHOULD have been light rail (with a subway downtown), and that was the original RTA Dual Hub proposal in the mid-90s. The city of Cleveland was generally supportive of that proposal, but unfortunately too many people in power (NOACA at the time, other county officials, business community leaders, etc) did not realize how completely transformative the dual hub light rail could be and continued watering it down until it became the HealthLine. I do wonder if maybe they could have gotten traction if Grace Gallucci or someone like her had been running NOACA at the time - she is MUCH better than the typical leadership we’ve had in this county. And yes, one of the major contributing factors is the outrageous project costs for nearly everything in this county as compared to the rest of the world. This problem is every bit as prevalent in highway projects as other transportation, but highways have enough political capital behind them to still get done. Since the vast majority of Americans have no experience with good public transit systems and how much their lives can be improved by them, public transit doesn’t get the political support. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 14, 20223 yr Brian, I'm with you on everything you're saying except I still can't make sense of your barrier explanation. First, my memory about the terrorist explanation was that it came from a PD article and as I recall it was the Feds who were concerned not the city. And even though I thought it was a lame concern I could see the Feds coming up with something like that because if anything I associate terrorism laws with the Feds and not the city. But if your are correct then you are also saying that Bibb is equally concerned about terrorism right? Because if Bibb wasn't concerned he would just remove the barriers and replace them with nothing. But he's not doing that. In fact, he's somehow come up with a not small sum of cash to replace the barriers with bollards. Why go to the expense for no reason? We agree Jackson, in a fit of pique put the barriers in place. Bibb could just remove them and be done with the issue if it was simply a Jackson thing. Unless, as I maintain Bibb is forced to either keep the barriers or replace them with the expensive bollards. What he can't do is replace them with nothing because it's the Feds who are demanding that SOMETHING be put in place to separate the public areas from the roadway. If the barriers were just a Jackson issue he's gone and the barriers could be gone with him. But it's still an issue because it's the Feds and not the city who are demanding the separation. We could resolve this if one of us spent some time researching the history but that seems like too much trouble, at least on my end lol.
March 14, 20223 yr 7 hours ago, cadmen said: Brian, I'm with you on everything you're saying except I still can't make sense of your barrier explanation. First, my memory about the terrorist explanation was that it came from a PD article and as I recall it was the Feds who were concerned not the city. And even though I thought it was a lame concern I could see the Feds coming up with something like that because if anything I associate terrorism laws with the Feds and not the city. But if your are correct then you are also saying that Bibb is equally concerned about terrorism right? Because if Bibb wasn't concerned he would just remove the barriers and replace them with nothing. But he's not doing that. In fact, he's somehow come up with a not small sum of cash to replace the barriers with bollards. Why go to the expense for no reason? We agree Jackson, in a fit of pique put the barriers in place. Bibb could just remove them and be done with the issue if it was simply a Jackson thing. Unless, as I maintain Bibb is forced to either keep the barriers or replace them with the expensive bollards. What he can't do is replace them with nothing because it's the Feds who are demanding that SOMETHING be put in place to separate the public areas from the roadway. If the barriers were just a Jackson issue he's gone and the barriers could be gone with him. But it's still an issue because it's the Feds and not the city who are demanding the separation. We could resolve this if one of us spent some time researching the history but that seems like too much trouble, at least on my end lol. I am a big fan of bollards. They improve safety. If the Bibb administration is able to leverage this into an investment in bollards, I’ll be happy. Removing the barriers on day 1 would have embarrassed the Jackson administration - perhaps Bibb felt it would be better to allow them to save face by giving at least the appearance of studying the issue before acting. Bibb knows he needs to build coalitions to be able to be successful. As much as I hate the barriers, I’m in with this approach as long as they don’t stay too much longer. (I’d emphasize that this entirely speculation on my part.) I’m still quite confident there was never any mandate from the Feds with regards to domestic terrorism. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 15, 20223 yr I don't see the need for the bollards or the barriers. Field Ops didn't see the need to make them part of the design. I'm sure they studied that option. Just go with how it was originally designed.
March 15, 20223 yr 9 minutes ago, freethink said: I don't see the need for the bollards or the barriers. Field Ops didn't see the need to make them part of the design. I'm sure they studied that option. Just go with how it was originally designed. Ya. That entire "security" thing is BS. Just get rid of the jersey barriers already.
March 15, 20223 yr Well of course l also agree with the idea to just get rid of the barriers AND save the bollard money for something else. My position assumes Brian is correct in that there is no Fed mandate to have some kind of separation of the park and road. But if l'm correct that it's the Fed's mandating a separation then cheers to Bibb for finding bollard money.
March 15, 20223 yr I don't know... keeping those eyesores to appease Frank's fools seems like a stretch. Perhaps Mayor Bibb just hasn't gotten around to it, and that other things have merited attention. Or perhaps he wants the bollards as a capital improvement project so there can be photo ops, geriatrics with shovels, diverse children happily cheering nearby, all of which are capped with an inaccessible and poorly worded cleveland.com article. Kind of an easy win there. Edited March 15, 20223 yr by TBideon
March 15, 20223 yr Bollards or no, hopefully this means Superior through PS will change to buses yielding to pedestrians, instead of having a light and crosswalk in the middle of PS.
March 17, 20223 yr Can someone downtown today visually confirm the jersey barriers have been removed? I’ve heard that they’re gone.
March 17, 20223 yr they should build a playground in the middle of the grass with a sidewalk going around it so kids can play and people can cut thru without ruining the rest of the lawn. and looking back, it is also unclear to me if they need the bollards. It wasn't really well reported at the time and my memory of it has faded. It almost looks like the city hired a consulting firm to recommend bollards/barriers to reduce 'terroristic threats' because Jackson wouldn't open up the street unless his concerns about it were addressed and RTA went along with it because of the potential 12 million dollar FTA fine. It looks murky enough that it would be helpful if a reporter asked the city if it is actually a requirement and do we need them if it isn't. Edited March 17, 20223 yr by Whipjacka
March 17, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: they should build a playground in the middle of the grass with a sidewalk going around it so kids can play and people can cut thru without ruining the rest of the lawn. and looking back, it is also unclear to me if they need the bollards. It wasn't really well reported at the time and my memory of it has faded. It almost looks like the city hired a consulting firm to recommend bollards/barriers to reduce 'terroristic threats' because Jackson wouldn't open up the street unless his concerns about it were addressed and RTA went along with it because of the potential 12 million dollar FTA fine. It looks murky enough that it would be helpful if a reporter asked the city if it is actually a requirement and do we need them if it isn't. No need for bollards or barriers. I don't see how the square is any different from any other stretch of sidewalk. There is no barrier needed for "terrorism" reasons.
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