I think the idea here is that (1) we can't make Public Square busier by unethically ridding it of panhandlers and (2) even if it was rid of panhandlers it's quite possible people wouldn't go there anyway due to the terrible land usage.

 

Alright, problem identified, now fix it! :)

^^You're right.  Bag 'em, tag 'em, and ship 'em out.

 

:roll: It feels good to overexaggerate others' observations and feelings.

I lived in Cleveland and encountered pan handlers

I lived in Columbus and encountered pan handlers

I lived in Chicago and encountered pan handlers

I lived in Jackson, MS and encountered pan handlers

I lived in Shanghai and encountered pan handlers

 

The point is, panhandlers are in every city, and they tend to hang out in the busiest parts of town.  If we improve PS and the mall, the odds of eliminating pan handlers are slim to none.

 

 

 

 

There are no panhandlers in Strongsville, Brunswick, Brecksville or Beachwood.  Except for the occasional freeway exit ramp solicitor, but most of these are charged with some sort of first degree felony by the suburban police departments. ;)

 

I think any of us active on this urban-centric site can safely say they have encountered panhandlers and do not feel threatened in the slightest.

 

I am sad to say I know plenty of Susy Strongsvilles and Bobby Brecksvilles that do not frequent downtown because their narrow perceptions are these panhandlers pose some sort of threat.  During these down economic times they are more inclined to feel this way.

 

Agree with you punch--the panhandlers will not go away, they will only be in better surroundings should we redesign the square.  The only thing that will reduce their numbers is legal action (which lacks precedent to enforce) or improving the jobs/economic outlook, which may take some of the fringe panhandlers off the street and back into gainful employment.

 

I am for the latter--it's all about the jobs.  We can polish Cleveland any way we see fit, but without new economic development the decline shall continue.

 

 

it just doesnt stand out as much here. 

 

And that is probably because of dillution.  More people on the street just makes the homeless less noticeable.  Question - when I was a kid and went to DC, I remember being overwhelmed by the homeless presence.  And it just wasn't lazy bums, but people who looked in true despair with severe disformities, etc.  What did DC do?  Or is this still a 'problem' today?

 

Well that would be a case of dillusion.  The homeless are plenty here, but the city has made a remarkable comeback, so there are basically people everywhere (lots of activity).  So it isnt nearly as apparent as it is in PS or as it would have been 10 years ago here.  You dont feel so much like a target as you would walking across Public Square.

All panhandlers are not created equally.  They can vary from one to the next, and also from one city to the next.  When I lived in Seattle, I was seldom if ever "approached" by a panhandler.  They sat with a sign, or asked people- politely- for change as they passed by.  In Cleveland, they often try to interrupt your progress, tell you their story, ask several times, follow you.  I have seen them get violent with "Susy Strongsville" and "Bobby Brecksville".  Cleveland certainly isn't the worst.  In Vancouver, SOP seemed to be to ask for money, then threaten your life if you didn't immediately cough up cash. 

 

I don't know what causes this difference, if it's law or culture, but it makes a big difference in how much of a "problem" panhandlers are.

We can not eliminate "beggers", so putting that as a goal is futile.

 

Now, if we have situations were people are aggressive, or mentally unstable, I feel we can work towards solutions.

 

The downtown ambassadors, do they cover the square?  It may be an issue of more police, DCA people, (and if we are thinking big picture here) maybe team up with mental health experts on how to handle some of the people.

 

I think we are getting a bit off topic. 

 

Let try to swing it back to the land use of the PS area.

 

 

Yes, the downtown ambassadors cover Public Square.

But they can't clean the square  :x

They are undesirable and annoying to almost everyone. As has been pointed out, some feel they are threatening, and has also been pointed out, it's probably the nature of the design of the square and it's use as a public transit hub that draws the homeless, and no you can't get rid of them, they are in all other major cities as well, but they are a contributing factor among others that make it an undesirable place for people to be when they have an option of what to do with their time (e.g. not going to/from work). If you want more people choosing to be in and around PS during their leisure time, let alone live there, something has to change so that the only people "drawn" there are not vaguely threatening loiterers using drugs or acting weird or peeing in fountains, homeless people bothering passers-by, and loud, gang-fighting youth who block the sidewalk and either glare at you or wolf whistle you as you walk past.

if someone sees bad behavior, such as peeing in a fountain, they should help out and report them. Same with if you aggressively panhandled.

Is there a hotline for something like that? I would assume if DCA isn't allowed to clean there, they also wouldn't be allowed to deal with people there, but perhaps that's incorrect. Certainly the police aren't going to come for that, they won't even come if your car is vandalized and you are stranded.

I've gotta step in and say that I'm one of those people in Public Square waiting for a bus, and I can't imagine too many scenarios that would make being rerouted to the East Side Transit Center or the proposed Warehouse Center very palatable, particularly if it's going to result in similar conversations about how said centers are scaring away pedestrian activity in College Town or the WD. As is, because most east-west lines have been cut in two, with connection points in Public Square, I typically have 10 - 30 minute layover in Public Square. Riding from Asiatown to Gordon Square, an approximately 5-mile trip, typically takes me 45 minutes if I'm fortunate enough to catch the bus "just-in-time" on the Asiatown end. Moreover, as I'm car-free, I frequently take advantage of bus-to-train connections from Public Square. The types of rerouting some are advocating could potentially add additional time to what is already a bit of a time hardship on me and fellow riders. I'm joining the folks who are advocating leaving the bus transit as is and finding other ways to make the space a more hospitable environment through thoughtful design.

 

And frankly, I've been going through Public Square frequently for years, and while I run across panhandlers frequently, I have never, ever been in a situation where I was endangered or feared for my safety. I think a lot of this has to do with the perception of rather sheltered suburbanites, and I think when we've tried to plan and design for the lowest common denominator of ill-informed suburbanites, it's typically had disastrous impact on our built environment (see the Cleve's assortment of surface parking lots and "defensive" architecture). 

On another but related note, I've interacted with two guys waiting for the bus in the past week who had both been picked up for panhandling on Public Square. Granted, anectdotal, but that strikes me as being pretty aggressive enforcement of the existing rules.

So, we have an opportunity to change the square.  Lets say the busses stay.  What can be done to encourage people to use the square more?  Ampitheater?  Dog park?  Fountains?

8Shades, I don't think anyone is proposing that buses bypass the tower city area.  As I understand it, buses serving downtown are definitely going to be rerouted to have their layovers at the transit center(s) under any scenario- that's part of why they're being built.  Pulling all the idle buses off Prospect, where several routes have traditionally laid over, would free curb space for more stops, allowing for an altered downtown distribution routing pattern that relied less heavily on public square itself, but still accomodating convenient bus-rail transfers.  I have no idea if it's viable, but if the volume of bus traffic makes uniting the quadrant more palatable, I think it's definitely worth investigating. To many of us this question is entirely separate from the "bus stops make public square uninviting" issue.

 

EDIT: just a reminder too, that this whole issue is a legacy of going with BRT instead of Dual Hub.  By improving downtown rail distribution, Dual Hub would have allowed RTA to have removed a lot of buses from downtown streets.

Can we set up some sort of system where homeless people can get money for bringing in bags of trash?  At least they can clean up the area a bit.

 

Good line of thought.  But they would just go empty out a dumpster and make a killing.  Plus, the laborers union decision would probably apply.

I think it is multifaceted.  On the weekends there are plenty of people from the suburbs who flock to the West Side Market.  Why?  Because it is a destination that people want to go to.  I also notice though that the panhandlers (and street performers for that matter) don't seem to be as prevalent.  There is typically one person selling a newspaper to support the homeless. 

 

So, what needs to occur at PS is to make it a destination that people want to go to, including the suburbanites, AND control what happens with panhandlers so that people do feel safe and want to support downtown. 

Differences between Cleveland and other places, are WHERE there are panhandlers. Paris, there are panhandlers EVERywhere. Much worse than here. BUT they manage to keep them away from the real good stuff. None in the Louvre, or Jardin des Tuilleries. None at l'arch de triomphe, etc.

 

So if we take them away from Public Square, where will they go? What will happen?

let them stay there with all the busses, make euclid avenue nice and the malls nice

Like it or not, but it is a "public" square for everyone, including the homeless, young minorities, or people who don't look/act like sanitized suburbanites. And if you don't like how certain members of the public behave, then ask for better policing and/or become more tolerant that cities are where all types of people come together.

 

IMO, this is sort of glossing over the drab scene. 

 

No one has to become "tolerant" of what is often a lot of illegal behavior/activity that goes on there. One of the factors making it less than inviting inthe first place, besides design. 

 

Again, IMO...Tolerating certain inappropriate activity is a cop out/rationale to accept what deep down one may realize has no socially redeeming value, or that they feel they have no control over.

 

On the "sanitized suburbanite" title....Does this also mean that only people in the burbs look "sanitized?" Oh, its the stereo-type/tru-ism which I tend to agree with, however..... Not nice to generalize like that...because such a comment is seldom gotten away with if it were they looking back in the other way. Anyway, I live in the city proper and clean up/exercise basic hygiene and do not take craps in broad daylight in public...so what is the label I get slapped upon my forehead?  :-o

 

Funny...as much as I am near the square....on it...walk through it or around it...or drive by it when working, etc... I see not a whole lot more than some of the less than welcoming scenes we have been discussing.  I think that if we had all these optimistic and tolerant UO'ers on it at any given time, it might make it even more friendly.  :roll:

 

How about we all step away from the screen for a bit and make it a destination for a social and make that become a reality. Let's show how much we stand by it AS IS...and will use it no matter what the scene and will tolerate whatever!

 

Monday, Wednesday or Friday after 5:00 PM is good for me. See you there. Or not?  :wtf:  Hmmm where are all these square supporters?

 

 

 

I'm not sure I want to meet you there, EC.  Bad things always seem to happen whenever you are on the square.  I have never seen anyone pissing in a fountain, and don't want to.  Neither do I want to see other things I have never personally witnessed on PS, such as gang fights or homeless people beating up pedestrians.  But if anyone with some better luck wants to meet for a social gathering, I might be game.  Since litter is such a complaint, how about organizing a clean-up like you admirably organize for Edgewater?  I don't think the union could complain since UO has no official connection to the City.

We are currently working on an anti-litter campaign awareness project that we want to pilot in a few neighborhoods and get schools and many other parties on board. This is happening and already started. We need more people to do the delegated jobs assigned, however, and more to join in. I announced this on UO, but with little interest. We found much more at the block clubs where people actually show up.

 

As for the square litter, this area in particular needs more responsibility taken on all parties involved in creating the mess in the first place---which again, involves the city, and RTA. Cleaning it up, although an ongoing important component to abating or curbing the problem, is simply not enough. Doing that on certain areas of the square, w/o also incorporating more enforcement of any rules, laws, or ordinances designed to keep it at bay....only sends a message that someone will always be there to clean up someone else's mess. But, yeah, keeping it clean is important too, or you lose it. A balance of both needs to happen and this is the example we are going to attempt to promote.

 

There needs at some time to promote accountability and regard for the city ordinances and state laws on litter/illegal dumping. Since enforcement has virtually been non-existent, some must then think it is their right to do so, or that they are entitled to do it.

 

So, this is where this campaign will focus on too... raising the awareness that it is actually illegal. When the individual is given the free will to abide by the law and then fails to acknowledge it, it then becomes time to pull out the crying Indian again and start all over.

 

There are meetings now each month and you, or anyone else is more than welcome to come and listen to what we are doing, and perhaps become involved. I want to note, however, that litter is not "my issue" it is something that affects everyone and this city's image and many other negatives (for one costing the state 8 million to clean up just along highways in '07/'08) and definite link to the broken window theory. Investors are given a choice of where to invest, so seeing a place look crappy exudes carelessness on the community's part and therefore does little to sell the potential investment.

Is there a hotline for something like that? I would assume if DCA isn't allowed to clean there, they also wouldn't be allowed to deal with people there, but perhaps that's incorrect. Certainly the police aren't going to come for that, they won't even come if your car is vandalized and you are stranded.

 

Call the Downtown Cleveland Alliance at 216-621-6000.  If they can't send an ambassador there, they will contact the police for you.  Also, these calls are documented and used by police and DCA to figure out where they should put their resources.  If panhandling calls from Public Square increase tenfold, that area will become a priority.

So, we have an opportunity to change the square. Lets say the busses stay. What can be done to encourage people to use the square more? Ampitheater? Dog park? Fountains?

 

You're right.  Even if the number of "bad apples" remains the same, if we can increase the number of good apples, the overall feeling may improve.  (and please no "one bad apple spoils the bunch" note here...)

 

Ampitheater - Maybe.  Even if the four quadrant setup remained the same, if they could make some permanent, outdoor, public gathering space with built in seating of some type, that could be something people would go to.  But then you have to PROGRAM it.  People aren't just going to show up.  Something has to be scheduled at least once a week.

 

Dog park - As a downtown dog owner, I really want a dog park downtown as I'm sure the 900 downtown dogs do as well.  And I know there's discussion of it.  And dog owners would go there.  My only hesitation to putting it in Public Square would be the giant fence that comes along with the dog park.  Would it fit in within that setting?  I'm not sure.

 

Fountains - You mean NEW fountains?  There's already a fountain in the northeast quadrant.  I like the idea of a "water feature" where kids could play in.  Although suburban parents probably won't come downtown JUST for a water feature.  It's something they'd go to in addition to something else (like a free concert in the ampitheater).  And there's the whole issue of people bathing/peeing in it. 

So, we have an opportunity to change the square. Lets say the busses stay. What can be done to encourage people to use the square more? Ampitheater? Dog park? Fountains?

 

Fountains - You mean NEW fountains? There's already a fountain in the northeast quadrant. I like the idea of a "water feature" where kids could play in. Although suburban parents probably won't come downtown JUST for a water feature. It's something they'd go to in addition to something else (like a free concert in the ampitheater). And there's the whole issue of people bathing/peeing in it.

 

I believe the new Perk Park is going to have a water feature.  May be in the 2nd phase though, but it is designed for it.

I've said it before, bury Superior, close ontario, make the traffic go round and round, put two pedestrian ramps under the SW and NE corners of the square going up into a 4 acre park. 

 

 

Done.

I've said it before, bury Superior, close ontario, make the traffic go round and round, put two pedestrian ramps under the SW and NE corners of the square going up into a 4 acre park. 

 

 

Done.

 

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with you.   

 

There is a small problem, IIRC, is superior cannot be buried until West of West 6.

And, as we've discussed above, the Feds might have to be in on that deal because it is a U.S. Route (6) as it runs through PS.

 

Folks, it's been said numerous times- this thread is for redesign/redevelopment of Public Square.  This is not a thread for musings on litter, bad apples, thinly veiled racism, bums, panhandlers, or whatever else.

I've said it before, bury Superior, close ontario, make the traffic go round and round, put two pedestrian ramps under the SW and NE corners of the square going up into a 4 acre park. 

 

 

Done.

 

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with you.   

 

There is a small problem, IIRC, is superior cannot be buried until West of West 6.

 

I like the concept, but is there enough room to have superior go underground at E 6th and come back up at W. 6th?

 

And really - pretty expensive for public square. I agree that we should do it right or not do it at all, but I don't see a proper revamp getting done so long as the economy is bad.

^ I think by "bury" he meant rip out the concrete, put soil on top, and grow grass.

 

I agree with the concept, but somehow think there's way too much red tape for that with Superior being a US federal route.

If Public Square were a "square" roundabout, why couldn't the federal route signs just direct travelers around the square?

^ I think it can operate this way...if more here would understand how a round-a-bout really works...why they're more often much more efficient.  We're so used to having "intersections" hence so much opposition to such an idea by many.

Ive often said, just access to superior and ontario inside the square and route everyone around it.  We have enough East West Avenue that traffic will not be greatly affected.

^ I think by "bury" he meant rip out the concrete, put soil on top, and grow grass.

 

I agree with the concept, but somehow think there's way too much red tape for that with Superior being a US federal route.

 

 

No, I meant tunnel.

I am not understanding most of the ideas presented here regarding the redesign of Public Square.  PS is the center of a major city.  It is supposed to have congestion with cars, buses, and people.  Why the constant attempt to redirect all of this traffic.  Two weeks ago I was at the Farmer's Market on the Northwest Quadrant of PS and there were people milling around, shopping, sitting on park benches, etc.  The food truck was there and it was great.  I walk through PS 2 or 3 times a day and it appears to be clean, safe, and very much what a town square is supposed to be.  Living downtown, my only complaint about PS is that there is not more congestion to give it that "Big City" feel.  The Malls are another issue.  In my opinion, they are set in a more conducive setting for concerts and other outdoor activities as proposed with the Medical Mart/Convention Center designs.

^ Having lived in DC, I can assure you that a traffic circle will feature plenty of that 'big city' traffic feel and actually channel the traffic much more efficiently. I also, however,  question the necessity of a PS redesign given that alternative public spaces exist and are being/should be renovated (mall, lakefront). But if it were to be done, I would go by the traffic circle way, no question.

 

Larger spaces mean more potential public uses of that space. With the roads cut out and assuming the corners cut off for the rounded roads, PS would be larger than many urban centers, such as Jackson Square in NOLA, Pioneer Square in Portland, and Dupont Circle in DC. But honestly, even if the entire area were converted into a park and plaza, it's not going to increase the utility THAT much, the area doesn't offer much potential for multiple uses, at best it's a strolling, sitting, and performance/display area. It would be hugely expensive and disruptive in the short run.

 

 

I would be worried that it would create an urban island. Like it would be hard to get in and out, so there would have to be some sort of underground pedestrian link (simply staircases, ramps and hallways) that would link the large park with pedestrians on the other side.. Much like l'etoile in paris. (where the arch de triomphe is) But otherwise that is exactly what needs to happen. The 4 parks are simply too small to get any feel for green space, and the monsterous streets running through are really not conducive of a good public space.

Would someone please find the drawing that shows below grade access to TT from inside Public Square? I think that most of that work is already done.  The only significan expense would be burrying Superior in a covered trench.  This would also make PS an extension of the Tower City mall. 

While we amaze the world with this piece....  smaller parks as on the banks of the Flats are denied the attention they need.

 

As much as I favor a connected square and a re-route of traffic around it, etc..and all the grandiose visions, I still have the concern about other areas being ignored, or this one becoming a great space that is still smeared with stains of existing issues I had mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

So, again, until we get the "smaller stuff" right first...such as  perhaps even a resurfaced E.9th Street with new and/or spruced up planters and a better pedestrian feel...better maintained Flats parks and lighting.. Correction of some of the current square issues I mentioned in earlier posts...  I would take all that simple routine stuff FIRST..... before touching the square or mall with any major overhauls... as they'll do for now eventhough they're not perfect. (Add an event or two, clean it up...a bit more security, and that would make an instant improvement.)

 

Then, when we get that right, let's graduate to what I do actually support (a grand square makover), but "not until." I don't want to place the cart before the horse and all too often we have these grandiose plans but ignore the smaller things that add up to be a lot...so one place looks great while other things continue to fall apart. And yes, I know about investments like this being a stimulus for other good things, but that is really speculative.

EC, nothing can be done with Public Square in it's crrent (and since the 80's) incarnation.  It is too chopped up.  Too much traffic to cross.  Too many busses laying over.  It just too intimidating to pedestrians and has to get fixed.  I urge you to look at some of the pastoral pictures from the 1920's before the TT went up.  It was like a Victorian wonderland.

I urge you to look at some of the pastoral pictures from the 1920's before the TT went up. It was like a Victorian wonderland.

 

And then came cars and buses...

 

I'd love to see a unified square, but as long as it's a major RTA hub, it's not worth it.  A square roundabout would be great if traffic was continually flowing around it.  But we have buses, including the HealthLine, constantly stopping around the Square, making a barrier around it. 

 

Unless RTA is moving, the amount of money that should be put into Public Square should be minimal.  Focus on other areas that really have potential.

Honestly, I dont' think leaving the health line there is a bad thing.  I think that would be a plus, moving the other lines off of lower Euclid and onto Prospect and Huron would be a plus

Id rather have people waiting for busses crowding public square than to have a large mass of people waiting in front of businesses on the surrounding streets

For all we talk about lack of 'foot traffic'.... it seems odd that we are now advocating for the diminishment of it.

Thats not foot traffic. Thats more of just waiting/possible crowding around the bus stops. If people find it unpleasant to visit the square, imagine if it was on the streets that heavily. If a ton of "unpleasant" people are waiting for busses outside of a business, people might stay away from that business. Id rather have people avoid a park than commercial streets. I would prefer the square to remain a transit hub and rather we focus our efforts to turning the malls into something special.

^We should re name this thread "let's stereotype bus riders and public transit users as "unpleasant"".  It seems to be a theme in this thread.

Perhaps we should just stay on topic?

^We should re name this thread "let's stereotype bus riders and public transit users as "unpleasant"". It seems to be a theme in this thread.

 

Thats not my opinion. I have seen them be called that several times especially on this thread. I use public transportation several times a day and interact with the others who also do. I have no problem with the average person who takes the busses and trains. I just wanted to make that clear.