I have an idea/question that might immediately get shot down with $$$ issues, but back in the 90s my high school put in nice new brick sidewalks with had electrified heating units in them which helped melt the ice/snow.  Has anyone ever heard a consideration for using these on specific and limited sections of the sidewalk/plaza areas?  Might be cost prohibitive, I don't know, but considering our winters, it might be worthwhile to have "routes" heated.  Perhaps the energy could come from solar panels on top of the kiosks?

 

I noticed one time that snow melted from sidewalks over steam tunnels before it melted on other sidewalks. I don't know if public square has any steam or heated utilities, but if it does, some of the lost heat could be put to good use.

 

It is unlikely that heated sidewalks could be economically powered by solar photovoltaics. A more likely possibility is that water heated by a solar collector could be pumped under the sidewalks, or made to flow by convection.

 

Even better yet, some materials absorb more heat than others. Red sandstone is one of the most heat absorbant materials, and red brick is pretty high on the list. This is another good reason to use red brick instead of concrete for walks.

Update (as I work on better models).  Also, I agree, a set of Design Principles is the most effective way to express the core desires of this plan.  However, to compete in the minds of persons higher up in public service, a visual can be very effective.

 

 

I still think, for the sake of holding down costs (for both construction and maintenance), asking for the pavers to go around (not just through) the square might be overreaching a bit.

Hts121 - Would you be in favor of having the Crosswalks that jut out from the Square paved? 

 

Also, for Superior, would you have asphalt run all the way up to the square itself, or have the intersections and crosswalks paved in stone?

 

I know you agree with infinite money the pavers all around would be better -- but compared to the "Thread it" this thing has got to cost less than half, easily.

I agree... but I also always thought the thread it concept was a pipe dream for that same reason.

 

IMO, the more pavers the better and I'm not in the construction field so my point on costs is just speculation (although I know brick can be tremendously expensive).  I wouldn't make any changes on my account.  Go with the consensus.  I was just dropping in my two cents.

A note on paving stones to those who had asked about the weight capacity for these stones:

 

 

 

 

Burnham-2011

 

Thought you might enjoy this article re: street paving. I think it is pretty amazing and would love to see this used in The United States. Primarily on Public Square.

 

http://www.gizmag.com/tiger-stone-lays-paving-bricks/16951/

 

The brick-road-laying Tiger Stone

 

 

Heres a little idea of the scale of the wide open paved space in our proposal for downtown Cleveland. Think about the strong winds, and lack of pedestrian activity there, and its going to be one unfriendly tundra of pavers.

 

Just to compare, yes that is the titanic, a football field, and at the left, the entirety of Rockefeller Center. I think we can break that up just a tad :)

 

With what? More trees, evergreens, grasses, statues, etc. Public Square just does not have the kind of pedestrian density to make that large of an open space comfortable.. not a lot of cities do!

 

 

 

 

Here is an example from vienna, where open space is broken up by small statues, and outdoor restaurant seating areas

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=vienna+girardi&oe=utf-8&hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=girardi&hnear=Vienna,+Austria&ll=48.208524,16.370965&spn=0.002109,0.004163&t=k&z=18

Scav, awesome comparisons.

 

Yep, get me some fir trees to break up the wind year round. And they will look beautiful decorated and lit during the holidays!!

Scav - appreciate the size comparisons, its a huge space for sure.

 

I think in the Portland's Courthouse Plaza shows how steps leading down a bit in a larger open space remain open so as to not invite hard to see (less safe) areas. (read: Perk Park).

 

For the record my diagrams leave the north half mostly open because I don't want to offer a firm design, but rather a canvas.  Ice skating, fountains, outdoor stages, areas for newstands, seatings, urban furniture etc. should be fluid, inviting, and seasonally appropriate.  And yes, KJP, some fir trees.

 

 

 

KJP you seem like you might have an idea about this... 

 

Would leaving Ontario open in the Southern half of the square (forming a T with Superior) make the traffic pattern changes more palatable to RTA?  Especially if it was ONLY open to Buses?

 

Someone wrote many years ago that Public Square is an ensemble of squares, and I liked the sound of that.  I think that pavers can make Superior more pedestrian friendly, and a redesign of the SW quadrant to make better use of the Casino and it's position as a "front porch" to The Terminal Tower is a good idea, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of joining the Northern 2 quadrants, and leaving the 2 southern quads as they are - one museum/monument and one plaza/greenspace.

 

New pics of the Northern half ideas soon to come. 

^For that matter, if Ontario absolutely has to stay open through the square for RTA, could the whole thing become "buses only"?

 

I'm not sure how I feel about a T, I'll have to think about that one.

I'm not sure how I feel about a T either. But if you're asking me how RTA might feel about it, I suspect they might be more willing to support it. Just guessing, though.

Thanks -- you have great insights into Transportation policy, so I figured you might have some insight.

 

As for the "T" idea I understand the need for more consideration.  After starring at PS for the last few weeks (and looking at dozens of public spaces around the world) I've decided that what we need is a single space that can be programmed for multiple uses: farmer's market, yoga classes, summer show series, music performances, political rallies, and so on.  The SE quad is clearly going to be the monument, the SW quad can be designed many ways, but even with the additional space (with a closed Ontario) it would end up being somewhat redundant to the Northern Quads.  I think designing the SW quad to have some green space, gardens, urban furniture, perhaps a water feature and/or ice skating rink would make it a wonderful complement to the overall space.

 

Then the northern quads (joined) could be deliberately designed to host many uses, pedestrian traffic, and retail of sorts.  Ontario doesn't need to be closed on the southern half to make this work.  Just a thought.

Make ontario less lanes though

I saw this article today on Cleveland.com

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/09/downtown_plan_needs_a_private.html

 

 

Downtown plan needs a private boost

 

Nearly $1 billion in construction is in the works on the north and south ends of the square (a convention center and medical mart to the north, a casino to the south). But they won't meet their potential unless downtown's public spaces are made safer, more attractive and more user-friendly.

 

Members of the new 15-member Group Plan Commission are getting close to a final plan.

 

 

Apologies to the mods as this is not development news, but a bit of humor and some perspective to follow up the long debate that started in April over what Public Square could become.

 

 

First a disclaimer, I am not promoting this as an actual development, it would be extremely expensive, is about 17 years too late, and would completely change the concept of Public Square.  That said, I was looking at the size of the square the other day and noticed that one could fit a baseball diamond (MLB size) in the square and then some.  I then thought of Camden Yards, Fenway, and lastly the ultra-urban League Park of Cleveland.  It got me thinking about an alternative reality where traffic was diverted around the square (like the Philadelphia City Hall) and the Jacobs family decided to build their tower and stadium at public square.

 

Imagine (and you might need a Burning River Ale first) the park buil about 1.5 stories above street level with the lower level offering restaurants, retail, team shops locker and practice areas etc.  The stadium would be build above with limited seating (I used fairly accurate techniques to superimpose the stadium's lower levels and mezzanine and believe, with some superb engineering that it could be done).  This would provide roughly 27,000 seats.  I then thought the Huntington Bank building offered a unique opportunity for "upper deck" seating.  Granted, the Indians would need to buy the office space behind these seats because the lack of windows would make them very difficult to sell.  One or two floors could become dedicated to concessions and people would enter the Huntington Building, take the elevator to a floor with access to the "bleachers".  The Jumbo-tron would be built on a green monster" like wall, with minimal seating. 

 

 

Beyond this I would envision the architecture would pay homage to the central location by allowing views from Euclid into the park (not in picture) as well as showcasing the Terminal Tower behind homeplate.

 

Lastly, I would point out that the "Jacobs tower" in this picture is not how I would imagine it.  Rather, they could built a tower that bridges over the West Roadway of Public Square, and contains suites, seating, a restaurant like the Terrace Club, and of course commercial space for the Cleveland Indians administrative offices.  The rest could be leased for more profits.

 

As for the "other 6 months" of the year... It would be open to the public during the day, and could be used for Snow Days and as many other events as could be imagined.  A temporary dome over the field, like they use at Wimbledon, could even make it a green park in the middle of our white winters!

 

Try not to be too critical, this is mostly to get people smiling and thinking about the physical environment of Public Square.  But I've got to say this... If it could have been done, could you imagine the national attention during the 1995 World Series?!  Positively electric!

If only a football field would fit...  :-P

Of all the 'what if' scenarios posted on here, this one is my favorite. The only thing missing are the pedestrian tubes connecting all the buildings to each other.....

this thought has crossed my mind a few times. I like the idea of sinking the actual field and seating into the ground rather than building up.. and then building a retractable roof/park on top with permanent pedestrian bridges.

Nice work.  :-)

Sink it down into the ground like was said, then build a subterranean "Tubular Rail" system with the tube towers positioned in the outfield and have the trains active during ball games.

A stadium would be better than the giant RTA stop that public square is today. If they could build an underground bus terminal or buy that parking lot from Jacobs and build an above ground, indoor bus terminal, that would free up public square for whichever design they choose to take on.

or.... they could have just taken one of the best sited stadiums built in sports, and surrounded it with housing to create an environment just like wrigleyville in Cleveland, at a time when people were throwing money at housing projects like drunken sailors... and instead lou frangos just bought all the buildings surrounding the ballpark demolished them and turned it into a giant parking lot. ;) Neat.

Too true, McCleveland...

 

I figured if they built it on Public Square you'd have a fighting chance for the nearby (already existing) infrastructure to fill up with units and businesses.  Then again knowing our city's infatuation with surface lots I wouldn't bet against them demolishing the Terminal Tower for parking.    :drunk:

Discussion of the Public Square skyscraper is here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14285.0.html

GOOD MORNING!

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/10/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson.html

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson envisions unified Public Square as symbol of greener city

Published: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 6:00 PM    Updated: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 7:26 PM

  By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

Most people would look at Public Square in downtown Cleveland and see a once-grand civic space with the shabby air of a neglected heirloom.

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson sees an opportunity to redefine public space in the city with a single, bold stroke. He wants to close Superior Avenue and Ontario Street where they cross the 10-acre space to make it a big central park in the heart of the city.

 

 

And my fave, From the Mayor himself:

"I always thought they should not allow cars in a downtown."

I like it.

That was a really encouraging read.  Awesome to hear that the Mayor has strong feelings on this issue!

This article (and Mayor Jackson's words) makes it seem that a unified Public Square is more of a possibility now.  I used to be  100% in support of one square instead of four or even two.  But lately I have become concerned about where they'd put the bus stops if this were to happen.

 

If you take all the current routes and stops and put them around the perimeter of the Square, my fear is that it would start to feel like a wall of stations and people waiting for the bus.  Would people at street level feel less likely to penetrate that wall and enter the Square?  Would people just walk around the outside and leave the center of Public Square feeling even more vacant than the individual quadrants do now?

 

If so, is there a better location for these bus depots?  Along Huron Road by Tower City?  At the north end of the mall as part of the often discussed transportation center? 

Having the bus stations by tower city is almost necessary so that there's a good, easy link between rail and bus. Then again, I don't know how many passengers transfer between them - maybe it's not that many, and we could have more cross-town buses that don't stop downtown.

^If that is true I have two words for you...Prospect Avenue (or maybe four words Huron Road).

Prospect may be the best place for the rail-bus interface. It is directly above the rail station with two sets of escalators between the street and the station. The routes of buses is a question though, unless the streets between Huron and Prospect are used to turn buses.

 

If we get into detail on bus services and routings, perhaps that is discussion best left to this thread:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4504.0.html

If you want to close both roads... All you really need is a bus turn around loop.  It wouldn't have to be as big or dumb as having both Ontario and Superior open... it wouldn't be open to any other traffic... it wouldn't have to circumnavigate an entire plaza just to make a U-turn, people can walk the extra 400 feet, especially if there is a nice plaza with a coffee shop or whatever instead of rivers of asphalt to hinder them.  You can also connect the proposed bus loop with a nice bus transit station (possibly even connected to Tower City), so that people waiting for the bus don't have to be out in the rain, or on all corners of the street or what-have-you.  Leaves the rest of the Square open to complete prettiness.

 

Or:

 

Build a bus terminal on the giant parking lot next to 55 Public Square... literally quite large, and dignified, and prettiful and such.  Have the bus entrance/exit off of W. 3rd. and make the Superior and W. 6th facing side retail.  On top of that place a 5 story parking garage.  On top of that place GCRTA HQ and about 20 stories of office space/mixed used/condos/whatever floats your boat.  Call it: The Awesome Building, and free up the entire square.  Ready go!

Just a quick history lesson -- since the end of the Civil War the square has been 4 quadrants, a feature mostly promoted by mass transit (street cars and then buses) agencies and local businesses.  I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other - but thought this was interesting:  http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=FWOPS

^If that is true I have two words for you...Prospect Avenue (or maybe four words Huron Road).

 

both west prospect and west Huron are actually Bridges over Tower City. RTA has stationed Buses on prospect before, the issue that happens is the buses damage the pavement and can help create leaks in tower city. 

 

The damage to the pavement was quite significant back in the late 90s when buses were back there.

 

I see the long term solution may be to place a Transit center between the Warehouse and public square, as was proposed a few months back.

 

It would be interesting to if we could replace the garages beneath towercity,north of the transit lines, with a direct at/near grade connection to Red/green/blue line platforms.

 

 

 

both west prospect and west Huron are actually Bridges over Tower City. RTA has stationed Buses on prospect before, the issue that happens is the buses damage the pavement and can help create leaks in tower city. 

 

The damage to the pavement was quite significant back in the late 90s when buses were back there.

 

I see the long term solution may be to place a Transit center between the Warehouse and public square, as was proposed a few months back.

 

It would be interesting to if we could replace the garages beneath towercity,north of the transit lines, with a direct at/near grade connection to Red/green/blue line platforms.

 

 

Totally forgot about that. Actually, they damaged the seams between the bridge sections. Trucks were doing the same thing on the Huron bridge over Tower City.

 

I still think Prospect is a good location, so perhaps the bridge can be retrofitted to absorb the shocks of heavier buses.

 

I would be surprised if Jacobs would want to sell the Public Square parking lot to RTA, and I doubt RTA has $12,784,500 (the county's appraised value) to buy it from Jacobs.

^If that is true I have two words for you...Prospect Avenue (or maybe four words Huron Road).

 

both west prospect and west Huron are actually Bridges over Tower City. RTA has stationed Buses on prospect before, the issue that happens is the buses damage the pavement and can help create leaks in tower city. 

 

The damage to the pavement was quite significant back in the late 90s when buses were back there.

 

I see the long term solution may be to place a Transit center between the Warehouse and public square, as was proposed a few months back.

 

It would be interesting to if we could replace the garages beneath towercity,north of the transit lines, with a direct at/near grade connection to Red/green/blue line platforms.

 

 

 

 

IIRC, prospect wasn't the issue.  the issue is there are no bus pads on Prospect.  However the support for Union Terminal/Tower City are there.

 

The reason for the damage, on Huron?  Phase two was never built which would have reinforced the Huron skeletal support structure.

 

Buses don't need to be moved east or west, just prospect and Huron need upgrades/reinforcement.

Here is some information that was distributed at an RTA board meeting a few months ago.  It shows the current number of bus movements/stops at different locations around public square.

 

 

I think this has been discussed before and probably isn't possible given budget contraints, but my preference would be to construct a transit station below public square with an underground walkway to Tower City. 

 

 

I'm glad to hear continued talks about changes to Public Square.  With the Euclid Corridor, E.4th Street and the new Tri-C Hospitality Management Center completed and the Casino now under construction in the Higbee Building that area is gonna be completely different than it was 5-10 years ago.  Hopefully the changes to Public Square will tie that part of downtown together.

We've discussed on this board (quite a bit) the possibilities for PS's redesign.  I like closing the cross streets, closing just one, or making a new environment through the use of pavers -- but I think there is one important element that seems to be missed here.

 

Connectivity.  Let's face it, the Mall and Public Square are adjacent public spaces that can either prove redundant or complimentary - and it's completely up to the design and layout.  If we treat them as individual spaces we'll end up wasting them.  Especially if you look at the Field Ops proposal that seemed to have the most backing (#2).  It had the entire northern half of the square made into a lawn.  Why would we need a 400' x 150' "Great Lawn" next to a 650' x 250' open grassy mall?

 

Either Public square needs to be redesigned to include built items, statues, fountains, urban furniture, and further ideas, or we need to make the mall and PS more properly connected.

 

So I drew up this simple map to show what I support.  First, greening the two garages (just the surface level) on the bluff, and connected all the Lake facing parks to the mall -- and then connecting the mall and PS not through a quasi-pedestrian road (semi-blocking rockwell off to traffic) but by greening the space and having the mall flow into Public Square.  However it is done, the connection/link between the Mall and PS has got to be thoroughly considered and designed to make the connection beautiful, obvious, and natural. 

 

 

In short, I think the ability to walk from the exit at Terminal Tower through PS onto the Mall and out to the bluff (eventually to the water through a pedestrian bridge) should be the macro-goal of any planning here.

 

Closing those roads and making PS a big open space is, at best, a piece of a larger plan of connecting Cleveland's amenities through public space.  Once the main public spaces are connected we must focus on ways to surround them not with  City Beautiful - Burnham buildings... but shops, restaurants, commercial space, and economic centers.

 

 

We've talked a bit about making the streets more pedestrian oriented if they can't be closed, and I thought this was a good example of what I was thinking.

 

http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/new-idea-for-sharing-urban-roads-sidewalks.html

 

New Idea For Sharing Urban Roads? Sidewalks Removed on Busy London Street Forces Drivers to Slow

It's a revolutionary change in traffic thinking. Sidewalks have been eliminated on a newly reconstructed stretch of Exhibition Road, in downtown London. The busy thoroughfare has been changed from the traditional sidewalk-and-road arrangement into a continuous smooth surface that is shared by pedestrians, bikers and drivers.

^ Interesting - too bad big brother at work prevents me from reading more about it.

^ Interesting - too bad big brother at work prevents me from reading more about it.

I have the same problem with most of the links that people post on here too, and once in a while they block this site too. They seem to have a revolving block going. Weird.

 

Anyway, to summarize, a ped friendly street had the curbs removed, stone put down. Basically what we discussed a few months ago. I just thought it was interesting to see an example of a street that actually had it done.

Im not sure if this has been suggested, or if its doable, but it could be very beneficial. If we could actually close Superior and Ontario, I think we should look into creating an underground parking garage, under the 3 quadrants and roadway. You would have steps up to various locations on the square, like Mall A, in addition to access to tower city and the casino. It could help get rid of several parking lots around the square, by decreasing the demand. And maybe you can get Dan Gilbert to help pay the bill because of the added parking for the casino.

I am fairly certain that closing only one of those roads would be difficult enough (especially Superior).  Closing both is probably 'off the table' at this point.

Even if the closing of both roads can be done, the garage could still work. Temporary closures will happen, but overall I think it could be a good plan. Provide parking which could save buildings from being demolished for parking, and make those lots less profitable. And it would be one way to get people on the square in the first place. There would be a good flow of people entering and exiting the square to get to and from the garage.

Man, why do I feel the Warehouse District Project is more likely to happen than anything being redone to Public Square.