^ Exactly. The square should be place to enjoy, not a crowded bus stop. And I feel like we play this whole "what do you mean??? (insinuating racism)" game atleast one a day on here.

 

Not to take this off topic, but I feel as I must respond. 

 

As a person of color, that is how I take it.  We all receive things in a different manner and many times people write things in a manner which is stereotypical and insulting.  They generalize about people with for, what I believe, is no reason.

 

If you want you can feel free to PM.

I don't mind the bus stops, I haven't fully looked at the plans, but based on what they are saying they want to do, the stops on Superior will have to be relocated.  There are very few people that work ON the square itself, so I can see bus tops moved to streets just before buses enter the square.

Thats why I posted the image above, as it shows the bus stops on superior, I feel like they can be moved to superior and e.roadway which is right across from the square without touching it, and the same goes for the stop right by the old stone church.

You won't find any disagreement with the notion that people should not be causing disturbances in public places.  But the concept of 'loitering' on a public square is just a bad way to describe it IMHO.  I wasn't directly implying racism, although like you said, there is a 'reality' which can't be ignored, when we are talking about the bus stops and the complaints associated with them.  I was simply mentioning that loitering is kind of what the square is for.  If I want to just sit there on one of the quadrants for no apparent purpose, well..... there's nothing wrong with that.  That's my right and it is held by every resident, no matter how scary they look to some people.  Again, actively causing a disturbance (not just behaving in a way that might be perceived as a disturbance by some) is another story.

^ Exactly. The square should be place to enjoy, not a crowded bus stop. And I feel like we play this whole "what do you mean??? (insinuating racism)" game atleast one a day on here.

 

Not to take this off topic, but I feel as I must respond. 

 

As a person of color, that is how I take it.  We all receive things in a different manner and many times people write things in a manner which is stereotypical and insulting.  They generalize about people with for, what I believe, is no reason.

 

If you want you can feel free to PM.

I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

 

EDIT: Fixed

^That's what he said...

You won't find any disagreement with the notion that people should not be causing disturbances in public places.  But the concept of 'loitering' on a public square is just a bad way to describe it IMHO.  I wasn't directly implying racism, although like you said, there is a 'reality' which can't be ignored, when we are talking about the bus stops and the complaints associated with them.  I was simply mentioning that loitering is kind of what the square is for.  If I want to just sit there on one of the quadrants for no apparent purpose, well..... there's nothing wrong with that.

The way I see loitering and have always understood it was in a bad way. Obviously a better choice of words could have been used as a big case of miscommunication ensued. I never was a fan of bus stops on the square was a good idea in the first place and don't like them now. That is why I offered suggestions to have them relocated to a area close to the square but not on it directly. So if you wanted to enjoy the square you can easily walk there, but having bus stops on the square is just a bad idea. Anyone has the right to be on the square, as long as you are there to enjoy it and not be there to cause commotion, dirty it up, or make patrons uncomfortable with cat calls etc. Also I wasn't saying you were implying racism.

^That's what he said...

Lol this is why I felt a better choice over words should have been used....again

^That's what he said...

Lol this is why I felt a better choice over words should have been used....again

 

Two letter ("in") make all the difference my friend ;)

^That's what he said...

Lol this is why I felt a better choice over words should have been used....again

 

Two letter ("in") make all the difference my friend ;)

This is true haha, which is why it is fixed now. :D

The southwest quadrant is a perfect example of how clustering bus stops usually ends up creating a negative public space. It creates a crowd that often gets loud and disrespectful to its surroundings. You don't have these issues or anything like this happening at any of the other bus stops throughout the city (which are usually quite calm). There are several other areas in downtown that have several bus stops but without the issues, like West Prospect where stops are slightly spread out so crowds remain limited/divided.

What issues? I love the SW quadrant of Public Square. It has the most active, noisy, organized chaos and big-city setting downtown. Wish we had more like it.

What issues? I love the SW quadrant of Public Square. It has the most active, noisy, organized chaos and big-city setting downtown. Wish we had more like it.

 

AMEN.  I'm hating these designs for that reason.  If I want an Auntie Annes and a splash fountain, I'll drive to Crocker Park.  I want diversity, movement, noise and energy.  Greenspace is for parks.  This is our center of commerce and transportation.

What issues? I love the SW quadrant of Public Square. It has the most active, noisy, organized chaos and big-city setting downtown. Wish we had more like it.

 

AMEN.  I'm hating these designs for that reason.  If I want an Auntie Annes and a splash fountain, I'll drive to Crocker Park.  I want diversity, movement, noise and energy.  Greenspace is for parks.  This is our center of commerce and transportation.

 

KJP said something to me yesterday about age.    I'm going out on a limb here, but I am a man of a certain age and grew shopping downtown at Halle's (our first choice), Higbee's (our second choice) or May Co. (very seldom), I took the train downtown and worked downtown in 1980s/90s.

 

Many of the people on the forum are young, probably in their early 20s, and have only shopped and experienced the "suburban thing" and never experienced the old Cleveland.  So when they think of Public places or their vision for the city it may have a suburb slant or (no offense) sterile feeling. 

 

Example I prefer Shaker Square to Crocker, but many feel CP is urbane.

i think a lot of people on this forum are a lot more well-traveled than you give them credit for. I have been to many of the major cities in America, Europe and SE Asia and I tell you with absolute certainty that there's nothing "big city" about the SW quadrant of Public Square. It's just a mess. And it's an embarrassing mess for Cleveland. Hence the new design. Though the idea of mixing bus stops into the middle of a public park is a dreadful idea. I don't blame James Corner for this. This is all on the RTA. Why the tail insists on wagging the dog is beyond me.

 

 

I think we should just accept the presence of bus stops at this point and move on. After years of discussion, I doubt anyone has anything new to offer on the topic.  I just hope the rest of the park is designed to minimize pedestrian congestion near the stops and to allow people so inclined to transverse the square without walking through bus waiting areas.

 

As for the SW quadrant, I think it's pretty bland late 1970s corporate plaza-y, with its generic mall fountain, ugly multi-colored brick, and sequestered seating areas. It's got an urban hardscape vibe and the water noise gives it a literal buzz, so I guess I get what its defenders are saying, but I won't really miss it.

As for the SW quadrant, I think it's pretty bland late 1970s corporate plaza-y, with its generic mall fountain, ugly multi-colored brick, and sequestered seating areas. It's got an urban hardscape vibe and the water noise gives it a literal buzz, so I guess I get what its defenders are saying, but I won't really miss it.

 

I wasn't even referencing the landscape/plaza design. I can find something to like in any design of a plaza, no matter how bad, as long as there's lots of people around. Instead, I love the buzz from all the people and activity they bring to the SW quadrant. And the main reason why it exists here vs other quadrants is because of the transit connectivity that's been here for 155 years....

 

 

 

i think a lot of people on this forum are a lot more well-traveled than you give them credit for. I have been to many of the major cities in America, Europe and SE Asia and I tell you with absolute certainty that there's nothing "big city" about the SW quadrant of Public Square. It's just a mess. And it's an embarrassing mess for Cleveland. Hence the new design. Though the idea of mixing bus stops into the middle of a public park is a dreadful idea. I don't blame James Corner for this. This is all on the RTA. Why the tail insists on wagging the dog is beyond me.

 

 

 

PaulI[/member]  Is this for me?  I dont make assumptions. 

 

I personally think we should honor history, as Public Square has always been a transit hub, yet maximize it in the way the square is used by people today and in the near future.  I think the entire square should be closed but, if due to federal/state issues, we cannot, moving/adjusting the location of bus stops is necessary. 

 

If it's going to be a park and meeting place to enjoy, you cannot very well do so with a large number of buses starting & stopping.  There is going to have to be balance and compromise.

 

Thanks MTS. I really don't think that in order to honor history that we need six bus stops cutting through PS. Also, I have yet to hear anyone state that closing the entire four quadrants was not allowable by any federal or state mandate. Though it would be nice to get the final verdict on that particular subject.

Bryant Park is a transit hub far far beyond the capacity of Public Square.  Does it work there because it's a subway?

Bryant Park is a transit hub far far beyond the capacity of Public Square.  Does it work there because it's a subway?

 

 

Bryant Park and Public Square are two different beast.  They cannot be used as a comparison.

 

Bryant Park is not a transit hub but it does have two connected subway stations.

^^Perhaps.  But I also think NYC'ers, for better or worse, are generally a lot more desensitized and tone-deaf to the kind of stuff/people which intimidates a lot of the folks who try to avoid PS at all costs.

^^Perhaps.  But I also think NYC'ers, for better or worse, are generally a lot more desensitized and tone-deaf to the kind of stuff/people which intimidates a lot of the folks who try to avoid PS at all costs.

 

Hts121[/member] I would agree.  When I first moved to Brooklyn Hts. I could hear every thing from the BQE and I was blocks away.  But I'm a super light sleeper.  The Shaker Rapid whistle wakes me up.

 

NYC is a place where people walk the majority of the time and see all types of people of various races, ages, sexuality, religions, etc.  They take the "noise" with a grain of salt.  I think Boston, Philly, Chicago, and San Fran are very similar.  It's apart of the urbane lifestyle that people are accustomed and drawn to.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree on this. I know NY really well and have enjoyed walking throughout the city. It has an incredible urban vibe and is one of my favorite places on the planet. The vibe at PS is completely different.  This isn't a case of suburban Clevelanders not "getting" what a real city feels like. This is a case of people not liking a nasty, dirty, down-on-its-luck area of Cleveland.

Cleveland is an amazing place. But in no way does PS represent big city living, and in no way does it define what we want to be as a city. And, thank goodness, this is why it's being redesigned.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree on this. I know NY really well and have enjoyed walking throughout the city. It has an incredible urban vibe and is one of my favorite places on the planet. The vibe at PS is completely different.  This isn't a case of suburban Clevelanders not "getting" what a real city feels like. This is a case of people not liking a nasty, dirty, down-on-its-luck area of Cleveland.

Cleveland is an amazing place. But in no way does PS represent big city living, and in no way does it define what we want to be as a city. And, thank goodness, this is why it's being redesigned.

 

PaulI[/member]  Not one person here is comparing Cleveland to NYC in any form.  Nor are they saying PS represent Big City living.  As I post this from NYC.

Actually - that's exactly what someone said......

 

"What issues? I love the SW quadrant of Public Square. It has the most active, noisy, organized chaos and big-city setting downtown. Wish we had more like it."

 

 

^^Perhaps.  But I also think NYC'ers, for better or worse, are generally a lot more desensitized and tone-deaf to the kind of stuff/people which intimidates a lot of the folks who try to avoid PS at all costs.

 

Hts121[/member] I would agree.  When I first moved to Brooklyn Hts. I could hear every thing from the BQE and I was blocks away.  But I'm a super light sleeper.  The Shaker Rapid whistle wakes me up.

 

NYC is a place where people walk the majority of the time and see all types of people of various races, ages, sexuality, religions, etc.  They take the "noise" with a grain of salt.  I think Boston, Philly, Chicago, and San Fran are very similar.  It's apart of the urbane lifestyle that people are accustomed and drawn to.

 

Is much the criticism regarding the bus stops due to hypersensitivity and stereotyping?  Definitely.

 

That said, the bad behavior, cat-calling, fighting, screaming, and general rowdiness on the PS does exist and has been discussed here at length.  As someone who walks through/by/sits on PS daily, I have been witness to lots of behavior that would repel plenty of people who can choose where to spend their time - and it most certainly does.  To be clear, PS is not a lawless catastrophe or complete disaster as some may make it sound but it does have its very real challenges.

 

The "Clevelanders are hicks" dismissal or constant allegations of racism (whether insinuated or outright) every time someone criticizes PS is ridiculous.  PS is not a total train-wreck but it doesn't do anyone any favors to ignore justified criticism.

Actually - that's exactly what someone said......

 

"What issues? I love the SW quadrant of Public Square. It has the most active, noisy, organized chaos and big-city setting downtown. Wish we had more like it."

 

 

PaulI[/member]  In my opinion PS is in a big city setting as Cleveland itself is a Big City.  However, that is not a direct comparison to NYC.  It's solely a comparison to big cities period, nothing more.

 

^^Perhaps.  But I also think NYC'ers, for better or worse, are generally a lot more desensitized and tone-deaf to the kind of stuff/people which intimidates a lot of the folks who try to avoid PS at all costs.

 

Hts121[/member] I would agree.  When I first moved to Brooklyn Hts. I could hear every thing from the BQE and I was blocks away.  But I'm a super light sleeper.  The Shaker Rapid whistle wakes me up.

 

NYC is a place where people walk the majority of the time and see all types of people of various races, ages, sexuality, religions, etc.  They take the "noise" with a grain of salt.  I think Boston, Philly, Chicago, and San Fran are very similar.  It's apart of the urbane lifestyle that people are accustomed and drawn to.

 

Is much the criticism regarding the bus stops due to hypersensitivity and stereotyping?  Definitely.

 

That said, the bad behavior, cat-calling, fighting, screaming, and general rowdiness on the PS does exist and has been discussed here at length.  As someone who walks through/by/sits on PS daily, I have been witness to lots of behavior that would repel plenty of people who can choose where to spend their time - and it most certainly does.  To be clear, PS is not a lawless catastrophe or complete disaster as some may make it sound but it does have its very real challenges.

 

The "Clevelanders are hicks" dismissal or constant allegations of racism (whether insinuated or outright) every time someone criticizes PS is ridiculous.  PS is not a total train-wreck but it doesn't do anyone any favors to ignore justified criticism.

SixthCity[/member]  Not sure what part of my post led to your response are you agreeing or adding on?  I no longer word downtown, but worked at the SOHIO HQ for years, so I cannot say what PS is like today.  But I do think the "stereotyping" is blown out of proportion.  The cat-calling and rowdiness shouldn't be there, but IMO, that is a direct issue with the way superior is divided and each quadrant is it's own island.

 

I have never refereed to Clevelanders as "hicks", not even tedders55[/member] or other Westsiders  :P ;) , because I KNOW we have a lot of cosmopolitan and "cultured" people from families with a lot of money!

I believe envirement plays a huge part in peoples behavior. Those who present themselves in a certain way in one place will act completely different In other areas. Ever see people out of control at the art museum?  Would the same individuals create a disturbance in a nice restaurant? I think EdgewaterPark is a perfect example. Even though the improvements there are just in the beginning stages, 5 years ago you wouldn't feel comfortable there and you would encounter the same types of things you see at PS today. The change in behavior has been dramatic with work still to be done. When the Flats was in it's best days there was order and civility. As it degraded and the atmosphere changed, peoples behavior did also.  PS has certainly degraded to a point where it can affect peoples behavior.  I believe with the makeover of PS along with the addition of new residents around it and the hopeful new construction on the Jacobs lot, things will change for the better.

I believe envirement plays a huge part in peoples behavior. Those who present themselves in a certain way in one place will act completely different In other areas. Ever see people out of control at the art museum?  Would the same individuals create a disturbance in a nice restaurant? I think EdgewaterPark is a perfect example. Even though the improvements there are just in the beginning stages, 5 years ago you wouldn't feel comfortable there and you would encounter the same types of things you see at PS today. The change in behavior has been dramatic with work still to be done. When the Flats was in it's best days there was order and civility. As it degraded and the atmosphere changed, peoples behavior did also.  PS has certainly degraded to a point where it can affect peoples behavior.  I believe with the makeover of PS along with the addition of new residents around it and the hopeful new construction on the Jacobs lot, things will change for the better.

 

I'm going to disagree on the Flats portion.  It's always been a mess, kids throwing trash, car accidents, people having sex in cars or behind cars in parking lots, kids barfing left and right, people jumping in the water.

 

I do agree, once PS is made over it will connect East 4th with TC via Euclid and CC/MM Via Ontario. 

 

Lets hope the PS rehab has the same affect Perk Parks has had.  People love the park, more apartments are coming on line and when the Le Meridien comes online, it's guests will use it as a quiet spot.

I just googled "Cleveland Public Square cat-calling" and the top hit is UrbanOhio

 

I believe envirement plays a huge part in peoples behavior. Those who present themselves in a certain way in one place will act completely different In other areas. Ever see people out of control at the art museum?  Would the same individuals create a disturbance in a nice restaurant? I think EdgewaterPark is a perfect example. Even though the improvements there are just in the beginning stages, 5 years ago you wouldn't feel comfortable there and you would encounter the same types of things you see at PS today. The change in behavior has been dramatic with work still to be done. When the Flats was in it's best days there was order and civility. As it degraded and the atmosphere changed, peoples behavior did also.  PS has certainly degraded to a point where it can affect peoples behavior.  I believe with the makeover of PS along with the addition of new residents around it and the hopeful new construction on the Jacobs lot, things will change for the better.

I'm going to disagree on the Flats portion.  It's always been a mess, kids throwing trash, car accidents, people having sex in cars or behind cars in parking lots, kids barfing left and right, people jumping in the water.

 

I do agree, once PS is made over it will connect East 4th with TC via Euclid and CC/MM Via Ontario. 

 

Lets hope the PS rehab has the same affect Perk Parks has had.  People love the park, more apartments are coming on line and when the Le Meridien comes online, it's guests will use it as a quiet spot.

 

Well the majority of that was alcohol driven.

I believe envirement plays a huge part in peoples behavior. Those who present themselves in a certain way in one place will act completely different In other areas. Ever see people out of control at the art museum?  Would the same individuals create a disturbance in a nice restaurant? I think EdgewaterPark is a perfect example. Even though the improvements there are just in the beginning stages, 5 years ago you wouldn't feel comfortable there and you would encounter the same types of things you see at PS today. The change in behavior has been dramatic with work still to be done. When the Flats was in it's best days there was order and civility. As it degraded and the atmosphere changed, peoples behavior did also.  PS has certainly degraded to a point where it can affect peoples behavior.  I believe with the makeover of PS along with the addition of new residents around it and the hopeful new construction on the Jacobs lot, things will change for the better.

I'm going to disagree on the Flats portion.  It's always been a mess, kids throwing trash, car accidents, people having sex in cars or behind cars in parking lots, kids barfing left and right, people jumping in the water.

 

I do agree, once PS is made over it will connect East 4th with TC via Euclid and CC/MM Via Ontario. 

 

Lets hope the PS rehab has the same affect Perk Parks has had.  People love the park, more apartments are coming on line and when the Le Meridien comes online, it's guests will use it as a quiet spot.

 

Well the majority of that was alcohol driven.

 

No...no.  Not sure how you can say it was "alcohol driven".  If you're going to go that route, based on your previous message, why would those people come to the flats and be disrespectful of the surroundings.  Would they act in that manner in N. Olmsted, Bedford, Solon, Mayfield Hts., Rocky River, Old Brooklyn, etc? 

 

The flats was a party scene and with that come bad behavior that went unchecked, as it was not a neighborhood but a entertainment district.  It was in Downtown Cleveland and nobody really cared, because they could leave and go back to their neighborhood/suburb.

 

To bring it back to PS REdesign, once the area is redeveloped I think some of the actual experienced and perceived social ills were dissipate.

 

Their actions are inappropriate no matter how you try to sell it.

I just googled "Cleveland Public Square cat-calling" and the top hit is UrbanOhio

 

Well there aren't really any websites that would have people talking about it. You also get this...

 

Teen victim speaks out about violence on Public Square

"19 Action News captures video of police breaking up more fights on Cleveland's Public Square exposing an ongoing problem.

 

In fact, on Monday, a 17-year-old boy says he was knocked unconscious for no reason while waiting for a bus on the square.

 

Privately, officers say they break up fights and crowds of violent teens on a regular basis. Usually, the teens go after other teens after school.  Many kids switch buses and trains at Public Square and Tower City."

 

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/24465882/teen-victim-speaks-out-about-violence-on-public-square

 

I just googled "Cleveland Public Square cat-calling" and the top hit is UrbanOhio

 

Ahh well then surely the concerns are immaterial - I'm so glad you solved that for us through your google search!

 

What other site on the internet, other than urbanohio.com, would have discussion on that issue?  Do reporters write articles about cat-calling?

Well there aren't really any websites that would have people talking about it.

 

I don't doubt it happens.  Wait for the construction crews to show up ;).  But, I do think it gets blown out of proportion a bit on here, especially given the way this site has been trending lately.  If it was that rampant and serious of a problem, I would expect it to be at least mentioned on other sites where the participants are not 99% male.

 

I was genuinely curious.  It was just an observation.  If you guys say you're getting cat-called on Public Square, I don't disbelieve you.

I can't believe you guys don't support a women's right to not get harassed while walking through the square!  :wink:

 

 

Seriously though, besides the things that males hate about the culture/actions in the square, its even worse for women.  Its not overblown for those of us who have a wife, girlfriend, daughter, or close female friend that consistently has bad experiences in Public Square to the point that they avoid it when possible. A women shouldn't have to walk out of her way to avoid what some would call the heart of the city.

 

 

Edit: The public square healthline station is the worst on the entire route.

I don't doubt that there are women who have had bad experiences.  I personally don't know any who complain about it..... and I know A LOT of women (very attractive women too) who frequent downtown on a daily basis.  I've heard them complain about an occasional fight and aggressive pan-handling, but not one has ever mentioned to me these rampant cat-calls.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen (please re-read that sentence before responding).  I am on PS all the time and have never witnessed it myself.  I, for one, wouldn't hesitate to sit down and have some lunch on the SW quadrant.

 

I suppose my concern is that a lot of people come to this site to learn about our city, not simply rail against its faults.  If I knew nothing else, I would think PS is a cesspool of nothing but hooligans with hoodies running around sexually assaulting random women and pistol whipping unsuspecting strangers.  PS might not be a good look for our City in your opinion, but you are doing nothing to make it better.  Ranting about it in a thread dedicated to its development and improvement accomplishes nothing.  We (UO) used to be better than that.  To the extent such sensitive and DEBATABLE subjects were discussed, they either had their own thread or took place in something like "Crime & Safety"

That's a valid point.  This is a thread to discuss construction.  While certain topics blur the lines between how the project will affect the area vs. societal problems currently being experienced, I agree that much of this discussion shouldn't be on the 'projects and construction' forum.

We'll see how the redesign of Public Square might influence some of the issues raised here. But as Whipjacka said, let's keep this focused on the project. Certainly these other issues are affected by, and will affect the project. So let's keep our conversations along those lines.

 

BTW, we do have a Cleveland safety thread:  http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4065.0.html

I can't believe you guys don't support a women's right to not get harassed while walking through the square!  :wink:

 

 

Seriously though, besides the things that males hate about the culture/actions in the square, its even worse for women.  Its not overblown for those of us who have a wife, girlfriend, daughter, or close female friend that consistently has bad experiences in Public Square to the point that they avoid it when possible. A women shouldn't have to walk out of her way to avoid what some would call the heart of the city.

 

 

Edit: The public square healthline station is the worst on the entire route.

 

That's exactly the point.  While such things happening in a public space is probably unavoidable, it should not be placed in a spot which is difficult to avoid.

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/08012014/index.php

 

City Planning Commission

Agenda for August 15, 2014

 

DF2014-071 - Public Square Transformation

Project Location: Ontario Street and Superior Avenue

Project Representative: Richard Kennedy, James Corner Field Operations

Makeovers proposed for Public Square and Progressive Field win early stage design approval from the Cleveland Planning Commission

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

on August 15, 2014 at 7:40 PM, updated August 17, 2014 at 7:57 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Two high impact projects – the proposed re-do of Public Square and the Cleveland Indians' plan to revise areas of Progressive Field – won early-stage design approvals Friday from the city's planning commission.

 

In passing those hurdles, the projects gained an additional layer of public legitimacy plus momentum toward final approval by the commission, and, ultimately, construction permits.

 

The planning commission granted "schematic" approval to the ballpark and Public Square projects, an early stage traditionally followed by subsequent layers of approval. Both projects also received a thumb's up Thursday from the Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee, which provides non-binding advice to the planning commission.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/08/makeovers_proposed_for_public.html

Love this quote from the article.......

 

While closing Ontario Street concerned some questioners, others asked why Superior Avenue couldn't also be closed to traffic completely, thereby unifying the square.

 

Kennedy said that traffic studies completed to date indicated that stops on the avenue in the square are still needed to serve bus riders. But he said that in the design for the square would allow a complete closure of Superior Avenue in the future, if the city and RTA agreed it would be desirable. For now, though, buses will stay on Superior.

 

"We think transit is an important activator in the square," Zoller said at Friday's meeting. "It's an element that's critical to the city and the square."

"Superior Avenue in the square ultimately could have six to eight bus shelters, Kennedy said."

 

That feels like a lot to me for the space available.  And I think that's something the renderings leave out: buses idling down the center, a walk of people dividing the two halves of the square...  It's going to feel like two very separate pieces.  Probably better than what we have, but not as grand as what we're being promised.

 

"Superior Avenue in the square ultimately could have six to eight bus shelters, Kennedy said."

 

That feels like a lot to me for the space available.  And I think that's something the renderings leave out: buses idling down the center, a walk of people dividing the two halves of the square...  It's going to feel like two very separate pieces.  Probably better than what we have, but not as grand as what we're being promised.

 

 

Not as grand as was promised? What were we promised and by whom? Busses were always part of the plan. There was never any "promise" that the whole square would be closed to vehicular traffic for a myriad of reasons that have been covered exhaustively in this thread.  I wish people would start living in reality about this plan. It's so vastly better than what we have now, and people are still moaning. 

I wish people would start living in reality about this plan. It's so vastly better than what we have now, and people are still moaning.

 

Its $30 million. We shouldn't just accept ok, since its better than terrible. We should demand a great design. Having the park still cut into two and divided by a wall of bus stops is not a great design and will function terribly. Also we havent learned how the whole central crosswalk will work

This is a great design, IMO

^I agree and look forward to the remake.  Furthermore I think more information needs to be known about RTA's post public square plan before we pass judgement.  While some buses idle on the square presently during layovers that does not mean this will be the case in the future.  Will they move this to behind TC or somewhere else, or will this still happen on the square?  My guess is they will move this elsewhere.  Also, will all of the current routes flow through or around the square, or will some be relocated? 

 

I am fine with some buses moving through the square to provide access and transit connections.  The question is how many and if they idle there or move through efficiently.  This will determine if RTA will be an enhancement to the area or detriment, all depends on the treatment.

Hopefully a westside transportation center is in the future. The eastside center works great. Just build something like that and take a lot of the bus traffic away from PS. Because that's really the issue here, bus traffic. If it were streetcars we were talking about this probably wouldn't be an issue.

West prospect and Huron are great options to provide access to rail. Greater than the connection you would get at Superior. You could also put bus stops on East Roadway in front of 200 Public Square and the Old Courthouse. More stops can be on West Roadway in front of the parking lot, the Renaissance, and the Horseshoe.