The quadrants are being joined into what I guess we can call doublets or bisections with a limited access bisector busway.

 

Related. I enjoy how comfortable it is to jaywalk Ontario at the square now. Solid improvement.

April showers bring.... MUD! @TowerLightsCLE

 

It's not a real construction site until there's mud everywhere. Doesn't matter if it has even rained recently, there's always mud.

From before the rain:

I like how the quadrant with the Soldiers and Sailors' Monument is almost completely untouched compared the others.

 

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but how will the "buses-only" rule on Superior be enforced when this is finished? I'm sure there will be plenty of signage to deter any non-bus vehicles, but I can't help but think there will be a lot of impatient, self-entitled drivers plowing through there because they won't be bothered to drive around the Square like they're supposed to.

I'm guessing RTA places a transit police officer at either end (along with signage).

My bet is that it'll be just like all the other bus only lanes downtown, with plenty of people choosing not to understand all of the many signs and warnings that cars are not allowed.

 

Also, in all these pictures since construction started (and my own ventures around the square) I'm not seeing any signs of a "ring of steel". Hmm...

My bet is that it'll be just like all the other bus only lanes downtown, with plenty of people choosing not to understand all of the many signs and warnings that cars are not allowed.

 

Also, in all these pictures since construction started (and my own ventures around the square) I'm not seeing any signs of a "ring of steel". Hmm...

 

It will be a revenue producer for GCRTA police.

 

And I'm not sure what the Ring of Steel refers to. If it's the buses, that wasn't GCRTA's objection to running buses through the square. As I said a few posts upthread, GCRTA's objection was to the expense. A vehicle service-hour costs GCRTA $135. Running buses around the square adds up time over a year -- into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think the figure was $800,000 or so. If so, that's how much it costs GCRTA to run an entire bus route over a full year.

My bet is that it'll be just like all the other bus only lanes downtown, with plenty of people choosing not to understand all of the many signs and warnings that cars are not allowed.

 

Also, in all these pictures since construction started (and my own ventures around the square) I'm not seeing any signs of a "ring of steel". Hmm...

 

It will be a revenue producer for GCRTA police.

 

And I'm not sure what the Ring of Steel refers to. If it's the buses, that wasn't GCRTA's objection to running buses through the square. As I said a few posts upthread, GCRTA's objection was to the expense. A vehicle service-hour costs GCRTA $135. Running buses around the square adds up time over a year -- into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think the figure was $800,000 or so. If so, that's how much it costs GCRTA to run an entire bus route over a full year.

 

That's what i was referring to. I've heard the phrase alot to refer to the busses going around the square, but I'm not sure I've ever heard it from RTA now that you mention it. I had not considered the cost factor to it, but it does make sense since you pointed it out and sounds like something RTA would say as an excuse. I'm just disappointed like alot of us are that a once in a lifetime opportunity is being missed to unite the square based on things that really should be able to be worked out. I live downtown, and really have not seen any major disruption to the roads being closed. Like someone up thread pointed out, it's much nicer and easier to walk around down there now and cross the streets without fear of being run over.

I'm not sure where I saw the point of discussion where it may be that some of the stops on Westbound Superior East of the Square may need to be moved so that non-bus traffic can be more easily directed around the Square.  Given the width of Superior in that block, perhaps creating a pad/platform for riders in what is currently the left lane to board Westbound buses would also force non-bus traffic to the right lane?  Of course there will still be buses that need to turn right because Ontario will no longer exist.  Hmmm, I'm sure one of the brighter minds on this forum has an idea.

My bet is that it'll be just like all the other bus only lanes downtown, with plenty of people choosing not to understand all of the many signs and warnings that cars are not allowed.

 

Also, in all these pictures since construction started (and my own ventures around the square) I'm not seeing any signs of a "ring of steel". Hmm...

 

It will be a revenue producer for GCRTA police.

 

And I'm not sure what the Ring of Steel refers to. If it's the buses, that wasn't GCRTA's objection to running buses through the square. As I said a few posts upthread, GCRTA's objection was to the expense. A vehicle service-hour costs GCRTA $135. Running buses around the square adds up time over a year -- into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think the figure was $800,000 or so. If so, that's how much it costs GCRTA to run an entire bus route over a full year.

 

That's what i was referring to. I've heard the phrase alot to refer to the busses going around the square, but I'm not sure I've ever heard it from RTA now that you mention it. I had not considered the cost factor to it, but it does make sense since you pointed it out and sounds like something RTA would say as an excuse. I'm just disappointed like alot of us are that a once in a lifetime opportunity is being missed to unite the square based on things that really should be able to be worked out. I live downtown, and really have not seen any major disruption to the roads being closed. Like someone up thread pointed out, it's much nicer and easier to walk around down there now and cross the streets without fear of being run over.

 

The phrase came from the traffic study that the Group Plan commissioned for the closing of the streets through the square. I disagree that there haven't been disruptions. I go through Public Square every day to get to work, and the increased bus traffic around the perimeter is definitely noticeable. I can understand why they would be concerned about the new square feeling isolated from the surrounding streets due to all the bus traffic circling it.

 

The story below from Alison Grant talks about the recent slow downs the buses have been experiencing as well the point Bookman[/member] brought up about relocating stops on Superior: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/04/public_square_reroutes_creatin.html

 

 

Some bus stops have been temporarily removed from Public Square. That's why you don't feel the Ring of Steel impact. Wait until the bus stops are put back around the perimeter and see if it changes.

From last Friday.

 

Live cam:

 

http://www.towercitycenter.com/info/publicsquare

Live cam:

 

http://www.towercitycenter.com/info/publicsquare

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I just had a thought.  Someone should bury a time-capsule under the park while construction is being done.

I had the same thought!  I am surprised one was never placed under The Square all these years

Live cam:

 

http://www.towercitycenter.com/info/publicsquare

 

Seeing this for the first time, it cements my feeling that I don't want any traffic whatsoever bisecting it.

 

I don't like how the rendering hints at the street continuance through the square. It really takes away from the aesthetics.

That web cam is mesmerizing.  I'm gonna have to be careful not wasting too much time staring.  Wish we could also see West Superior and Ontario to get a better sense how backed up they get at rush hour.

"once in a lifetime opportunity (to close off the square)"

 

Hardly. If someone was so motivated they could close off the square on day one. All you need is some of those giant concrete planters. RTA could have their shelters moved well within a month.

"once in a lifetime opportunity (to close off the square)"

 

Hardly. If someone was so motivated they could close off the square on day one. All you need is some of those giant concrete planters. RTA could have their shelters moved well within a month.

 

Except when a road having a U.S. route designation is significantly altered, the Federal Highway Administration will require the project sponsor to undertake an alternatives analysis shaped by a public involvement process before taking "concrete" action.

^Isn't Superior being "significantly altered" if they close it to general traffic?

Isn't the issue with closing Superior more the added cost in time and money to RTA reroutes around the square? And I recall that the new bus stretch on Superior may be closed down on weekends for special events?

Isn't the issue with closing Superior more the added cost in time and money to RTA reroutes around the square? And I recall that the new bus stretch on Superior may be closed down on weekends for special events?

 

Yes. It would add significant cost to RTA as well as creating significant bus traffic around the perimeter of the square that would effectively cut it off from the outside sidewalks (some people on here deny that this is happening, but I can tell you that I see it every day and it's not a pleasant experience).

 

Superior's width will also be cut down in size and part of it will be covered in special pavers to help connect both sides of the square. It's not like a concerte road will be cutting through the middle. And they do plan to close it down for special events and likely during many weekends as well.

^Isn't Superior being "significantly altered" if they close it to general traffic?

 

Probably, and didn't the city conduct analyses with public input? I honestly don't remember the gory details.

Isn't the issue with closing Superior more the added cost in time and money to RTA reroutes around the square? And I recall that the new bus stretch on Superior may be closed down on weekends for special events?

 

Yes. It would add significant cost to RTA as well as creating significant bus traffic around the perimeter of the square that would effectively cut it off from the outside sidewalks (some people on here deny that this is happening, but I can tell you that I see it every day and it's not a pleasant experience).

 

Superior's width will also be cut down in size and part of it will be covered in special pavers to help connect both sides of the square. It's not like a concerte road will be cutting through the middle. And they do plan to close it down for special events and likely during many weekends as well.

 

 

The significant bus traffic that is circulating around the perimeter will now be funneled between the bisected square.  I've been mesmerized by the live cam for the past ten minutes and it is non-stop bus activity circling the square.  It's averaging about 5 buses on the square at once (at 8pm).  All this bus activity will be consolidated to crossing the middle of the square and become a constant stream of buses.  Will the two halves of the square become as segregated from one another as the four quadrants were before?

^ Not necessarily. Many of the buses (the Healthline and Trolleys for two examples) will continue to go around the perimeter. Not all that traffic will go through Superior. Plus, Superior won't have additional cars going through as it is only buses. With lower speed limits and pedestrian focused street spacing, I don't think that it'll be as cataclysmic as some people

Some progress.

Public Square renovation project raises $31.4 million of $32 million for construction but needs more for maintenance

 

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

on June 10, 2015 at 4:08 PM, updated June 10, 2015 at 5:44 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Fundraising for the renovation of Public Square, now under construction, has nearly reached $31.4 million of the $32 million project cost, plus nearly $2.4 million for programming and maintenance.

 

The nonprofit Group Plan Commission, which announced the milestones on Wednesday, also announced that a previously anonymous $2.5 million grant was contributed by the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel Foundation.

 

In recognition of that gift, the commission said the Concert Hill in the Public Square plan would be named for the Mandel brothers, philanthropists and founders of Cleveland-based Premier Industrial, later Premier Farnell PLC.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/06/public_square_renovation_proje.html#incart_m-rpt-1

CPC June19 DOWNTOWN/FLATS DESIGN REVIEW (no graphics yet)

 

DF2015-057 – Café at Public Square New Construction: Seeking Final Approval (except Signage)

Project Location: Public Square, Downtown Cleveland

Project Representative: Nora Romanoff, LAND Studio

Well I guess I pictured something much different. Not so squared off at the corners, something more accessible from all sides. Hard to tell the materials being used.  Not really loving it. Just liking it.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/06192015/index.php

^A just-posted Clevland.com piece has some detail about the materials and the reasons for the design changes:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/06/first_look_new_designs_for_pub.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Designed by nARCHITECTS of New York with Westlake Reed Leskosky of Cleveland, the design calls for a gemlike, trapezoidal structure sheathed in lustrous panels of folded steel.

 

It's a shame there isn't a second retail spot or info booth or something along the rear of the kitchen, to present a more open face to the Terminal Tower entry into the square.  But I have a lot of confidence LAND and the Group Plan folks will put the art wall to good use so it isn't just a blank wall.

 

And there better be some prominent signage facing SW to make clear from the back that this is a cafe.  I look forward to hearing more about the operator.  Happy the outdoor seating will be three seasons and will have alcohol.

Maybe it will grow on me, but my gut reation to seeing the picture above, after reading the Litt article is:

 

"Looks like a repurposed shipping container" 

 

 

I am not a fan.  This design has nothing to do with what has been shown for years.  The biggest question, I have always had, is how a building of any kind is allowed on the grounds of Public Square?  Moses Cleaveland laid the square out as public land never to built on and now we will have cafe selling alcohol ,burgers,and fries.  There are plenty of places to grab a bite to eat and carry it to the open space.  Now we will have a structure that blocks the views surrounding the park,  Always interesting to have renderings not showing  all the mechanicals.  I have written to Land_Studio, The Group Plan Commission, and Cleveland City Planning Commission to explain  whom the proposed operator was and how hey were allowed to dictate the design.  Every shape proposed has been an oval and now it is trapezoidal.  This definitely needs to be redesigned and not settled on just because the designers have pushed the timetable til the last possible moment. The RNC is no reason to approve this and again this facility should never have been allowed on Public Square. I want the park to remain building free unless i is some structure that honors the service of our citizens.

^ By that logic, wouldn't Moses Cleaveland also disapprove of the Soliders' and Sailors' Monument?

I know next to nothing about Public Square or its history, but I'm interested in its redesign, given that it's Cleveland's preeminent public space and town center like Cincinnati's Fountain Square, so I've been trying to keep up with its redesign. I know this ship has long sailed, but has anyone ever floated the idea of making PS a giant circle/traffic circle instead of the square with a bisecting street? It would seem that the Soldiers and Sailors monument could be moved to the center and surrounded by a park or hardscape plaza. I'm picturing Indy's Monument Circle as an inspiration- though maybe the scale of the S and S monument isn't large enough to act as the center piece.

 

It just seems odd to have the monument in one corner, with nothing anchoring the other quadrants. While the fact that there will now only be one bus-only street is an improvement, it still kills the cohesion of the square, and essentially makes it into two smaller rectangles. What is the general feeling about this reno plan in Cleveland? There was a lot of outcry by some in Cincinnati about centering the Fountain when FS was redone a few years ago. Most detractors cited that the renovation would remove the fountain from view of motorists on 5th street. Thankfully smarter minds prevailed, and the fountain was centered on the square, which just makes sense and feels right from a spatial perspective.

 

Also, I don't hate the design of the cafe, but I think it could be a little less angular and a little more glassy. As far as a building obstructing views and not having a place on the public square, I think it will actually aid in the feeling that the square is a place to hangout and linger rather than just pass through. Fountain Square's renovation included the construction of Via Vite on the square, and while it's not the most attractive building, it has brought energy and visitors to the square, and the big windows allow interior energy to be seen from the square. Overall, I think it's a great idea to put a restaurant on the square.

The S&S monument is larger than you think, so large that it probably cannot be moved. It's about 200 feet tall, or some 80 feet shorter than Indianapolis'. In the 1890s when the monument was built, there was consideration of constructing other public buildings on the square, namely a new city hall above Ontario north of Superior. I believe that's one of the reasons why it was built off to the side like that.

 

Kind of too late to change the plan to a circle now. :) Check back when Public Square is due for it's next major renovation, which seems to occur roughly every 40-80 years.

 

Some of the oldest images of Public Square....

 

1833 looking west on Euclid Avenue toward Public Square with downtown between the square and the river, north (right) to the mouth.

 

 

Troops marching or parading on Public Square in the 1830s.

 

 

1839 Second Cleveland Ohio Courthouse and Public Square by Sebastian Heine.

 

 

A heavily forested (yep, the Forest City!) Public Square c1880 looking east toward Euclid and where the S&S monument would rise at far left.

 

 

1895 City Hall plan, as seen roughly from the S&S monument.

 

 

Public Square pano in the year the Titanic sank.

^ By that logic, wouldn't Moses Cleaveland also disapprove of the Soliders' and Sailors' Monument?

 

No because that is a monument to the service of the citizens whom fought during The Civil War.  It is not a building

  Now we will have a structure that blocks the views surrounding the park,  Every shape proposed has been an oval and now it is trapezoidal. 

 

Whether it is oval or trapezoidal, it still will block some views.

 

  Every shape proposed has been an oval and now it is trapezoidal. 

 

The design team for Public Square originally envisioned the cafe as an elliptical structure clad in black metal panels and glass.

 

As they tested the idea with a potential cafe operator – whom the Group Plan Commission declined to name because negotiations are still under way – they realized a rectilinear design would be more functional.

 

Why such an objection to the more rectilinear design?  I'm not exactly thrilled with the design either, but I don't have a problem with the form.  Although if Heinens can shoehorn their operations into the Trust Rotundra, I'm sure this café operator could have made it work.

I'm not opposed to the cafe on principle, but I'm not a fan of the design. I think it'll look dated in just a few years

^True- but so will any other architectural style chosen.  I'm not opposed to it in design- I would have hoped for something a bit more transparent, which could help out in the perception of safety for some.

I just don't like that the first thing you'll see from the Terminal Tower entry is the back of a building. The quality of the art wall will make or break this building.

Upon first view of the renderings I initially thought the art wall was supposed to be some kind of giant LED panel, based on the way it was drawn. :) Good thing it's not.

For comparison.

The first 2 renderings are what the project's cafe was proposed since 2013

The third image was the design from fall of 2014.

 

In my opinion the first design is still the best.

^True- but so will any other architectural style chosen. 

 

There are plenty of buildings downtown that still look great 100+ years later.  "Dated" often seems to mean "never any good in the first place."

^That's a misunderstanding of style.

 

All architecture goes through the "dated" phase beginning about 15-20 years after its completion. It strongly remains there for handful of decades until it is 50 or so years old which is when people begin to realize its merit. Then from that point on the desire to keep it around grows until it's basically universally accepted that it's an important part of history which is precisely where buildings that are 75+ years old sit.

 

No style escapes the "dated" phase. It's a reality of anything with an aesthetic element.

For comparison.

The first 2 renderings are what the project's cafe was proposed since 2013

The third image was the design from fall of 2014.

 

In my opinion the first design is still the best.

 

The first one is really just a big kiosk.  You made clear your objection to buildings on public square, but I'm really happy the cafe has expanded into a more significant structure that will have enclosed seating.  If open year round, it will be a very welcome sign of life during our long gray months.

^That's a misunderstanding of style.

 

All architecture goes through the "dated" phase beginning about 15-20 years after its completion. It strongly remains there for handful of decades until it is 50 or so years old which is when people begin to realize its merit. Then from that point on the desire to keep it around grows until it's basically universally accepted that it's an important part of history which is precisely where buildings that are 75+ years old sit.

 

No style escapes the "dated" phase. It's a reality of anything with an aesthetic element.

 

Granted, but the classical style had been through that whole cycle by the time Caesar came around.  It's been utilized ever since for good reason.  And I'm not sure any amount of time will ever make Brutalism equal to that.  Sometimes bad is just bad.

 

I'm not saying this cafe needs to look like the Jefferson Memorial, but it doesn't need to look like a container for old CDs either. 

^I wouldn't bet on your statement about brutalism. Preservation associations are kicking into high gear when it comes to ensuring the best examples of brutalism remain intact. As they should be, for better or worse. Some examples are actually incredibly amazing spaces and structures, but it's a style that was muddled with lots of really poor choices from a societal standpoint that just don't apply to today's desires for how pedestrians interact with buildings.

 

Examples of brutalism like anything by Paul Rudolph or many examples by Im Pei such as the Christian Science plaza in Boston are really amazing buildings that create a sense of lightness out of a super heavy and dominating material which is what the purpose of brutalism was (but much was severely unsuccessful). They're great places to occupy.

 

Then you get things like Boston City Hall which are one step away from being great but really mess up their ground level and public space which ruins it. But preservation of brutalism is definitely happening and is only going to get stronger.

Taste being taste, suit yourself... but I just can't see people paying homage to the CSU campus 1000 years from now.  And that's even assuming people between now and then develop an appreciation for the russet tones of rebar bleeding through.

I do think certain styles of architecture hold up better than others. What matters more, though, is the quality of the design by itself (regardless of the style). For example, I think the Breuer Tower ("The 9") holds up pretty well as a nice example of brutalism that also respects its surroundings. The Justice Center... not so much.

 

My criticism of the cafe isn't necessarily with the design - it's with the placement of the building. I hate that the back of the building faces the Tower City entry. The art wall could possibly resolve that issue, if it's done well.