^double click the small cam view and it opens up into a full screen mode.

 

Ahhh, I knew it was there.  Thanks Firenze98!!!

On Time, But Over-Budget. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/clevelands-public-square-project-continues-on-pace-for-june-1-2016-opening

^Where's the "over-budget" part from?

^Where's the "over-budget" part from?

 

"The Group Plan is about $5 million below that goal in fundraising and they've made a request to the state for $3.5 million to help them."

 

It doesn't explicitly say it in this story, but the $5 million shortfall is because the project cost was higher than originally anticipated

I wonder what the cuts would be without the additional funding. IMHO, I would eliminate the cafe.

 

I doubt they would eliminate the revenue producing aspect of the project.

I doubt they would eliminate the revenue producing aspect of the project.

How much revenue do you think the cafe will produce?  Will it be enough to justify the space and investment?  Someone should ask Zack Bruell how his Dynomite Burgers is doing at Playhouse Square.

Eliminating the cafe would be an absolutely terrible choice honestly. You don't remove revenue and activity generators from your project if you want it to be a space that is used to its fullest. A cafe is a huge asset in a public square.

I doubt they would eliminate the revenue producing aspect of the project.

How much revenue do you think the cafe will produce?  Will it be enough to justify the space and investment?  Someone should ask Zack Bruell how his Dynomite Burgers is doing at Playhouse Square.

 

The retail component is probably the most sensible addition to PS. There needs to be more reason to hang around the Square, not less.

Can a space for the cafe be rented out and then have a private vendor build it from their own project revenues?

Speaking of the cafe space, shouldn't we have heard whom was chosen to run the space and what will be served? I assume they have a say in the design

Speaking of the cafe space, shouldn't we have heard whom was chosen to run the space and what will be served? I assume they have a say in the design

 

Steve Litt mentioned in an article back in June that the original design of the cafe was altered based upon feedback from the potential operator. The name of the operator wasn't released because contract negotiations were still ongoing. Haven't seen any more news on that since then

I doubt they would eliminate the revenue producing aspect of the project.

How much revenue do you think the cafe will produce?  Will it be enough to justify the space and investment?  Someone should ask Zack Bruell how his Dynomite Burgers is doing at Playhouse Square.

 

Because the whole Public Square cafe should hinge on how Zach's Dynomite Burgers is doing? 

 

this week...

 

 

 

I doubt they would eliminate the revenue producing aspect of the project.

How much revenue do you think the cafe will produce?  Will it be enough to justify the space and investment?  Someone should ask Zack Bruell how his Dynomite Burgers is doing at Playhouse Square.

 

Because the whole Public Square cafe should hinge on how Zach's Dynomite Burgers is doing? 

Hinge?  No not hinge, I just mention Dynomite as an example of a standalone cafe in an outdoor area.  I would hope think that having some sense of the performance of that location could be utilized in developing projections for the PS Cafe.

 

Frankly, IMHO, the key usage of the new PS is going to be special events.  Those will generate revenue and need a lot more than the cafe to provide food and beverages.

its such an incredibly massive and transformative project -- this is really going to up the game around the square, meaning of course pressure on the warehouse district to redevelop.

I think a well run coffee shop with light meals/salads would be perfect

I think a well run coffee shop with light meals/salads would be perfect

 

And beer and wine

^Yes. With apologies to Lisa Simpson, people probably won't be hanging out at night on the square for salads.

I don't see how that would work in winter

If we make a quality, interesting space, people will hang out there all the time. Pittsburgh's market square is a great example. I would go down there on a cold but sunny day all year and there are tons of people just sitting. Enjoying watching people. Even if there wasn't an event, it was a great place to just sit and enjoy everything going on around you.

 

Cleveland will have the challenge of having a significantly larger space, but the plans and designs seem to shrink it to a comfortable size. And the buildings around it are already starting to place active first floor uses (200 public square, 75 public square, renaissance hotel). This won't be just an event space. I really think it will be a great everyday space.

^^I just meant at the cafe, not at the Square overall. Note that the cafe won't just be a kiosk. The plans approved by the city suggest it will have an indoor table seating area and a bar, so it should be fully operational and viable all year long if it offers something diners/drinkers want.

 

In any case, I'm pretty sure it's a foregone conclusion there will be beer/wine at this place. I think the outdoor seating area has even been designed with this in mind, with whatever separation the silly state regs require.

I don't see how that would work in winter

 

With the splash pad turned ice rink, the café is perfect for a spot to grab coffee or hot chocolate to warm up. 

I don't see how that would work in winter

 

Bryant Park in NYC creates a "winter wonderland" and it's very effective. However I'm concerned that Public Square won't have enough programming or retail options to create critical mass. 

 

I don't see how that would work in winter

 

Bryant Park in NYC creates a "winter wonderland" and it's very effective. However I'm concerned that Public Square won't have enough programming or retail options to create critical mass.

BINGO, it's the same (not the only) reason why the malls hasn't been as successful as it could have been (and could be) since their renovations.

^^I expect there will be pretty robust programming on PS, to be honest. Part of the fund-raising effort has had that very thing in mind. And part of the programming will probably include regular markets and other events that bring in retail, especially on weekends, when the bus-way can be closed.

I hope that is true regarding programming PS.  I remember the same was said about Malls A-B-C and very little programming has happened.

^^I expect there will be pretty robust programming on PS, to be honest. Part of the fund-raising effort has had that very thing in mind. And part of the programming will probably include regular markets and other events that bring in retail, especially on weekends, when the bus-way can be closed.

That may take a bite out of Heinens profits. 

^There's been a weekly/seasonal farmers' market on Public Square for a few years now. It's been closed during the reconstruction process, but it will come back next year: http://www.downtowncleveland.com/events/downtown-farmers-market.aspx 

 

^^I think the Malls have taken a back seat to public square. Once public square is finished, the Group Plan Commission will shift attention back to enhancing the Malls.

It sounds like the state is reluctant to fork over any cash. I had been expecting that this would just happen without much of a fight.

 

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson joins request for state cash for Public Square

 

By Andrew J. Tobias, cleveland.com

on December 08, 2015 at 5:26 PM, updated December 09, 2015 at 8:18 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, joining a request from the local chamber of commerce and others, this week asked for $5 million in state funding to complete an ongoing renovation of Public Square.

 

The funding, Jackson said, would help the $50 million project remain on track to be completed before Cleveland hosts the Republican National Convention in July 2016.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_28.html

It sounds like the state is reluctant to fork over any cash. I had been expecting that this would just happen without much of a fight.

 

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson joins request for state cash for Public Square

 

By Andrew J. Tobias, cleveland.com

 

on December 08, 2015 at 5:26 PM, updated December 09, 2015 at 8:18 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, joining a request from the local chamber of commerce and others, this week asked for $5 million in state funding to complete an ongoing renovation of Public Square.

 

The funding, Jackson said, would help the $50 million project remain on track to be completed before Cleveland hosts the Republican National Convention in July 2016.

 

this project has not been forthcoming on sticking to its statements or budgets.  I would rather The State give 5 million dollars to hire more police officers than more money for seats and other frivolous features to Public Square. 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_28.html

https://ceacisp.org/news/public-square-makeover-hits-32-million-budget-deal-between-cuyahoga-county-rock-ohio-caesars

 

With $32 million committed - and a guaranteed price-ceiling and timeline from contractors - construction can start even though the bonds haven't been issued. But that doesn't mean the heavy lifting is done. The Group Plan Commission still needs to raise money for long-term maintenance of the square and for events and activities that will keep the space lively.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/10/double_shifts_keep_public_squa.html

Of the $5 million increase, $2.7 million is a contingency to cover the potential need to accelerate work to compensate for bad weather or other conditions, and to cover the cost of increased seating for the square's new outdoor café and other design elements, Paris and Deb Janik, the senior vice president for real estate and business development at the partnership, said Tuesday.

^I was thinking of that as well- I was under the impression that the city already hit the mark with fundraising.  Now the project is $50 mil versus the $32 million which was mentioned earlier this year?  Either this is sloppy journalism, or something else is going on.

Maybe the plan all along was to dare Kasich to let this giant mess go on TV next summer.

We should threaten to use the site as an open air garbage incinerator during the RNC if we don't get the money.

I am still amazed that this project was green lit  when nobody ever figured the underground work into the 32 million dollar budget!  Someone should have lost there job over this omission to the public.  Asking the state for an extra 5 million dollars for frivilous items such as extra seating by the cafe s ridiculous. If Cleveland is asking for more money spend that money on hiring more police officers.

There are certainly better uses for $50 million in this town, and police staffing is prominent among them.  I tend to think that after so much was spent on the adjacent convention center and malls, that maybe a series of neighborhood investments would have been the more appropriate follow-up.  It's staggering how much money has been spent tearing up parks to replace them with slightly different parks.

There are certainly better uses for $50 million in this town, and police staffing is prominent among them.  I tend to think that after so much was spent on the adjacent convention center and malls, that maybe a series of neighborhood investments would have been the more appropriate follow-up.  It's staggering how much money has been spent tearing up parks to replace them with slightly different parks.

 

What about the $30 million that was raised with private funds? I agree that investing in neighborhoods is important and has been overlooked in this town, but Public Square has been an awful public space at the center of our city for decades. I think this project will be transformative in so many positive ways for decades to come. Plus it's going to a space that can be used by everyone in the city and has the best public transit access of any place in the region-- as opposed to shelling out millions to build a facility that will be managed by a private organization who gets to reap the profits of said facility and charge premium prices to the city residents who wish to access it.

There are certainly better uses for $50 million in this town, and police staffing is prominent among them.  I tend to think that after so much was spent on the adjacent convention center and malls, that maybe a series of neighborhood investments would have been the more appropriate follow-up.  It's staggering how much money has been spent tearing up parks to replace them with slightly different parks.

 

I'm sorry, "slightly different parks." You're joking right? In what way at all is this even remotely like the previous version of Public Square?

 

Parks are very much the backbone of neighborhoods. World class parks go a long way towards improving outsiders' image of a city as well which is incredibly beneficial to Cleveland.

 

Did the comments section from Cleveland.com leak into Urbanohio?

There are certainly better uses for $50 million in this town, and police staffing is prominent among them.  I tend to think that after so much was spent on the adjacent convention center and malls, that maybe a series of neighborhood investments would have been the more appropriate follow-up.  It's staggering how much money has been spent tearing up parks to replace them with slightly different parks.

 

What about the $30 million that was raised with private funds? I agree that investing in neighborhoods is important and has been overlooked in this town, but Public Square has been an awful public space at the center of our city for decades. I think this project will be transformative in so many positive ways for decades to come. Plus it's going to a space that can be used by everyone in the city and has the best public transit access of any place in the region-- as opposed to shelling out millions to build a facility that will be managed by a private organization who gets to reap the profits of said facility and charge premium prices to the city residents who wish to access it.

 

Most of those positives were true before though.  People used to gripe about the square being too crowded, rather than underutilized, which was the impetus behind wanting to move the bus stops elsewhere.  I just feel like this is a lot of money to spend for yet another rebuilt park.  Thankfully, we are beginning to run short of downtown parks that haven't been torn apart and rebuilt in the last decade.

 

There are certainly better uses for $50 million in this town, and police staffing is prominent among them.  I tend to think that after so much was spent on the adjacent convention center and malls, that maybe a series of neighborhood investments would have been the more appropriate follow-up.  It's staggering how much money has been spent tearing up parks to replace them with slightly different parks.

 

I'm sorry, "slightly different parks." You're joking right? In what way at all is this even remotely like the previous version of Public Square?

 

Parks are very much the backbone of neighborhoods. World class parks go a long way towards improving outsiders' image of a city as well which is incredibly beneficial to Cleveland.

 

Did the comments section from Cleveland.com leak into Urbanohio?

 

I'm not saying parks are unimportant, I just don't think they deserve the level of funding priority that we've recently seen.  I personally view homes and businesses as the backbones of neighborhoods.  To me those are significantly more important in locals' daily lives, as well as more influential on outsiders' opinions.  And I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Cleveland.com. 

Please, do explain, how this is "just another park." It's the central public space of Cleveland. And it was god awful before. It was chopped up, incoherent, was absolutely useless for any programming beyond "passing through while on the way to the bus stop" and was aesthetically terrible.

 

This is just baffling to me.

It has to do with cleveland.com because you've asked how a capital expenditure is more important than an operation expense. Those aren't from the same budget. Those two things aren't interchangeable. The money for this park couldn't just be redirected into hiring police. These types of arguments are posed all the time on any development thread on Cleveland.com.

 

Just look to Cincinnati for an example of what redoing the city's most prominent public square can do for a city. Everything you've said can be found on articles about Fountain Square from circa 2003 or so when the plan to renovate it was getting started. Finding a person who has used the new Fountain Square who still holds those views is all but impossible.

It has to do with cleveland.com because you've asked how a capital expenditure is more important than an operation expense. Those aren't from the same budget. Those two things aren't interchangeable. The money for this park couldn't just be redirected into hiring police. These types of arguments are posed all the time on any development thread on Cleveland.com.

 

Just look to Cincinnati for an example of what redoing the city's most prominent public square can do for a city. Everything you've said can be found on articles about Fountain Square from circa 2003 or so when the plan to renovate it was getting started. Finding a person who has used the new Fountain Square who still holds those views is all but impossible.

 

Or Campus Martius in Detroit...

Please, do explain, how this is "just another park." It's the central public space of Cleveland. And it was god awful before. It was chopped up, incoherent, was absolutely useless for any programming beyond "passing through while on the way to the bus stop" and was aesthetically terrible.

 

This is just baffling to me.

 

 

Programmng special events never seemed impossible. 4th of July Cleveland Orchestra events worked great. So did Winterfest.

Please, do explain, how this is "just another park." It's the central public space of Cleveland. And it was god awful before. It was chopped up, incoherent, was absolutely useless for any programming beyond "passing through while on the way to the bus stop" and was aesthetically terrible.

 

This is just baffling to me.

 

 

Programmng special events never seemed impossible. 4th of July Cleveland Orchestra events worked great. So did Winterfest.

 

The 4th of July concert and Winterfest were nice because the roads in the square were shut down. It was during those events that I would often think about the untapped potential of Public Square and how it could be an active civic gathering spot for more than just a couple days during the year

Please, do explain, how this is "just another park." It's the central public space of Cleveland. And it was god awful before. It was chopped up, incoherent, was absolutely useless for any programming beyond "passing through while on the way to the bus stop" and was aesthetically terrible.

 

This is just baffling to me.

 

 

Programmng special events never seemed impossible. 4th of July Cleveland Orchestra events worked great. So did Winterfest.

 

Because they closed the roads. Which is my point. The square itself wasn't useful. The roads were and were used as the primary space for those events. The new Public Square allows for events to occur without having to make changes, set up barriers, etc. It can all happen within a well planned and properly designed public space.

But it still will. Last I checked the design still has Superior dividing Public Square. I am all for this design. I am just against the costs that keep rising. Th public deserved to know the truth prior to rushing  construction.  extra monetary requests for additional cafe seating is not a necessity for this development to ask of the State to cover

It has to do with cleveland.com because you've asked how a capital expenditure is more important than an operation expense. Those aren't from the same budget. Those two things aren't interchangeable. The money for this park couldn't just be redirected into hiring police. These types of arguments are posed all the time on any development thread on Cleveland.com.

 

That seems like quite a stretch for an ad hominem.   

 

Leaving aside whether this is the best possible capital investment, could you explain more about mandatory capital spending?  Are cities really forced to build parks if, for example, they wanted to hire police instead?  Cities can't decide how to structure their budgets, or how to spend their own general funds?  That's the impression I get from your post, but it's not how I understand the budgeting process to work.  Certain specific grants may come with strings attached, but money is generally fungible-- are you citing any particular code to the contrary?

 

I didn't find Public Square to be especially ugly, unusable, or underutilized before.  Ideal?  No, but not awful.  Not in dire need of $50 million.

 

I didn't find Public Square to be especially ugly, unusable, or underutilized before.  Ideal?  No, but not awful.  Not in dire need of $50 million.

 

I never had strong negative feelings about Public Square either...until I started spending a lot of time in other peer cities and saw how much better it could be. Then I fully realized how ugly, unusable, underutilized, and awful it was.

It has to do with cleveland.com because you've asked how a capital expenditure is more important than an operation expense. Those aren't from the same budget. Those two things aren't interchangeable. The money for this park couldn't just be redirected into hiring police. These types of arguments are posed all the time on any development thread on Cleveland.com.

 

It's not like he's a lawyer. Oh wait...

Some details about project funding can be found at the link below, which also makes clear that I'm not the first to question these policy choices.  If the city wanted to use casino proceeds to improve public safety or invest in neighborhoods, it most certainly could have.  Same goes for the foundations, they can donate however they so choose.  No sense getting hung up on how everyone's hands are tied-- they aren't. 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2014/09/cleveland_city_council_approve_7.html