If someone is sitting in a bus shelter for an hour or more in the middle of the night on Public Square, Cleveland police cannot arrest them for violating the curfew. That's according to Councilman Joe Cimperman.

It's that kind of petty-@ss bullsh!t of who has what jurisdiction over what measly part of their respective fifedom that chaps my @ss!!!

aka, juris-my-diction.

 

So how are they going to enforce this anyway? I was under the impression there weren't any patrols assigned to downtown during the week, is that incorrect?

I know that the Bedford police once removed a dead person from a stop without RTA police involvment, but its true I've yet to see them roust people sleeping in them.

It's spring so I just want to b1tch again about what a lousy underachiever Public Square is and how much sense it would have made to tie a comprehenisve re-do of the square (including closing the cross streets) into the ECP construction.

It's spring so I just want to b1tch again about what a lousy underachiever Public Square is and how much sense it would have made to tie a comprehenisve re-do of the square (including closing the cross streets) into the ECP construction.

 

Since you're bitching, what have you done to speak to those downtown the mayors office etc and share any  ideas you might have?  Seriously?

 

With the Jacobs tower going up AND the Healthline coming online soon, potentially the city and county along with the tenants (200 Public Square, Key, TT/Forest City and Jacobs) around the square can combine to make the square a wonderful asset.

^I think there is a definite ceiling on how great the Square can be when so much of it is roadway, but it certainly could use some incremental improvements.

There is currently a task force "looking into" options surrounding public square.  From what I heard the initial "data" isn't looking good at getting those roadways closed.

^Yeah, I realize it's going to take some serious political leadership to roll over the traffic engineers for this to happen.  If it were always up to "data", 5th Avenue would still cut through the center of Washington Square in NYC and there would still be a highway along the SF waterfront.

I would rather see the shoreway rebuilt if given the choice.

^Yeah, I realize it's going to take some serious political leadership to roll over the traffic engineers for this to happen.  If it were always up to "data", 5th Avenue would still cut through the center of Washington Square in NYC and there would still be a highway along the SF waterfront.

 

Thats comparing apples to oranges.  Washington square park had traffic until '58 and is uniquely different than Public Square. 

 

Stop comparing NYC, Chicago, DC or whatever city to Cleveland it makes no sense.

What does everyone think about turning it into a circular intersection, if it is not feasible to completely close down the square?  The Soldiers/Sailors monument could be the centerpiece...w/Moses Cleveland positioned in such a way that it is "greeting" those that arrive via Superior to the West...

 

How can that be done without affecting the Soldiers and Sailors monument?

I actually bring up the columbus circle to PS comparison all the time.  NYC has a roundabout at one of their busiest intersections, and people and cars get about just fine... and there is 12 million plus people in said area, and tons of traffic congestion... how come we , and our 2+ million person regional population "have" to have access through public square.  Big surprise, ODOT gets huffy and puffy because of potential "traffic congestion" and the fact that these are state routes.

 

EDIT:  Why do we even need a circle? Why can't they just drive around the square?

obviously under my suggestion, the S&S would have to be moved...

I actually bring up the columbus circle to PS comparison all the time.  NYC has a roundabout at one of their busiest intersections, and people and cars get about just fine... and there is 12 million plus people in said area, and tons of traffic congestion... how come we , and our 2+ million person regional population "have" to have access through public square.  Big surprise, ODOT gets huffy and puffy because of potential "traffic congestion" and the fact that these are state routes.

 

I look out directly at that circle.  Here again we're comparing apples to oranges.  We had to pay to pay to redo that damn park along with the MTA.  Totally different that what is at Clevelands public square.

Thats comparing apples to oranges.  Washington square park had traffic until '58 and is uniquely different than Public Square. 

 

Stop comparing NYC, Chicago, DC or whatever city to Cleveland it makes no sense.

 

 

Good christ, it's not a substantive comparison, just a point that listening to "data" from traffic engineers should not end the discussion.  If you need a local example, how about: if we listened to traffic engineers, there would be a highway cutting through the Shaker Lakes.

 

The point is that opportunity costs need to enter the equation. Public Square is currently a set of four crappy traffic islands.  The benefits of creating a flagship public space downtown at the center of activity could be enormous.  I'm sure someone could come up with some "data" to illustrate.

 

EDIT:  Why do we even need a circle? Why can't they just drive around the square?

 

You're right, it wouldn't need to be...then we could have the added benefit of keeping our readily identifiable namesake, Public "Square".

^I agree, no need to make it a circle.  You would likely have to widen the roadway along the perimeter, but that would a small price to pay for reclaiming the interior roadways.

I actually bring up the columbus circle to PS comparison all the time.  NYC has a roundabout at one of their busiest intersections, and people and cars get about just fine... and there is 12 million plus people in said area, and tons of traffic congestion... how come we , and our 2+ million person regional population "have" to have access through public square.  Big surprise, ODOT gets huffy and puffy because of potential "traffic congestion" and the fact that these are state routes.

 

I look out directly at that circle.  Here again we're comparing apples to oranges.  We had to pay to pay to redo that damn park along with the MTA.  Totally different that what is at Clevelands public square.

 

My NY office looks directly out at it too MTS... If I wasn't such an idiot I would post a pic, but I am too dumb to figure out how to make a 550kb file small enough to post.

 

My only point being that if they can get by with no through streets in an area that processes that much volume, so can we.

Actually we could actually get away with a "Football" shaped traffic circle. Leave the corner infront of the terminal tower the way it is. The SE corner that connects to euclid already open enough to allow for a continous turn the way it is, I think the NE corner by key would have to be reworked into some sort of curve because it is too sharp as it is now . The Frankfort corner could be reworked into something like the euclid corner.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

Actually I don't think it matters because there are a lot of cogity old b*stards who are hell bent on not allowing the closing of the cross streets to happen.  Save a big change in political leadership, not much is going to change there I'm afraid.

^Too bad Mike White didn't want one more legacy project...

i'm sorry but traffic would not be impeded enough to force some sort of "congestion" or traffic snarl IMO.  When I went to a 2-week long seminar in the BP building, I had a direct view of PSquare for the entire day, and I saw a traffic pattern/volume that could be very easily diverted onto the perimeter without much ensuing difficulty.  I know this is highly anecdotal and not quantifiable in anyway, but does anyone disagree?

When I worked at SOHIO, a proposition was floated for us to get the center roadways closed (in summer) so people could just walk the square.

 

I would suggest a test of weekends and summers first.  Gradually ease people into losing direct thru access.

^ a la east 4th in a way...

I would suggest a test of weekends and summers first.  Gradually ease people into losing direct thru access.

 

That's definitely a good idea- and the water main break sort of made it happen.  Don't know if anyone mobilized to monitor the results though.  The problem with part time closures (like weekends) is that drivers may not adjust their routes in anticipation which could exaggerate the impact.  Also, I'm guessing the "data" that is dragging this idea down relates to rush hour traffic flow.

i'm sorry but traffic would not be impeded enough to force some sort of "congestion" or traffic snarl IMO.  When I went to a 2-week long seminar in the BP building, I had a direct view of PSquare for the entire day, and I saw a traffic pattern/volume that could be very easily diverted onto the perimeter without much ensuing difficulty.  I know this is highly anecdotal and not quantifiable in anyway, but does anyone disagree?

 

No sane person disagrees, but you'd be amazed at how p*ssed off some of these people get when it's even mentioned.  They bring odot into it, start talking about state roads, and essentially walk away from you.  It's unreal.  This should be a very easy decision.

I would suggest a test of weekends and summers first.  Gradually ease people into losing direct thru access.

 

That's definitely a good idea- and the water main break sort of made it happen.  Don't know if anyone mobilized to monitor the results though.  The problem with part time closures (like weekends) is that drivers may not adjust their routes in anticipation which could exaggerate the impact.  Also, I'm guessing the "data" that is dragging this idea down relates to rush hour traffic flow.

 

The second the sink hole was announced, I emailed about 5 people involved with this and told them someone better start monitoring traffic patterns.  The problem of course is that 24 hours after the sink hole hit mother nature dropped 2 feet of snow on us which took away a lane in each direction on every major road out of the square (not to mention euclid was one way anyway).  So traffic was a nightmare.  Now any time the closing is mentioned somebody chimes in with a "Look what happened when the sink hole was there!"  They won't acknowledge that the snow fell...

I am too dumb to figure out how to make a 550kb file small enough to post.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/learnmore/tips/eschelman2.mspx

I am too dumb to figure out how to make a 550kb file small enough to post.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/learnmore/tips/eschelman2.mspx

 

HOLY CRAP! JAMJEFF IS MY HERO!

What a lovely building that is!  LOL  :evil:

I'm all for traffic circles as long as they're configured correctly (i.e. NOT like the one at MLK and E. 105 where people on the circle have to yield to incoming traffic)!

I'm not saying we necessarily need a traffic circle... but if this many people can get by without having to go directly through CPW / 8th avenue... and do it pretty easily, we can probably get by without having to go straight through superior.  I mean what would it add, 2 minutes to someone's drive... boo f*cking hoo.

I'm not saying we necessarily need a traffic circle... but if this many people can get by without having to go directly through CPW / 8th avenue... and do it pretty easily, we can probably get by without having to go straight through superior.  I mean what would it add, 2 minutes to someone's drive... boo f*cking hoo.

 

However, it's not always been this way.  IIRC, when I first moved to NYC, you could not turn onto CPW from the circle. thats only changed in the last 10 years.

 

Now back to Clevelands Public Square.

what would it take to make this happen?  What if we were to have all the major tenants on public square on board with the idea? Key/Forest City/etc... Circulate a petition?  Wouldn't ODOT be more inclined to listen then?

 

It becomes increasingly logical, the more I think about this.  Why not have a pseudo forest, in the "forest city", on our trademark public property, which is at the footstep of the Forest City Enterprises offices....

what would it take to make this happen?  What if we were to have all the major tenants on public square on board with the idea? Key/Forest City/etc... Circulate a petition?  Wouldn't ODOT be more inclined to listen then?

 

It becomes increasingly logical, the more I think about this.  Why not have a pseudo forest, in the "forest city", on our trademark public property, which is at the footstep of the Forest City Enterprises offices....

 

you are so losing me on all of this.

what would it take to make this happen?  What if we were to have all the major tenants on public square on board with the idea? Key/Forest City/etc... Circulate a petition?  Wouldn't ODOT be more inclined to listen then?

 

IIRC from my SOHIO days, we were talking to the county, and Cleveland's Public Service (I think transporation and Construction are under this person), zoning and Park Departments, as they maintain Public Square.

 

May Co and SOHIO wanted to have the park interior streets closed and at that time Forest City was playing well since TC was booming.

^even with that support, ODOT wouldn't play ball...geez

^even with that support, ODOT wouldn't play ball...geez

 

Don't forget you have federal routes running through here....

^even with that support, ODOT wouldn't play ball...geez

 

Not really, I think we had a good case, but then I got shipped to London and then SOHIO left so the "idea" went out the window.  SOHIO had a lot of community issues "influence".  If I called, city hall listened.

Drivers in Cleveland can't seem to handle traffic circles.  (See W 14th/Quigley).  I'd vote for just closing the intersections.  Perhaps the streets (East Roadway/Frankfurt/Rockwell) would be a little narrow...

^even with that support, ODOT wouldn't play ball...geez

 

Don't forget you have federal routes running through here....

 

yeah but the County was looking at getting some sort of order that would prevent trucks/traffic from going over the bridge and lose federal money.

 

It was some sort of special "re-route"  I can't remembe exactly what it was.

what would it take to make this happen?  What if we were to have all the major tenants on public square on board with the idea? Key/Forest City/etc... Circulate a petition?  Wouldn't ODOT be more inclined to listen then?

 

It becomes increasingly logical, the more I think about this.  Why not have a pseudo forest, in the "forest city", on our trademark public property, which is at the footstep of the Forest City Enterprises offices....

 

and what if the major tennants are the people you're fighting... :roll:

^Seriously?  Ugh. 

 

I know ODOT and the Federal DOT can make it complicated, but really, if the city was squarely behind it, I'm sure it could happen.  Superior won't be closed, it will just have a really wide median there for a stretch ;)

I know ODOT and the Federal DOT can make it complicated, but really, if the city was squarely behind it, I'm sure it could happen.  Superior won't be closed, it will just have a really wide median there for a stretch ;)

 

"Squarely behind it" Nice.

Throughout the Public Square area left turns are prohibited everywhere you look.  That is annoying as hell, confusing to folks not familiar with downtown, and requires cars/buses to sit at more intersections than really necessary.  Superior is really just a 1-lane road already (the other is bus-only) and Ontario has the majority of traffic volume.  Rerouting the traffic from Ontario around a circular pattern is where the issues come in.  Squeezing 3-4 lanes that can handle modern trucks and RTA buses to circle around the outside of the square is a geometric nightmare at best.

 

This is what some traffic engineers (they are not all evil, but many are  :wink: ) will tell you: To re-route a portion of this traffic from the I-90 vicinity to the St. Clair/Lakeside vicinity means taking E. 9th (already over capacity) or would put a lot more traffic on Huron/W9th and Prospect/W6th and the problem with shifting traffic there is that those intersections are dysfunctional already.  So what the city needs is an overhaul of their mid 20th century traffic control systems to a modern centralized, computerized system to improve efficiency.  But the traffic cops always ignore the signals (and pedestrians) and do whatever the hell they feel like anyway.

 

 

Since I am a pedestrian at the square more often than a driver, it'd be awesome to see the square opened up, but crossing to it would SUCK.  Unless it is a 4-way intersection, drivers simply don't pay attention or don't care to stop at red lights.  Observe E. 9th and Vincent or Superior at the Arcade or Superior at W. 3rd.  There are lights and crosswalks, but cars go flying through them on red all the time because drivers are in a rush, or more likely just morons.  There are so many pedestrians on the square that it'd be dangerous.

 

Solution: Divide the square in 2, an east rectangle and a west rectangle.  Leave Ontario to bisect only the north and south ends of the square itself.  Divert the through-movement Superior traffic around the square.  Left/right turning Superior traffic already goes around the outside anyway.  Ped crossings at the middle of the square would probably not be allowed (because to many ioiot drivers don't like to stop for crosswalks not at intersections). 

 

 

 

This thread is more about theories, comparisons and preferences than about actual an project. Thus it probably belongs in City Discussion, rather than Northeast Ohio Projects & Construction.

I've said it before, just set it up like shaker square or close all interior streets and make all go counter clockwise around the square.

 

MayDay, my little muffin, could you whip up two graphics??  :wink:

Drivers in Cleveland can't seem to handle traffic circles.  (See W 14th/Quigley).   I'd vote for just closing the intersections.  Perhaps the streets (East Roadway/Frankfurt/Rockwell) would be a little narrow...

 

what about the circles on the east side, 3 of which on gates mills blvd (at shaker & brainard, lander & fairmount, and som ctr), and chagrin & lander.  i feel like these are easily navigable, except that my mom always freaks out while driving thru.  ...so maybe not?