If they were streetcars, would you be complaining?

 

Yes.

 

Oh that's right, the only transit you think should be going "through" Public Square is a subway.

 

No not the only way, but I can't understand the resistance to an obvious, easy ROW route under the Detroit-Superior bridge directly into an extant, unused rail station. Seems like a no-brainer to me... Admittedly through routing through the also-existing Huron subway would be more difficult and expenses, but a more ambitious city would at least look at it, especially as fast as downtown is growning and becoming more dense at its center...

 

...btw for ths record, I've also advocated the much cheaper alternative of routing many buses along Prospect to a Tower City terminal directly over the Rapids... Creativity is needed but, again, deaf ears..it's through the Square of nothing for most I guess.

What's the added travel time and thus the added operating cost of the Prospect or other alternatives? Since running buses around the perimeter of Public Square adds at least $1.5 million per year, what cost might rerouting so many buses over to Prospect involve?

Public Square is desolate most of the time.

 

Uh, no. I understand your frustrations but misleading people about Public Square doesn't help.

What's the added travel time and thus the added operating cost of the Prospect or other alternatives? Since running buses around the perimeter of Public Square adds at least $1.5 million per year, what cost might rerouting so many buses over to Prospect involve?

 

Rerouting to Prospect also takes buses significantly farther away from all the destinations in the northern half of Downtown, unless you add a messy left turn onto East 9th to the route.

 

That said, especially if the mayor gets his way with Public Square, I'd welcome some comprehensive rethinking of downtown's entire road network. The combo of huge public rights of way, terrible bike routes, and choked bus traffic is pretty ridiculous.

Uh, no. I understand your frustrations but misleading people about Public Square doesn't help.

 

Misleading? Sorry to hear that the truth hurts you. The ice rink was used on weekends during the holidays. But every time I walk across the square, it is empty. Devoid. Lifeless. Friends of mine cross it twice every day between the Rapid station and work near Erieview and by the malls. They all say there's never anyone using it.

 

I know there used to be a webcam pointed at the square. I looked for it but couldn't find it. Anyone have the link? Or was it deactivated?

What's the added travel time and thus the added operating cost of the Prospect or other alternatives? Since running buses around the perimeter of Public Square adds at least $1.5 million per year, what cost might rerouting so many buses over to Prospect involve?

 

Obviously I don't know, but it's an important question that needs to be researched... I do know that, in terms of connectivity with the Rapid, the Prospect 'terminal' location trumps, oops hate that word,... it beats central Public Square in terms of moving commuters from bus-to-trains and vice versa.  Plus that section of Prospect is very lightly trafficked car-wise and would be ideal for buses.  There are entrances to the train terminal on both sides of the street.

I do like Prospect as a bus terminal site because it's right above the rail station. But it involves buses making lots of left turns (including that hairpin turn at Superior) that can increase trip times and costs while reducing pedestrian safety.

What's the added travel time and thus the added operating cost of the Prospect or other alternatives? Since running buses around the perimeter of Public Square adds at least $1.5 million per year, what cost might rerouting so many buses over to Prospect involve?

 

Rerouting to Prospect also takes buses significantly farther away from all the destinations in the northern half of Downtown, unless you add a messy left turn onto East 9th to the route.

 

That said, especially if the mayor gets his way with Public Square, I'd welcome some comprehensive rethinking of downtown's entire road network. The combo of huge public rights of way, terrible bike routes, and choked bus traffic is pretty ridiculous.

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'northern half of downtown.'  Downtown kind of diamond shaped; a square sitting on its side.  That means buses coming in from the West Side to W. 6th would be just as accessible to the WHD as they are now and the WHD is a source of current and future development.  The area north of Superior east of the Square is, per Dan Burnham's 115-year-old Group Plan, made of up largely of lower density governmental office space with large portions devoted to convention center space (and now hotels), which is only used on a part-time basis.  The clear bulk of office, retail and entertainment activity is, and always has been, out the Euclid-Prospect corridor.  Superior has a number of office buildings, but it's reasonably close although it bends away to the NE.

 

Point being, through-routing buses along W. 6 and Prospect still puts a lot of commuters close to most downtown destinations, and it would still be a short walk from large office buildings like Key and the Old Sohio/BP/Huntington/whatever the hell they call it now Building on Public Square.

 

But you also dismiss the free trolleys.  Wasn't their purpose to quickly circulate commuters and visitors to all sectors of downtown? 

 

And yes I'm going to raise those poisonous dirty words: the RTA Waterfront Line... If you bring in commuters to directly over the Rapid station, the ease of merely walking downstairs for trains directly to FEB (where office development is growing) and North Point/North Coast Erieview would be a snap.

^I was referring to everything north of Superior, east of the WHD, which includes tens of thousands of employees. Clearly, whether buses are on Superior or Prospect, low wage workers at, say, the Westin will keep riding, because they have no other choice. But adding a quarter mile walk wastes 10 more minutes of their day and is a good way to get middle income workers in Erieview or City Hall to start driving, if they haven't already. You can keep talking up the WFL, but very few workers seems to find it as useful as you think they should, and ultimately it's their votes that count.

 

For reference, here's a map showing approximate employment density downtown (using 2014 LEHD, rendered using the onthemap website). Note how much more central Superior is than Prospect to many significant employment clusters:

 

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^OK, I get the general concept of LEHD but I'm not entirely certain what that map depicts.  If it's sheer job destinations, I tend to question it.  For example, I don't see how the area bounded by Ontario, Rockwell, Lakeside and E. 6th could be a bright blue high employment destination area since, aside from the Key Tower complex in the lower SW corner (which is an easy walk from Prospect btw), the bulk of this area is taken up by the Huntington Convention Center, which most of the time is 3/4s to totally empty and, even when populated, it's with out-of-town visitors as opposed to Clevelanders going to jobs.

 

Also, I get that you don't like the Waterfront Line, even though you're not honestly factoring in my scenario of dropping riders directly down into the Rapid from the street above.  You're also not consider the recent growth, and potentially greater job growth, in/around FEB directly along the WFL.

Busy day here in Cleveland Parking Square: https://t.co/1dZNooUY1d

KJP, sorry but I'm gonna directly call you out as well as the others who say that public square is desolate...I live on public square. It is far from desolate. You pull photos from 10 degree January days to use as reference but that is so biased it's not even funny. It's been packed. People loved the lights, love the skating rink, love the Cafè. You jus do not live downtown so I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. For he record, I want buses to be able to go through the square, but I'm just upset at the negativity on this site as of late. This isn't Cleveland.com people. What the hell is going on here?!

Busy day here in Cleveland Parking Square: https://t.co/1dZNooUY1d

 

Can someone explain how/why these vehicles are parked inside Public Square?  It appears counter productive for the argument vehicles are unsafe and can cause terrorism.  I do agree the park is more active than just one day's view in January but I also find any large planned event at Public Square ,such as Winterfest tree lighting, perm is would be pulled to have Superior Ave. closed.  I also believe a compromise could be agreed upon where Superior Ave is open weekdays and closed on weekends when most families and events could be planned.

 

I also wonder if the decorative pavement continuing thru Superior Ave was removed and it was clear there were 2 distinct areas for pedestrians to use would people still have difficulty understanding Superior as less of a safety risk and chance for terrorist activity.

I agree that with some change of the decorative pavement, added signage and a small fence or hedge on one side of the water park, the safety concerns could be partly alleviated.  More plants, grass and shrubs could go a long way to make the square appear more green.  We need to remember that buses are green and part of vibrant urban life.

Busy day here in Cleveland Parking Square: https://t.co/1dZNooUY1d

 

Can someone explain how/why these vehicles are parked inside Public Square?  It appears counter productive for the argument vehicles are unsafe and can cause terrorism.  I do agree the park is more active than just one day's view in January but I also find any large planned event at Public Square ,such as Winterfest tree lighting, perm is would be pulled to have Superior Ave. closed.  I also believe a compromise could be agreed upon where Superior Ave is open weekdays and closed on weekends when most families and events could be planned.

 

I also wonder if the decorative pavement continuing thru Superior Ave was removed and it was clear there were 2 distinct areas for pedestrians to use would people still have difficulty understanding Superior as less of a safety risk and chance for terrorist activity.

 

Mayor Jackson's terrorism slant is complete BS.  If I wanted to run over people with a truck on Public Square, there's a perfectly good spot to do it by driving a truck northbound on Ontario and staying straight!    Is he going to put in jersey barriers around the entire perimeter?  The guy is a complete moron.

The proximity of the pool/rink to the road was clear from the first blueprint.  This is an odd time to take issue with it.  It's starting to sound like Jackson & pals never liked the design and intended all along to spring this change on us after the fact.  Unfortunately for everyone, that was a very stupid plan.

KJP, sorry but I'm gonna directly call you out as well as the others who say that public square is desolate...I live on public square. It is far from desolate. You pull photos from 10 degree January days to use as reference but that is so biased it's not even funny. It's been packed. People loved the lights, love the skating rink, love the Cafè. You jus do not live downtown so I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. For he record, I want buses to be able to go through the square, but I'm just upset at the negativity on this site as of late. This isn't Cleveland.com people. What the hell is going on here?!

 

We have a low threshold in this city for what constitutes "busy." And if your view had the north half of the square as your "front yard" rather than the busier southern half, you might feel differently.

 

Opinions aside, I think we can agree that even on 10 degree days, the transit riders will keep the square populated.

If adding life to public square is people's concern, the thousands of boardings  and connections would add life to public square. 40,000 connections are made in public square's vicinity, The bulk during working, business hours. This is facilitated by one bus every minute or so, like a steady drum beat moving people in and out of the city's weighted center. Or it could be. Right now it's down really inefficiently particular during rush hour with the congested roundabout traffic pattern.

 

From where we're at now, where the space is pretty all-and-alll but under-utilized, I imagine that should be viewed favorably? That's daily traffic , thousands of workers and students getting where they need to go, which is GOOD.

 

C.1975

That's the first picture in the Cleveland Policy Planning Report which led to the creation of RTA. Now the city actively sabotages its transit for obtuse reasons, it's sad.

 

 

 

KJP, sorry but I'm gonna directly call you out as well as the others who say that public square is desolate...I live on public square. It is far from desolate. You pull photos from 10 degree January days to use as reference but that is so biased it's not even funny. It's been packed. People loved the lights, love the skating rink, love the Cafè. You jus do not live downtown so I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. For he record, I want buses to be able to go through the square, but I'm just upset at the negativity on this site as of late. This isn't Cleveland.com people. What the hell is going on here?!

 

We have a low threshold in this city for what constitutes "busy." And if your view had the north half of the square as your "front yard" rather than the busier southern half, you might feel differently.

 

Opinions aside, I think we can agree that even on 10 degree days, the transit riders will keep the square populated.

 

I agree on both points here. I will give you that the North side is definitely less busy than the South Side. And yes, busy to Clevelanders is different than busy to much larger cities. But we need to encourage more visitors to continue to come to the square, and transit is a huge component of that. let the buses through!

Uh, no. I understand your frustrations but misleading people about Public Square doesn't help.

 

Misleading? Sorry to hear that the truth hurts you. The ice rink was used on weekends during the holidays. But every time I walk across the square, it is empty. Devoid. Lifeless. Friends of mine cross it twice every day between the Rapid station and work near Erieview and by the malls. They all say there's never anyone using it.

 

If you are considering when it has been some of the coldest temperatures of the year, sure. I just came from upstate New York where I was outside in 5F temperatures and had entire parks to myself. Your point? You are misleading.

 

Meanwhile, I've been through the Square many times and have seen plenty of busy families and children using the ice skating rink. There. Just refuted your argument.

I don't think any change i.e. removal of decorative pavement needs to be made out of safety concerns. It is my experience that everyone still treats Superior for what it is, a street. Back in the warmer days when I would ride my bike through the square twice every day I noticed that the people crossing through the middle of Superior would always look both ways, even though the road was blocked off. I never saw kids running out into the street. In fact if my memory serves me, there is a lip around the splash zone so you wouldn't be running accross a flush surface right into the street.

 

I dont see any need to spend more money on this.

 

I also walk to and cut through the square. It has become hard to cross the perimeter with the buses, especially the large articulating buses trying to make all these turns now. It definitely takes much longer to actually get into Public Square.

If you are considering when it has been some of the coldest temperatures of the year, sure. I just came from upstate New York where I was outside in 5F temperatures and had entire parks to myself. Your point? You are misleading.

 

Meanwhile, I've been through the Square many times and have seen plenty of busy families and children using the ice skating rink. There. Just refuted your argument.

 

LOL

KJP with regard to offering a quality decongestant mechanism for Public Square, I'm curious as to why you seem to poo-poo to the Detroit-Superior bridge rapid-to-TC through proposal?  It was, after all, your quality maps on the fantasy-oriented rail lines of the future thread that I even got the idea.  Now, after the temporary relocation of westbound trains due to the Track 8 reconstruction at Tower City, I see that the old Shaker station is extant with a platform and 2 working tracks and could connect directly to the bridge, going west, and eventually through the Huron Tunnel-portal to the East.  This connection seems relatively easy and makes too much sense and could literally take hundreds of buses off the Square, provide a faster, direct off-street connection to the square and expand rapid transit services so that incoming/outgoing passengers have direct rail connections to downtown and other, newer parts of the city (like say Hingetown where all the furious multi-unit growth is happening in Ohio City).

 

Isn't this what we should be striving for here?  We always believe it can't happen here while other cities build such projects?  I know it's Cleveland (and Ohio) and it's not likely to happen over night, but I still think raising the possibility and putting it forward doesn't help, even to a seemingly dysfunctional city where, literally, the light rail division may shut down soon because of cheapness, incompetence and poor planning...

 

Why is this pie-in-the-sky, especially when you have people running around talking about realistically building cable-car gondolas all over downtown? ... Your thoughts?

It is this same "us versus them" argument that gets pro-transit and pro-automobile advocates nowhere. There is simply no room for compromise for some.

Because we'd like to see a little bit of transportation subsidies go to transit so that the market share of cars falls from 90 percent to 80 percent? Is that the all-or-nothing philosophy you mean?

I don't think any change i.e. removal of decorative pavement needs to be made out of safety concerns. It is my experience that everyone still treats Superior for what it is, a street. Back in the warmer days when I would ride my bike through the square twice every day I noticed that the people crossing through the middle of Superior would always look both ways, even though the road was blocked off. I never saw kids running out into the street. In fact if my memory serves me, there is a lip around the splash zone so you wouldn't be running accross a flush surface right into the street.

 

I dont see any need to spend more money on this.

 

I also walk to and cut through the square. It has become hard to cross the perimeter with the buses, especially the large articulating buses trying to make all these turns now. It definitely takes much longer to actually get into Public Square.

 

Why not just add decorative fencing along Superior so the throngs of post-millenial 5-somethings don't wander into traffic.  Anywhere else in the world where their are much more crowded pedestrian situations, this is what a city does.    Picadilly, Times Square, and even lesser intersections like Damen/Milwaukee in Chicago?

Guess KJP doesn't want to answer my question.

Did anyone observe traffic consultants on Public Square today?  I believe it was the first of three days for the traffic study. 

Guess KJP doesn't want to answer my question.

 

Do I have to repeat my suport for light rail under the Detroit-Superior  bridge? But that and so many other productive transit ideas won't replace buses, nor should they. Even if you think it should replace buses, no rail project is going to happen when Cleveland's political leaders are, at best, ignoring the erosion of public transit funding and at best actively trying to sabotage transit because they seem to think that Cleveland's downtown will be the first one in history to succeed with transit de-emphasized. As for gondolas, I can't speak for their backers. Maybe our aloof business community prefers them so they don't have to rub elbows with the rest of us little people milling about below as we wait for broken trains and look for buses delayed by detouring around the newest public transitway-turned-valet parking zone for another corporate pat-on-the-back event.

Guess KJP doesn't want to answer my question.

 

Do I have to repeat my suport for light rail under the Detroit-Superior  bridge? But that and so many other productive transit ideas won't replace buses, nor should they. Even if you think it should replace buses, no rail project is going to happen when Cleveland's political leaders are, at best, ignoring the erosion of public transit funding and at best actively trying to sabotage transit because they seem to think that Cleveland's downtown will be the first one in history to succeed with transit de-emphasized. As for gondolas, I can't speak for their backers. Maybe our aloof business community prefers them so they don't have to rub elbows with the rest of us little people milling about below as we wait for broken trains and look for buses delayed by detouring around the newest public transitway-turned-valet parking zone for another corporate pat-on-the-back event.

 

I wish the idea was put out on the table for public view.  To me, it makes too much sense to ignore or just kick it around as some UO fantasy because, in other cities, it would be discussed, at least.  I don't like being afraid to put good, workable ideas like this out there just because we (rightfully) believe the current leadership can't see past yesterday as those leaders can be replaced.

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/08/the_public_square_debate_rtas.html

 

This is a great read to go back in time and see what was discussed about RTA and Public Square.  Quite the different view as of today

Today wasn't a cold, wet day. Yet Public Square looked like this...

 

This is what both sides of #CLE Public Square look like. What's the reason transit is banned again? #transitbelongs #InTheSquare https://t.co/f1AT7hIL5g

Feds grant RTA a 30-day extension on $12 million repayment

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/feds_grant_rta_a_30-day_extens.html

 

New deadline is Feb. 21

 

From the FTA's letter to GCRTA & City:

 

"Today wasn't a cold, wet day. Yet Public Square looked like this..."

 

??

While it is great to see this turnout on Public Square I have a couple of observations from this photo. Why are their two vehicles parked inside the southern section behind the cafe?  Secondly, why couldn't we keep Superior open when protests/rallies/special programming is not planned?  All these events are known prior and with removable bollards blocking the ends, there is no reason transit should be banned.  This is not a typical day on Public Square. I also feel these events should be moved to The Malls.  The space is larger and doesn't involve blocking of roadways.  It appears we have forgotten about that location.

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2017/01/clevelands_year_of_vibrant_gre.html#incart_river_home

 

For years I've used the made-up term "Boulevard Vibrant Greenspace" to represent a particular line of thinking in urban development.  The City of Cleveland has now unironically stolen my line.

 

Been working downtown recently and my twice daily observation is that the square is completely empty most of the time.  It can feel downright creepy after dark.  It was never like that before, it used to see 24/7 activity.

You had the bus stops that added pedestrians into the Square, but there was also a lot of homeless and vagrants, especially at night. I wasn't exactly thrilled being in the Square after dark before and, partially due to improved lighting and aesthetics, it isn't too bad now.

"Today wasn't a cold, wet day. Yet Public Square looked like this..."

 

??

 

You're funny. That's yesterday's women's protest. Scheduled special events like this were to be accommodated by closing the square under the agreement between RTA the city and others.

 

I was on Public Square on Friday afternoon when it started getting warm and there was nobody there.

Thanks to the warm weather today, Public Square is really taking off! #AlternativeFacts

^There are more people on Public Square than anyplace else on planet earth. Period!  #alternativefacts

There were more women marching in the Cleveland march than anyone who has ever marched anywhere, ever, for any reason. period! #alternativefacts

I agree with ken.  Working downtown, I haven't seen so much pedestrian activity on the square that it couldn't safely accommodate buses.  the volume of buses going around the square actually seems more dangerous to me. 

There were more women marching in the Cleveland march than anyone who has ever marched anywhere, ever, for any reason. period! #alternativefacts

 

the square was designed to close the bus lanes for large events like Saturday's march. so individual instances like that don't really sway the argument one way or the other.

Are the black fabric canopies a permanent addition to Rebol? 

How popular (or not) has the rink been?

How popular (or not) has the rink been?

 

Depends who you ask. I see people using it most times that I go by there. Other people say it's "always" empty, which just isn't true.

During the summer Public Square was very popular even in the evenings.  Obviously you are going to have less people during the winter, but I generally can see people throughout the days that are nicer skating.  I feel like the pictures posted of a "always" ghost-town public square are a little manipulated...

It's "alternative facts."

 

I walked by the Square Friday evening and there were at least 20 on the ice and the Square had a fair amount of people that were not transients.

 

Back in late January, there was an ice carving that was packed. College ID Nights prove to be fairly popular, as well as special programming, like Winterfest (during which the Square was packed with over 1,000 people).

 

--

 

The Square itself will never be fully packed with people because it's not large, doesn't have a lot of amenities, and because of its location. Much like Fountain Square, it's success depends upon its programming. It's use was jumpstarted by near-daily programming that was overseen by 3CDC, with a stage occupying some space on the Square for bands that were there 3 or 4 nights a week. Sometimes, the large-scale screens showed baseball games, drawing in some crowds. And many nights early on, the Square was pretty empty but you rarely see an empty Square these days. Continued investment in programming and security has provided a Square that is activated much of the day and late evening - sometimes well into the night.

 

Some people still complain about Fountain Square in downtown Cincinnati, especially after the fountain was moved further back from the roadway and the hardscape redone about a decade ago. You'll never win over some people but nor is that the objective. Over time, more events will be programmed into Public Square and it will become more useful and more used by a growing base of citizens who recognize it as a park, not as a cut-through or homeless camp or bus shelter.

You can also throw in the fact that potentially hundreds of people will be living around the square in a few years... The Standard Building, 75 Public Square, Terminal Tower, and the May Company building are all being or planned to become residential...

I agree that programing will make or break this from a visitor perspective.  How much programming are we ever likely to see in January?  But buses are just as necessary as ever, if not moreso, during the winter.  Winter didn't used to keep people away from the square, it was always busy.  I know... busy with them.  But still.