Have to say I've allways liked the four quadrant layout yet "Pete' proposing an east/west rectangular layout is very intriguing. The argument 'Pete' made concerning traffic flow seems very sound as well. Now that's an idea I would like to see in renderings to evaluate its' potential for improvement to the square.

 

Welcome to the forum Pete from someone as new as you are.

Drivers in Cleveland can't seem to handle traffic circles.  (See W 14th/Quigley).  I'd vote for just closing the intersections.  Perhaps the streets (East Roadway/Frankfurt/Rockwell) would be a little narrow...

 

what about the circles on the east side, 3 of which on gates mills blvd (at shaker & brainard, lander & fairmount, and som ctr), and chagrin & lander.  i feel like these are easily navigable, except that my mom always freaks out while driving thru.  ...so maybe not?

 

I wouldn't even know where to find the figures, but I'm willing to bet the volume of Ontario is about 25X that of those other intersections. And fairmount  circle isn't even a real traffic circle....

Have to say I've allways liked the four quadrant layout...

 

Out of curiosity, what do you like about the current four-quadrant lay-out?  I know many are resistant to removing the interior streets becauuse of traffic concerns, but do you like the current layout for other reasons too?

As far as maintaining traffic flow AND having a nice park area, I really like the DC approach (although it would be WAY too expensive I'm sure) of having the inner lanes of one road (probably Ontario) dip under the entire intersection, and the outer lanes enter the square. This removes a lot of traffic from the square (and lets it flow through), which would make it not as big of a deal to cut the other road off at the outer sides of the square. So you end up with no roads cutting through the square AND less congestion on the sides of the square (otherwise people might feel trapped inside of a rat race if the traffic is too heavy on the sides of the square).

Today I couldn't stop myself from taking an extended lunch and walking all over downtown. This is one epic sunny day and it's great seeing everyone outside, it's a completely different city since winter left.

 

Anyhow, was wondering about the Standard building behind the church on Public Square. While I don't think it reaches eyesore status, its vast beige windowless frontage toward the Square definitely presents an aesthetic challenge.

 

Anyone know if there is any plan to open the otherwise fantastic Standard building with some windows on that side. It faces south and you would think that would vastly improve offices there by letting some light/view inside.

Today I couldn't stop myself from taking an extended lunch and walking all over downtown. This is one epic sunny day and it's great seeing everyone outside, it's a completely different city since winter left.

 

Anyhow, was wondering about the Standard building behind the church on Public Square. While I don't think it reaches eyesore status, its vast beige windowless frontage toward the Square definitely presents an aesthetic challenge.

 

Anyone know if there is any plan to open the otherwise fantastic Standard building with some windows on that side. It faces south and you would think that would vastly improve offices there by letting some light/view inside.

 

Is that the building due north of the old stone church? If so, then it sure was a dumb mistake not to put in windows. Did they think that the ol church was going to be knocked down and redeveloped?

Yes. The Standard Building was built in the 1920s when nothing was sacred or regulated! It was assumed that 19th century churches (or anything old) needed to be replaced.

 

There are no plans to open up the south side of the Standard Building, and I've never heard of any from the past. There has been talk of painting or hanging murals on the south side of the building. But now the question is, unless a huge advertisement is put there, how do you afford painting or hanging something tasteful above and behind a classic church?

Hmm, how about WE ARE ALL WITNESSES.

 

Seriously though, that's a glaring example of bad planning. That space is even too big for a giant banner of Josef Stalin.

 

I'm wondering what kind of expense it would be to cut out windows on a building of that scale.

 

 

 

But now the question is, unless a huge advertisement is put there, how do you afford painting or hanging something tasteful above and behind a classic church?

how bout a giant mural of whales swimming a la the CPP station along the shoreway?

Yes. The Standard Building was built in the 1920s when nothing was sacred or regulated! It was assumed that 19th century churches (or anything old) needed to be replaced.

 

There are no plans to open up the south side of the Standard Building, and I've never heard of any from the past. There has been talk of painting or hanging murals on the south side of the building. But now the question is, unless a huge advertisement is put there, how do you afford painting or hanging something tasteful above and behind a classic church?

 

first thought, are those the elevator banks against those? Engineering could have been a factor too

 

how bout a giant mural of whales swimming a la the CPP station along the shoreway?

 

Nothing against you, but hell no. Wyland is shameless self promoter, those are nothing but giant advertisements for his work and gallery. When a building owner in Detroit tried to cover one up with an advertisement for the 2005 All Star Game, Wyland chimed in and threatened to sue claiming "historic significance" of his mural. Funny thing is, that the building it was on predated his sh!t by about 55 years.

 

[/rant]

^Wyland = Thomas Kinkade plus whales = *hork*

my whales comment was in jest!

^Try one of these next time:  :-D 8-) :lol: :-P :roll: :wink: :wink2: :yap: :drunk: :laugh: :behind: :weird: :bang:

Bah, sarcasm detection should be higher.  I hate smileys. :)

 

How about a big UrbanOhio logo on the building, maybe with a picture of MayDay or Maleficient (or both).

 

I still stand by my idea of cutting off Superior and having Ontario go under the intersection.

"How about a big UrbanOhio logo on the building, maybe with a picture of MayDay or Maleficient (or both)."

 

I *absolutely* approve!!!!!

 

given the location, how bout a reproduction of touchdown jesus in south bend? :clap:

You mean Monroe?

how bout a giant mural of whales swimming a la the CPP station along the shoreway?

 

I'd prefer an image of Superman for a while...so visitors and locals are aware of the local rots...damn that'd be cool.

 

In all honesty though, I think the biggest and quickest (and not too expensive) improvement to Public Square would be to pave the road portions of the square in BRICK.  It seriously would create an amazing sense of place and beauty, and probably spur more improvements.

Why not. There used to be a huge mural of Batman and Robin scaling the eastern side of Halle's. I used to look at it from my dentist's window in the Hanna building. That was 20 years before the Wyndham hotel was built and blocked the blank wall.

 

Of course, we're not going to get a building to block the blank wall of the Standard Building, so why not paint windows on the side of the building???

Since it is such a blank canvas, how about installing  a permanent Luminocity-like display

 

 

Or something more interactive, like Chicago's Crown Fountain (with or without spitting water)

 

 

Or how about a massive LED video monitor, which could rotate art and images... A bit like Tokyo, but with an artistic bent, as opposed to a commercial one.

 

I suppose getting the building's owner to consent and mustering what could be a massive amount of funding might be tricky, but hey, just a thought

 

 

You beat me to the punch with the Luminocity suggestion - the technology exists to refract light and whatever would be projected wouldn't appear distorted. The possibilities for that would be amazing and endless.

 

All I ask is that something classy be done. Remember, it has to mesh well with a 155-year-old lady of a church right in front of it!

I think the best option would be a windows and balcony addition just like with the 8 E. Broad tower down in Columbus:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2925.90.html

^Wyland = Thomas Kinkade plus whales = *hork*

 

HAHA, I HATE seeing these murals all over.  I thoroughly enjoyed watching Milwaukee's get smashed into a million pieces:

 

The architecture in public is awesome, but its not very people friendly.  Most people there are generally waiting for a bus, and it's so isolated by traffic it doesn't have that fun atmosphere that Jackson Square has.  I love the area for its architecture and central location near Tower city and other prominent buildings, but I rarely sit down and enjoy the square itself.

Yeah, I really wish they made it nicer and less homeless/panhandler friendly.  I don't really know how the city could go about doing it though

^jamjeff hit the nail on the head a while back...

 

As far as maintaining traffic flow AND having a nice park area, I really like the DC approach (although it would be WAY too expensive I'm sure) of having the inner lanes of one road (probably Ontario) dip under the entire intersection, and the outer lanes enter the square. This removes a lot of traffic from the square (and lets it flow through), which would make it not as big of a deal to cut the other road off at the outer sides of the square. So you end up with no roads cutting through the square AND less congestion on the sides of the square (otherwise people might feel trapped inside of a rat race if the traffic is too heavy on the sides of the square).

I think there's a problem with public spaces in general in downtown Cleveland. I just don't think that people see them as destinations so much because there's still a very anti-urban mentality. A lot of people don't see the value of public spaces because they get their asses in their cars and drive from place to place rather than fully embracing urbanity. A lot of it is suburbanites wanting a flash-in-the-pan kind of urban experience, rather than actually committing to the lifestyle. Once we get that, I think the city and its public spaces would be transformed because it wouldn't so much be the responsibility of the government; the RESIDENTS would actually begin to care because they're devoted to the neighborhood.

Ummm....that's sort of like people who drive thru neighborhoods and make assesments.

Ummm....that's sort of like people who drive thru neighborhoods and make assesments.

 

I hope that you're not talking about me. Because I would agree with you.

Perhaps if they made the fountains work, the square wouldn't look so dead.  Seeing the ruins of a fountain in front of key bank tower is almost as sad as seeing people sleeping on the benches there.  Are we so poor we can't shoot water into the air?  Fix that thing.  Little aesthetic issues add up.  We don't want our front yard to scream out "disrepair." 

That fountain is embarrassing.

I'm not sure what's more embarrassing - the fountain not working at all, or the fountain being used as a bathtub by the homeless when it was working. :-\

They have to bathe somewhere.

If this was Cinci we could get Proctor & Gamble to sponsor putting some Old Spice Body Wash in the fountains and solve two issues at once.

Two things:

 

1) It should not be the bus hub; busses just look too old and dirty for such a beautiful area.  Move the busses to one of the god awful parking lots bw public square and WHD.  That is still a short walk to the rapid.

 

2) Close the road immediately north of the terminal tower and only allow the EC to use it.

 

Kudos to those advocating more activities.  When I was living in Milan, there would be a big event almost weekly.  Maybe an event once a month or something.

We are really short on events and fesitvals here.  I think downtown needs at least a couple more during the warmer months.  Ingenuity is a cool concept, but also an expensive one to carry out.  They don't need to be that ambitious. 

We are really short on events and fesitvals here.  I think downtown needs at least a couple more during the warmer months.  Ingenuity is a cool concept, but also an expensive one to carry out.  They don't need to be that ambitious. 

 

WHAT?  :wtf:  :wtf:

^I think what he means is downtown could use some more low key events in addition to big productions like the Ingenuity Festival, the July 4th Cleveland Orchestra playing, etc. 

^I think what he means is downtown could use some more low key events in addition to big productions like the Ingenuity Festival, the July 4th Cleveland Orchestra playing, etc. 

 

I don't mean low key at all.  We need more big productions, and more of them should be adult-oriented rather than family-oriented.  I'm talking about parties that make people look around and say holy crap, before they pass out and have to be carted away. 

 

Some of the neighborhood block parties in Detroit make Ingenuity look like a 5 year old's birthday.  Anybody been to Dally in the Alley?  Fourth Street Fair?  Those work out well because they know what they are (giant knock-down, drag-out parties) and don't muddle things up by straining to be family-oriented.

 

You can't please everybody, and who do we want to attract to Cleveland?  Young adults.  They like to party.  Orchestral events do nothing to counter the perception that Cleveland is boring, square, culturally conservative, etc.  I guess what I'm talking about is recreating the old Flats vibe once in a while.  Since we lost that, downtown sorely lacks unpretentious mass fun.  We need that now more than anything.

 

The first couple Ingenuity fests were getting there, but now they have dialed it back considerably.  Budget is a concern, and they lied so badly about attendence for a couple years that I don't blame sponsors for doubting them now.  Unfortunately, Ingenuity is branded in such a way that it can't be done on the cheap.  What I meant about Ingenuity being too ambitious is not the size of it but the fact that everything about it is expensive due to the "tech" theme.  Large scale downtown fesitvals can be done a lot cheaper.  I think Ingenuity also suffers from trying to be everything to everyone.  I recommend less kids-tent-bubble-magic and more sexy robot girls.

 

A different example would be Comfest in Columbus.  I haven't been there but I understand it actually does a decent job of being everything to everyone.  There's no reason we couldn't do something like that on the mall, something of that scale.  We don't have it and we need it.

 

Public square doesn't work as well for big events because of the streets and the buses and such.  It would be cool if the city could have little mini-fesitvals on one quadrant or two, something like what they do by west side market on saturdays.  It may be possible to close off the square itself temporarily and do a big fesitval there.  Seems like we'd have to get the E/W transit centers up and running before we could do that.

Seems there were many more festivals and party events downtown in the past -- "Parties in the Park", Taste of Cleveland, Rib Burn-Off and the biggest of all was Riverfest in the Flats. Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns.

 

Most if not all of these events that still exist have been moved out of downtown proper which changes the character of the events quite a bit, IMO. I used to attend some of these when they were downtown but no longer since they moved to places like Tower City amphitheatre.

 

Just adding more lunchtime or Thursday/Friday evening concerts on PS would be a nice addition to the programming and fairly easy to do.

Those concerts on the square would be great.  They happen once in a great while but I'd love to see them more regularly.  Is there really a chance that the mall would collapse under a bunch of people?  If so, things are worse off than I thought.

 

Maybe we're just beginning to mourn the Flats.  It looked like the most recent FEB plans involved a sizeable gathering space, so one day we can at least have festivals again down there... if management approves...   

Those concerts on the square would be great.  They happen once in a great while but I'd love to see them more regularly.  Is there really a chance that the mall would collapse under a bunch of people?  If so, things are worse off than I thought.

 

Maybe we're just beginning to mourn the Flats.  It looked like the most recent FEB plans involved a sizeable gathering space, so one day we can at least have festivals again down there... if management approves...   

Seems there were many more festivals and party events downtown in the past -- "Parties in the Park", Taste of Cleveland, Rib Burn-Off and the biggest of all was Riverfest in the Flats. Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns.

 

Where did you hear that?  those things moved because they outgrew the space and sponsorship deals.

 

If you have any facts that "structural" issues played into those concerns please provide a source.

"Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns."

 

 

Untrue, and ridiculous.

I do agree that many of the festivals that are in the horrible Tower City ampitheater should be moved to Public Square/East Fourth/ Prospect Avenue.    Tower City Ampitheater probably turns off more people than it gets in there.  Moving the Burning Riverfest to Nautica was a disaster in my opinion.  Who likes hanging out in a glorified parking lot on a hot summer day.

I'm more inclined to believe events moved because FCE wanted a piece of the action.  Ever tried walking to tower city amphitheater?  It might as well be suspended on a pole 2 miles above downtown.  That's why I'd like to see more festival activity centrally located, like on the square.

"Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns."

 

 

Untrue, and ridiculous.

I do agree that many of the festivals that are in the horrible Tower City ampitheater should be moved to Public Square/East Fourth/ Prospect Avenue.    Tower City Ampitheater probably turns off more people than it gets in there.  Moving the Burning Riverfest to Nautica was a disaster in my opinion.  Who likes hanging out in a glorified parking lot on a hot summer day.

 

Hey, I could have a fuzzy memory but...I worked at the County parking garage during a summer or two in my college days and back then there was parking on mall C and this was also where some of the festivals were held. At some point the parking was ended and Mall C was cordoned off --I thought we were told it was because the weight on mall C was too great. But again, I could be having a faulty memory :|

 

EDIT: OK, maybe my memory isn't as faulty as I thought!

 

From a 2003 PD article on rebuilding the convention center:

 

"Under the Mall, new exhibit halls could be built, with roof structures strong enough to support large crowds on the surface above for a Cleveland Orchestra concert or a Fourth of July celebration. The big steel beams that hold up the Mall today aren't sturdy enough to perform that function."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/convention/more/1044095818166250.html

Seems to me that we could have traffic use the larger square of Prospect/St Clair/E 9th/W 6th and completely cordon off Public Square for a weekend fesitval. 

^The parking was moved off of mall C for strictly urban beautification reasons, I believe.

 

I agree about moving events back to the streets and public spaces of downtown.  The one good thing about the small traffic counts on an Avenue like Prospect on a non-workday is that you could probably close it between Ontario and 9th Street without causing too much gridlock (though RTA buses would have to scramble).

Those concerts on the square would be great.  They happen once in a great while but I'd love to see them more regularly.  Is there really a chance that the mall would collapse under a bunch of people?  If so, things are worse off than I thought.

 

Maybe we're just beginning to mourn the Flats.  It looked like the most recent FEB plans involved a sizeable gathering space, so one day we can at least have festivals again down there... if management approves...   

Seems there were many more festivals and party events downtown in the past -- "Parties in the Park", Taste of Cleveland, Rib Burn-Off and the biggest of all was Riverfest in the Flats. Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns.

 

Where did you hear that?  those things moved because they outgrew the space and sponsorship deals.

 

If you have any facts that "structural" issues played into those concerns please provide a source.

 

Here you go MTS, et. al.

 

http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX/AAI-8095

 

Festivals were indeed moved (at least in part) from the mall due to structural concerns. Now back on topic.

"Some were held on Mall C/B but at some point I think this was stopped due to structural concerns."

 

 

Untrue, and ridiculous.

I do agree that many of the festivals that are in the horrible Tower City ampitheater should be moved to Public Square/East Fourth/ Prospect Avenue.    Tower City Ampitheater probably turns off more people than it gets in there.  Moving the Burning Riverfest to Nautica was a disaster in my opinion.  Who likes hanging out in a glorified parking lot on a hot summer day.

 

Hey, I could have a fuzzy memory but...I worked at the County parking garage during a summer or two in my college days and back then there was parking on mall C and this was also where some of the festivals were held. At some point the parking was ended and Mall C was cordoned off --I thought we were told it was because the weight on mall C was too great. But again, I could be having a faulty memory :|

 

EDIT: OK, maybe my memory isn't as faulty as I thought!

 

From a 2003 PD article on rebuilding the convention center:

 

"Under the Mall, new exhibit halls could be built, with roof structures strong enough to support large crowds on the surface above for a Cleveland Orchestra concert or a Fourth of July celebration. The big steel beams that hold up the Mall today aren't sturdy enough to perform that function."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/convention/more/1044095818166250.html

 

This quote has nothing to with the current state of the center.  Its just saying that a new building would be able to hold large crowds.