I understand CDM's frustration with the discussion.  However, if the "Cincinnati-Dayton Megalopolis" thread is allowed to be twenty pages long, can't we Clevelanders have a torturous discussion about our own arbitrary boundaries?

Seriously, that thread is fifteen pages long.  It's ret@rded.

^That thread is about developments occurring between the two cities, the potential ramifications of a combining of the two citiy's metro areas, sprawl, etc.  There are articles posted, and real discussion going on.  This thread does not have a single article posted, talk about any particular development, and the government isn't discussing combining the Cleveland and Akron MSA's anytime soon (as they are with CSA's in Cincinnati and Dayton).  The two threads are not similar, and this thread really just seems like whining about how to best mask the fact that the Cleveland Metro population is shrinking.

It's kinda odd that Orlando and Daytona beach is a CSA but not Cleveland and Canton. I think the gov just wants more money to goto Florida than Ohio.

^^Ain't that soooo sad.... :-P Sigh....Well, we'll have to focus on the concept of 'less being more'...and 'quality over quantity' and work with what we DO have and achieve more sustainable living and numbers---a logic that few seem to grasp these days in a world where marketing convinces us that cheaper...and more.... and bigger is always better.

It's kinda odd that Orlando and Daytona beach is a CSA but not Cleveland and Canton. I think the gov just wants more money to goto Florida than Ohio.

 

You are so right.  It is all about politics and money.  If NE Ohio had a little more clout in Congress, things might be a little different.

In this corner, people who cite numbers and arbitrary category designations.  In that corner, people who question the rules underlying these designations and their real world consequences.  I'm with the latter group.  Cleveland and Akron's suburbs are clearly integrated in a way that Dayton and Cincinnati's are not.  There should be more than one way to qualify for a lucrative designation.

 

I think what tips the scales in favor of calling the southern one an MSA is that so much of the nicer retail and major industry (employment) is located directly between the two main cities, along with many of the area's smaller cities, while there isn't so much going on economically to the south of Cincy or the north of Dayton, or off to the side of either one.

 

By contrast, employment centers tend to be in the middle or off to the sides in Cleveland and Akron.  The immediate in-between area is a national park, with a chain of residential suburbs connecting the two main cities on either side of it.  Instead of both being in the national park, Canton is south of Akron and Youngstown is east.  None of that makes NEO any less integrated than SWO... it just has a different layout, which isn't favorable to the particular metric that's been chosen.    If NEO did all its future development in Alliance or Ravenna we'd do well under this metric, because then we'd force everyone in four different cities to commute to the area in between.  Let's not do that.  The metric is wrong.       

 

In fairness, this is indeed a silly argument.  But to the extent money rides on these designations, it's not that silly.  I don't know what that extent is.

Edale,

 

Whining...? This has nothing to do with whining or masking population loss. To be honest, I'm a little tired of these discussions always turning into pissing contests.  Yes...this may be a silly argument, but it is weird certain areas surrounding Cuyahoga County are not part of Cleveland's MSA.

 

For whatever reasons, Ohioans (and probably some Kentuckians in the case of posters chiming in from Cincinnati) from south of Mansfield feel the need to belittle anything remotely "Cleveland", especially when it comes to populations pulled in for MSA & CSA data.

 

But the fact remains that more than 50% of the "Ohio" state population lives in less than 20% of the area; Sandusky down to Canton and over to Y-Town.  And people from this area commute all over this area for work, recreation, shopping, etc..  Whether or not anyone wants to admit it or not, the area I just mentioned is a CSA, and Cleveland/Akron is an MSA.  Thousands of people who live in Akron, work in Cleveland, and thousands that live in Cleveland, work in Akron, not to mention suburbs like Hudson, Twinsburg, Macedonia, Brecksville, Bath, etc. where the split on where the shop/work, etc. is near 50/50.

 

I don't care that a designation hasn't been given, probably due to lack of support from the state level (again for obvious reasons), it's irrelevant.  It would be like believing that Iowa is the 4th "Happiest state", while Ohio is the 47th state, it is a subjective, loaded "opinion".

 

As far as population numbers; growth, no growth, etc., I'm not sure who/what to believe.  And I don't need someone from Cincinnati who probably hasn't been here in 10-20 years to tell me that Cleveland's losing population.  All I know is that houses, stores, and restaurants are being built in my Cleveland suburb right now.  Sure, Cleveland has lost tons of blue collar jobs over the past decade, but they've also added thousands of medical and white collar jobs.

^That thread is about developments occurring between the two cities, the potential ramifications of a combining of the two citiy's metro areas, sprawl, etc. There are articles posted, and real discussion going on. This thread does not have a single article posted, talk about any particular development, and the government isn't discussing combining the Cleveland and Akron MSA's anytime soon (as they are with CSA's in Cincinnati and Dayton). The two threads are not similar, and this thread really just seems like whining about how to best mask the fact that the Cleveland Metro population is shrinking.

 

 

Every chance you get Edale.  Every chance you get.  Why don't you take a break for a month or two of hating on Cleveland and throwing little subtle jabs.  Sadly, it just comes across as some kind of weird insecurity.  I wouldn't jump to conclusions, but your record speaks for itself.

Oh lordy. This thread isn't going anywhere useful.

Do I really, really, need to make this clear?  Ah, so it goes...

 

AKRON IS A PART OF CLEVELAND'S METROPOLITAN AREA ALREADY IN THE FORM OF A CSA!!!

 

AKRON IS A PART OF CLEVELAND'S METROPOLITAN AREA ALREADY IN THE FORM OF A CSA!!!

 

AKRON IS A PART OF CLEVELAND'S METROPOLITAN AREA ALREADY IN THE FORM OF A CSA!!!

 

Why you folk are even bringing up Cincinnati-Dayton potentially becoming a CSA SIMILAR TO...

 

AKRON BEING A PART OF CLEVELAND'S METROPOLITAN AREA ALREADY IN THE FORM OF A CSA!!!...

 

...into an arguement about why Akron SHOULDN'T be a part of Cleveland's MSA is beyond my reasoning of common sense.  Don't cry to me about "Oh, well, I know 30% of my workforce come from Bath Township so therefore we're one area."  Cry to the Census and HARD NUMBERS OF COMMUTING.  It isn't about who cries to who in Congress, it's about COMMUTING PATTERNS and WHO GOES TO WORK WHERE.  It SEEMS as if Orlando and Daytona Beach share some sort of economic corridor to justify a CSA.  Much like Chillicothe to Columbus.  Like Ashtabula to Cleveland.  Like Wilmington to Cincinnati.  Like New Haven to New York.  Obviously, Sandusky and Youngstown are not reliant on Cleveland due to the fact that BARELY ANYONE WORKS IN THE CLEVELAND METROPOLITAN STATISTICAL AREA FROM SANDUSKY OR YOUNGSTOWN!!!  Canton is certainly surprising and perhaps will be included in Cleveland-Akron's CSA much like Dayton will eventually be included in Cincinnati's CSA.  But until then, go with what is given.

 

And then I see...

 

I understand CDM's frustration with the discussion.  However, if the "Cincinnati-Dayton Megalopolis" thread is allowed to be twenty pages long, can't we Clevelanders have a torturous discussion about our own arbitrary boundaries?

 

What on earth does a potential CSA merger have to do with Akron's position of being its own MSA versus Cleveland?  Akron is CLEARLY its own MSA much like DAYTON IS ITS OWN MSA, even WITH a potential merger with Cincinnati's CSA.  My God, you folks have gone off the deep end!

 

Then THIS!:

 

In that corner, people who question the rules underlying these designations and their real world consequences.  I'm with the latter group.  Cleveland and Akron's suburbs are clearly integrated in a way that Dayton and Cincinnati's are not.  There should be more than one way to qualify for a lucrative designation.

 

Underling rules?  LIKE COMMUTING PATTERNS?!?!  Last time I checked, it wasn't a congressman or Senator that's like "well, totally, I know only 10% of people in Sandusky commute to Oberlin...but let's stretch the rules a little, ya dig?"  NO!  This isn't some beauty, political contest of who can get the most funds...this is hard numbers of commuting aka PEOPLE GOING TO WORK!!!  Why don't you just write to Sandusky's paper and tell everyone there to start working in Elyria or Crocker Park and *BAM*, Sandusky would be a part of your CSA. 

 

Then THIS:

 

By contrast, employment centers tend to be in the middle or off to the sides in Cleveland and Akron.  The immediate in-between area is a national park, with a chain of residential suburbs connecting the two main cities on either side of it.  Instead of both being in the national park, Canton is south of Akron and Youngstown is east.  None of that makes NEO any less integrated than SWO... it just has a different layout, which isn't favorable to the particular metric that's been chosen.    If NEO did all its future development in Alliance or Ravenna we'd do well under this metric, because then we'd force everyone in four different cities to commute to the area in between.  Let's not do that.  The metric is wrong.     

 

The fact is that Northeast Ohio has four large MSA's: Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, and Canton.  Southwest Ohio has three: Cincinnati, Dayton, and Springfield.  Northeast Ohio has one CSA; Southwest Ohio has none.  If anything, the CSA helps Northeast Ohio's population stats moreso than if they seperated it with MSA's much like the Northeast US.

 

And I don't even know where to begin with that last post.

 

 

 

The fact is this: You don't like the idea of Akron being its own, independent Metropolitan Area (*hint* WHICH IT IS), then cry to the Census about it...or go to the Akron Beacon-Journal, post some jobs that are in downtown Cleveland or Crocker Park, and pray those folks in Cuyahoga Falls love H&M.

And folks, this whole Southern/Northern Ohio insecurity thing needs to stop.  Why people are accusing ME of it is just idiotic.  I'm defending Akron, if anything (as I know how it feels *cough* Dayton *cough* to get unfairly lumped into a discussion about "well, you should be a part of a MSA").

Obviously, Sandusky and Youngstown are not reliant on Cleveland due to the fact that BARELY ANYONE WORKS IN THE CLEVELAND METROPOLITAN STATISTICAL AREA FROM SANDUSKY OR YOUNGSTOWN!!! 

 

Seriously, none of this is that big a deal, so I'll leave most of that alone... but where are your facts coming from?  The proportion of people commuting from Youngstown to Cleveland--daily-- is immense.  "Barely anyone?"  In all caps?  Your contention doesn't jive with any obervable pattern, or rather, the observable patterns don't jive with your contention.  Does the observable percentage reach this or that arbitrary cut-off point?  Only the deciders of the cutoff point can tell us that.  But if your numbers represent to you that "barely anyone" commutes from Youngstown to Cleveland... your numbers are inaccurate. 

My facts come from...

 

www.census.gov

 

If there had been more commuting, then Youngstown would certainly be a part of Cleveland (or Pittsburgh's) CSA.  The fact that Youngstown-Warren-Sharon, PA is an independent economic metropolitan area shows it is not part of anyone's CSA.  And if you want the "rules" of how to become a CSA or MSA, click www.census.gov .  But I thought that would've been, well, already known on a forum about urban issues.

And really, for those who are too lazy to click that link:

 

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/files/00-32997.pdf

And folks, this whole Southern/Northern Ohio insecurity thing needs to stop. Why people are accusing ME of it is just idiotic. I'm defending Akron, if anything (as I know how it feels *cough* Dayton *cough* to get unfairly lumped into a discussion about "well, you should be a part of a MSA").

AND AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING AKRON SHOULD BE PART OF THE CLEVELAND MSA.  I AM SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE ONE MSA CALLED CLEVELAND/AKRON, JUST LIKE DALLAS/FT WORTH, MINNY/ST. PAUL, TAMPA/ST PETERSBURG, etc..  If anything, having Akron included in a larger MSA, should help, not hinder them..

 

As far as the Northern/Southern thing.  What I see is that people pro-Cleveland, for the most part, keep their comments pro-Cleveland, they don't go out of their way to degrade Columbus/Cincinnati.  On the other hand, just look at the number of people on this thread chiming in with anti-Cleveland comments.  I mean I don't even open up Cincy or Columbus threads, knowing that I can't add any meaningful value.

Nobody is questioning what the current policies are, or who sets them.  Rest assured we do all know that.  We're questioning whether those policies are appropriate.  The response we keep getting is a restatement of the policy, its results, and its source.  Straw man.  No matter how many times those questions are answered, they will never become the questions anyone asked.  There's no need to get so angry with us.  Thank you for telling me where your facts came from.  I think they're incorrect, and I think early 2010 is like a great time to tweak census metrics and make them more accurate.

ColDayMAn...I love your effort. I see your points. I don't think anyone was offended by your comments. It still seems weird that some of these places don't meet the requirements. My mom is a nurse at UH and she estimates 25 percent of her coworkers come from either Youngstown or Akron.

And folks, this whole Southern/Northern Ohio insecurity thing needs to stop. Why people are accusing ME of it is just idiotic. I'm defending Akron, if anything (as I know how it feels *cough* Dayton *cough* to get unfairly lumped into a discussion about "well, you should be a part of a MSA").

AND AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING AKRON SHOULD BE PART OF THE CLEVELAND MSA. I AM SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE ONE MSA CALLED CLEVELAND/AKRON, JUST LIKE DALLAS/FT WORTH, MINNY/ST. PAUL, TAMPA/ST PETERSBURG, etc.. If anything, having Akron included in a larger MSA, should help, not hinder them..

 

As far as the Northern/Southern thing. What I see is that people pro-Cleveland, for the most part, keep their comments pro-Cleveland, they don't go out of their way to degrade Columbus/Cincinnati. On the other hand, just look at the number of people on this thread chiming in with anti-Cleveland comments. I mean I don't even open up Cincy or Columbus threads, knowing that I can't add any meaningful value.

 

Can you cut the crap about the whole Cincy/Cleveland bit? It's off-topic and completely infactual.

And folks, this whole Southern/Northern Ohio insecurity thing needs to stop. Why people are accusing ME of it is just idiotic. I'm defending Akron, if anything (as I know how it feels *cough* Dayton *cough* to get unfairly lumped into a discussion about "well, you should be a part of a MSA").

AND AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING AKRON SHOULD BE PART OF THE CLEVELAND MSA. I AM SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE ONE MSA CALLED CLEVELAND/AKRON, JUST LIKE DALLAS/FT WORTH, MINNY/ST. PAUL, TAMPA/ST PETERSBURG, etc.. If anything, having Akron included in a larger MSA, should help, not hinder them..

 

As far as the Northern/Southern thing. What I see is that people pro-Cleveland, for the most part, keep their comments pro-Cleveland, they don't go out of their way to degrade Columbus/Cincinnati. On the other hand, just look at the number of people on this thread chiming in with anti-Cleveland comments. I mean I don't even open up Cincy or Columbus threads, knowing that I can't add any meaningful value.

 

You have got to be joking...or a parody account.

 

Nobody is questioning what the current policies are, or who sets them. Rest assured we do all know that. We're questioning whether those policies are appropriate. The response we keep getting is a restatement of the policy, its results, and its source. Straw man. No matter how many times those questions are answered, they will never become the questions anyone asked. There's no need to get so angry with us. Thank you for telling me where your facts came from. I think they're incorrect, and I think early 2010 is like a great time to tweak census metrics and make them more accurate.

 

Look, it's fine if you believe the Census is wrong or inaccurate or whatever.  I also believe the Census needs a tweaking or two (perhaps go to the UA designations or New England-style Census would work wonders).  That's okay.  No problem with that.

 

The problem is that people can just naturally assume that Akron should be a part of Cleveland's MSA because of "what they see" in their larger city when Akron is blatantly and clearly a separate economic core (with three Fortune 500 companies).  I have a personal problem with that because I experience it in my own area with Dayton and the "stupid" Cincinnati-Dayton thread.  So I can sympathize with Akron and that's why I'm defending it to be its own MSA (which it is already, but apparently it shouldn't be...?).

ColDayMAn...I love your effort. I see your points. I don't think anyone was offended by your comments. It still seems weird that some of these places don't meet the requirements. My mom is a nurse at UH and she estimates 25 percent of her coworkers come from either Youngstown or Akron.

 

Thank you.  I appreciate that.  And yes, cases like Youngstown are interesting because they straddle that zone of two larger CSA's (Cleveland and Pittsburgh) so you're always going to have more of a connection to that than, say, Lima and Fort Wayne.  Another similar "WTF" is probably Toledo and Detroit, where many folks in commute between the two, you always hear about "oh yeah, Charlene's from Sylvania but she commutes to Twelve Oaks everyday!" type of thing so there's some sort of symbiotic relationship between the two but not enough as reality.  Hell,  living back here in Dayton, I have coworkers from all over Columbus make that hour drive here for work and sometimes I think "damn, should Columbus and Dayton merge to get it over with?" LOL.

CDM, just in this thread, you've used the words "stupid", "lazy", "crying", made a comment about "H&M", among others.  What value in conversation do you expect to incite with those comments?

 

The thread started by saying Cleveland can not grow in diameter, it is "water-locked" on one side.  In can sprawl south, and Cleveland to Akron (downtown to downtown) is 39 miles, while 10-15 suburbs between Akron/Cleveland completely overlap.  Meanwhile, Columbus & Cincinnati MSA's are pulling in diameters of 60+ miles.  That pretty much sums it up..

 

I'm just arguing that the "experts" are wrong in this case, probably for some political gain.  Much like many other things that have to do with government in this country; just because an "expert" says something, doesn't ALWAYS mean they're right.

Yes, but if the "experts" have a PDF for you to read and understand, then there really shouldn't be any problems regarding of the "way things are done."  Again, you can argue with the methodolgy of said "experts" (and I disagree with the "experts" as well re: Barstow being a part of Los Angeles) but you can't argue the fact that Akron should be a part of Cleveland's MSA because it has its own economic pull/core.  In cases of Minneapolis/St. Paul or Dallas/Fort Worth, both cities damn near border each other and work symbiotically, much like edge city phenoms Bellevue, Washington or Clayton, Missouri.  Akron stands alone, in that sense but the suburbs between Cleveland and Akron are "confused" so therefore, they get CSA-status.

 

Discussing why Cleveland is landlocked (it isn't; it can go northeast, due east, west, or southwest aka Medina County) is valid but to state that due to the lake, Akron should be a part of Cleveland's MSA so they can include sprawl south to be fair is incorrect.  It isn't Akron's fault the canal and rubber helped it to be a major city within itself at its location.

CDM, just in this thread, you've used the words "stupid", "lazy", "crying", made a comment about "H&M", among others. What value in conversation do you expect to incite with those comments?

 

The same value of comments your endless bringing up Cincinnati or Columbus insecurities bring to the table.

CDM, just in this thread, you've used the words "stupid", "lazy", "crying", made a comment about "H&M", among others. What value in conversation do you expect to incite with those comments?

 

The same value of comments your endless bringing up Cincinnati or Columbus insecurities bring to the table.

So, if I state a fact that Cincinnati pulls in an MSA diameter of 60 miles, and Cleveland/Akron shouldn't be considered one large MSA because they're 39 miles apart, you can counter with lazy, stupid, crying, etc..?  That's how it works on Urbanohio?

Okay kids, time to cool your jets! :-)

*cries*

CDM, just in this thread, you've used the words "stupid", "lazy", "crying", made a comment about "H&M", among others. What value in conversation do you expect to incite with those comments?

 

The same value of comments your endless bringing up Cincinnati or Columbus insecurities bring to the table.

So, if I state a fact that Cincinnati pulls in an MSA diameter of 60 miles, and Cleveland/Akron shouldn't be considered one large MSA because they're 39 miles apart, you can counter with lazy, stupid, crying, etc..? That's how it works on Urbanohio?

 

Don't twist what I said:

 

I said...

And really, for those who are too lazy to click that link: and posted a PDF!!!

 

And then I said

I have a personal problem with that because I experience it in my own area with Dayton and the "stupid" Cincinnati-Dayton thread. ...because somebody else called the thread "stupid," and thus, the ".."

 

I don't twist your words, don't twist mine.  That's NOT how it works on UrbanOhio.

Having looked back at the thread, I agree - believe me, ColDayMan has no qualms about letting someone have it but this isn't one of those cases. Cherrypicking quotes in order to pick a fight is a surefire way to get time off. That said:

 

Without seeing ColDayMan's PDF link, I read the official PDF about how MSA's are determined.  I'll try to put into my own words what I see as being the problem.

 

Lorain County, Cuyahoga County, Lake County, and Summit County are all MSA candidate counties due to the fact that they each have an "urban cluster" or "central city" of over 50,000 (Lorain/Elyria, Cleveland, Mentor, and Akrom, respectively).  Every single one of these counties also has enough commuters to Cuyahoga County to be a candidate for inclusion in Cleveland's MSA (I'll get to how I know this later).  However, we're not done.  We need to examine every other county as if it were its own MSA.  Lorain County's "MSA" would include Lorain County and possibly Cuyahoga County and Medina County (by the 25% commuter rule).  Since Cuyahoga County's MSA also includes Lorain and Medina, Cuyahoga and Lorain (as well as Medina coming along for the ride) may be combined into one MSA).  Lake County could likely be combined with Cuyahoga County and Geauga County.  However, once again, all of these counties also fall within Cuyahoga County's MSA criteria, so the two are merged (that is why it is called the Lorain-Elyria-Cleveland-Mentor MSA).  However, when we get to Akron, the likely counties included in Summit County's MSA would be Medina and Portage.  Portage must not qualify to be part of Cleveland's MSA because if it did then both Summit and Portage would be part of Cleveland's MSA.  This allows Summit County to "stand on its own".  Medina County can't be in two MSA's, so it goes to the county more people commute to (which must be Cuyahoga County).

 

The way I know that Summit County would otherwise qualify to be a part of Cleveland's MSA is that the commuting criteria for a CSA is the same percentage, except that it is only between the two core MSA counties.  So Cuyahoga and Summit meet the criteria.  Portage is the one hanging off Summit that doesn't allow it to be a part of Cleveland.

 

So there's a few things going on here...

 

If Summit County contained just as many people and as much employment, but didn't have an "urban center", it would be a part of Cleveland's MSA.

 

If Portage County stopped meeting the criteria to be in Akron's MSA, Akron would be combined into Cleveland's MSA.

 

Using county borders for MSA's seems kinda backwards.  Macedonia is much more a suburb of Cleveland than Akron, but since it is "south of the border" it has to go to Akron.  As a matter of fact, the way the rules are written up for the MSA, if Summit County included nearly every suburb of Cuyahoga County except for a string of suburbs along the lake, all of those suburbs would be included in Akron's MSA as well.

 

So in short, it's an imperfect system using county boundaries that we probably shouldn't worry all that much about.

If Summit County contained just as many people and as much employment, but didn't have an "urban center", it would be a part of Cleveland's MSA.

 

Bingo, bingo, and bingo.  If Akron wasn't an actual city, then for sure Summit would be Metro Cleveland, without question.

 

Using county borders for MSA's seems kinda backwards.

 

Completely agreed.  And thus, I say we go after the New England-style Census where every township and city is held into a criteria of commuting.

Let me try to get the thread in a little different direction...

 

What are the pro's & con's of having Cleveland's metro area incorporate Akron or other areas?

It looks good on paper.

If anyone's interested, here are the commuting numbers from 2000:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/commuting/index.html#OH

 

To add some numbers to jam40jeff's explanation:

 

Of Cuyahoga county residents who work outside the county, just under 25% work in Summit county.

Of Summit county residents who work outside the county, 53% work in Cuyahoga county.

 

Of Portage county residents who work outside the county, just over 50% work in Summit county, and 15% work in Cuyahoga county.

 

For Portage to be over the 25% mark for workers going to Cuyahoga county, a bit over 7,000 more people would have needed to commute to Cuyahoga county in 2000.

 

How much have the Portage Co. suburbs (Aurora and Streetsboro especially) grown since then, and what will the commuting percentages look like when the census data is released next year?  Could make for an interesting situation.

 

Let me try to get the thread in a little different direction...

 

What are the pro's & con's of having Cleveland's metro area incorporate Akron or other areas?

 

We're bigger in the eyes of the Feds, I would guess translating into more $$.

Does Cleveland's urban area enter Summit county?

Yes, and Portage too.

 

http://ftp2.census.gov/geo/maps/urbanarea/uaoutline/UA2000/ua17668/ua17668_00.pdf

 

You can see at the bottom how close the Akron urbanized area comes to the Cleveland area (probably close to a quarter mile, by my judgement.)  Also, keep in mind that that map is from 2000, so the sprawl may very well have connected the urban areas by now.

Let me try to get the thread in a little different direction...

 

What are the pro's & con's of having Cleveland's metro area incorporate Akron or other areas?

 

I don't think it really makes a difference either way.  I could be wrong (though I don't think I am), but I don't believe that Federal funding is based upon metropolitan area's, it's based upon incorporated areas.  Further, I don't think it hurts us in how we are represented, either.  Ohio is still going to have X amount of Congressmen, based on the state population, regardless of how that population is distributed around.  Now when we're talking about Cincinnati's MSA, which may see a movement of people from Ohio to Kentucky, then it's a potential problem of where those people are living.

If anyone's interested, here are the commuting numbers from 2000:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/commuting/index.html#OH

 

To add some numbers to jam40jeff's explanation:

 

Of Cuyahoga county residents who work outside the county, just under 25% work in Summit county.

Of Summit county residents who work outside the county, 53% work in Cuyahoga county.

 

Of Portage county residents who work outside the county, just over 50% work in Summit county, and 15% work in Cuyahoga county.

 

For Portage to be over the 25% mark for workers going to Cuyahoga county, a bit over 7,000 more people would have needed to commute to Cuyahoga county in 2000.

 

How much have the Portage Co. suburbs (Aurora and Streetsboro especially) grown since then, and what will the commuting percentages look like when the census data is released next year?  Could make for an interesting situation.

 

Especially if you consider that many of the people that have left Cuyahoga County may still have jobs here, but are looking to call another county "home."  And I do believe that some of the fastest growing areas of the region are northern Summit and northern Portage, areas that would certainly be conducive to a commute to a job in Cuyahoga County.

Without seeing ColDayMan's PDF link, I read the official PDF about how MSA's are determined.  I'll try to put into my own words what I see as being the problem.

 

Lorain County, Cuyahoga County, Lake County, and Summit County are all MSA candidate counties due to the fact that they each have an "urban cluster" or "central city" of over 50,000 (Lorain/Elyria, Cleveland, Mentor, and Akrom, respectively).  Every single one of these counties also has enough commuters to Cuyahoga County to be a candidate for inclusion in Cleveland's MSA (I'll get to how I know this later).  However, we're not done.  We need to examine every other county as if it were its own MSA.  Lorain County's "MSA" would include Lorain County and possibly Cuyahoga County and Medina County (by the 25% commuter rule).  Since Cuyahoga County's MSA also includes Lorain and Medina, Cuyahoga and Lorain (as well as Medina coming along for the ride) may be combined into one MSA).  Lake County could likely be combined with Cuyahoga County and Geauga County.  However, once again, all of these counties also fall within Cuyahoga County's MSA criteria, so the two are merged (that is why it is called the Lorain-Elyria-Cleveland-Mentor MSA).  However, when we get to Akron, the likely counties included in Summit County's MSA would be Medina and Portage.  Portage must not qualify to be part of Cleveland's MSA because if it did then both Summit and Portage would be part of Cleveland's MSA.  This allows Summit County to "stand on its own".  Medina County can't be in two MSA's, so it goes to the county more people commute to (which must be Cuyahoga County).

 

The way I know that Summit County would otherwise qualify to be a part of Cleveland's MSA is that the commuting criteria for a CSA is the same percentage, except that it is only between the two core MSA counties.  So Cuyahoga and Summit meet the criteria.  Portage is the one hanging off Summit that doesn't allow it to be a part of Cleveland.

 

So there's a few things going on here...

 

If Summit County contained just as many people and as much employment, but didn't have an "urban center", it would be a part of Cleveland's MSA.

 

If Portage County stopped meeting the criteria to be in Akron's MSA, Akron would be combined into Cleveland's MSA.

 

Using county borders for MSA's seems kinda backwards.  Macedonia is much more a suburb of Cleveland than Akron, but since it is "south of the border" it has to go to Akron.  As a matter of fact, the way the rules are written up for the MSA, if Summit County included nearly every suburb of Cuyahoga County except for a string of suburbs along the lake, all of those suburbs would be included in Akron's MSA as well.

 

So in short, it's an imperfect system using county boundaries that we probably shouldn't worry all that much about.

 

Great post!  Re-opening this thread was worth it just to read that excellent explanation.

Having looked back at the thread, I agree - believe me, ColDayMan has no qualms about letting someone have it but this isn't one of those cases. Cherrypicking quotes in order to pick a fight is a surefire way to get time off. That said:

 

I didn't see it as anyone "letting me have it", and I don't come to this site to pick fights.  I viewed it as someone getting frustrated, repeating references to the same pieces of data that many people disagree with (which was sort of the point of the thread) and using words that can only escalate a conversation.  I'm done whether I need to be or not...

...and back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

Wow. This got out of control in a big hurry. ColDayMan is correct. Distance has nothing to do with what areas are included in an MSA vs. a CSA. Instead it is measured by interaction and interdepency. These include factors like commuting patterns, metropolitan planning organization jurisdiction, public utility service areas and even media coverage (ie: newspaper circulation, plus television/radio coverage).

 

If you want to include Akron in Cleveland's MSA, then tell more people from Akron to commute to Cleveland, tell them to buy Cleveland's water, ditch the Akron Beacon Journal for the Plain Dealer and merge AMATS with NOACA!

But KJP, you're repeating references to the same pieces of data that many people disagree with (which was apparently the point of the thread)!!!

 

;)

Without seeing ColDayMan's PDF link, I read the official PDF about how MSA's are determined.  I'll try to put into my own words what I see as being the problem.

 

Lorain County, Cuyahoga County, Lake County, and Summit County are all MSA candidate counties due to the fact that they each have an "urban cluster" or "central city" of over 50,000 (Lorain/Elyria, Cleveland, Mentor, and Akrom, respectively).  Every single one of these counties also has enough commuters to Cuyahoga County to be a candidate for inclusion in Cleveland's MSA (I'll get to how I know this later).  However, we're not done.  We need to examine every other county as if it were its own MSA.  Lorain County's "MSA" would include Lorain County and possibly Cuyahoga County and Medina County (by the 25% commuter rule).  Since Cuyahoga County's MSA also includes Lorain and Medina, Cuyahoga and Lorain (as well as Medina coming along for the ride) may be combined into one MSA).  Lake County could likely be combined with Cuyahoga County and Geauga County.  However, once again, all of these counties also fall within Cuyahoga County's MSA criteria, so the two are merged (that is why it is called the Lorain-Elyria-Cleveland-Mentor MSA).  However, when we get to Akron, the likely counties included in Summit County's MSA would be Medina and Portage.  Portage must not qualify to be part of Cleveland's MSA because if it did then both Summit and Portage would be part of Cleveland's MSA.  This allows Summit County to "stand on its own".  Medina County can't be in two MSA's, so it goes to the county more people commute to (which must be Cuyahoga County).

 

The way I know that Summit County would otherwise qualify to be a part of Cleveland's MSA is that the commuting criteria for a CSA is the same percentage, except that it is only between the two core MSA counties.  So Cuyahoga and Summit meet the criteria.  Portage is the one hanging off Summit that doesn't allow it to be a part of Cleveland.

 

So there's a few things going on here...

 

If Summit County contained just as many people and as much employment, but didn't have an "urban center", it would be a part of Cleveland's MSA.

 

If Portage County stopped meeting the criteria to be in Akron's MSA, Akron would be combined into Cleveland's MSA.

 

Using county borders for MSA's seems kinda backwards.  Macedonia is much more a suburb of Cleveland than Akron, but since it is "south of the border" it has to go to Akron.  As a matter of fact, the way the rules are written up for the MSA, if Summit County included nearly every suburb of Cuyahoga County except for a string of suburbs along the lake, all of those suburbs would be included in Akron's MSA as well.

 

So in short, it's an imperfect system using county boundaries that we probably shouldn't worry all that much about.

 

THANK YOU! As far as my earlier comments, I'm not sure how it came off as "attacking Cleveland" again, but if I ruffled any feathers, I apologize.  But come on, 8titles, don't even say you never see Clevelanders making questionable comments about Cincinnati and Columbus.  You were called out in another thread just recently for making some comments about Cincinnati being a southern town. The time out put on this thread by MayDay was put to good use!

If you want to include Akron in Cleveland's MSA, then tell more people from Akron to commute to Cleveland, tell them to buy Cleveland's water, ditch the Akron Beacon Journal for the Plain Dealer and merge AMATS with NOACA!

 

Hmmmmm..... can we ditch the Plain Dealer for the Beacon Journal?  That could be a deal breaker.

Of Portage county residents who work outside the county, just over 50% work in Summit county, and 15% work in Cuyahoga county.

 

For Portage to be over the 25% mark for workers going to Cuyahoga county, a bit over 7,000 more people would have needed to commute to Cuyahoga county in 2000.

 

This is a good point, and I was about to go back and edit my original post to address this possibility, but I'll just reply here.

 

If Portage county fit the criteria to be included in both the Cleveland and Akron MSAs, then the Cleveland MSA would subsume the Akron MSA.  I could definitely see this happening.  Hudson, Aurora, and Streetsboro are all booming, and many of these people commute to Cuyahoga County.

 

The one that surprised me last census was Ashtabula dropping out.  I personally know a few people that commute to downtown Cleveland from the city of Ashtabula.  It's a long haul, but there are really no jobs out that way.  If Ashtabula used to fit the criteria for inclusion, I don't really understand what caused them to drop out.  It surely wasn't an influx of jobs into that corner of the state (or northwestern Pennsylvania for that matter).

Well, the Census Bureau wholly revamped the way it determines metro areas for the 2000 census (per the document coldayman posted.)  Looking at the data from the link I posted above, a bit over 21% of Ashtabula Co. commuters work in Cuyahoga Co., which is just shy of the 25% needed for inclusion in the MSA.  If just under 500 more people commuted from Ashtabula to Cuyahoga Co. in 2000, it would have been included.

 

The largest number of commuters (45%) work in Lake Co., and 18% work in Geauga Co.  Less than 5% work anywhere in the state of PA, with most in Erie Co.

 

So I guess they used to fit whatever the old criteria were for inclusion in the PMSA, but when the Census Bureau changed over to the new definitions, Ashtabula Co. just barely didn't make the cut.