Hopefully with cities passing these resolutions, something can get done. The Amtrak plan has been getting some positive press too.

20 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Hopefully with cities passing these resolutions, something can get done. The Amtrak plan has been getting some positive press too.

We're going to need the cities represented by republicans to do the same thing as Hamilton.  So Dayton, Beavercreek, Springfield, Toledo, Sandusky, Painesville, and I'm sure there's others along these routes.  The fact of the matter is, the 3Cs will not shape the legislature's decision in the least bit.

Edited February 26, 20214 yr by 10albersa

On 2/22/2021 at 8:59 PM, KJP said:

 

Potentially? A pile of rubble. It's not at a good location in at couple of respects. First, it's at the junction of two lines -- the lightly used CSX freight and Amtrak line to Indianapolis and the busy north-south CSX freight line. Stopping Amtrak trains at/near this junction creates congestion issues for CSX. Only a significant and expensive reworking of the track layout at this junction would solve this, including adding ADA-compliant pedestrian overpasses or underpasses of the tracks. Second, the Amtrak track is on a curve here, complicating ADA gap-compliance here between the train and platform. A straight section of track is the ideal local for a station platform. And third, the station is in a not-so-hot part of town, from what I understand. Plus, CSX owns the station building and they want it gone. I doubt they would sell it unless the buyer could feasibly move it.

 

 

Agreed. The last planned stop location (about 10 years ago) was on Front Street, across from the current police station which would also provide some security benefit.

 

Apparently CSX has been asked to donate the station if there were entities willing to move the building, but there may be some additional demands from CSX if the city is involved (relating to things CSX would like to do around town). A relocation is likely the only way to preserve the historic building.

 

Finally got a response from Dave Joyce’s office here at 10pm on a Friday. I submitted something requesting he support the Amtrak expansion project early last week. (Maybe even longer ago?) His note makes no commitment to anything. It was also great how he educated me about Amtrak, something a person contacting him to support Amtrak would definitely need to know. 

 

Dear Mr. [personalized],

 

Thank you for contacting me to express your support for Amtrak. Your thoughts on this matter are most welcome and appreciated.

As you may know, Amtrak is the nation's primary provider of intercity passenger rail service. It was created by Congress in 1970 to preserve some level of intercity passenger rail service while enabling private rail companies to exit the money-losing passenger rail business. It is a quasi-governmental entity, a corporation whose stock is almost entirely owned by the federal government. It runs a deficit each year, and relies on congressional appropriations to continue operations

As a Member of the House Appropriations Committee, and a former Vice Chairman of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, one of my foremost priorities is improving the forms of transport our constituency depends on each day, through both technological innovation and increased levels of safety. I am happy to keep your views in mind as my colleagues and I consider the FY 2022 Appropriations proposals.

Once again, thank you for contacting me. Should you have additional comments or questions on this or any other issue, please feel free to contact me at my Mentor, Twinsburg, or Washington, D.C. office. I also invite you to stay in touch by signing up for my weekly email newsletter, the Weekly Wrap, which you can do by visiting my website at https://joyce.house.gov/newsletter-sign-up/ .

Sincerely,

 

Rep. David Joyce
Member of Congress

Cleveland City Council passes resolution supporting Amtrak's proposed Ohio expansion

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-city-council-passes-resolution-supporting-amtrak-proposed-ohio-expansion/95-2b20a5ef-8956-49e9-bb8c-bd8d09236e54

 

CLEVELAND — During their Monday meeting, Cleveland City Council passed a resolution supporting Amtrak’s proposed expansion of passenger rail services in Ohio.

In addition, the council is urging Ohio's members of Congress to support a renewal of the federal Surface Transportation Reauthorization and also sign off on the appropriate funds for the proposed expansion.

...

According to a release from Cleveland City Council, Amtrak proposes to increase the number of weekly train arrivals and departures at Cincinnati from six to 104 trains per week, at Cleveland from 28 to 154 weekly, at Columbus and Dayton from zero to 42 per week, and at Toledo from 28 to 70 weekly.

Wow, what an amazingly well-written resolution! 😉

I never realized that Columbus didn't have train service, and Cincys is almost non-existent.  

29 minutes ago, Jenny said:

I never realized that Columbus didn't have train service, and Cincys is almost non-existent.  

Yup. Cardinal service (Chicago Indy Cincy WV DC) is only 3x each direction weekly. Even worse, those trains go right through Oxford and Hamilton and don’t stop. The new Amtrak proposal would include stops in both and add 4x daily service Cincy Indy Lafayette (Purdue) Chicago on the same route as the Cardinal. 

Someone needs to figure out how to channel the north-south rivalry energy into encouraging the southern cities to be loudly supportive of Amtrak. Springfield and Middletown should be livid that podunk Bryan has better train service than they do!

@Jenny This is how bad it is (note that this is from Amtrak, which wants to serve Ohio and other states but hasn't been given the resources from those states or Congress to expand -- that's what we at All Aboard Ohio are trying to fix).....

 

 

Cleveland CC: "Let's make sure we do what we can to support rail transit!"

 

Ohio general assembly: 

Did the assembly do something?

36 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Did the assembly do something?

 

No... I'm just referencing their mere, counterproductive existence

Using some of the money sloshing around in the Covid Relief bill, I hope a 3C rail line could go directly to a 110-mph service standard, instead of temporizing with slower speeds as the last 3C proposal offered. 

7 hours ago, Dougal said:

Using some of the money sloshing around in the Covid Relief bill, I hope a 3C rail line could go directly to a 110-mph service standard, instead of temporizing with slower speeds as the last 3C proposal offered. 

 

Doubtful. It likely be at least 5-10 years before 3C advances to construction and probably longer. Everything takes longer than you think it will. Amtrak's first priority is to expand service on its existing routes. 3C works OK ridership- and revenue-wise as a stand-alone route without connections at either end. But the analysis from the Federal Rail Administration's Midwest Regional Rail Plan and prior system planning efforts found that 3C excels when it has endpoint connections.

 

Each expansion, even along existing routes, is going to take 2-5 years to go from the start of project-level planning to start of service -- assuming Congress appropriates the funding when Amtrak and the states want it. Amtrak has 35 routes nationwide that they want to expand or create over the next 15 years.

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Doubtful. It likely be at least 5-10 years before 3C advances to construction and probably longer. Everything takes longer than you think it will. Amtrak's first priority is to expand service on its existing routes. 3C works OK ridership- and revenue-wise as a stand-alone route without connections at either end. But the analysis from the Federal Rail Administration's Midwest Regional Rail Plan and prior system planning efforts found that 3C excels when it has endpoint connections.

 

Each expansion, even along existing routes, is going to take 2-5 years to go from the start of project-level planning to start of service -- assuming Congress appropriates the funding when Amtrak and the states want it. Amtrak has 35 routes nationwide that they want to expand or create over the next 15 years.

The pace of modern public works is always such a disappointment.  The transcontinental railroad (Omaha to Alameda) was built in four years; but today we need 15 years to upgrade 250 miles of track. 

33 minutes ago, Dougal said:

The pace of modern public works is always such a disappointment.  The transcontinental railroad (Omaha to Alameda) was built in four years; but today we need 15 years to upgrade 250 miles of track. 

 

Or even 2.5 miles of track if it's in a location where few if any trains have run before and thus the environmental impact is higher. The cost of modern public works in the USA is also higher. Europe can build a 35-mile rail tunnel for less than $12 billion while it can cost up to $3.5 billion to build one mile of rail tunnel in the USA.

5 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Or even 2.5 miles of track if it's in a location where few if any trains have run before and thus the environmental impact is higher. The cost of modern public works in the USA is also higher. Europe can build a 35-mile rail tunnel for less than $12 billion while it can cost up to $3.5 billion to build one mile of rail tunnel in the USA.

 

These kinds of stats always mystify me.   We always think of Europe as a place with a huge amount of government oversight especially when it comes to health, safety, etc.   How is it possible that our costs are so much higher here?   

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

These kinds of stats always mystify me.   We always think of Europe as a place with a huge amount of government oversight especially when it comes to health, safety, etc.   How is it possible that our costs are so much higher here?   

 

I think it's a couple of things. The biggest reason seems to be that most European countries have a stronger central government. They may have stronger environmental rules and regulations, but the centralized government can act faster and reduce the cost and time of projects.

 

I also imagine the lack of sprawling suburban regions reduces the cost of land acquisition and preconstruction work for large intercity public works projects. 

On 3/16/2021 at 9:44 AM, ryanlammi said:

 

I think it's a couple of things. The biggest reason seems to be that most European countries have a stronger central government. They may have stronger environmental rules and regulations, but the centralized government can act faster and reduce the cost and time of projects.

 

I also imagine the lack of sprawling suburban regions reduces the cost of land acquisition and preconstruction work for large intercity public works projects. 

 

I would add that it's probably more difficult for NIMBY's and other interests to derail or slow projects down via the courts in Europe.  Our environmental review process is pretty expensive.  In an e-mail discussion I was involved in recently someone mentioned a single overpass project where the total price tag was $18 million, with $4 million of that being environmental reviews.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with the need for environmental reviews, but I think some streamlining of the process here would help, especially for rail projects which are more environmentally friendly than highways.  Unfortunately, with the way campaign contributions and dark money translates into legislation and policy here, I'm not convinced a proper streamlining of environmental rules can occur.

Edited March 19, 20214 yr by gildone

A ray of hope is that Amtrak is going to be requesting some changes to federal law that would make it easier for them to implement some of the Ohio expansions they've proposed. Among them is the extensions of two Empire Corridor trains and the Keystone Corridor train. CSX and NS could both complicate things by demanding some additional infrastructure/capacity improvements that would require going through the NEPA process. And those would require some kind of layover facility at the Cleveland Amtrak station. That would also trigger a NEPA review. But since it's within the existing right of way and represents a use that is consistent with the uses of the surrounding properties and not a significant increase of activity, Amtrak could probably get away with a categorical exclusion here.

43 minutes ago, gildone said:

 

I would add that it's probably more difficult for NIMBY's and other interests to derail or slow projects down via the courts in Europe.  Our environmental review process is pretty expensive.  In an e-mail discussion I was involved in recently someone mentioned a single overpass project where the total price tag was $18 million, with $4 million of that being environmental reviews.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with the need for environmental reviews, but I think some streamlining of the process here would help, especially for rail projects which are more environmentally friendly than highways.  Unfortunately, with the way campaign contributions and dark money translates into legislation and policy here, I'm not convinced a proper streamlining of environmental rules can occur.

 

We have a lot of regulations here regarding drainage they they might not have.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

 

We have a lot of regulations here regarding drainage they they might not have.

 

Am I correct in assuming that this is a problem for us because we've paved over so many creeks and other drainage basins?

That is part of it, along with far more people living in sprawl, plus their rural areas are actually rural and don't have houses every 500 feet like our "rural" areas do east of the Mississippi. But there are probably some regulations we have that they just don't -- yet. Or they're less arduous than ours.

Amtrak to restore daily service through Cleveland; major Ohio rail expansion pushed by advocates

Susan Glaser - Cleveland.com - Mar. 24, 2021

 

"Amtrak is planning to restore daily long-distance train service through Cleveland this spring, reduced last year because of the coronavirus pandemic. ... Amtrak will bring back daily service on all 12 reduced routes on a staggered basis in late May and early June. The two lines that come through Cleveland will resume daily service on May 31. ... Meanwhile, All Aboard Ohio continues to lobby for the possibility of a much more significant expansion of Amtrak service in the state. In recent weeks, the group has been encouraging local officials to pass resolutions in support of a possible major expansion of Amtrak service in Ohio and across the country."

I still keep my fingers crossed for service that comes through Ohio at a time when normal people are awake.  When my wife and I were childless, we took Amtrak to Chicago and it was a fantastic way to get right into the middle of downtown.  And when I worked in Canton, I got on board at the Alliance station and headed down to D.C. to see friends from law school.  But both of those required after-midnight boardings here.

 

When I was a kid, growing up in Philadelphia, we'd take it up to Boston around Thanksgiving to see my grandparents and it was great.

Columbus is next

 

Official backing from Columbus at the March 29th City Council meeting. I timestamped All Aboard Ohio's Stu Nicholson comments to council regarding the cities resolution.  According to Nicholson, the next step the city (along with MORPC) should take is looking at possible station locations. Nicholson also mentioned the CHI-FTW-Lima-CLB-PIT route which was not in the initial Amtrak proposal. Toledo's resolution should come this week. 

 

Assuming things actually worked out for Ohio with regards to rail in the future, Cincinnati and Cleveland already have Amtrak train terminals correct?  One exciting prospect is that Columbus would require and entirely brand new terminal.  Any suggestions/hypothesis of where this could go?  Maybe they could build something quite modern and striking to fit our current age!!

2 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

Assuming things actually worked out for Ohio with regards to rail in the future, Cincinnati and Cleveland already have Amtrak train terminals correct?  One exciting prospect is that Columbus would require and entirely brand new terminal.  Any suggestions/hypothesis of where this could go?  Maybe they could build something quite modern and striking to fit our current age!!

I'm not sure of the geography of the Columbus rail route, but it would be great to have an OSU Campus stop as well.  

9 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

Assuming things actually worked out for Ohio with regards to rail in the future, Cincinnati and Cleveland already have Amtrak train terminals correct?  One exciting prospect is that Columbus would require and entirely brand new terminal.  Any suggestions/hypothesis of where this could go?  Maybe they could build something quite modern and striking to fit our current age!!

 

It would most likely be at the convention center as it goes by the tracks already and was built with the ability to easily add a train station someday. This was actually just being discussed in about in another thread but I forget which one.

38 minutes ago, Zyrokai said:

 

It would most likely be at the convention center as it goes by the tracks already and was built with the ability to easily add a train station someday. This was actually just being discussed in about in another thread but I forget which one.

I've always known about this ability, but this adaptation was taken into consideration back in 1980 when the Ohio Center Way was built.  Since then the convention center and entire surrounding area has basically built out to the max, way more than probably anticipated in 1980.

 

That being said, the remaining rail lines that pass under the convention center are extremely active and busy for CSX.  There would need to be a build out for a sitting area for the entire train to pull out of traffic.  The convention center site would work best for perhaps a smaller tram to the airport, but I think a site closer to 670 would be better long term.

 

And this is all just for fun and throwing other ideas out there.  As much as we would like a downtown terminal, perhaps it would be best to build the main Amtrak train terminal/station at John Glenn International Airport, with a tram connecting to the convention center/OSU.  I feel like for future accessibility/functionality, an intermodal approach would be key, but that's just me.  The airport, and their new parking and car rental facility was built to accommodate this future tram/rail capability in mind, and would be able to support the parking as well.

 

Whatever is built, consideration for future growth should be built into the scenario.  I would think Columbus would want to be able to hold at least 4 trains/platforms simultaneously....Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati & Pittsburgh in mind.

 

Again, just spit balling here, love to hear other ideas...

 

 

Edited April 1, 20214 yr by Gnoraa

So, in the video of the council meeting, the All Aboard Ohio director brings up potential station locations.  He mentions that the original Union Station location(where the Convention Center now is) probably won't work because it has become too developed and narrowed.  He mentions the Arena District as an option.

Makes me so sad to remember that in a completely imaginable alternative reality, where OH elected a normal GOP governor in 2010 instead of a visionless ideologue, this round of infrastructure spending would be upgrading an existing Cleveland/Columbus/Cincinnati routes to 110mph service. Instead we'll be on the edge of our seat to see if the state will once again cut off its nose to spite its face.

1 hour ago, Zyrokai said:

 

It would most likely be at the convention center as it goes by the tracks already and was built with the ability to easily add a train station someday. This was actually just being discussed in about in another thread but I forget which one.

 

Arena District Thread

4 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

So, in the video of the council meeting, the All Aboard Ohio director brings up potential station locations.  He mentions that the original Union Station location(where the Convention Center now is) probably won't work because it has become too developed and narrowed.  He mentions the Arena District as an option.

 

The big question is what will the freight railroads want and demand? If they are reasonable, there is certainly room to develop a 3-platform, 6-track station on and east of east of High Street if we can remove the pointless roadway bridges above the tracks and replace them with an attractive multimodal station.

Are you talking about the 3rd Street viaduct?

53 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Are you talking about the 3rd Street viaduct?

 

No, the ground-level and elevated roadways between the convention center and hotel.

Columbus could wind up having one of the most convenient stations for passengers. The Convention Center is right downtown and an easy walk to the arena/stadiums, etc. Cincinnati Union Terminal is sort of isolated from downtown (which is why they need a cross-town streetcar) and Cleveland's is on the lakefront.

11 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

No, the ground-level and elevated roadways between the convention center and hotel.

 

Oh, I don't think the ground level ones are all that necessary. They could go away easily.

8 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Columbus could wind up having one of the most convenient stations for passengers. The Convention Center is right downtown and an easy walk to the arena/stadiums, etc. Cincinnati Union Terminal is sort of isolated from downtown (which is why they need a cross-town streetcar) and Cleveland's is on the lakefront.

 

Toledo's is also a long walk from downtown. It's not determined yet where Cleveland's station may be (see the Cleveland Union Terminal thread). The city is looking at an extension of the grassy malls as a land bridge over the tracks with a station below it. A new station would have to be developed to handle the proposed service levels.

 

AND

 

 

How long does the boarding process generally take for Amtrak? How long before your scheduled departure do you generally have to arrive at the station? I've never used Amtrak before, but I would love to have it as an option for traveling down to Cincinnati for a Crew-FCC game if the train schedule, cost, and travel time make sense.

^HELL IS REAL TRAIN!

27 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

How long does the boarding process generally take for Amtrak? How long before your scheduled departure do you generally have to arrive at the station? I've never used Amtrak before, but I would love to have it as an option for traveling down to Cincinnati for a Crew-FCC game if the train schedule, cost, and travel time make sense.

 

If you already have your ticket you can basically arrive right before the train is scheduled to depart. If you need a ticket, give yourself about 10 minutes for that. It is the exact opposite of the airport experience.

19 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Oh, I don't think the ground level ones are all that necessary. They could go away easily.

Convention Center Way provides service access to the two Hilton hotels, a portion of the convention center and a parking garage.

What I meant is that there is probably another solution that would address access to those things.

 

1 hour ago, cbussoccer said:

How long does the boarding process generally take for Amtrak? How long before your scheduled departure do you generally have to arrive at the station? I've never used Amtrak before, but I would love to have it as an option for traveling down to Cincinnati for a Crew-FCC game if the train schedule, cost, and travel time make sense.

I took a trip out to Denver on Amtrak and the boarding process blew my mind.  I went in expecting it to feel like flying, but was way off.  I boarded at the "station" in Elyria.  I put that in quotes because I almost couldn't find it because I was looking for a building, but it is actually just a small elevated platform by a parking lot.  I later learned that this is what most pick up locations look like outside of big cities.  Just looks like a bus stop.  The train pulled up in the middle of the night(it was like 1.5 hrs late for a departure time that was scheduled for 3am-ish) and a person jumps out of the door to check your ticket.  At that point, I got on the train with a huge bag of luggage(backpacking/camping equipment) no questions asked.  There were a couple Amish guys getting on as well with gigantic camo backcountry backpacks that I assume contained hunting equipment.  If you are looking for a quick, convenient trip, Amtrak doesn't really provide that.  You regularly stop and wait for long periods of time for freight trains to use the track and are often very behind schedule.  Would I recommend trying it?  Absolutely.  I plan to do a major trip around the country at some point.  You see things you wouldn't if you flew/drove and it was fun just hanging out in the observation car.

Edited April 2, 20214 yr by TH3BUDDHA