May 31, 200718 yr Author Also notice the difference in headlines...interesting. Same story, two ways to tell it. Yeah the Enquirer talks about the cost, the Buisness Courier talks about the benefit. I saw Joe Wessels at the presentation. I hope the Post will have some good coverage.
May 31, 200718 yr Just to keep in perspective how far we have yet to go -- Charlie Hales told us in Portland last week that the streetcar group there appeared before Portland City Council about 200 times before the first streetcar ever rolled down the tracks.
May 31, 200718 yr Author ^in portland didn't it take them about 11 years from the pitch to first car rolling? I think if we do it in three or four, John 'Streetcar' Schneider will only need to show up about 65 times. From the Post City streetcar a desire for some By Joe Wessels Post contributor There are more than a few people desiring a streetcar in Cincinnati. Many of them packed Cincinnati City Council Chambers Wednesday afternoon during an economic development committee meeting to hear the results of a feasibility study. Council Member Chris Bortz, who chairs the committee, first proposed Council looking into the issue.
May 31, 200718 yr What a surprise...Chris Monzel is a question mark on whether he is really supportive of the effort or not. This guy needs to be out of office!
May 31, 200718 yr I'm counting Monzel as a supporter. I think we have only one possible opponent that I know of, and it's not Monzel. When we presented the plan to Monzel one-on-one, he was very engaged and had some of the most astute questions of any council members. He did oppose light rail and the streetcar in 2002, but he seems to be ok with this.
May 31, 200718 yr ^It was pretty weak reporting that was used in regards to Mozel. A "what if" scenario by an unnamed aide to Monzel? WEAK! This project sound awesome. As Tarbell said, this is about: "unlocking the potential of our urban neighborhoods." I am very much in favor of this idea. It makes more sense for the city than the doomed light rail proposal a few years ago. I will write the council members tonight in support of streetcars. Bortz said city adminstrators were asked to report back to council within a month on how best to build and finance a streetcar system. What is the timetable on this? The terminology of 'within a month' indicates that no concrete proposal has been made at this time. I am wondering how this will be built in 2010. I figure that there is still a lot of work to be done: Planning, Council Vote, Financing, Even picking contractors has proved difficult for the city in the past. I hope this goes through ASAP. Long overdue in my estimation.
June 1, 200718 yr Friday trolley bus service debuts downtown June 1, 2007 | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER DOWNTOWN - A free lunchtime trolley bus service will operate in downtown Cincinnati every Friday from June through August, Downtown Cincinnati Inc. announced Friday. The 'Round Town Trolley begins June 1, running from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. on a route that loops from Fountain Square, to Central Parkway, Sycamore Street, Fourth Street and Elm Street. The service, operated by Metro and sponsored by Procter & Gamble Co. (NYSE: PG) and the Cincinnati USA Regional Tourism Network is meant to offer downtown workers and visitors more shopping and dining options outside their immediate area, according to a news release. "The 'Round Town Trolleys will offer the downtown community a fun and convenient way to experience downtown and the programming on Fountain Square during their lunch break," said Louise Hughes, director of government and community relations for Procter. On several occasions during the summer, live music will be featured on the trolley buses, according to the release. For more information and a route map, visit www.downtowncincinnati.com.
June 2, 200718 yr I emailed this to Darryl Parks at 700 WLW this morning, maybe he read it on air: I am at work this morning so I can't call in. The function of mass transit systems and vehicular traffic through cities is something that most people think they know about since they are around cars and buses every day but few have studied. A pertinent parallel would be a person who can speak English but can't read or write it, hasn't studied its grammatical structure, hasn't studied its history and evolution, etc. As a member of the media it's your responsibility to research these matters well beyond what the Enquirer publishes and and not perpetuate traffic/mass transit barbershop folderol. So since you don't know what the heck you're talking about, quit talking about it on your show.
June 2, 200718 yr What drives me crazy about these people is that they do no research whatsoever. Reading one article in the Enquirer in no way prepares a radio talk show host to form an opinion and conduct a useful discussion with callers. An opinion columnist for any serious paper would be fired immediately for a similar lack of research and many even writing for college and high school papers. If there was evidence that he had done some homework and then come out against the streetcar proposal, then fine. On the show Mr. Parks also mocked the route since The Banks doesn't exist yet. He's like "don't they know there's nothing there?". Come on, brother. One other thing...if there is a $100 million capital cost and starting in thirty years the vehicles, track, and some other equipment have to be replaced due to wear then the capital cost can (sort of) be divided by those 30 years. So $3 million per year is not an accurate number but it is in the neighborhood of what the expense of phase one will be if broken down into installment payments.
June 2, 200718 yr I don't listen to talk shows very often but when they screen people, do they purposely choose people that are going to provide a terrible counter-argument? Bill Cunningham says the most ridiculous stuff sometimes but I know some of the smartest people out there that would tear his ass apart probably have better things to do at the time than listen to his show. If I listened to his show, I'd probably call in all the time, but I never listen to the radio or watch tv for that matter.
June 2, 200718 yr Sadly, education is not a prerequisite for an opinion. But I do wish people would recognize when they don't have enough information and have enough balls to say "I don't know." Those seem to be the toughest three words in the English language to say. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 2, 200718 yr I can tell you from the experience of working in broadcast news, that most radio hosts (and/or their show producers) barely do research beyond a newspaper article. One of the few exceptions are Fred Anderle and Bob Singleton at WOSU-Radio (820 AM). I know them both as fellow reporters and from having been a show guest for "Open Line" several times. They honestly do their homework. But sadly, they are more the exception than the rule. And what would you expect from WLW? They're just another neo-conservative Clear-Channel radio spewer. To expect anything resembling depth from a clear-channel station is waiting for steam locomotives to make a comeback.
June 3, 200718 yr CINCINNATI -- If backers have their way, streetcars could appear on Cincinnati streets within the next five years. The city is looking at a system similar to one installed in Tampa, Fla., where it's brought $1.1 billion into Tampa's coffers. "This is not about determining whether the city can afford this investment. The question is, can we afford not to take this incredible opportunity to unlock the potential of our city?" City Councilman Chris Bortz said. The proposed system would cost just short of $90 million to create 3.9 miles of track, buy six streetcars and build a maintanence facility. The streetcar route would run between Great American Ballpark and Over-the-Rhine. If all goes according to plan, people may be able to hit the rails by 2012.
June 3, 200718 yr ^well if they say its going to be built NOW, then investment should start NOW. So were good!
June 3, 200718 yr 5 years?????!! Build it now!! Alot of OTR will not survive another 2-3 years Ha, by the time they build the banks and streetcars, it will be the year 3012.
June 4, 200718 yr At the presentation the study group from HDR said three years from council's go to trains rolling. That would put the first train moving in 2010 if the plan continues to move. I'm not sure where that story got five years but nothing was mentioned of taking that long at the meeting. My guess is that what ever news source printed that blurb didn't do any research per usual and made up a year to dampen enthusiasm for the project.
June 4, 200718 yr Author last line of the file http://www.citystreetcar.net/Presentation/Narrative.pdf "How long will it take to build the first phase of the system? Portland took eleven years. We believe that Cincinnati can do it in five."
June 4, 200718 yr It's not going uptown?! :( Did you really just ask that...haven't you been keeping up on this at all. I would have thought that you would understand the process that is being taken at this point. It isn't feasible to say poof here is a streetcar system for the entire damn city. It has to be pieced together...not only that, but it will allow the economic juggernauts in the Uptown area to see how great the system is and maybe pony up some money for the system to be expanded (the same goes for Nky who is desperately jealous of this proposed system). It will eventually get there, but it is a process and lets get this part built and then focus on adding on to it. One step at a time here.
June 4, 200718 yr There are maps showing part 1a & 1b in this pdf tht appears to be just a bunch of powerpoint slides. http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf16341.pdf I am assuming this is the presentation delivered at City Hall the other night. If so, can anyone tell me if there were some kind of special plans for the Moerlein/KD Lamp bldg ?
June 4, 200718 yr Author I think there are unrelated plans for a project called Moerlein gardens, but the picture was put in the presentation to show how similar the building looked to portland in the previous slide.
June 5, 200718 yr Coucilman Chris Bortz and City Architect Michael Moore did a great presentation on this topic on the Sunday edition of Channel 12 Newsmakers. Bortz said pretty much the mood on Council was "can we afford not to do this/why wouldn't we do it".
June 5, 200718 yr Just for clarification...is it Michael Moore or Michael Moose?!?!? I've seen it written both ways consistently, is there some reason behind this. Either way, I would like some clarification!
June 5, 200718 yr Just for clarification...is it Michael Moore or Michael Moose?!?!? I've seen it written both ways consistently, is there some reason behind this. Either way, I would like some clarification! These are two different men. Michael Moore is the city architect, and Michael Moose works for Glaserworks (I think). I was confused as well until someone clarified.
June 5, 200718 yr Just for clarification...is it Michael Moore or Michael Moose?!?!? I've seen it written both ways consistently, is there some reason behind this. Either way, I would like some clarification! These are two different men. Michael Moore is the city architect, and Michael Moose works for Glaserworks (I think). I was confused as well until someone clarified. Both are southern gentlemen, and both are architects. I have trouble telling them apart some days.
June 5, 200718 yr Ok, what are the next steps guys? Michael Moore and the consultants are to report back to the Economic Development Committee within a month outlining the next steps. My guess, the next step is the formal NEPA analysis, which will cost a little less than $1 million.
June 5, 200718 yr Of light rail and streetcars: a Cincinnati fable Your voice: Erwin Hoffman Some folks in Paradox were concerned that things had become too static in their town. They figured that a race between a hare and a tortoise would create a lot of interest. Several committees talked about how to organize the event, because laying out a course would take volunteers and money. Some said it would be a boondoggle. Others, known as NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard), said they didn't want the smelly animals in their neighborhood. The promoters said the hares were specially bred and unlike the hares that hang around backyards eating the lettuce. And, they were sleek and fast runners and would not bother anyone. Lost in the shuffle was the tortoise. He didn't get talked about much, except by a small group of people. They wanted to use an old-fashioned, vintage-type of turtle. The NIMBYs weren't really concerned about the tortoise, because they didn't believe he would ever make it out their way; he would get lost downtown. There was so much fuss raised about a tortoise-hare race that it was dropped. Instead, the pushers decided to build a track in the downtown streets. Some general agreement did exist, but some felt that this would be bad for traffic. They suggested that flying bats be hung over the streets. However, the town had other issues and nothing happened. Meanwhile, the burghers across the creek bought some sleek hares and installed special tracks for the hare and tortoise. People from everywhere came to marvel. The burghers of this town now find themselves weeping tears all the way to the bank. Erwin Hoffman of Hyde Park, who is retired from the Cincinnati Planning Commission staff, is vice president of Cincinnati Street Railway Inc., a group advocating streetcars in Cincinnati. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070605/EDIT02/706050338/1090/EDIT
June 6, 200718 yr Cincinnati Streetcar: Laying the tracks for connecting communities and people BY JESSICA NOLL | DOWNTOWNER June 5, 2007 DOWNTOWN - Imagine a shorter version of a train on the street that stops at the stop signs, goes on green and is a smooth ride. Now that you have officially envisioned a Portland streetcar, imagine Main Street being a 5 10 minute ride to Findlay Market. Now, you have thought about the Cincinnati streetcar, as many in support of the streetcar initiative think about, every day. A goal that would transfer and circulate commuters from Main Street outside of the Great American Ball Park to 12th and Elm; to McMicken and Race; to Central Parkway and Walnut; to the Banks; and ending at the Great American Ball Park, the Cincinnati streetcar is a dream and theory in progress by City officials, consultants and like-minded citizens.
June 6, 200718 yr oh man, the streetcar plan was roundly drubbed on the McRothenberg Group tonight. I don't think they got it, tho. They kept acing like it was something to be used as entertainment. oh well, I'm guessing I was the only person watching, so it probably doesn't matter.
June 6, 200718 yr ^Ed Rothenburg and the McRothenburg group are a joke. These are COAST guys, if not officially, than their fellow travelers. You probably were the only person watching. Also, I thought Pasadena, California was the City of Roses, not Portland.
June 6, 200718 yr Either way it doesn't matter. Pasadena has a light rail system and is building another one as cincinnati continues to live in its past.
June 9, 200718 yr Looking back, to the future Once upon a time, streetcars flourished in Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. They were the first genuinely effective form of mass transit, bridging the era between horse-drawn carriages and the automobile, and they shaped the region in ways that endure to this day. The first electrified streetcar arrived in Cincinnati in 1888; the last one was taken out of service in 1951. The streetcar lines were privately owned, and most had a big downtown presence. But many ran out to what were then the suburbs. Peebles Corner in Walnut Hills and Knowlton's Corner in Northside might not look special now, but in their heyday they were streetcar transfer hubs thronging with commuters. http://news.kypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070609/NEWS02/706090318/1014
June 9, 200718 yr If we on the editorial board of The Post were controlling the levers of power, we'd tack a nickel or so onto the federal fuels tax and a penny or two onto the state fuels taxes and earmark all of it for transit. Too bad that's illegal under Ohio's constitution. Someone should tell them you can't spend Ohio gas taxes for anything other roads and highways. However.... An oil company profits tax is another matter. Ohio's constitution is silent on that. See the following link for what Pennsylvania's governor is trying to do: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_509185.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 9, 200718 yr ^ That's pretty sad. I would like to see toll roads. I'm sure you could use profits from that to help pay for an intercity and regional system. I mean, our tax dollars are paying for new/upgrading hwy's and interstates, whereas PA is paying off new interstate construction and tunnels within a few years time because of their toll roads (BTW, they have a lot).
June 9, 200718 yr I am in favor of bringing back the "Horse-Car" That would be sweet! It would cost alot less too.
June 22, 200717 yr I wrote this letter in response to a Cincinnati Post reader's misconceptions about how a streetcar works in the urban environment. I'm submitting it to UrbanOhio knowing that you'll be confronted with some of the same questions sooner or later. Have a nice weekend, John Schneider [Letter follows] In her June 20th letter, Carolyn R. Shine suggests that the planned Downtown Cincinnati Streetcar will block traffic, be awkward or hazardous for passengers' boarding and paying fares, and that trolley buses -- smaller, rougher-riding versions of what we already have -- are a superior solution. Nothing could be further from the truth. Modern streetcars travel in the same lanes the cars do, so if you can run a bus on a downtown street, you can just as easily run a streetcar. Because they have six -- six! -- doors for boarding and de-boarding passengers, modern streetcars hold up traffic less than a bus which has a single door for passengers to board. With three doors on each side, a modern streetcar can dock on either side of the street, unlike a bus which must always dock on the right side of the street - often delaying traffic in the lane behind it wanting to turn right. Four of the streetcar's doors are extra-wide, double-doors at curb height, so two or three passengers can enter through each door at the same time. These barrier-free doors enable a passenger in a wheelchair or a motorized scooter to board in seconds compared to as long as five minutes on a bus. And because the ride is so smooth, disabled passengers on the streetcar don't have to be strapped-in by the driver as they do on a bus. This barrier-free boarding is also a boon for parents with strollers, cyclists, and shoppers with carts or travelers with wheeled luggage. Fare payment is simple. Everyone boards and pays their fares at machines hanging on the wall of the streetcar, unlike a bus where fare-payment must be made one passenger at a time. This can be distracting to the driver and hazardous for the passenger if the bus accelerates or decelerates rapidly while the passenger is standing in the aisle, fumbling for coins. Oh, and the overhead wires of a modern streetcar are barely visible, and they don't spark like the streetcar relics from the 1920's. But don't take my word for it. Go to to see a short video about how a modern streetcar works in Portland, Oregon. Turn up the sound on your computer to see how quiet it is. And then just imagine how such a system could rejuvenate downtown Cincinnati, Over-the Rhine, uptown, the East End and eventually downtown Kentucky too -- new developments relieved of their parking burden, more walkers patronizing street-level retail that no longer has to be subsidized, more eyes on the street to combat crime. This could happen here, just as surely as it is happening in many American cities today. John Schneider Downtown
June 22, 200717 yr I really hope this gets built. This would be a huge plus for Downtown Cincy and for mass transit efforts throught the metro area. I really believe once people see this type of mass transit in action they will be more open to other mass transit projects.
June 22, 200717 yr ^You don't need to hope...this WILL get built, and I predict sooner rather than later.
June 22, 200717 yr That's the way I see it too. It seems like pretty much all who have the say-so are on board with getting this thing started.
June 22, 200717 yr Maybe I've missed it, but where is Mayor Mallory on this issue? He was always fairly pro-rail when he was an State Senator.
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